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Lip Man 1
05-27-2006, 10:54 PM
From tonight's Tribune:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060527soxbrite,1,7737026.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Lip

beckett21
05-27-2006, 11:03 PM
I hope not.

As much as I like Mackowiak, he is not a centerfielder by any stretch of the imagination. That's not his fault, but he just isn't in my uneducated opinion.

Ozuna and Gload in the OF is an even scarier proposition.

Anderson needs to get his bat going, no question. But the Sox desperately need his glove out there.

Lip Man 1
05-27-2006, 11:09 PM
Beck:

Maybe we need to shift attention from bullpen trades to an outfielder deal. I don't know if any CF'ers may be available besides Hunter and the Twins won't trade him to us.

Lip

beckett21
05-27-2006, 11:14 PM
Beck:

Maybe we need to shift attention from bullpen trades to an outfielder deal. I don't know if any CF'ers may be available besides Hunter and the Twins won't trade him to us.

Lip

I realize that at some point the Sox may have to admit that Anderson is not ready offensively. However, they have been able to carry his lack of offense so far. Doesn't excuse the anemic performance, but nonetheless that's the fact.

Given the fact that the defense is what has been letting us down lately, I would sure hate to de-emphasize that for a little more production out of the #9 spot in the order.

If KW can get Andruw Jones here, great. Since I don't really see that happening, I'll pass on the Kenny Lofton types who will most likely be available instead.

oeo
05-27-2006, 11:19 PM
I hope not.

As much as I like Mackowiak, he is not a centerfielder by any stretch of the imagination. That's not his fault, but he just isn't in my uneducated opinion.

Ozuna and Gload in the OF is an even scarier proposition.

Anderson needs to get his bat going, no question. But the Sox desperately need his glove out there.
Exactly, and I'm not ready to give up on Anderson. I can tell you one thing, Anderson could have given a much better at-bat than Mackowiak had with the bases loaded and 1 out. He has all the tools to be a great MLB player. If it takes more AB's in AAA to get him to that level, okay...but he's already shown that he can hit in AAA.

Banix12
05-27-2006, 11:19 PM
Sometimes a trip to the minors can really help out. I remember when Rowand got sent down in 2003. After he came back he started to go on a tear.

He has talent and I believe he'll get it together eventually but I don't blame the the sox for considering this.

I think I would like the sox to look into finding an extra backup OF who can play a really good defensive centerfield, and at least hit decently if they do decide to send him down though.

Cuck the Fubs
05-27-2006, 11:21 PM
I wonder how long before Mr. Josh Fields is issued an outfielders glove down at AAA?

I'd rather not see Brian go anywhere, cause he's the only "real" CF we have right now.

TomParrish79
05-27-2006, 11:21 PM
How Gload remains on the roster is a mystery to me. Even if he played everyday he would be mediocre at best.

BA is good for defense and hopefully his bat will come around. I like Rob's bat but not his defense..

I dunno why i even posted I have nothing to add

oeo
05-27-2006, 11:23 PM
I wonder how long before Mr. Josh Fields is issued an outfielders glove down at AAA?

I'd rather not see Brian go anywhere, cause he's the only "real" CF we have right now.

I can't see Fields playing CF, if anything he'd play LF. And we already have a leftfielder. If Crede plans on staying here, and Fields can get the Sox a lot of talent, it wouldn't hurt me to see him go.

slobes
05-27-2006, 11:45 PM
That article suggests Anderson going back down to AAA, which i really don't see at the moment. It's not like every MLB team has a super strong bat from 1-9, so can the Sox afford to switch off Anderson and Mack at CF? No doubt that Anderson is very solid defensively.

JB98
05-27-2006, 11:51 PM
How Gload remains on the roster is a mystery to me. Even if he played everyday he would be mediocre at best.

BA is good for defense and hopefully his bat will come around. I like Rob's bat but not his defense..

I dunno why i even posted I have nothing to add

Gload is being kept around as insurance for Thome. As you know, our fingers are crossed, hoping we can get 500 ABs out of Jim this year. As long as Thome is healthy, Gload is useless. Unfortunately, Ross is out of options, and we risk losing him if we send him down.

That roster spot would be put to better use by an experienced, quality defensive OF, preferably one that bats right-handed. That would help us cover the weakness that is Brian Anderson. Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen, so the best thing we can hope for is for BA to pull it together. I don't know if this guy is ready for the challenge. I'm losing patience. Evidently, so are the Sox.

SOXSINCE'70
05-27-2006, 11:52 PM
I don't know if any CF'ers may be available besides Hunter and the Twins won't trade him to us.

Lip

I hear Juan Pierre might be available.:roflmao: :roflmao:

SoxFan64
05-27-2006, 11:59 PM
If BA goes down Ozzie indicated that he wants another pitcher. And if we think Mack is not a CF nor is Pods then we will need to bring one up from the minors or acquire one. That means someone else also has to go down or be waived and that person could very well be Gload.

Who knows maybe we will bring back ........ Group Four Member ........

:weewillie

oeo
05-28-2006, 12:02 AM
If BA goes down Ozzie indicated that he wants another pitcher. And if we think Mack is not a CF nor is Pods then we will need to bring one up from the minors or acquire one. That means someone else also has to go down or be waived and that person could very well be Gload.

Who knows maybe we will bring back ........ Group Four Member ........

:weewillie

For what? We don't need anymore infielders.

JB98
05-28-2006, 12:04 AM
If BA goes down Ozzie indicated that he wants another pitcher. And if we think Mack is not a CF nor is Pods then we will need to bring one up from the minors or acquire one. That means someone else also has to go down or be waived and that person could very well be Gload.

Who knows maybe we will bring back ........ Group Four Member ........

:weewillie


LOL. Willie has burned his bridges. He won't be back. I don't understand why Guillen wants another pitcher. As it stands, I don't think McCarthy is getting enough work. Our starters go deep into games consistently.

Gload is a logical choice to take a hike. He is wasting space right now. But unless the organization feels Rogowski could step in should Thome (or Konerko) get injured, I figure Ross will hang around.

SoxFan64
05-28-2006, 12:07 AM
Ok so maybe not Harris since we already have enough left hand bats but I know of at least one person who would LOVE to see Willie back ......

California Sox
05-28-2006, 12:09 AM
It's probably in Anderson's best interest to get 100 ABs in AAA right now, but Mack is brutal out there in center. I wonder about shifting Pods back to CF for a while. It's not like he's good out there, I just refuse to believe he's worse than Mack. Man, we've traded away a lot of CFs recently. I hope the one we kept will come around because unless Sweeney can play it, there is no one else.

Trav
05-28-2006, 12:10 AM
I realize that at some point the Sox may have to admit that Anderson is not ready offensively. However, they have been able to carry his lack of offense so far. Doesn't excuse the anemic performance, but nonetheless that's the fact.

Given the fact that the defense is what has been letting us down lately, I would sure hate to de-emphasize that for a little more production out of the #9 spot in the order.

If KW can get Andruw Jones here, great. Since I don't really see that happening, I'll pass on the Kenny Lofton types who will most likely be available instead.

I agree with everything that you have said in this thread Beckett. I don't see the upside in sending down our top defensive CF for an arm out of the pen. How long did Ventura slump before he started hitting his rookie year?

The article also states Guillen wants a right handed bat because of the LHP that our division rivals have. That's another strike against Gload. Sending him down may risk loosing him but 1B is an easier spot to fill than CF.

KW is really in a bind.

HotelWhiteSox
05-28-2006, 01:03 AM
I think it would be stupid to send him down, it's iffy since Mackowiak is a better offensive option, but it's bad enough that Anderson is a rookie, and worse that he doesn't get regular at bats, so I think it's unfair to just look at his numbers

Credefan21
05-28-2006, 01:06 AM
How did Willie burn his bridges? I guess i didn't hear about this.

lumpyspun
05-28-2006, 01:44 AM
How did Willie burn his bridges? I guess i didn't hear about this.

Without digging up the articles, he basically said a few weeks ago that he didn't feel like he got any respect. When he scored the winning run in Game 4, he said Ozzie never told him "good job". I think it also goes back to the comment Ozzie made last year that Jackie Robinson was the only good player that ever came out of Cairo, GA, which is Willie's hometown too.

Banix12
05-28-2006, 01:56 AM
I think it would be stupid to send him down, it's iffy since Mackowiak is a better offensive option, but it's bad enough that Anderson is a rookie, and worse that he doesn't get regular at bats, so I think it's unfair to just look at his numbers

Anderson didn't stop getting regular at bats until a few weeks ago and even with that he gets a fair amount.

I don't think it's totally about the numbers, as Ozzie said in the article he isn't even giving a lot of good ABs right now. So he sees it almost as his approach right now is flawed.

A couple weeks in the minors where he could get his head straight in a low pressure environment might not be the worst thing. Like I stated earlier, it helped Rowand out.

The defense is the only issue leads me to want him to stay. I would hope that if he were sent down they would at least look into finding a solid defensive backup for close and late situations.

tweek57
05-28-2006, 01:58 AM
It's probably in Anderson's best interest to get 100 ABs in AAA right now, but Mack is brutal out there in center. I wonder about shifting Pods back to CF for a while. It's not like he's good out there, I just refuse to believe he's worse than Mack. Man, we've traded away a lot of CFs recently. I hope the one we kept will come around because unless Sweeney can play it, there is no one else.
Yes, Pods is worse in CF than Mackowiak, his only saving grace is his closing speed and even that isn't good enough to make up for the pathetic reads he gets in CF. I watched a ton of Brewers games while Pods was there and he was always a mediocre defensive CF. If Pods is moved to CF and Ozuna/Gload is plugged in to LF this team will fall off big time. The amazing team defense that the Sox display is one of the main reasons why they win the way they do and contributes big time to the success of the pitching.

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 01:59 AM
This article is a steaming pile of crap. Gonzalez is reading tea leaves again. The entire article is nothing but a concoction straight out of his own imagination (which brings me back to my first sentence).

Read the article carefully, looking for any semblence of a factual basis. You won't find one. It's completely speculative. First he says Anderson might be sent down. But he "might have gained a temporary reprieve by hitting a line single off Jason Frasor leading off the 11th inning Saturday to snap an 0-for-13 slump". What??? They'd change their minds based on ONE AT BAT??? Pull-eeeze.

tweek57
05-28-2006, 02:00 AM
I think I would like the sox to look into finding an extra backup OF who can play a really good defensive centerfield, and at least hit decently if they do decide to send him down though.
All the players out there that fit this description are starting CF for teams. There aren't a lot of "real good densive centerfielders" in baseball to begin with let alone someone who is just rotting on somone's bench.

MikeLove
05-28-2006, 02:06 AM
for whatever reason, i feel a LOT better when anderson is in center

oeo
05-28-2006, 02:08 AM
I think he just needs some time to clear his head. Maybe he should have just taken the suspension. Look at Crede last year, who started out his mediocre self, but once he came back from his injury he became the hottest bat we had.

I think he's thinking too much and there's too much going through his head right now. I mean, look how well he did in spring training...then brought that into the first game of the season. Something just isn't right mentally right now, I hope he can pull it together and fast.

samram
05-28-2006, 02:18 AM
for whatever reason, i feel a LOT better when anderson is in center

Yeah, same here. Plus, with the team not hitting worth a damn right now, I say prevent as many runs as possible.

The big problem for BA is they thought that Uribe would be good enough in the 8 hole to cover him in the 9 hole, but that hasn't been nearly the case. This has put extra pressure on BA to produce, which wasn't really what the Sox wanted going into the season. The trouble against LHPs isn't helping this either.

CLR01
05-28-2006, 02:31 AM
I've heard an interview with Griffey and he sad he wouldn't mind coming to the South Side. Maybe Kenny can get on the phone and swing a deal. Can you imaging that Lineup!

Pods
Iguchi
Thome
Konerko
Griffey
Dye
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Maybe we can get a deal for Tejada too!

:o::o::o:





:D:

Banix12
05-28-2006, 02:42 AM
All the players out there that fit this description are starting CF for teams. There aren't a lot of "real good densive centerfielders" in baseball to begin with let alone someone who is just rotting on somone's bench.

The guy I thought the sox should have looked at in the preseason as a backup was Tike Redman but he's now a minor leaguer with the Tigers so good luck getting him.

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 03:43 AM
my system keeps double posting.

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 03:44 AM
I know he fresh off an injury but would the DRays cheaply part with Rocco Baldelli since they have about 500 outfielders running around the organization?

Chisox003
05-28-2006, 03:44 AM
I know he fresh off an injury but would the DRays cheaply part with Rocco Baldelli since they have about 500 outfielders running around the organization?
Na, he's been working at first base.

He's a keeper, and they'd ask for a TON in return.

Beautox
05-28-2006, 04:38 AM
I've heard an interview with Griffey and he sad he wouldn't mind coming to the South Side. Maybe Kenny can get on the phone and swing a deal. Can you imaging that Lineup!

Pods
Iguchi
Thome
Konerko
Griffey
Dye
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Maybe we can get a deal for Tejada too!

:o::o::o:





:D:

wasn't that supposed to be in teal ? :?:

anyways i wouldn't want Griffey, hes a constant injury risk, the reds are in contention and it would cost way too much.

My suggestion is Corey Patterson, as I've said in the "Corey Patterson" thread, if Anderson can't pick it up at the plate we need a complete CF. Mackowiak is tearing the cover off the ball as we speak but he is the definition of a streaky hitter. Lucky for us hes on a streak, but hes bad in CF, Ozuna bad. Patterson may not take the best reads on a ball but his make up speed is ridiculous and hes got a cannon, hes defiantly a + CF. I think he could handle the 8 spot in the batting order and Juan wouldn't give so many ABs away. Also it would be the second coming of the top of the order Patterson has 15SB/1CS.

What would it take to get him? my guess pitching prospects along the lines of: Charlie Haeger, Tyler Lumsden and Lucas Harrell. The reason being FA pitching is at an absurd price and i don't think the O's are going to attract marquee FA talent case and point Paul Konerko. If the O's are going to contend its going to have come from within, same with the D-Rays. Now some here have suggested the time has passed for the Corey Patterson love train but i disagree, hindsight is 20/20 but if we expect to make another post season run we will need a complete CF. Personally i thought the reason of having minor league depth was to make the big club better maybe I'm crazy. Anderson could go down get it togeather and possibly in the future we could see an outfield of Patterson in RF, Anderson in CF, and ??? in LF.

anyways just my $0.02

Mr. White Sox
05-28-2006, 05:35 AM
Don't send Anderson down. Please. Uribe has been absolutely abysmal offensively, and nobody is talking about replacing him with Cintron or Ozuna. Why? Streakiness. Defense. Previous seasons. (Well, also Cintron's .267 OBP) If Uribe continues to slump for another month, then maybe a change is necessary. But as of now, the Sox offense can (USUALLY) handle Uribe slumping.

Anderson is slumping right now, no question. He's also a rookie who is seeing many pitchers for the first time in his career. He can hit a fastball, and he can hit mistakes. HE WILL HIT .240-.250 THIS YEAR! That is, if he stays up. Plus, his defense is so important to this club right now considering there is no legitimate backup OF that can replace him in CF. Mackowiak has been showing that in spades as of late.

And Corey Patterson? He's the starting CF in Baltimore now, I think, and besides the fact that he sucks he's worth too much now because of his current production.

RealMenWearBlack
05-28-2006, 05:51 AM
Corey Patterson may be a good option, but does anyone think the Twins would be willing to part with Shannon Stewart and would he be able to play CF? Kenny Lofton is doing well this year, but the Dodgers are currently in second place in the NL West. Maybe we should get Joe Borchard back.

Optipessimism
05-28-2006, 06:54 AM
I've heard an interview with Griffey and he sad he wouldn't mind coming to the South Side. Maybe Kenny can get on the phone and swing a deal. Can you imaging that Lineup!

Pods
Iguchi
Thome
Konerko
Griffey
Dye
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Maybe we can get a deal for Tejada too!

:o::o::o:





:D:

If we're going to talk about making moves that probably won't happen, I'd love to see KW pick up Jack Wilson from the Pirates. His D is comparable to Juan (great range, great arm, good hands), he's a much better hitter, and Pitt just signed him to a very reasonable extension through 2009.

Normally, on any other team, a player like Wilson wouldn't be available. But, it's the Pirates here. I wonder if we'd have enough to pry him away? Then we could send Uribe packing and live with Anderson's lack of production until he (hopefully) turns it around.

Where's Bobby Hill when you need him?

Optipessimism
05-28-2006, 07:00 AM
Corey Patterson may be a good option, but does anyone think the Twins would be willing to part with Shannon Stewart and would he be able to play CF? Kenny Lofton is doing well this year, but the Dodgers are currently in second place in the NL West. Maybe we should get Joe Borchard back.

Other than Hunter there aren't really any options out there for a CF.

IMO, since it hurts to have a both CF and a SS who are not producing, and since it also hurts to upgrade the offense and at the same time downgrade the defense, it makes more sense to look at upgrading SS than CF.

Besides my dream scenario of Jack Wilson in a Sox uniform turning double plays and hitting second for the repeating World Champs, the Sox have more options. There are Omar Vizquel and Cesar Izturis who should come cheaply given their contracts, and we also have Cintron sitting on our bench. I'd rather see something like that happen than put Mackowiak or Pods in CF all the time (yuck).

wassagstdu
05-28-2006, 08:22 AM
Anderson ... has all the tools to be a great MLB player.

Who was it that said "Don't give me tools, give me players?"

.

wassagstdu
05-28-2006, 08:31 AM
I think he's thinking too much and there's too much going through his head right now. I mean, look how well he did in spring training...then brought that into the first game of the season. Something just isn't right mentally right now, I hope he can pull it together and fast.

Wasn't he booed early on by some yahoos in CF for not being Aaron Rowand? Thanks a lot "fans!"

.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2006, 08:43 AM
The Sox need an everyday centerfielder far more than any relief pitcher. Mackowiak is NOT the answer.

I can't help but note Anderson has a 5-game suspension to serve, and Ozzie has been standing out at third base while Sox bats go AWOL the last two games. And still there are 20 percent of the voters on the main page poll who still think scheduling those punks from the North Side makes any sense at all to a team with championship aspirations like the Sox. Yea, sure... scheduling the Cubs makes an easy opponent!
:kukoo:

There is no accounting for taste... or brains.
:o:

harwar
05-28-2006, 08:59 AM
First of all,its the tribune so i don't believe anything they say about the White Sox.
Also,Brian Anderson is the best pure center fielder that i've seen in quite a long time.He might not be hitting yet but a guy like that can save games by making plays that others might not.
The fact that Thome,Konerko,& Dye all stopped hitting at the same time is the big problem,since the botom of the order just can't seem to step up and carry the load.
Uribe did this same thing(really bad first half) a few years ago and he lit up the scoreboard the whole second half so i wouldn't give up on him just yet.
Finally,i watch a lot of games,including the red sox,and i can tell you that willie harris looks totally lost at the plate and i'm surprised that he is even in the majors.
If it were too easy to get through the season as the big winner then the feeling at the end,when we win it all,would be,i believe,diminished.
I feel that we will walk through the indians and the tigers and win both series.

SBSoxFan
05-28-2006, 09:31 AM
The Sox need an everyday centerfielder far more than any relief pitcher. Mackowiak is NOT the answer.

I can't help but note Anderson has a 5-game suspension to serve, and Ozzie has been standing out at third base while Sox bats go AWOL the last two games. And still there are 20 percent of the voters on the main page poll who still think scheduling those punks from the North Side makes any sense at all to a team with championship aspirations like the Sox. Yea, sure... scheduling the Cubs makes an easy opponent!
:kukoo:

There is no accounting for taste... or brains.
:o:

[semi-teal] I blame it all on Ozzie, actually Barrett. Once Ozzie is back in the dugout and Cora's back as third base coach, they'll be fine. [\semi-teal]

southside rocks
05-28-2006, 09:55 AM
Beck:

Maybe we need to shift attention from bullpen trades to an outfielder deal. I don't know if any CF'ers may be available besides Hunter and the Twins won't trade him to us.

Lip
A couple of weeks ago Joe Cowley, from the Sun-Times, was on a show on the Score and he said that he talked to some Minnesota writers when the Sox were up there, and they said that Hunter to the Sox was not an impossibility, as the Twins GM is one of the few who is willing to trade within the division.

There may be nothing to that, and who knows what the Twins would want from the Sox for Hunter, but Ozzie's always expressed a lot of liking for Torii, so maybe there is an outside chance.

Also, if BA goes to AAA, I don't think it will be for the rest of the season, unless his problems continue at that level (and that seems really unlikely). I think Ozzie and the Sox management are trying to make Anderson be the player they know he CAN be, by any means they have available to them. I like that the organization does that. But I also like that they don't give up on players, as they didn't give up on Crede and Rowand. (BTW, Rowand got a couple of standing O's on his return to the Phils lineup yesterday. He the man in Philly now!)

dickallen15
05-28-2006, 10:06 AM
A couple of weeks ago Joe Cowley, from the Sun-Times, was on a show on the Score and he said that he talked to some Minnesota writers when the Sox were up there, and they said that Hunter to the Sox was not an impossibility, as the Twins GM is one of the few who is willing to trade within the division.

There may be nothing to that, and who knows what the Twins would want from the Sox for Hunter, but Ozzie's always expressed a lot of liking for Torii, so maybe there is an outside chance.

Also, if BA goes to AAA, I don't think it will be for the rest of the season, unless his problems continue at that level (and that seems really unlikely). I think Ozzie and the Sox management are trying to make Anderson be the player they know he CAN be, by any means they have available to them. I like that the organization does that. But I also like that they don't give up on players, as they didn't give up on Crede and Rowand. (BTW, Rowand got a couple of standing O's on his return to the Phils lineup yesterday. He the man in Philly now!)
The Sox haven't made a trade within the AL Central since its been in existence. They last made a trade with Cleveland in 1990. The haven't made a trade with Detroit since they traded them Kenny Williams in 1989. They haven't made a trade with KC since dealing Floyd Bannister in 1987, and haven't traded with Minnesota since 1986. Hunter makes a ton of money, and would cost a lot of prospects. I really don't see it happening. KW should spend his resources on acquiring real pitching, not calling up gas cans from Charlotte.

Optipessimism
05-28-2006, 10:20 AM
wasn't that supposed to be in teal ? :?:

anyways i wouldn't want Griffey, hes a constant injury risk, the reds are in contention and it would cost way too much.

My suggestion is Corey Patterson, as I've said in the "Corey Patterson" thread, if Anderson can't pick it up at the plate we need a complete CF. Mackowiak is tearing the cover off the ball as we speak but he is the definition of a streaky hitter. Lucky for us hes on a streak, but hes bad in CF, Ozuna bad. Patterson may not take the best reads on a ball but his make up speed is ridiculous and hes got a cannon, hes defiantly a + CF. I think he could handle the 8 spot in the batting order and Juan wouldn't give so many ABs away. Also it would be the second coming of the top of the order Patterson has 15SB/1CS.



What would it take to get him? my guess pitching prospects along the lines of: Charlie Haeger, Tyler Lumsden and Lucas Harrell. The reason being FA pitching is at an absurd price and i don't think the O's are going to attract marquee FA talent case and point Paul Konerko. If the O's are going to contend its going to have come from within, same with the D-Rays. Now some here have suggested the time has passed for the Corey Patterson love train but i disagree, hindsight is 20/20 but if we expect to make another post season run we will need a complete CF. Personally i thought the reason of having minor league depth was to make the big club better maybe I'm crazy. Anderson could go down get it togeather and possibly in the future we could see an outfield of Patterson in RF, Anderson in CF, and ??? in LF.

anyways just my $0.02

Why would it make sense to trade prospects for a chance on Patterson when we could continue taking our chances with Brian? If KW makes a move for a position player he's going to target a veteran, not a headcase finally off to a good start about two years too late.

Griffey, being the injury risk he always is, is the only possible option outside of Toriii for CF unfortunately. Nobody else who could possibly be available (Gathright, Winn, Reed, Pierre, Payton, etc.) can do all of the following things: hit, make the plays in CF, and get the ball back in. With Griffey you don't know what you're going to get, and with Torii, well, why in the hell would KW trade his top prospects to the Twins?

I just don't see the Sox getting a CF.

**EDIT: I forgot about Mike Cameron, but I don't know if KW could add that much in salary.

tick53
05-28-2006, 10:22 AM
Rob is a great addition to the team, but Anderson WILL break out. I don't
want to give up on BA. He's the next Mickey Mantle!

RowanDye
05-28-2006, 10:31 AM
The Sox need an everyday centerfielder far more than any relief pitcher. Mackowiak is NOT the answer.

I can't help but note Anderson has a 5-game suspension to serve, and Ozzie has been standing out at third base while Sox bats go AWOL the last two games. And still there are 20 percent of the voters on the main page poll who still think scheduling those punks from the North Side makes any sense at all to a team with championship aspirations like the Sox. Yea, sure... scheduling the Cubs makes an easy opponent!
:kukoo:

There is no accounting for taste... or brains.
:o:

This sounds a little like a Flubsessed conspiracy theory to me.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2006, 10:38 AM
This sounds a little like a Flubsessed conspiracy theory to me.
This sounds like somebody who just had his intelligence questioned.

It ought to be.
:cool:

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 10:39 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...

http://circlechange.com/mlbb/photo/DErstad2.jpg

Darin Erstad. It makes perfect sense. He's always been the guy that KW has mentioned when discussing grinder types. We know KW loves him. We know of at least one attempt by KW to attempt to trade for Erstad. Usually when KW likes a player, he will continue to try to trade for that player. Well, now is KW's chance. Erstad is a free agent at the end of the year. The Angels are struggling and will be going young. They have a lot of prospects that are MLB ready. It's likely that Chone Figgins will find himself in CF next year as the Angels look to make room for Kendrick, Aybar, Wood, McPherson, Morales, Kotchman, etc. That means Erstad's time with the Angels is running out. Unless the return of Colon and the recently called up youngsters like Morales and Jered Weaver can spark a run for the Angels, it's extremely likely that they would listen to trades for Erstad.

Enter KW with a chance to acquire one of his favorites who can play CF a lot better than Mackowiak while giving Anderson some time to work out the kinks in the minors. We also wouldn't be locked into a long-term deal with Erstad so Anderson could still find himself the CF of the future. Hey Stoneman, Garland for Erstad again? :tongue:

And hey, there's always Griffey...:D:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2006, 10:52 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...

http://circlechange.com/mlbb/photo/DErstad2.jpg

Darin Erstad. It makes perfect sense. He's always been the guy that KW has mentioned when discussing grinder types. We know KW loves him. We know of at least one attempt by KW to attempt to trade for Erstad. Usually when KW likes a player, he will continue to try to trade for that player.....
Works for me.
:thumbsup:

It's a shame Brian Anderson's rookie stint with the Sox has to be be marred by some ridiculus bull**** that would do the WWE proud. Thankfully he figures to get another shot down the line.

SBSoxFan
05-28-2006, 11:01 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...



Darin Erstad.

Isn't there a major concern about Erstad's knees holding up in center?

beckett21
05-28-2006, 11:09 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...

http://circlechange.com/mlbb/photo/DErstad2.jpg

Darin Erstad. It makes perfect sense. He's always been the guy that KW has mentioned when discussing grinder types. We know KW loves him. We know of at least one attempt by KW to attempt to trade for Erstad. Usually when KW likes a player, he will continue to try to trade for that player. Well, now is KW's chance. Erstad is a free agent at the end of the year. The Angels are struggling and will be going young. They have a lot of prospects that are MLB ready. It's likely that Chone Figgins will find himself in CF next year as the Angels look to make room for Kendrick, Aybar, Wood, McPherson, Morales, Kotchman, etc. That means Erstad's time with the Angels is running out. Unless the return of Colon and the recently called up youngsters like Morales and Jered Weaver can spark a run for the Angels, it's extremely likely that they would listen to trades for Erstad.

Enter KW with a chance to acquire one of his favorites who can play CF a lot better than Mackowiak while giving Anderson some time to work out the kinks in the minors. We also wouldn't be locked into a long-term deal with Erstad so Anderson could still find himself the CF of the future. Hey Stoneman, Garland for Erstad again? :tongue:

And hey, there's always Griffey...:D:
I also really like the Erstad idea.

I'd hate to give up too much for him, but if BA can't cut it we need someone out there who can play a little defense in addition to their bat.

Stolen from another thread, but throw in Shields and we have a deal. :redneck

The converted infielders-turned-outfielders has been pretty ugly in the field so far. It would be nice to have another true OF on the roster. Gload, Mackowiak and Ozuna don't count in that regard. Paging Timo...:D:

Grzegorz
05-28-2006, 11:22 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...

Darin Erstad. It makes perfect sense. He's always been the guy that KW has mentioned when discussing grinder types.

Just say no to Erstad...

Last year during the playoffs he looked as if he was carrying a piano on his back on a play where he was thrown out at third.

The White Sox don't hit lefties well, neither does Erstad.

He hasn't run well in terms of stolen bases the last few years, he doesn't hit for power, and he doesn't throw well.

Unless Erstad is Lazarus, and I am not sure how one could know that, take a pass...

Daver
05-28-2006, 11:27 AM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?


:dunno:

beckett21
05-28-2006, 11:28 AM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?


:dunno:

It's only a page and a half for me. :redneck

Beer Can Chicken
05-28-2006, 11:30 AM
With our current defensive struggles, I have to think that KW over-rides Ozzie's opinion on this one. We really need BA patrolling CF. We don't have any other decent defensive OF options. Ozuna and Daddy Machs are fine for plug in OFs but I'll never feel comfortable with either one out there on a regular basis.
However, Ozzie isn't even really playing BA anymore, so what's the point of even keeping him on the roster? Traditionally, teams don't carry their super prospects on the MLB roster unless they intend on playing them on a regular basis. BA is losing some serious at-bats and I think that has to be addressed.

nasox
05-28-2006, 11:33 AM
Who was it that said "Don't give me tools, give me players?"

.

http://kellyanncollins.com/01-05-04-paris-hilton-club-sandwiches.jpg

"Why you such a playa hata?"

SBSoxFan
05-28-2006, 11:34 AM
However, Ozzie isn't even really playing BA anymore, so what's the point of even keeping him on the roster? Traditionally, teams don't carry their super prospects on the MLB roster unless they intend on playing them on a regular basis. BA is losing some serious at-bats and I think that has to be addressed.

Maybe they're trying to be like the cubs.

Grzegorz
05-28-2006, 11:36 AM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?

Look at it this way; four pages of posts dealing with baseball's first commandment:

Thou shall be strong up the middle.

itsnotrequired
05-28-2006, 11:40 AM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?


:dunno:

Exactly. When the other bats were hot, no one really cared if Anderson wasn't hitting well. Now the bats have gone a little cold and people are ready to jump on Anderson? Please. The guy plays amazing defense, gets paid peanuts and his bat WILL come around. As long as the other bats get the job done, I'll be happy with a .220 average.

beckett21
05-28-2006, 11:41 AM
Just say no to Erstad...

Last year during the playoffs he looked as if he was carrying a piano on his back on a play where he was thrown out at third.

The White Sox don't hit lefties well, neither does Erstad.

He hasn't run well in terms of stolen bases the last few years, he doesn't hit for power, and he doesn't throw well.

Unless Erstad is Lazarus, and I am not sure how one could know that, take a pass...
This is by no means meant as any offense towards Ross Gload, but I'd prefer to have Erstad on the bench over Gload any day for defensive purposes.

The comparison of the two in the outfield isn't even close. Erstad can also play gold-glove caliber 1B, so we would still have a viable backup for Konerko if needed.

Where do we sign? :tongue:

samram
05-28-2006, 11:44 AM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?


:dunno:

A number nine hitter who plays Gold Glove caliber defense at that.

Beer Can Chicken
05-28-2006, 11:45 AM
Exactly. When the other bats were hot, no one really cared if Anderson wasn't hitting well. Now the bats have gone a little cold and people are ready to jump on Anderson? Please. The guy plays amazing defense, gets paid peanuts and his bat WILL come around. As long as the other bats get the job done, I'll be happy with a .220 average.

Almost all of the posts in this thread are in defense of Brian Anderson. We are simply responding to the Sunday articles in both major Chicago newspapers that are reporting Ozzie is about to send him down to the minors.

jongarlandlover
05-28-2006, 11:48 AM
A number nine hitter who plays Gold Glove caliber defense at that.

exactly. the sox have always said that BA's here for his defense, not his offense. sending him down to AAA would just ruin his confidence.

beckett21
05-28-2006, 11:50 AM
Almost all of the posts in this thread are in defense of Brian Anderson. We are simply responding to the Sunday articles in both major Chicago newspapers that are reporting Ozzie is about to send him down to the minors.

I'm definitely in support of BA. I'd like to continue to see him work things out at this level.

That being said, if they do honestly feel the need to make a move there is no one else on the current roster whom I would feel comfortable with patrolling CF for an extended period of time.

tweek57
05-28-2006, 11:51 AM
So what again would Erstad bring to the White Sox? A horrible $8.5M salary? Speed similar to that of Joe Crede in CF? His obvious decline in defense? The fact that he is constantly injured? How about the fact that he's injured now, he's been on the DL since May 1st and was just given another cortisone shot for his ankle the other day and *gasp* he could be done for the year.

Beer Can Chicken
05-28-2006, 11:55 AM
I'm definitely in support of BA. I'd like to continue to see him work things out at this level.

That being said, if they do honestly feel the need to make a move there is no one else on the current roster whom I would feel comfortable with patrolling CF for an extended period of time.

I feel exactly the same way. In fact, I think he should be playing alot more than he has been. He's essentially become a bench player for us. Starting in 1-2 games a week isn't going to him the experience or confidence that he needs to develop.

beckett21
05-28-2006, 11:55 AM
So what again would Erstad bring to the White Sox? A horrible $8.5M salary? Speed similar to that of Joe Crede in CF? His obvious decline in defense? The fact that he is constantly injured? How about the fact that he's injured now, he's been on the DL since May 1st and was just given another cortisone shot for his ankle the other day and *gasp* he could be done for the year.

I would expect KW would get creative in the salary aspect and hopefully get the Angels to pay half of that salary to take him off of their hands, especially given the injury history.

Speaking of injuries, that is a good point. I'd favor bringing him in as a stopgap/bench player, not as a regular. If he can't pass a physical then it's a moot point because he won't be coming here anyway.

I'd still much rather have BA in center. But Erstad would bring more off the bench overall than Gload, assuming health of course.

Grzegorz
05-28-2006, 11:57 AM
Almost all of the posts in this thread are in defense of Brian Anderson. We are simply responding to the Sunday articles in both major Chicago newspapers that are reporting Ozzie is about to send him down to the minors.

I just finished reading that article and the replacements mentioned are: Mackowiak, Gload, or Ozuna.

On the job training for a CF'er on a championship caliber team is not an option.

Every team knows/assumes we're looking for a CF; the White Sox are not dealing from a position of strength.

Heaven help us if Erstad is the only replacement. One has to ask themselves what cost is involved to obtain Erstad?

I'd rather run Cintron out at SS for a while giving Uribe a breather and live or die with Anderson in CF.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 12:04 PM
exactly. the sox have always said that BA's here for his defense, not his offense. sending him down to AAA would just ruin his confidence.

And keeping him in the majors to hit .171 wouldn't? If anything, a trip to the minors might help his confidence.

jabrch
05-28-2006, 12:06 PM
That's silly. People were calling for Crede's head for years also - but we stuck with him because management believed he'd be a cornerstone for years to come. Same with BA. Unless we are able to make a HUGE move to get better there, I don't want to dicker with him.

Chips
05-28-2006, 12:11 PM
Exactly, and I'm not ready to give up on Anderson. I can tell you one thing, Anderson could have given a much better at-bat than Mackowiak had with the bases loaded and 1 out. He has all the tools to be a great MLB player. If it takes more AB's in AAA to get him to that level, okay...but he's already shown that he can hit in AAA.

Anderson has had more than a few chances with the bases juiced this year and he hasn't done much, he struck out twice in the same game earlier this year.

But I would still keep him up.

Beer Can Chicken
05-28-2006, 12:14 PM
And keeping him in the majors to hit .171 wouldn't? If anything, a trip to the minors might help his confidence.

And he's only had 7 at-bats since May 19th. IMO thats counter productive. If he isnt going to play (he's not in today's line-up either), I dont see why they would keep him up.

LauraJ14
05-28-2006, 12:15 PM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?


:dunno:

Can we get 5 pages on the how awful Juan Uribe has been lately?
Cost the Sox at least 2 games with his defense in the last week, and where's the hitting?
How come there is no talk of him sitting on the bench for awhile?

Grzegorz
05-28-2006, 12:15 PM
I am hoping that his at bat yesterday is the start of something good. Durocher stuck it out with Mays and it paid off. Stengel sent Mantle to the minors to get his confidence back and that worked too.

No, Anderson is not Mays or Mantle but Durocher/Stengel laid out the two philosophies.

The Giants let Mays play; the Giants caught fire in August after Mays learned his chops.

The Yankees were perennially champions and could afford to replace Mantle in RF internally; the White Sox are a world champion caliber team that cannot afford to replace Anderson internally.

If the White Sox find themselves going outside the organization for a replacement to Anderson it is going to cost; the question is how much?

INSox56
05-28-2006, 12:15 PM
I don't understand why no one's talking about Uribe besides "oh he'll come around". News flash, it's pretty close to June everybody. Two throwaway errors by Uribe on easy double plays have caused losses...Sunday Cubs and yesterday. Not for that run we probably could have held on. Not to mention the wonderful groundout after bases were loaded with ONE OUT. Blame Mackowiak's swinging at two BAD pitches before that also if you want. Either way, it was kinda funny to say "oh Uribe, he's hilarious swinging away"...I think it's getting old and he NEEDS to get his act together.

starboy0
05-28-2006, 12:20 PM
I really like Anderson out in center. I still think his bat will come around.

beckett21
05-28-2006, 12:20 PM
I don't understand why no one's talking about Uribe besides "oh he'll come around". News flash, it's pretty close to June everybody. Two throwaway errors by Uribe on easy double plays have caused losses...Sunday Cubs and yesterday. Not for that run we probably could have held on. Not to mention the wonderful groundout after bases were loaded with ONE OUT. Blame Mackowiak's swinging at two BAD pitches before that also if you want. Either way, it was kinda funny to say "oh Uribe, he's hilarious swinging away"...I think it's getting old and he NEEDS to get his act together.
If Mackowiak (or ANDERSON) makes that easy play in CF yesterday, the Sox don't need Uribe to turn the DP.

I have never played SS, but making an off-balance throw with a guy barreling into you at second base doesn't look like a routine play to me. I'm willing to give Juan the benefit of the doubt because historically his defense is stellar.

*edit--not to mention the fact that Konerko should have scooped that ball last week anyway.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 12:21 PM
So what again would Erstad bring to the White Sox? A horrible $8.5M salary? Speed similar to that of Joe Crede in CF? His obvious decline in defense? The fact that he is constantly injured? How about the fact that he's injured now, he's been on the DL since May 1st and was just given another cortisone shot for his ankle the other day and *gasp* he could be done for the year.

We wouldn't be paying for his full salary. By the time the Angels would trade Erstad (assuming he's healthy), it would be less than half of his salary.

As for the cortisone shot, at the time of my post I didn't see that article like you did. Obviously if he is done for the year then you can scrap that idea. But if the shot works and he is able to come back, he's still a defensive upgrade over Mackowiak and an offensive upgrade over BA at this point. Like I said before, Erstad is a free agent at the end of the year, so we're simply talking about a stopgap here, not someone for the future.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 12:24 PM
I don't understand why no one's talking about Uribe besides "oh he'll come around". News flash, it's pretty close to June everybody. Two throwaway errors by Uribe on easy double plays have caused losses...Sunday Cubs and yesterday. Not for that run we probably could have held on. Not to mention the wonderful groundout after bases were loaded with ONE OUT. Blame Mackowiak's swinging at two BAD pitches before that also if you want. Either way, it was kinda funny to say "oh Uribe, he's hilarious swinging away"...I think it's getting old and he NEEDS to get his act together.

No one is talking about Uribe because proven players get the benefit of the doubt. Uribe has a history of at least being able to hit his weight while playing gold glove defense.

INSox56
05-28-2006, 12:26 PM
No one is talking about Uribe because proven players get the benefit of the doubt. Uribe has a history of at least being able to hit his weight while playing gold glove defense.

Oh point taken. I agree he gets the benefit of the doubt...but the benefit of the doubt is running out of steam at this point. It's June for christ sake. He LED THE LEAGUE last year in productive ABs. I'd say he and anderson are right up there as the worst situational hitters on our team right now. I just assume a wasted AB when they're up anymore.

voodoochile
05-28-2006, 12:27 PM
That's silly. People were calling for Crede's head for years also - but we stuck with him because management believed he'd be a cornerstone for years to come. Same with BA. Unless we are able to make a HUGE move to get better there, I don't want to dicker with him.

Well the good news is the Sox have some attractive trade bait to offer. Fields, Anderson, Sweeney, Owens and even McCarthy/Garland all have significant trade value and all have at least some redundancy in the organization. One of the pitchers and one or two of the position players is plenty to offer to land a serious two way player in return.

I know I will hear it from various minor league gurus how trading this guy or that guy is not in the best interests, but package a couple of those guys up together and presto, you've got a major league CF and some bullpen help from a team going nowhere or looking to build for the future.

Don't be afraid to play for today. With 6 SP signed for the next few years, there is room to take a shot at a major upgrade at a position slot.

I do agree that if Anderson isn't traded, he should get his chances to play on this level. If he needs a break mentally, take the suspension now and let him work with Walker for the time he isn't playing.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2006, 12:51 PM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?


:dunno:
Well you know me, Dave. You can never have enough pitching -- unless we're talking upgrading an everyday player.
:redneck

If the Sox upgrade at CF (Erstad or otherwise), the new Sox #9 hitter is the same #9 hitter from last year: Juan Uribe.

Uribe would look awfully good doing his thing at the bottom of the order -- just like last year. Fix two problems with one move.

Just do it, Kenny.
:thumbsup:

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 01:07 PM
Erstad and Hunter are not worth the money they get paid. I'm all for leaving Anderson out there however if they are going to send him down then Rob is not the everyday answer out there. Here is a list of possibilities:

Wily Mo Pena-Brutal defense, offense could be product of Cincy
Torii Hunter- grossly overpaid, great defense
Shannon Stewart- Currently on disabled list type player kenny likes
Ichiro- Cost an arm and leg
Abreu- cost a little bit but not as much others (Delucci backing him up)
Pierre- NO
Griffey- Won't be available yet maybe in month or so.
Cameron- Like Hunter expensive but good glove
Winn- solid on offense and defense plus not that pricey.

jongarlandlover
05-28-2006, 01:13 PM
And keeping him in the majors to hit .171 wouldn't? If anything, a trip to the minors might help his confidence.

But sending him down might make him think that they don't have enough confidence in him to say he could play in the majors.

santo=dorf
05-28-2006, 01:14 PM
Erstad is older, even more injury prone, and is just not worth the money he is getting. This season his OBP is .279 which is very comparble to Anderson's .276.

Just for ****s and giggles, let's remove his obvious fluke 2000 season from his career line
Currently it is .287/.341/.416
Without 2000 it is .277/.333/.398

He's just not very good.

santo=dorf
05-28-2006, 01:17 PM
Winn- solid on offense and defense plus not that pricey.
:?:


Feb. 28, 2006 - 6:40 pm et


Giants agreed to terms with outfielder Randy Winn on a three-year, $23.25 million contract extension through 2009.
Ouch. Winn, already due $5 million this year, gets a $3 million signing bonus and salaries of $4 million in 2007, $8 million in 2008 and $8.25 million in 2009. Considering that Winn will likely be back in an outfield corner for at least the second half of the deal, he has the potential to be quite a liability at those salaries. The 31-year-old Winn is a career .288/.346/.425 hitter. Richard Hidalgo, who is a year younger than Winn and just signed a minor league deal, is at .269/.345/.490 in his career.

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 01:18 PM
:?:


Feb. 28, 2006 - 6:40 pm et


Giants agreed to terms with outfielder Randy Winn on a three-year, $23.25 million contract extension through 2009.
Ouch. Winn, already due $5 million this year, gets a $3 million signing bonus and salaries of $4 million in 2007, $8 million in 2008 and $8.25 million in 2009. Considering that Winn will likely be back in an outfield corner for at least the second half of the deal, he has the potential to be quite a liability at those salaries. The 31-year-old Winn is a career .288/.346/.425 hitter. Richard Hidalgo, who is a year younger than Winn and just signed a minor league deal, is at .269/.345/.490 in his career.
AHHH didn't know thanks for the information. I guess there goes my pick for CF, damn you contract extension

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 01:23 PM
Realistically with Delucci in Philadelphia having the ability to hit really well in that stadium, what would it take to get Abreu? I know everyone loves the prospects we have but if you look around the league how many of our "can't miss prospects" have really panned out like expected? Sure some have become nice players but not what we expect. Would a 3 man combination out of Sweeney, Fields (3B), Haegar, Liotta, Broadway work for Philadelphia and the WSOX? Don't crucify me for asking just curious.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 01:24 PM
Realistically with Delucci in Philadelphia having the ability to hit really well in that stadium, what would it take to get Abreu? I know everyone loves the prospects we have but if you look around the league how many of our "can't miss prospects" have really panned out like expected? Sure some have become nice players but not what we expect. Would a 3 man combination out of Sweeney, Fields (3B), Haegar, Liotta, Broadway work for Philadelphia and the WSOX? Don't crucify me for asking just curious.
Bobby Abreu can't play centerfield.

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 01:26 PM
Bobby Abreu can't play centerfield.
Could he play left if we shift Scotty to CF?

samram
05-28-2006, 01:33 PM
Could he play left if we shift Scotty to CF?

Pods can barely play left- you don't want him in CF.

TheOldRoman
05-28-2006, 01:37 PM
Bobby Abreu can't play centerfield.
Abreu played center in the WBC. From what I saw, he was serviceable. I think he would be at least as good in CF as Podsednik would.

santo=dorf
05-28-2006, 01:39 PM
Uribe with another muff bunt. :angry:

Can we get Tejada to replace him?

More on Erstad:
May. 28, 2006 - 10:35 am et

Darin Erstad (ankle) had another cortisone shot in his ankle on Friday and is still a long ways from being activated from the disabled list.
Erstad's ankle flared up while he was running the bases on Wednesday. He won't do any baseball activities for at least the next week. He could need surgery to relieve the pain. "We'll see what happens when I move around again," Erstad said. "If this works, I could be ready to go soon. If it doesn't … I'm not ready to look at that side yet."
Get on the phone Kenny!

Beer Can Chicken
05-28-2006, 01:42 PM
Abreu played center in the WBC. From what I saw, he was serviceable. I think he would be at least as good in CF as Podsednik would.
If Mackowiak can play CF, Abreu would be more that servicable at the position. Abreu is quick and has a cannon.
Regardless, I still dont think the SOX will be getting Abreu anytime soon....

samram
05-28-2006, 01:49 PM
Abreu played center in the WBC. From what I saw, he was serviceable. I think he would be at least as good in CF as Podsednik would.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking- in fact, I think he would be better than Pods. He would have played CF while Rowand was out, but Victorino was really good for them.

jabrch
05-28-2006, 02:02 PM
Well the good news is the Sox have some attractive trade bait to offer. Fields, Anderson, Sweeney, Owens and even McCarthy/Garland all have significant trade value and all have at least some redundancy in the organization. One of the pitchers and one or two of the position players is plenty to offer to land a serious two way player in return.

I know I will hear it from various minor league gurus how trading this guy or that guy is not in the best interests, but package a couple of those guys up together and presto, you've got a major league CF and some bullpen help from a team going nowhere or looking to build for the future.

Don't be afraid to play for today. With 6 SP signed for the next few years, there is room to take a shot at a major upgrade at a position slot.

I do agree that if Anderson isn't traded, he should get his chances to play on this level. If he needs a break mentally, take the suspension now and let him work with Walker for the time he isn't playing.

I agree 100% VC. If we can make a move and get an absolute STUD in the OF, I'd do it and I'd do it now. There's NOBODY untouchable in the minors to me. If we can win another World Championship, or even make another run, I'd give up anyone in a fair deal. But I don't want to see Anderson get sent down for a mediocre CF. Tell me we get Beltran (I know) and you can have BA. Tell me we are looking at Marlon Byrd and I'd rather stick with BA. Reality is obviously somewhere in the middle.

I guess now would be a good time for our annual "What about Ken Griffey Jr." thread?

jabrch
05-28-2006, 02:04 PM
Abreu...YES

There's nothing I wouldn't trade if Bobby Abreu was available to us. But Philly is only 5 games out. I don't see them giving up yet.

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 02:53 PM
Abreu...YES

There's nothing I wouldn't trade if Bobby Abreu was available to us. But Philly is only 5 games out. I don't see them giving up yet.
Supposedly they have wanted to get rid of Abreu cause of his contract since they got Delucci.

Fuller_Schettman
05-28-2006, 03:27 PM
Anybody that thinks the Sox are going to trade for a majorly talented CF should change their bongwater.

The Sox made their big move when they traded Rowand away. Does anyone really think KW is going to say "Oops, my bad! Let's get ErstadAbreuHunter here ASAP!"

It ain't happening this year folks.

You will see one of two things:

A) Stick with BA 4 games a week and wait for him to have his breakthough

OR

B) Send BA down to Charlotte for a month to get his confidence up and fill CF with a platoon of Mackowiak/Ozuna/Pods and bite the bullet.

I prefer A but see the benefits of B. Bottom line is we need to see some kind of payoff by early September...

getonbckthr
05-28-2006, 03:31 PM
The Sox made their big move when they traded Rowand away. Does anyone really think KW is going to say "Oops, my bad! Let's get ErstadAbreuHunter here ASAP!"


..
That was a move to get Thome not a move to open a spot for Anderson.

Fuller_Schettman
05-28-2006, 03:41 PM
That was a move to get Thome AND open a spot for Anderson.

Fixed that for ya! :cool:

RowanDye
05-28-2006, 03:53 PM
This sounds like somebody who just had his intelligence questioned.

It ought to be.
:cool:

No, I'm sorry if it came off that way. I don't really care that much about the Cubs/Sox series, but it makes a lot of money for both teams. I just don't see the connection between Barrett being a hothead, and the condemnation of the Cubs organization as not being worth playing. Maybe fan incidents or something else in the past could have been used as evidence to end or shorten the Cubs/Sox series, but not this.

JB98
05-28-2006, 04:17 PM
We face Lee and Sabathia the next two days in Cleveland. Anderson will be in the lineup. Let's hope he plays well. The best possible solution is for BA to break out of this and starting giving us good at-bats. That would end all this speculation. As I've stated, my patience is starting to run out with Anderson, but I'm rooting my ass off for the kid. The Sox really need him to be the answer in CF. Mackowiak is a nice lefty bat off the bench, but he is a corner OF, not an everyday CF.

TheOldRoman
05-28-2006, 04:19 PM
Fixed that for ya! :cool:
I agree. The Sox felt that Anderson was MLB ready, and could supply better defense than Rowand, all for much less money. It wasn't going to do Brian any good to sit in the minors for another year. The deal was perfect from our standpoint, seeing as we moved Rowand AND got Thome along with $24million. Obviously, the Sox thought Brian would be doing better than he is right now.

SoxEd
05-28-2006, 04:37 PM
Now, I haven't read this whole thread, so my apologies if this has been said before, but...


One scenario could involve sending Anderson to Triple-A Charlotte, where he can try to regain his batting eye and stroke.

This quote is the article's fourth paragraph.
Note my emphasis.

In my (admittedly ill-informed, and foreign) opinion, this is a NON-story - nothing more than a way of filling the paper and getting folks talking.

With my tinfoil hat on, it's also yet another way for the Tribune to slight the Sox - by spreading the rumour that the '06 Sox are so bad that OG is convinced that they need to be tinkered with.

Furthermore:


But to me, I'm leaning toward another pitcher.

So, IF something IS wrong, then OG's priority is another Pitcher, NOT dropping BA.

Now, quite possibly I'm totally wrong, and maybe we WILL see BA optioned to Charlotte for a bit, but I don't see this as being a major concern just yet, and for now I'm standing by my opinion that this is nothing more than a rumour put in to fill space in the Trib.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2006, 04:57 PM
Four pages worth of posts about replacing the number nine hitter in the line-up?

:dunno:

I'm with Daver, and it has almost nothing to do with his skill with the elephant gun. :redneck

If the middle of the order produced to its career norms in the first two Toronto games, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Even Manny and Ortiz go through occasional slumps. Thome, Konerko and Dye are entitled to infrequent bat farts.

Anderson's defense makes the pitching better. Sometimes, it prevents runs. Unfortunately, there is no simple measure to quantify how many runs a particular player prevents. This is one of the subtle, qualitative nuances of the game that egghead stat heads cannot count.

For example, the Sox would have swept the Cubs if Anderson had been in center field during that fateful eighth inning. If Anderson is out there and makes the catch, preventing Barrett from hitting an RBI triple, the inning would have been over. So, in my anti-shoota formula, that would have been as good as a three-run homer (since Jacque Jones would not have had as opportunity to hit the two-run homer). Therefore, I'm adding a homer and three RBI's to Anderson's numbers.
:tongue:

Since Anderson is so much better defensively, and should be given the majority of starts in center field simply because of his defense, trading for Erstad would upgrade the bench with a superior, more experienced (yet more injury-prone) version of Ross Gload. It's a good trade if the price isn't more than a mid-level prospect.

The Sox were able to live with two months of Dye and Konerko sucking last year (although Hangar and I nearly hyperventilated over those two, respectively). :redface: They survived four months of Joe Crede sucking, and five months of Carl Everett as the mediocre #3 hitter and DH. Letting Anderson play through this slump and gain experience at the MLB level will pay dividends in the long run.

Fuller_Schettman
05-28-2006, 05:19 PM
Now, I haven't read this whole thread, so my apologies if this has been said before, but...


This quote is the article's fourth paragraph.
Note my emphasis.

In my (admittedly ill-informed, and foreign) opinion, this is a NON-story - nothing more than a way of filling the paper and getting folks talking.

With my tinfoil hat on, it's also yet another way for the Tribune to slight the Sox - by spreading the rumour that the '06 Sox are so bad that OG is convinced that they need to be tinkered with.

Furthermore:


So, IF something IS wrong, then OG's priority is another Pitcher, NOT dropping BA.

Now, quite possibly I'm totally wrong, and maybe we WILL see BA optioned to Charlotte for a bit, but I don't see this as being a major concern just yet, and for now I'm standing by my opinion that this is nothing more than a rumour put in to fill space in the Trib.
Pardon my curiosity Mr. Ed, but I have always wondered, do you type in a British accent?

TheOldRoman
05-28-2006, 05:19 PM
Abreu...YES

There's nothing I wouldn't trade if Bobby Abreu was available to us. But Philly is only 5 games out. I don't see them giving up yet.
I know there is ZERO chance of Abreu coming here, but MY GOD!! Imagine that lineup...
Pods
Iguchi
Abreu
Konerko
Thome
Dye
AJ
Crede
Uribe

:o::o::o::o:
That would allow us to move Thome down to fifth, and give us the same monster power and OBP out of the 3 spot, along with a lot of speed.

Ok, pipedream over. I will, however, trade for Abreu in MVP baseaball. Of course, I will have to up his defense to 99 just so he can roam CF like Anderson does. Defense wins championships. :cool:

SoxEd
05-28-2006, 05:56 PM
Pardon my curiosity Mr. Ed, but I have always wondered, do you type in a British accent?

I do indeed, except when I remember to e.g. omit the 'u' in color - although West now has my back on that one, so, soon, you may ALL come over the the Dark Side and rejoin the Empire. Bwahahahahahahahahahahah!
(Oops - I normally only think that bit...)

And, I ain't no talking horse!

Gavin
05-28-2006, 06:25 PM
To the people lauding BA's defense, I ask--when was the last time an outfielder got called up because of their defensive ability? It just doesn't happen--yet you would use the same argument for not sending him down. And for the people chiming in that Uribe also has good defense but can't hit for **** this year, the difference between them is that Uribe's MLB offense has a history, Anderson's doesn't. Let Mackowiak play choppy offense and quit burning time with Anderson on the squad. His defense is stellar, but it doesn't outweigh the opportunity cost of keeping him on the roster.

Edit: and don't give me examples of bench players getting called up for their defense, we're talking about starting players.

SoxEd
05-28-2006, 06:30 PM
the difference between them is that Uribe's MLB offense has a history, Anderson's doesn't.


Whilst I acknowledge the good sense of most of your last post, I'll buy you a crate of Falstaff for every Rookie you can show me who has a history of good offensive production in the Majors.
:wink:

The kid needs time to learn his trade.
And, given that we have the second-best record in the American League with BA playing, I don't think that the 'opportunity cost' of having him on the team is exactly killing us just yet.

Please note that we have slipped out of contention recently since he has NOT been playing.

Gavin
05-28-2006, 06:32 PM
And, given that we have the second-best record in the American League with BA playing, I don't think that the 'opportunity cost' of having him on the team is exactly killing us just yet.
Point made, I just don't think one or two outstanding late inning plays made by Anderson over a week is worth, say, two bullpen losses or 2-3 RBI foregone.

Edit: on a side note, how many AB are enough for him to "learn his trade"? An unanswerable question, unless your answer is "when he brings his average up to .250".

SoxEd
05-28-2006, 06:45 PM
Point made, I just don't think one or two outstanding late inning plays made by Anderson over a week is worth, say, two bullpen losses or 2-3 RBI foregone.

Fair enough - it's a tough one to balance out, isn't it?
Do we want a guy who stops the opposition from scoring, and who we hope will get better with his own bat - or do we want a guy who is better with the wood, but may let the opposition score more runs off him?

I'm glad it's not my job to make it...


Edit: on a side note, how many AB are enough for him to "learn his trade"? An unanswerable question, unless your answer is "when he brings his average up to .250".
Personally, I'd leave him in until at least the All-Star break, and if his lack of offensive production is demonstrably hurting us wrt the ALC race, option him to Charlotte then.
Would that be too late?
:dunno:

I dunno.

Of course, at this point, I have to admit that I've never even played Baseball (the nearest I ever came was playing Softball at school at the ages of 14 and 15), let alone managed an MLB team, so feel free to dismiss my idea as the ignorant ramblings of an uninformed foreigner.
:smile:

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 06:54 PM
If Mackowiak (or ANDERSON) makes that easy play in CF yesterday, the Sox don't need Uribe to turn the DP.

I have never played SS, but making an off-balance throw with a guy barreling into you at second base doesn't look like a routine play to me. I'm willing to give Juan the benefit of the doubt because historically his defense is stellar.

*edit--not to mention the fact that Konerko should have scooped that ball last week anyway.I have and it's not. The throw was rushed (which, of course, is the whole idea of sliding into the defender), which lead to the bad throw. Had he held the ball a split second longer he would have gotten pasted and not made the throw at all.

Daver
05-28-2006, 07:02 PM
Point made, I just don't think one or two outstanding late inning plays made by Anderson over a week is worth, say, two bullpen losses or 2-3 RBI foregone.

Edit: on a side note, how many AB are enough for him to "learn his trade"? An unanswerable question, unless your answer is "when he brings his average up to .250".

They gave Joe Crede two years to hit at the MLB level, because he had hit at every other level, and was a great defensive player.

Now you want to replace Brian Anderson after two months, even though he has hit on every other level and is a great defensive player?

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 07:08 PM
They gave Joe Crede two years to hit at the MLB level, because he had hit at every other level, and was a great defensive player.

Now you want to replace Brian Anderson after two months, even though he has hit on every other level and is a great defensive player?No comparison. There's no way they would have cut Crede that much slack if he was hitting .170. Even hitting .220-.240 they were close to trading him several times.

The major league is not a training ground. I have been solidly in Anderson's corner, but you can't have a .170 hitter in your lineup. It's now been two months. If it's not yet time to make a move, it's damn close. A little time in AAA with a lot less pressure might do him a world of good.

Daver
05-28-2006, 07:22 PM
No comparison. There's no way they would have cut Crede that much slack if he was hitting .170. Even hitting .220-.240 they were close to trading him several times.

The major league is not a training ground. I have been solidly in Anderson's corner, but you can't have a .170 hitter in your lineup. It's now been two months. If it's not yet time to make a move, it's damn close. A little time in AAA with a lot less pressure might do him a world of good.

We'll agree to disagree.

For the first time in a long time the Sox have a real center fielder playing center, not a misplaced corner outfielder. You can afford to have a player hitting numbernine that is a subpar hitter, if the rest of the lineup is living up to expectations, you want to send a message to someone, send it to the SS that is hovering at the Mendoza line. Bench him and replace him with the guy on your bench that had two hits today.

SoxFan64
05-28-2006, 07:52 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...

http://circlechange.com/mlbb/photo/DErstad2.jpg

Darin Erstad. It makes perfect sense...We also wouldn't be locked into a long-term deal with Erstad so Anderson could still find himself the CF of the future. Hey Stoneman, Garland for Erstad again? :tongue:
I like everything about it, short-term, gamer, good clubhouse guy and reasonably priced. Unfortunately it can't be Garland. Remember JG's new contract has a one year no trade clause. But you may be on to something, just not with Garland. I think it would be a minor leaguer or two.

So if Erstad comes over and IIRC he is a lefty means we need to get a righty on the bench so I guess Gload is gone (since IIRC he is out of options). Gload is a minor point.

Still Erstad may be the short term answer. I still like BA long term in CF.

markopat
05-28-2006, 08:13 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you your new White Sox centerfielder...

http://circlechange.com/mlbb/photo/DErstad2.jpg

Darin Erstad. It makes perfect sense. He's always been the guy that KW has mentioned when discussing grinder types. We know KW loves him. We know of at least one attempt by KW to attempt to trade for Erstad. Usually when KW likes a player, he will continue to try to trade for that player. Well, now is KW's chance. Erstad is a free agent at the end of the year. The Angels are struggling and will be going young. They have a lot of prospects that are MLB ready. It's likely that Chone Figgins will find himself in CF next year as the Angels look to make room for Kendrick, Aybar, Wood, McPherson, Morales, Kotchman, etc. That means Erstad's time with the Angels is running out. Unless the return of Colon and the recently called up youngsters like Morales and Jered Weaver can spark a run for the Angels, it's extremely likely that they would listen to trades for Erstad.

Enter KW with a chance to acquire one of his favorites who can play CF a lot better than Mackowiak while giving Anderson some time to work out the kinks in the minors. We also wouldn't be locked into a long-term deal with Erstad so Anderson could still find himself the CF of the future. Hey Stoneman, Garland for Erstad again? :tongue:

And hey, there's always Griffey...:D:

I lived in Anaheim for a year and the people out there despise Erstad..."no heart."

Also...do we have anyone else in AAA that might be ready to come up? I think that BA's hitting has sucked, but I do like his defense...I think they should be a little more patient!

Rock on SOX

markopat
05-28-2006, 08:22 PM
So...He was a pretty good hitter in the minors...What happened? Is it the higher level of pitching? Pressure to perform? Coaching?

2003 Great Falls (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2003/10208.shtml)21ChwRk1349619212133191011001 .388.492.5921084
2004 Winston-Salem (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2004/10439.shtml)22ChwA+692544381224846101294435013 .319.394.531925
2004 Birmingham (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2004/10110.shtml)22ChwAA4818526509342732193033113 .270.346.416762
2005 Charlotte (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2005/10136.shtml)23ChwAAA118448711322431657424411540141 1 .295.360.469829

wassagstdu
05-28-2006, 08:22 PM
They gave Joe Crede two years to hit at the MLB level, because he had hit at every other level, and was a great defensive player.

Now you want to replace Brian Anderson after two months, even though he has hit on every other level and is a great defensive player?

I'm witchoo. I admit I lost faith in Crede, and I was wrong. It's way too early to give up on Anderson. As for Erstad, I was very enthusiastic a couple of years ago, but I think that train has left the station. Stick with Anderson and we may see another Crede, Ventura, or a few years back, Floyd Robinson. The upside is huge.

.

Daver
05-28-2006, 08:29 PM
So...He was a pretty good hitter in the minors...What happened? Is it the higher level of pitching? Pressure to perform? Coaching?

2003 Great Falls (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2003/10208.shtml)21ChwRk1349619212133191011001 .388.492.5921084
2004 Winston-Salem (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2004/10439.shtml)22ChwA+692544381224846101294435013 .319.394.531925
2004 Birmingham (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2004/10110.shtml)22ChwAA4818526509342732193033113 .270.346.416762
2005 Charlotte (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/statistics/2005/10136.shtml)23ChwAAA118448711322431657424411540141 1 .295.360.469829

There is a huge difference in pitching from minor to major leagues. From the numbers you posted his lowest average was at AA Birmingham, because you face better pitchers in AA than you do in AAA, a lot of guys pitching in AAA are minor league lifers.

I won't go into the fact that I don't think Greg Walker can improve anyone as a hitter, because that is my opinion only.

Brian26
05-28-2006, 08:36 PM
Realistically with Delucci in Philadelphia having the ability to hit really well in that stadium, what would it take to get Abreu?

Where would he play? He's not a centerfielder.

Brian26
05-28-2006, 08:37 PM
Erstad is older, even more injury prone, and is just not worth the money he is getting. This season his OBP is .279 which is very comparble to Anderson's .276.

Just for ****s and giggles, let's remove his obvious fluke 2000 season from his career line
Currently it is .287/.341/.416
Without 2000 it is .277/.333/.398

He's just not very good.

He's not very good, and he's not nearly at the same level he was when KW tried to get him the first time after the 2001 season. I don't like the idea at all. Stick with BA.

Tragg
05-28-2006, 09:10 PM
Giving up any sort of talent for some mediocre veteran in CF is the last thing this team needs. Moves like that are a good way to turn the Sox into the Cubs.

Erstad is Exhibit A of exactly who we should not get. He can barely play CF anyway. He has ZERO homers (Anderson has 4) and he has exactly a .003 OBP edge over Anderson....Why would we do that?

Let the NINE hole hitter who plays great D (including an excellent arm, in contrast to most of the usual suspects) play and learn how to hit ML pitching (since he actually shows potential); he's not the only struggling hitter in the lineup (ahem, Uribe).

Thankfully, Kenny has rejected ludicrous notions (like Randa for 3rd) in the past; hopefully he'll continue to resist. He was willing to make a potentially terrible trade for Erstad back when he was still learning how to trade. (that Ritchie era). I think player infatuation was a bad habit he picked up from his predecessor - hopefully he's kicked the habit.

One thing about Anderson is that he's actually walked almost 15% of the time...which isn't bad.

wdelaney72
05-28-2006, 09:54 PM
We'll agree to disagree.

For the first time in a long time the Sox have a real center fielder playing center, not a misplaced corner outfielder. You can afford to have a player hitting numbernine that is a subpar hitter, if the rest of the lineup is living up to expectations, you want to send a message to someone, send it to the SS that is hovering at the Mendoza line. Bench him and replace him with the guy on your bench that had two hits today.

I also have to side with Daver on this one. BA just needs more time, and as long as he keeps playing solid defense, I want him there.

BA's bat is not costing us games. Yes, an improved bat could help us a bit more, but I like the stability of his defense in CF. He makes playing CF look easy. He stays.

soxtalker
05-28-2006, 11:10 PM
I agree with what seems to be the general (though not universal) consensus, which is that BA should be given more time. But I wonder if we're reading the wrong message from the articles suggesting that he might be sent down to the minors. It sounds like Ozzie and the coaches may have been trying to get him to improve his strategy at the plate, and that he's not following those instructions. I would imagine that would include things like working the count, hitting to a particular side, etc.

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 11:12 PM
I'm witchoo. I admit I lost faith in Crede, and I was wrong. It's way too early to give up on Anderson. As for Erstad, I was very enthusiastic a couple of years ago, but I think that train has left the station. Stick with Anderson and we may see another Crede, Ventura, or a few years back, Floyd Robinson. The upside is huge.

.I don't hear too many people "giving up" on Anderson. But at the same time, the major league is not a training ground. You just can't have someone hitting .170 in the lineup. I'd say at some time very soon they have to make a move. If he goes back to AAA it's likely only temporary. He just needs some work but they can't afford to having him in the lineup every day. That's what AAA is for.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 11:23 PM
Abreu played center in the WBC. From what I saw, he was serviceable. I think he would be at least as good in CF as Podsednik would.

You can't judge Abreu as a CF by a few innings he played in a meaningless game. Hs isn't that good of a rightfielder.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 11:25 PM
Supposedly they have wanted to get rid of Abreu cause of his contract since they got Delucci.

It had nothing to do with Dellucci. They looked to trade him in the offseason but only considered doing so if they could receive an ace in return. Now they have Shane Victorino, who played well in Rowand's absence, on the bench and they might be willing to trade Abreu again. I know the Phillies fans would love it. They hate Abreu because of his defense and lack of heart.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2006, 11:28 PM
From Sunday night's story in the Tribune by Mark Gonzales. It looks like BA's time is about run out:

"…If Brian continues to struggle, I will ask (general manager) Kenny Williams to see what we can do to get his swing back, or we will continue to play the way I'm playing him right now." - Ozzie Guillen.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 11:31 PM
It had nothing to do with Dellucci. They looked to trade him in the offseason but only considered doing so if they could receive an ace in return. Now they have Shane Victorino, who played well in Rowand's absence, on the bench and they might be willing to trade Abreu again. I know the Phillies fans would love it. They hate Abreu because of his defense and lack of heart.Dellucci isn't exactly hitting the cover off the ball. I think they were willing to trade Abreu in the off-season because they had Jason Michaels. Once they traded him, they no longer have OF to spare. Unless the Phils are out of it, there's no way they're going to trade Abreu. Victorino played well for a few weeks, but are they willing to roll the dice on him for an entire year? I don't think they will.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 11:47 PM
I like everything about it, short-term, gamer, good clubhouse guy and reasonably priced. Unfortunately it can't be Garland. Remember JG's new contract has a one year no trade clause. But you may be on to something, just not with Garland. I think it would be a minor leaguer or two.

So if Erstad comes over and IIRC he is a lefty means we need to get a righty on the bench so I guess Gload is gone (since IIRC he is out of options). Gload is a minor point.

Still Erstad may be the short term answer. I still like BA long term in CF.

I should clarify that the Garland part was just a joke, hence the :tongue: .

I should also add that I'm not saying Erstad is the perfect player for us. My post was more about what I think KW will do rather than what I want him to do. I think Erstad - once again, if healthy - fits the KW mold. And when you think about it, there aren't many options for CF. Let's run through all 29 teams quickly.

AL Central - You can pretty much rule out anybody here. The Indians and Tigers wouldn't want to help us. The Royals have no good players. Hunter might be available, but would they want to help us win another World Series and would we want to give up a few prospects within our division that could haunt us for years? Probably not a fit.

AL West:
Oakland - Kotsay isn't going anywhere.
Seattle - Ichiro could probably handle CF, but despite the rumblings that he could demand a trade if the Mariners struggle, that won't matter until the offseason.
Texas - Gary Matthews Jr. could be available if/when the Rangers fall out of it.
Anaheim - Erstad will likely be available if the Angels continue to struggle.

AL East:
Yankees and Red Sox - Neither team is going to help us and neither team really has anything we would want.
Orioles - They'd probably listen to offers for Matos or Patterson. Eh. Do either of those names do anything for anybody?
Devil Rays - Gathright will be available. He's not an upgrade. Crawford and Baldelli are pipedreams.
Toronto - Vernon Wells isn't going anywhere.

NL West:
Arizona - Ehh, Eric Bynes. Pass.
San Francisco - Randy Winn will remain there. Steve Finely may be available.
Colorado - They'll probably hold onto Cory Sullivan.
San Diego - I suppose Mike Cameron could be available, but with the way the NL West is shaping up, all 5 teams might still be in the race in July.
Los Angeles - Kenny Lofton, anyone? I'll pass.

NL Central:
Cubs - They're probably going to trade Pierre, but is he really an upgrade?
St. Louis - Edmonds is staying put.
Houston - Taveras won't be moved.
Pittsburgh - Pittsburgh doesn't even want their centerfielders.
Milwaukee - I suppose Brady Clark could be moved since the Brewers have Corey Hart and Bill Hall might have to move to the outfield in order to have an everyday job.
Cincinnatti - And then there's Griffey. Ownership wouldn't be a problem this time, but now the Reds are actually competing. They probably won't stick around.

NL East:
Atlanta - Andruw stays.
New York - Ditto for Beltran.
Washington - They can't even find a CF to play everyday. (Note: Hey morons, call Ryan Church back up and play him everyday!)
Philadelphia - Who's their centerfielder again? I can't remember. :wink: Yeah, he's staying.
Florida - Joe Borchard!

So there you have it. Possible realistic options: Gary Matthews Jr., Darin Erstad, Luis Matos, Corey Patterson, Joey Gathright, Mike Cameron (?), Kenny Lofton, Steve Finley, Juan Pierre, Brady Clark (?), Ken Griffey Jr. (?). Only a couple of those guys would actually be upgrades.

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 11:48 PM
What happens to Anderson's suspension if he's sent down to AAA? I assume he can't serve it there. Does he serve it when he gets called back up? This would seem to be a convenient loophole for a team with a player under suspension. Just appeal it, then send him down and call him back up in September. It can't be that easy.

Ol' No. 2
05-28-2006, 11:51 PM
I should clarify that the Garland part was just a joke, hence the :tongue: .

I should also add that I'm not saying Erstad is the perfect player for us. My post was more about what I think KW will do rather than what I want him to do. I think Erstad - once again, if healthy - fits the KW mold. And when you think about it, there aren't many options for CF. Let's run through all 29 teams quickly.

AL Central - You can pretty much rule out anybody here. The Indians and Tigers wouldn't want to help us. The Royals have no good players. Hunter might be available, but would they want to help us win another World Series and would we want to give up a few prospects within our division that could haunt us for years? Probably not a fit.

AL West:
Oakland - Kotsay isn't going anywhere.
Seattle - Ichiro could probably handle CF, but despite the rumblings that he could demand a trade if the Mariners struggle, that won't matter until the offseason.
Texas - Gary Matthews Jr. could be available if/when the Rangers fall out of it.
Anaheim - Erstad will likely be available if the Angels continue to struggle.

AL East:
Yankees and Red Sox - Neither team is going to help us and neither team really has anything we would want.
Orioles - They'd probably listen to offers for Matos or Patterson. Eh. Do either of those names do anything for anybody?
Devil Rays - Gathright will be available. He's not an upgrade. Crawford and Baldelli are pipedreams.
Toronto - Vernon Wells isn't going anywhere.

NL West:
Arizona - Ehh, Eric Bynes. Pass.
San Francisco - Randy Winn will remain there. Steve Finely may be available.
Colorado - They'll probably hold onto Cory Sullivan.
San Diego - I suppose Mike Cameron could be available, but with the way the NL West is shaping up, all 5 teams might still be in the race in July.
Los Angeles - Kenny Lofton, anyone? I'll pass.

NL Central:
Cubs - They're probably going to trade Pierre, but is he really an upgrade?
St. Louis - Edmonds is staying put.
Houston - Taveras won't be moved.
Pittsburgh - Pittsburgh doesn't even want their centerfielders.
Milwaukee - I suppose Brady Clark could be moved since the Brewers have Corey Hart and Bill Hall might have to move to the outfield in order to have an everyday job.
Cincinnatti - And then there's Griffey. Ownership wouldn't be a problem this time, but now the Reds are actually competing. They probably won't stick around.

NL East:
Atlanta - Andruw stays.
New York - Ditto for Beltran.
Washington - They can't even find a CF to play everyday. (Note: Hey morons, call Ryan Church back up and play him everyday!)
Philadelphia - Who's their centerfielder again? I can't remember. :wink: Yeah, he's staying.
Florida - Joe Borchard!

So there you have it. Possible realistic options: Gary Matthews Jr., Darin Erstad, Luis Matos, Corey Patterson, Joey Gathright, Mike Cameron (?), Kenny Lofton, Steve Finley, Juan Pierre, Brady Clark (?), Ken Griffey Jr. (?). Only a couple of those guys would actually be upgrades.Good analysis. A lot of those guys aren't better than Mackowiak or moving Pods to CF.

Jjav829
05-28-2006, 11:52 PM
Dellucci isn't exactly hitting the cover off the ball. I think they were willing to trade Abreu in the off-season because they had Jason Michaels. Once they traded him, they no longer have OF to spare. Unless the Phils are out of it, there's no way they're going to trade Abreu. Victorino played well for a few weeks, but are they willing to roll the dice on him for an entire year? I don't think they will.

I think they would if they got a pitcher in return. They have enough offense with Rollins, Utley, Howard, Rowand and Burrell. If they could get a pitcher for Abreu, I think they would trade him and go with Victorino. They're most likely going to move Burrell or Abreu before the start of next season.

samram
05-28-2006, 11:55 PM
So there you have it. Possible realistic options: Gary Matthews Jr., Darin Erstad, Luis Matos, Corey Patterson, Joey Gathright, Mike Cameron (?), Kenny Lofton, Steve Finley, Juan Pierre, Brady Clark (?), Ken Griffey Jr. (?). Only a couple of those guys would actually be upgrades.

One name that might scare people off because of past problems, but could be a possibility, is Jose Guillen. I know he played CF with Cincy, Oakland, and LAA, but I can't remember if he was any good.

Like I said before though, BA's defense has been important to this team and I think they would have to come close to replacing that as well if they decide to go in a different direction.

samram
05-29-2006, 12:01 AM
I think they would if they got a pitcher in return. They have enough offense with Rollins, Utley, Howard, Rowand and Burrell. If they could get a pitcher for Abreu, I think they would trade him and go with Victorino. They're most likely going to move Burrell or Abreu before the start of next season.

Agreed. As you said before, the fans there hate both of those guys. Unfortunately for them, I don't know if there is or will be a starting pitcher available that would be worth moving Abreu. Maybe if LAA decides to completely tear that thing down and deal Colon? Even that wouldn't make much sense because they would want to go young. I guess the Sox could dangle Garland a couple of prospects, but Jon hasn't been good enough this year and I think he would have a hard time dealing with Philly fans and Gillick would know it if that type of discussion came about.

Ol' No. 2
05-29-2006, 12:02 AM
One name that might scare people off because of past problems, but could be a possibility, is Jose Guillen. I know he played CF with Cincy, Oakland, and LAA, but I can't remember if he was any good.

Like I said before though, BA's defense has been important to this team and I think they would have to come close to replacing that as well if they decide to go in a different direction.I agree that CF defense will get a lot of priority in any trade, and there aren't more than a couple who would be good enough. That's why I'm leaning more and more toward sending Anderson down sooner rather than later. If he can spend a month in Charlotte and get back on track, they'll have him back by the break and they'll have a month before the trading deadline to make sure he's got his problem solved. OTOH, if he's still struggling, they'll have time to make a move before the deadline. If they wait much longer, a move to AAA probably becomes a one-way ticket (at least for this year).

cws05champ
05-29-2006, 12:41 AM
Hey, Carl Everett may be available!!!

Seriously though I think the Sox need to just run him out there 4 days/week just as they have. If he becomes a 2 day a week player, he should be sent down to get some confidence and AB's.

Erstad...uh NO!!!
Patterson I would like but, only if we deal from blocked or lower level prospects. Maybe Patterson for Rogo, and A ball pitchers....

Give up on Abreu or any other top shelf CF. Hopefully BA can turn it on and become a little more productive. I would like the Sox to use the prospects for BP help vs a CF.

getonbckthr
05-29-2006, 01:13 AM
If right now Seattle offered Ichiro for Anderson and Mccarthy would you do it? Why would Seattle do it, it would give them a solid young rotation (Bmac, Meche, Piniero, and Hernandez) Young OF'ers in Reed and Anderson. As far as the Sox go slide Ichiro into CF and the 2 hole drop Iguchi down to more of a power spot. Plus plays as good of defense as Anderson. Maybe even throw in Rogowski or Haegar.

balke
05-29-2006, 01:23 AM
If right now Seattle offered Ichiro for Anderson and Mccarthy would you do it? Why would Seattle do it, it would give them a solid young rotation (Fingernails on a blackboard, Meche, Piniero, and Hernandez) Young OF'ers in Reed and Anderson. As far as the Sox go slide Ichiro into CF and the 2 hole drop Iguchi down to more of a power spot. Plus plays as good of defense as Anderson. Maybe even throw in Rogowski or Haegar.

Oh man, here we go again. Ichiro makes the M's more money than they spend on him.

Beautox
05-29-2006, 02:34 AM
Hey, Carl Everett may be available!!!

Seriously though I think the Sox need to just run him out there 4 days/week just as they have. If he becomes a 2 day a week player, he should be sent down to get some confidence and AB's.

Erstad...uh NO!!!
Patterson I would like but, only if we deal from blocked or lower level prospects. Maybe Patterson for Rogo, and A ball pitchers....

Give up on Abreu or any other top shelf CF. Hopefully BA can turn it on and become a little more productive. I would like the Sox to use the prospects for BP help vs a CF.

I'm all for Patterson and maybe a deal of Rogo/Lucas Harrell or Tyler Lumsden? Hawk and DJ mentioned him today when they were going over the league leaders in SBs i believe hes 4th with 17SB/1CS. He's also batting .285, 5HR, 18RBI, 8BB, 23SO. If Brian can't get it togeather at the plate and when Mackowiak starts to fade i hope Kenny picks up the phone.

getonbckthr
05-29-2006, 02:38 AM
I'm all for Patterson and maybe a deal of Rogo/Lucas Harrell or Tyler Lumsden? Hawk and DJ mentioned him today when they were going over the league leaders in SBs i believe hes 4th with 17SB/1CS. He's also batting .285, 5HR, 18RBI, 8BB, 23SO. If Brian can't get it togeather at the plate and when Mackowiak starts to fade i hope Kenny picks up the phone.
My problem with Patterson is will the same pressure's be there again. Sure when he got to Baltimore everyone knew he was a hot prospect with the Cubs. Here we know all about him. For him I feel its best to stay away from Chicago.

Beautox
05-29-2006, 02:49 AM
My problem with Patterson is will the same pressure's be there again. Sure when he got to Baltimore everyone knew he was a hot prospect with the Cubs. Here we know all about him. For him I feel its best to stay away from Chicago.
i doubt it, on the south side people wouldn't be calling for his head in every AB and booing him when hes in CF he would also have a defined spot in the batting order. He would bat 8th, putting Juan back in the 9 hole.

Banix12
05-29-2006, 02:51 AM
Jay Payton might be another possibility once Bradley comes off the DL for Oakland. Luis Matos had a good year or two in Baltimore and may do ok in the 9 hole or maybe as an extra part time defensive OF.

In the minors the Red Sox have Gabe Kapler lying around and the reds have Alex Sanchez. Not really interested in either.

The sox probably aren't going to find a better offensive option than Mackowiak right now.

Finding an extra right handed setup man is a more pressing need than a 9 hitter right now anyway.

Eh, in Kenny I trust.

getonbckthr
05-29-2006, 03:07 AM
The way I see it unless we can get someone who is definately head and shoulders above what we have its not worth it. The people on that list are very hard to get. Names like Abreu, Crawford, Wells, Griffey, Ichiro etc etc etc. Guys like Erstad, Payton, Hunter, Cameron are nice players however for the upside I would rather stick with Brian out there.

Banix12
05-29-2006, 03:27 AM
The way I see it unless we can get someone who is definately head and shoulders above what we have its not worth it. The people on that list are very hard to get. Names like Abreu, Crawford, Wells, Griffey, Ichiro etc etc etc. Guys like Erstad, Payton, Hunter, Cameron are nice players however for the upside I would rather stick with Brian out there.

Looking at Griffey's stats this season, his upside might not be too great either. Same goes for erstad for that matter.

I'm actually pretty fine with BA and Mackowiak. Though here is an idea.

Looking at the the guys who will probably be on the market it looks like the best available middle relief guy is probably going to be Scott Williamson of the cubs. If Kenny could get Pierre for a moderate cost as part of a Williamson trade I wouldn't be adverse to it. There is no way Pierre is a .230 hitter, Ozzie likes him, he can settle into the 9 hole and if he does get his stroke back he gets us a second leadoff option and another strong basestealer, at least for the bench.

And maybe getting out of wrigley field will give him back that wiggly feel.

And I really have no problem giving prospects to the cubs since they'll just screw them up anyway. It's cruel to the prospects but thems the breaks. Got any marginal 2b to send them?

ShoelessJoeS
05-29-2006, 03:38 AM
Eh, in Kenny I trust.This pretty much sums up your overall great post on this subject.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2006, 08:35 AM
Daver,

I'm with you that the best option is to keep Anderson as the starting CF, simply for his defense.

If you were the hitting coach for the Sox, what advice would you give to Anderson to improve his hitting?

southside rocks
05-29-2006, 09:41 AM
I don't think that right now anybody can make a compelling argument that Anderson WON'T be a player with all the tools, once he matures a bit.

Therefore, I find it hard to imagine the management (KW, Ozzie, Reinsdorf) trading a player of BA's potential at this stage of the game. They're building for future years as much as they are putting the pieces together for a repeat this year.

I think it's great that the Sox are so good this year that BA's belated start at the plate is a "crisis" for them -- his hitting is not going to cost the team the pennant or the World Series, and his defensive abilities are notable even at this early stage in his career. I think the Sox are trying to jump-start his hitting with some shock treatment here. I hope it works, because as Ozzie notes, BA will play even *better* when he gets the confidence that comes with decent hitting.

And that will be something to see.

Daver
05-29-2006, 10:10 AM
Daver,

I'm with you that the best option is to keep Anderson as the starting CF, simply for his defense.

If you were the hitting coach for the Sox, what advice would you give to Anderson to improve his hitting?

As a career .191 hitter, I have no business giving hitting advice to anyone.

SBSoxFan
05-29-2006, 10:15 AM
As a career .191 hitter, I have no business giving hitting advice to anyone.

So, maybe you have some suggestions on what not to do? :redneck

ode to veeck
05-29-2006, 12:12 PM
So, maybe you have some suggestions on what not to do? :redneck

Don't read the insane threads at WSI!

ondafarm
05-29-2006, 12:19 PM
Daver,

I'm with you that the best option is to keep Anderson as the starting CF, simply for his defense.

If you were the hitting coach for the Sox, what advice would you give to Anderson to improve his hitting?

As a career minor leaguer who hit in the two-forties, I doubt I'll ever be asked to be a hitting coach.

I will say when a guy first came up, the solutions were three things.

1) work closely with the hitting coach
2) recall your past hitting success, get that into your mind
3) arrange to get more batting practice

Shoeless_Jim
05-29-2006, 12:28 PM
the only reason anderson hasnt started lately was because of the fight

he was suspened for 5 games.

lakeviewsoxfan
05-29-2006, 12:33 PM
Wrong! He has appealed his suspension he started on Friday against Ted Lilly

beckett21
05-29-2006, 08:24 PM
the only reason anderson hasnt started lately was because of the fight

he was suspened for 5 games.

Ozzie will start Mackowiak against righties and BA against lefties for now it seems.

The suspension is still awaiting appeal.

Ol' No. 2
05-29-2006, 08:26 PM
Ozzie will start Mackowiak against righties and BA against lefties for now it seems.

The suspension is still awaiting appeal.The Sox get Lee, Sabathia, Westbrook and Byrd this week. I'm not sure Ozzie is doing BA a favor.

balke
05-29-2006, 08:37 PM
All I know is, Ozzie came to the Sox saying he's all about pitching and defense. I thought he was absolutely nuts, but somehow it seemed to have worked for him (See: World Series Ring). If he's serious about Ozzieball, he needs a CFer who can D it up and lay down a bunt. Brian can at least play defense, hopefully he can get some hitting coach help and contribute at least some singles so the Sox don't have to replace him. I don't know if Josh Fields is really the answer, I wouldn't mind seeing what Owens can do though if things stay like this.

wassagstdu
05-29-2006, 10:37 PM
All I know is, Ozzie came to the Sox saying he's all about pitching and defense. I thought he was absolutely nuts...

You're joking, right?

.

SouthSide_HitMen
05-30-2006, 12:58 PM
Cowley says Ozzie backed off his ultimatum for now. Take it for what it is worth (coming from Joe):

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-soxnt30.html


CLEVELAND -- Manager Ozzie Guillen has backed off on Brian Anderson's immediate future in the big leagues for now, and with good reason. ''It's not fair for the kid to think he has to play good [every at-bat],'' Guillen said Monday.

Hopefully Anderson will continue to improve and get some work in during the suspension. We need his glove in CF.

To me the best scenario would be to start the suspension after the Indians series and let him get some work in. Mackowiak has been hot at the plate so you may has well ride him and hope his defense won't hurt the club when they return to Chicago.

yesenia
05-30-2006, 01:04 PM
Exactly, and I'm not ready to give up on Anderson. I can tell you one thing, Anderson could have given a much better at-bat than Mackowiak had with the bases loaded and 1 out.

Are you kidding me? I don't know how many times hes struck out with the bases loaded. Im all about Mackowiak. I dont know if anyone has left more stranded than Anderson. I think that he will prove to be the better player for now. Anderson may come into his own in the future but for now not so much. He still hasnt turned me into a fan. For now if I had to choose Mackowiak would be my starter

Hangar18
05-30-2006, 01:08 PM
I believe in Anderson, but he should be platooned at this point.
He career wise reminds me of Crede, lots of potential, at some point,
that proverbial "Switch" is going to be flicked ON, and he'll be very good for us.

longshot7
05-30-2006, 01:35 PM
With our lineup, we can deal with Anderson learning on the job, as long as it doesn't affect his defense. Ozzie should just tell him that he doesn't care what he hits, as long as he keeps plays awesome cf. Leave him in there no matter what.

Tragg
05-30-2006, 01:36 PM
Somebody needs to remind Ozzie that he was allowed to play 150+ games in his first 2 years, despite OBPs of .291 and .265 and a 2 year aggregate homer run total of 3.
Anderson has 4 homers already in year 1, and an OBP better than Ozzie had in his second year.

ondafarm
05-30-2006, 01:42 PM
Anderson needs to keep getting good at bats, see lots of pitches and keep being a positive factor. I don't know if anybody else remembers it but when Tim Raines first came to Chicago on a large FA signing, he didn't hit spit for quite awhile. He worked thru the slump and kept trying to be productive. So should Anderson.

batmanZoSo
05-30-2006, 01:42 PM
Somebody needs to remind Ozzie that he was allowed to play 150+ games in his first 2 years, despite OBPs of .291 and .265 and a 2 year aggregate homer run total of 3.
Anderson has 4 homers already in year 1, and an OBP better than Ozzie had in his second year.

There isn't much valdity to that. For starters, Ozzie was a rookie over 20 years ago. The game is a lot different now...there's no such thing as a player who doesn't hit, even up-the-middle guys. Not to mention the '85 White Sox were nowhere near the level of this Sox team. Anderson is brutal. You can't play every day and not hit. I was in favor of riding it out, but that didn't work. Now he should have to find his stroke while playing when he plays.

wmc
05-30-2006, 01:58 PM
I think it will help when Uribe gets his hitting back to his normal .250 range. The Sox might be able to afford a bit more patience with Anderson at that point. But with two guys below .200 (as it has been until recently) it is tough. You expect that Uribe will get back to his career numbers but you don't know what Anderson will rise to and when that will happen.

As far as getting someone short-term in a trade, I am not thrilled with the options like many others have said. Erstad seems like a big risk with his current injury problems.

Tragg
05-30-2006, 02:04 PM
There isn't much valdity to that. For starters, Ozzie was a rookie over 20 years ago. The game is a lot different now...there's no such thing as a player who doesn't hit, even up-the-middle guys. Not to mention the '85 White Sox were nowhere near the level of this Sox team. Anderson is brutal. You can't play every day and not hit. I was in favor of riding it out, but that didn't work. Now he should have to find his stroke while playing when he plays.

There's a lot more validity than you give it credit for. First, Ozzie was a bad hitter, not for just those 2 years, but throughout his career, including 1993, 1994 when the Sox absolutely were WS contenders.
The Sox were division contenders in 1985 (despite an off year in 1984, in which the division was won by a team that won 84 games). Through June of 1985, the Sox were tied (or within a game or 2) with the team that would end up winning the division. Yet the Sox stuck with their no hit shortstop.
Sure, shortstop is less of a hitting position than is CF - but it's not like we're talking 1B either, as CF is a defensive position. Sure, it is somewhat a more offensive era now (although the same thing was being said in the 1980s). And yes we are a WS contender now, and only a playoff contender then. On the other hand, this is also a pitching, defense and home-run hitting team - Anderson at least fits one of those categories perfectly. Bring in some CF like the usual suspects (Erstad, Pierre), and they will fit NONE of the categories.
Not a perfect comparison in the least, but some of similarities.

yesenia
05-30-2006, 02:05 PM
I know that Anderson got a lot of brownie points for joining in the fight but if you arent hitting, you arent hitting. Hes a good CF and has a lot of potential but to win a WS again we need guys that are ready.

Frater Perdurabo
05-30-2006, 02:14 PM
The very best indicator of whether or not the 2006 Sox can succeed with a light-hitting, Gold Glove-caliber defensive center fielder is not the 83 team, or the 85 squad, another team from this or any other era, or even the 2005 Sox.

The very best indicator is that the Sox have played very well with Anderson as their primary center fielder. The only thing that has caused them to not be in first place right now is the fact that Detroit - a team the Sox swept in their only series this season - went on an incredible run to catapult themselves past the Sox.

Why on earth would Sox fans fret about the #9 hitter, who is playing Gold Glove-caliber defense in center field?
:kukoo:

samram
05-30-2006, 02:15 PM
Anderson needs to keep getting good at bats, see lots of pitches and keep being a positive factor. I don't know if anybody else remembers it but when Tim Raines first came to Chicago on a large FA signing, he didn't hit spit for quite awhile. He worked thru the slump and kept trying to be productive. So should Anderson.

Yeah, but Tim Raines was a former All-Star with 10-12 years of experience- BA is a rookie with no track record of ML success.

Also, I think Tim was acquired via trade with the 'Spos.

rdwj
05-30-2006, 02:27 PM
Why on earth would Sox fans fret about the #9 hitter, who is playing Gold Glove-caliber defense in center field?
:kukoo:

I ask the same question all the time. The guy is LIGHTS OUT in center. And it's not like the team isn't scoring many runs - like last year. Having someone out there that can take some runs away from the other team is nice to have. ESPECIALLY since we know he's eventually going to be a heck of a hitter.

rumbleseat16
05-30-2006, 02:37 PM
Bottom line = pitching and defense with some timely hitting will win in the long run as was proven out last year. Leave BA in there and let him figure out his hitting with Walker's help. He is by far our best option in center field as far as defense is concerned. Adding Thome made our offense is so much better that we can afford to let BA go thru some growing pains at the plate....

Tekijawa
05-30-2006, 02:41 PM
Gload is being kept around as insurance for Thome.
I believe this is the equivalent to having a $500,000.00 Deductable on your car insurance for your Ford Taurus.

batmanZoSo
05-30-2006, 02:44 PM
I ask the same question all the time. The guy is LIGHTS OUT in center. And it's not like the team isn't scoring many runs - like last year. Having someone out there that can take some runs away from the other team is nice to have. ESPECIALLY since we know he's eventually going to be a heck of a hitter.
We don't know that at all. We do know that Mackowiak is a good hitter and no, he's nowhere near the defender Anderson is, but you can't just keep trotting out a guy who's doing absolutely nothing with the bat when you have another guy who's been contributing. On principle alone you shouldn't do that, but in the bigger scheme of things, because we have a division to win.

yesenia
05-30-2006, 02:53 PM
We don't know that at all. We do know that Mackowiak is a good hitter and no, he's nowhere near the defender Anderson is, but you can't just keep trotting out a guy who's doing absolutely nothing with the bat when you have another guy who's been contributing. On principle alone you shouldn't do that, but in the bigger scheme of things, because we have a division to win.

This is what I'm saying. Good post

Tragg
05-30-2006, 03:02 PM
I believe this is the equivalent to having a $500,000.00 Deductable on your car insurance for your Ford Taurus.
Or having a $1,000 maximum coverage limitation on your Rolls Royce

rdwj
05-30-2006, 03:06 PM
We don't know that at all. We do know that Mackowiak is a good hitter and no, he's nowhere near the defender Anderson is, but you can't just keep trotting out a guy who's doing absolutely nothing with the bat when you have another guy who's been contributing. On principle alone you shouldn't do that, but in the bigger scheme of things, because we have a division to win.

Mac is a serious liability in the field. That's a fact. There have been several hits that would have been outs if Anserson were in the field. There have also been extra base hits that would have been singles.

So, if you're going to make the argument that you can't keep trotting out a guy who does nothing with the bat, I want to know how come you're willing to allow a guy to take the field that doesn't have the tools to field the position?

It's true, we may not know when Anderson is going to start hitting, but we know that that Mac is NEVER going to be able to play a decent center on a full time basis. I'll take my chances with the glove man given the choice.

TheOldRoman
05-30-2006, 03:14 PM
We don't know that at all. We do know that Mackowiak is a good hitter and no, he's nowhere near the defender Anderson is, but you can't just keep trotting out a guy who's doing absolutely nothing with the bat when you have another guy who's been contributing. On principle alone you shouldn't do that, but in the bigger scheme of things, because we have a division to win. You cannot expect someone to get a hit. They go up there an give it their best effort, but they cannot come through every time. Obviously, someone who gets a hit 3 out of 10 at bats is great.
On the other hand, you CAN expect someone to make every defensive play. Everyone has a few errors here and there, but it is very important that every player makes as many putouts as they possibly can.
Players can't be relied upon to hit, but they CAN be relied upon to make defensive plays. For example, if Anderson goes 0-4 and leaves 3 men on base, he isn't helping the team, but he isn't hurting the team all that much because he makes putouts on anything hit to center. On the other hand, if Rob has 3 hits in a game, but he misplays a two out flyball for a triple with the bases loaded, he has actually hurt the club. If you have a great defender, and someone who is average at best defensively in CF, you have to go with the great defender. Rob misplaying balls and picking up errors will hurt us a lot more than his 2 or 3 extra hits a week will help us.

maurice
05-30-2006, 03:17 PM
We do know that Mackowiak is a good hitter

Define "good hitter."

Mackowiak is a barely adequate hitter and a barely adequate defender in CF, and that's being generous. He played most of his career on one of the worst teams in baseball and only sometimes managed to crack the starting lineup. (He's never had 500 ABs in a season and only twice topped 400 ABs.) It probably has something to do with his .259 career AVE.

Mackowiak's value to this team is as a versatile bench player. Mackowiak himself repeatedly has said that the Sox are a better team with him coming off of the bench, and he's right.

batmanZoSo
05-30-2006, 03:32 PM
You cannot expect someone to get a hit. They go up there an give it their best effort, but they cannot come through every time. Obviously, someone who gets a hit 3 out of 10 at bats is great.
On the other hand, you CAN expect someone to make every defensive play. Everyone has a few errors here and there, but it is very important that every player makes as many putouts as they possibly can.
Players can't be relied upon to hit, but they CAN be relied upon to make defensive plays. For example, if Anderson goes 0-4 and leaves 3 men on base, he isn't helping the team, but he isn't hurting the team all that much because he makes putouts on anything hit to center. On the other hand, if Rob has 3 hits in a game, but he misplays a two out flyball for a triple with the bases loaded, he has actually hurt the club. If you have a great defender, and someone who is average at best defensively in CF, you have to go with the great defender. Rob misplaying balls and picking up errors will hurt us a lot more than his 2 or 3 extra hits a week will help us.

I could use extreme examples to prove a point, too, but there really is no point in doing that. What if Anderson makes an error? I guess he's completely worthless on such a day.

1917
05-30-2006, 03:36 PM
Rowand started the same way, he's young, give him time, thank God we have Mac!

batmanZoSo
05-30-2006, 03:41 PM
Define "good hitter."

Mackowiak is a barely adequate hitter and a barely adequate defender in CF, and that's being generous. He played most of his career on one of the worst teams in baseball and only sometimes managed to crack the starting lineup. (He's never had 500 ABs in a season and only twice topped 400 ABs.) It probably has something to do with his .259 career AVE.

Mackowiak's value to this team is as a versatile bench player. Mackowiak himself repeatedly has said that the Sox are a better team with him coming off of the bench, and he's right.

I can define very bad hitter. That's someone who goes 0-4 pretty much every day with three strikeouts, or Brian Anderson. You say Mackowiak's value is increased with proper usage, well so is Anderson's. There comes a point when a player's complete lack of offensive production outweighs what he does with the glove. They both need to be used where they'll benefit the team most. Giving a non-producing rookie the starting job is for the Florida Marlins, not the defending World Champions.

Scottiehaswheels
05-30-2006, 04:15 PM
heh didn't read any of this post but ran into him at the hotel in Toronto... told him my nickname for him is "poolboy" after the incident at the Playboy mansion... he didn't seem to like it very much..... carry on....

Tragg
05-30-2006, 04:16 PM
I can define very bad hitter. That's someone who goes 0-4 pretty much every day with three strikeouts, or Brian Anderson. You say Mackowiak's value is increased with proper usage, well so is Anderson's. There comes a point when a player's complete lack of offensive production outweighs what he does with the glove. They both need to be used where they'll benefit the team most. Giving a non-producing rookie the starting job is for the Florida Marlins, not the defending World Champions.

During this extreme struggle, he's also shown a little power and the ability to take a walk. We're winning and patience will pay off.

Rob M is a fine utility player and I'm glad we have him.

TheOldRoman
05-30-2006, 04:17 PM
I can define very bad hitter. That's someone who goes 0-4 pretty much every day with three strikeouts, or Brian Anderson. You say Mackowiak's value is increased with proper usage, well so is Anderson's. There comes a point when a player's complete lack of offensive production outweighs what he does with the glove. They both need to be used where they'll benefit the team most. Giving a non-producing rookie the starting job is for the Florida Marlins, not the defending World Champions.
No, no there doesn't. If the player records every out he can, and goes above and beyond by taking "sure hits" away, like Brian has done, his defensive production is not outweighed by his bat. Not on a high scoring team like this. However, there comes a point where a players' offensive production is outweighed by his complete lack of defensive ability (see: Barroids circa 2006). Rob is not a great centerfielder. A misplayed ball hurts a hell of a lot more than an extra single or two a week helps. And really we are talking about an extra basehit, maybe two, over the course of a week. It isn't worth giving up the great defense for.

TheOldRoman
05-30-2006, 04:19 PM
I could use extreme examples to prove a point, too, but there really is no point in doing that. What if Anderson makes an error? I guess he's completely worthless on such a day.
Yes, but that is rare. Anderson is a very good CF, and he takes away hits that most other guys would let fall.
My example wasn't extreme. A botched defensive play really hurts the team. Three strikeouts doesn't hurt nearly as much.

yesenia
05-30-2006, 04:24 PM
Yes, but that is rare. Anderson is a very good CF, and he takes away hits that most other guys would let fall.
My example wasn't extreme. A botched defensive play really hurts the team. Three strikeouts doesn't hurt nearly as much.

When you are down a few runs and bases are loaded- that would be a great time for a guy who can swing a bat actually hit some guys in. Anderson has missed that opportunity more than anyone else so far. Granted he's new but hes in the majors and yeah those guys should be held to higher standards. Not all the balls go his way so when it comes to games that you are down in- I say put in the other guys. Anderson can learn how to hit in practice.

Chisox003
05-30-2006, 04:29 PM
Rather than go thru 200 posts, I'll just add:

Brian brings the leather, Brian stays.

I like to simplify things.

southside rocks
05-30-2006, 04:30 PM
When you are down a few runs and bases are loaded- that would be a great time for a guy who can swing a bat actually hit some guys in. Anderson has missed that opportunity more than anyone else so far. Granted he's new but hes in the majors and yeah those guys should be held to higher standards. Not all the balls go his way so when it comes to games that you are down in- I say put in the other guys. Anderson can learn how to hit in practice.

Or, Ozzie can pinch-hit for BA in those situations for a while. Or as he said he would, continue to platoon BA with Mackowiak.

And I have never played any level of baseball, but I think that hitting in practice is quite different from hitting in a game. BA needs to learn on the job, as it were. It may turn out, years from now, that his rookie year was the worst and toughest of his career.

If he gets sent down to Triple-A, what's that do to his confidence? I think BA should stay with the Sox and fight through this. If he ends up batting .170 for the year, that's something the management will address at that time.

Tragg
05-30-2006, 04:31 PM
When you are down a few runs and bases are loaded- that would be a great time for a guy who can swing a bat actually hit some guys in. .
I agree....a good time for a pinch hitter, especially if late in the game.

Chip Z'nuff
05-30-2006, 04:32 PM
Granted he's new but hes in the majors and yeah those guys should be held to higher standards. Not all the balls go his way so when it comes to games that you are down in- I say put in the other guys. Anderson can learn how to hit in practice.

Reminds me of Kittle in this regard (obviously Kitty had a few good years before pitchers knew how to get him out.) Was always a sucker for a high and inside fastball. The problem may be the opposition knows how to pitch to Brian. I haven't picked anything up yet, but I am also not studying game film. Hopefully all this time riding the bench will get him a few good discussions with Walker.

yesenia
05-30-2006, 04:36 PM
I couldnt agree with you more

TheOldRoman
05-30-2006, 04:36 PM
When you are down a few runs and bases are loaded- that would be a great time for a guy who can swing a bat actually hit some guys in. Anderson has missed that opportunity more than anyone else so far. Granted he's new but hes in the majors and yeah those guys should be held to higher standards. Not all the balls go his way so when it comes to games that you are down in- I say put in the other guys. Anderson can learn how to hit in practice.
I agree, that would be a wonderful time to get a hit. However, even if it is a great hitter, he is going to fail 7 out of 10 times. That is why you go with defense over offense.

maurice
05-30-2006, 05:19 PM
I can define very bad hitter.

Why dodge the question? I guess you're conceding the point that Mackowiak cannot be fairly described as a good hitter. When you add this fact to the fact that he's (at best) a barely adequate defender in CF, you have a player with very limited value as a starter.

Anderson is an elite defender, and he's very likely to become a better offensive player than Mackowiak as well. An elite defender never is "non-producing," even when he's in a deep slump. That's the reason that Ozzie kept running Crede and Uribe out there every day for the past few years, even when they had an OBP below .300.

batmanZoSo
05-30-2006, 05:29 PM
Why dodge the question? I guess you're conceding the point that Mackowiak cannot be fairly described as a good hitter. When you add this fact to the fact that he's (at best) a barely adequate defender in CF, you have a player with very limited value as a starter.

Anderson is an elite defender, and he's very likely to become a better offensive player than Mackowiak as well. An elite defender never is "non-producing," even when he's in a deep slump. That's the reason that Ozzie kept running Crede and Uribe out there every day for the past few years, even when they had an OBP below .300.

Well for one, you didn't ask me any questions and you must've missed the part where I said both need to be used in such a way as to maximize what each brings to the table. That doesn't mean either one gets a full time job. My main issue is with some people insisting that Anderson play every day and "work it out." He's had ample time to do so and I supported that for a while, but he didn't do it and you have to move on at some point. I think he'll be alright in the end, but we have a very good bench guy for just this kind of situation and he can start a string of games if he's producing with the bat.

Ol' No. 2
05-30-2006, 05:35 PM
The very best indicator of whether or not the 2006 Sox can succeed with a light-hitting, Gold Glove-caliber defensive center fielder is not the 83 team, or the 85 squad, another team from this or any other era, or even the 2005 Sox.

The very best indicator is that the Sox have played very well with Anderson as their primary center fielder. The only thing that has caused them to not be in first place right now is the fact that Detroit - a team the Sox swept in their only series this season - went on an incredible run to catapult themselves past the Sox.

Why on earth would Sox fans fret about the #9 hitter, who is playing Gold Glove-caliber defense in center field?
:kukoo:There have been numerous games when Anderson's inability to do anything with the bat has cost them the game. It does not follow that because it hasn't been fatal up until now that it won't hurt them in the future.

How do you balance offense with defense? Obviously, good defense can make up for some lack of offense, but it's not an unlimited tradeoff. No matter how good his defense is, at some point a lack of offense can't be made up by improved defense. What is that point? .200? .150? .100? There is no hard answer, and it depends somewhat on the position. CF is one of the main defense positions, but it's not as critical as SS or C. There's almost 120 pts difference in batting average between Anderson and Mackowiak. I have a hard time believing that Anderson's defense can make up that big a difference. It's like having the pitcher bat.

Also, this is not simply about how many hits he gets. As Ozzie has pointed out many times, Anderson is not getting good at-bats. His outs are non-productive, he's not working the count, and generally looks overmatched at the plate, although he did look a bit better in Sunday's game. I don't think they can just send Anderson out there every day with the way he's hitting. If he's just going to play a couple of days a week, he'd be better off in AAA.

Daver
05-30-2006, 05:43 PM
How do you balance offense with defense? Obviously, good defense can make up for some lack of offense, but it's not an unlimited tradeoff. No matter how good his defense is, at some point a lack of offense can't be made up by improved defense. What is that point? .200? .150? .100? There is no hard answer, and it depends somewhat on the position. CF is one of the main defense positions, but it's not as critical as SS or C. There's almost 120 pts difference in batting average between Anderson and Mackowiak. I have a hard time believing that Anderson's defense can make up that big a difference. It's like having the pitcher bat.


It does help to have an excellent CFer to help make up for the lack of defensive skill you are getting out of your catcher, who does provide offense not expected from his position to offset a lack of production from the CFer. It's a tradeoff, and it is still an argument over the nine spot in the batting order.

Bat Mackiowak eighth in center and we are having this same discussion about the struggles of Juan Uribe in the nine slot.

Ol' No. 2
05-30-2006, 05:49 PM
It does help to have an excellent CFer to help make up for the lack of defensive skill you are getting out of your catcher, who does provide offense not expected from his position to offset a lack of production from the CFer. It's a tradeoff, and it is still an argument over the nine spot in the batting order.

Bat Mackiowak eighth in center and we are having this same discussion about the struggles of Juan Uribe in the nine slot.Where he hits in the batting order is irrelevant. It a simple choice of Anderson's superior defense and .167 batting average vs. Mackowiak's weaker defense and .284 batting average. How much CF defense makes up for 117 pts in batting average? I don't think it's enough.

Daver
05-30-2006, 05:59 PM
Where he hits in the batting order is irrelevant. It a simple choice of Anderson's superior defense and .167 batting average vs. Mackowiak's weaker defense and .284 batting average. How much CF defense makes up for 117 pts in batting average? I don't think it's enough.

Last time I checked, no single player ever won a World Series trophy by himself, so why are individual stats being brought into what is the best option for the team? If you are gonna use individual stats, then at least use RBI's, which is a better way of telling what he is doing for the team.

ma-gaga
05-30-2006, 06:07 PM
Last time I checked, no single player ever won a World Series trophy by himself, so why are individual stats being brought into what is the best option for the team? If you are gonna use individual stats, then at least use RBI's, which is a better way of telling what he is doing for the team.

RBI's??!??!?

propeller. head. going. to. blow.

aaaaaah!!! (RUNS CREATED/VORP/WARP/WINSHARES/BABIP/SNLNVR!!!)

phew. I feel better.

Ol' No. 2
05-30-2006, 06:20 PM
Last time I checked, no single player ever won a World Series trophy by himself, so why are individual stats being brought into what is the best option for the team? If you are gonna use individual stats, then at least use RBI's, which is a better way of telling what he is doing for the team.Why is RBI a better comparison, because it's more favorable for Anderson? Neither of these guys have enough RBI to fill a thimble, so why is that a good comparison? Why not SO (BA 35, RM 18)? Why not OPS (BA .572, RM .787)?

Let's face it, Anderson hasn't exactly been Mr. Clutch. 5 of his 11 RBI came in two games and had no bearing on the outcome. In fact, I could find only one that materially changed the game (9th inning HR in Seattle on Apr 24). I count at least four games when Mackowiak's RBI made a difference. You can make a lot of good arguments for BA, but if you had to have one of them at the plate in a critical situation tonight, you can't seriously be telling me you'd rather have Anderson.

Again, the real question is: Does Anderson's better defense make up for his anemic hitting? If he was hitting even .200, I'd say maybe. But at .167? No way.

ondafarm
05-30-2006, 06:38 PM
There have been numerous games when Anderson's inability to do anything with the bat has cost them the game. It does not follow that because it hasn't been fatal up until now that it won't hurt them in the future. . .

I'm wondering how many is "numerous". I honestly don't remember any where I thought "Anderson cost them the game." "Didn't contribute" Yes, several. On the other hand, poor plays by Mackowiak have extended at least two opponent rallys that did cost the Sox the game.

CF is the most important outfield defensive position. And if you send BA down, you suspend his learning process on defense. Yes, I believe he will get better on defense.

If Anderson was a very good defender in right field I'd say send him down now. Right field defense isn't critical. CF is.

He needs more platooning and more working with Walker and needs to concentrate on productive at bats, working counts and seeing the ball better. That needs to be done with the major league club.

Ol' No. 2
05-30-2006, 07:00 PM
I'm wondering how many is "numerous". I honestly don't remember any where I thought "Anderson cost them the game." "Didn't contribute" Yes, several. On the other hand, poor plays by Mackowiak have extended at least two opponent rallys that did cost the Sox the game.

CF is the most important outfield defensive position. And if you send BA down, you suspend his learning process on defense. Yes, I believe he will get better on defense.

If Anderson was a very good defender in right field I'd say send him down now. Right field defense isn't critical. CF is.

He needs more platooning and more working with Walker and needs to concentrate on productive at bats, working counts and seeing the ball better. That needs to be done with the major league club.There are lots of examples where Anderson didn't produce in key situations. April 5 is a pretty memorable one, in which Anderson had many opportunities with RISP late in the game. He had 6 LOB that game and the Sox lost 4-3. (To be fair, they had 14 LOB that day, so he wasn't the only one.) There are plenty of others, but I'm not going to look them all up. These are every bit as important (and more numerous) as Mackowiak's defensive inabilities.

There's no point in rehashing the this again. I like the kid and I think he's going to be a good major leaguer, and sooner rather than later. But right now he's hurting the team. I just don't think you can afford to have a .167 hitter in your lineup, no matter how good his defense is. And I'm beginning to think it would be better for him to be working out the kinks in AAA where there's less pressure.

Daver
05-30-2006, 07:03 PM
RBI's??!??!?

propeller. head. going. to. blow.

aaaaaah!!! (RUNS CREATED/VORP/WARP/WINSHARES/BABIP/SNLNVR!!!)

phew. I feel better.

Where I come from we shoot propellerheads on site.

:)

batmanZoSo
05-30-2006, 08:00 PM
Again, the real question is: Does Anderson's better defense make up for his anemic hitting? If he was hitting even .200, I'd say maybe. But at .167? No way.

No way it doesn't. And like you said before he doesn't even have productive at bats, I'd also say maybe if he made contact and was adept at moving runners along and what not. It's just whiff city with him. No way he plays most of the time right now in my book.

INSox56
05-30-2006, 09:21 PM
i don't think you can leave uribe out of this discussion either. Cintron's D isn't all that bad, really. And even though Cintron isn't hitting like 400, he at least has a CHANCE at the plate. I am REALLY getting tired of the best 1-2 punch in the majors....best at killing innings and any semblence of a rally: Anderson and Uribe. It's getting very, VERY old expecting the automatic outs.

patbooyah
05-30-2006, 09:27 PM
i don't think you can leave uribe out of this discussion either. Cintron's D isn't all that bad, really. And even though Cintron isn't hitting like 400, he at least has a CHANCE at the plate. I am REALLY getting tired of the best 1-2 punch in the majors....best at killing innings and any semblence of a rally: Anderson and Uribe. It's getting very, VERY old expecting the automatic outs.

uribe has 6 hits in the last four games. he seems to be coming around and has proven that he can hit at a .250 chop in the majors. anderson just needs to reset and come back up with less pressure once he has gotten some at-bats.

INSox56
05-30-2006, 09:30 PM
Agreed, I don't think Anderson will be bad forever. I just think the guy definitely needs some refresher. I think the more ABs he's getting, the worse off he is.

patbooyah
05-30-2006, 09:34 PM
Agreed, I don't think Anderson will be bad forever. I just think the guy definitely needs some refresher. I think the more ABs he's getting, the worse off he is.

yeah, i think that going back down to AAA will take some pressure off and then he can be called back up and start with a clean slate.

ozzie311
05-30-2006, 09:40 PM
Why not give Jerry Owens a shot? He had flashes in the preseason. I know Cora wasn't happy he skipped out early in the Venezuelan league, but Ozzie kind of swept it under the rug and really liked the kid.

Daver
05-30-2006, 09:44 PM
Why not give Jerry Owens a shot? He had flashes in the preseason. I know Cora wasn't happy he skipped out early in the Venezuelan league, but Ozzie kind of swept it under the rug and really liked the kid.

Ever see Owens play center?

Might as well put Ross Gload out there.

FarWestChicago
05-30-2006, 09:58 PM
Yeah, **** Anderson. We already proved we could mash our way to a Series championsip in 2000 and 2005. Oh wait... :redneck

thomas35forever
05-30-2006, 10:25 PM
Anderson's shown us what he can do. Right now, he should probably be used for defense in close-game situations.

Gavin
05-30-2006, 10:31 PM
Brian "Automatic Out" Anderson's spot on the roster can be better right now, period.

spiffie
05-31-2006, 12:05 PM
West is absolutely right. The middle of our order is plenty of offense for winning a World Series if you have solid defense up the middle, and that comes from having the cannon arm of Uribe and the amazing glove work of Anderson in CF. Use Mackowiak in key late inning situations if you really need a hit, but otherwise I have no worries even if BA never gets his bat on the ball the rest of the season. We have Thome, Konerko, Dye and Crede, not to mention AJ and his .300+ average. If that's not enough offense then nothing will be. Uribe will come around, he's always been a .250 hitter and that's more than enough offense from his spot. And Brian will learn. He has a little pop in his bat which is nice. And in the end all scoring a lot of runs does is help you win in the pretend standings, not the real ones. Those are won by stopping the other team from scoring runs.

rdwj
05-31-2006, 12:09 PM
Brian "Automatic Out" Anderson's spot on the roster can be better right now, period.

With who???

Please don't forget about the defensive side of the ball when you answer. You're little nickname works well for his D too. Anything hit withing a 1/2 mile of the guy is gonna get caught.

Hitmen77
05-31-2006, 12:56 PM
My biggest concern with Anderson is whether he gets to the point where he's totally floundering and leaving him out there to "sink or swin" will harm his development. I don't know if that's a valid concern at this point, but I'm interested in others' insight on this.

ondafarm
05-31-2006, 01:45 PM
My biggest concern with Anderson is whether he gets to the point where he's totally floundering and leaving him out there to "sink or swin" will harm his development. I don't know if that's a valid concern at this point, but I'm interested in others' insight on this.

I think Ozzie is watching that very carefully and is acting in accordance.

ondafarm
05-31-2006, 01:46 PM
West is absolutely right. . .

Spiffie, that's a good strategy whatever else you post. :D:

rdwj
05-31-2006, 02:41 PM
My biggest concern with Anderson is whether he gets to the point where he's totally floundering and leaving him out there to "sink or swin" will harm his development. I don't know if that's a valid concern at this point, but I'm interested in others' insight on this.

He doesn't appear to be floundering to me and some of his at bats are quite good. At this point, I just think he needs a bit of luck.

Hitmen77
05-31-2006, 03:21 PM
He doesn't appear to be floundering to me and some of his at bats are quite good. At this point, I just think he needs a bit of luck.

Interestingly, his OBP is the same as Juan Pierre's. :o:

I'm not trying to be flubsessed. Honestly, I wasn't looking for Pierre's numbers, but I happened to look at stats on mlb.com and when sorted by OBP, he was listed just above BA.

I know that doesn't tell the whole story about BA's offensive production, but I found it to be an interesting tidbit.

spiffie
05-31-2006, 04:15 PM
Interestingly, his OBP is the same as Juan Pierre's. :o:

I'm not trying to be flubsessed. Honestly, I wasn't looking for Pierre's numbers, but I happened to look at stats on mlb.com and when sorted by OBP, he was listed just above BA.

I know that doesn't tell the whole story about BA's offensive production, but I found it to be an interesting tidbit.
And that right there is why BA is doing fine. If we were looking to him to be the table setter for this team it would horrible and we would be justified in calling for wholesale changes. But he's at the bottom of the order. Right now Brian is averaging just about 14 AB's per week and 2.5 hits per week. If he were just getting 1 more hit per week (and not giving back any walks, since this is being a pro-BA post) he would be hitting about .235 and have an OBP of a shade over .300. At which point this discussion would not be happening. Is it frustrating when has crappy at-bats where he seems overmatched? Of course it is, but in time he'll start to get that 1-2 more hits per week, and this whole discussion will be silly in retrospect.

SouthSide_HitMen
05-31-2006, 04:21 PM
Right now Brian is averaging just about 14 AB's per week and 2.5 hits per week. If he were just getting 1 more hit per week (and not giving back any walks, since this is being a pro-BA post) he would be hitting about .235 and have an OBP of a shade over .300. At which point this discussion would not be happening.

http://www.fanlistings.org/kevin_costner/images_new/kevin_costner_bull_durham_2.jpg

Cue Crash Davis speech number 9.

Ol' No. 2
05-31-2006, 04:59 PM
Does anyone know what happens to Anderson's suspension if he gets sent down?

Hitmen77
05-31-2006, 05:07 PM
Does anyone know what happens to Anderson's suspension if he gets sent down?

I'm guessing it will be waiting for him when he gets called back up.

Daver
05-31-2006, 05:08 PM
Does anyone know what happens to Anderson's suspension if he gets sent down?

He has serve it upon recall, or drop his appeal and serve it before being sent down.

maurice
06-01-2006, 11:01 AM
Well for one, you didn't ask me any questions

I requested your definition of a term that you used to describe Mackowiak. No reasonable person would describe Mackowiak using that term, so I asked you to explain what you think it means (rather than simply taking a shot at you). I'm still waiting for the answer.

jenn2080
06-01-2006, 11:58 AM
I dont think it is time to throw in the towel on Brian just yet. The kid cant buy a hit right now but he is getting some ok at bats. He has a solid offense. I think he could use a few days out of the line up. The suspension will be good for him.

SBSoxFan
06-01-2006, 12:06 PM
I think we should tell him there's a 234+ post thread about him on WSI. That should boost his confidence! :redneck

Lprof
06-01-2006, 08:41 PM
I hope not.

As much as I like Mackowiak, he is not a centerfielder by any stretch of the imagination. That's not his fault, but he just isn't in my uneducated opinion.

Ozuna and Gload in the OF is an even scarier proposition.

Anderson needs to get his bat going, no question. But the Sox desperately need his glove out there.No team wins the world series with a starting center fielder hitting .160; it's as simple as that. I cannot believe Kenny was so reckless over the winter as not to have an effective Plan B (this is NOT second guessing; I was screaming about it at the time). Don't get me wrong; I think Kenny is great, and he made some magnificent moves over the winter. This one, however, is Jim Henry-like: Assuming the best case scenario, without preparing for the worst.

jabrch
06-01-2006, 09:02 PM
No team wins the world series with a starting center fielder hitting .160; it's as simple as that. I cannot believe Kenny was so reckless over the winter as not to have an effective Plan B (this is NOT second guessing; I was screaming about it at the time). Don't get me wrong; I think Kenny is great, and he made some magnificent moves over the winter. This one, however, is Jim Henry-like: Assuming the best case scenario, without preparing for the worst.

Mackowiak IS an effective plan B. He's hitting .273 with a .363 OBP and playing OK defense. List the teams out there with a better bacup CF than he. There are not THAT many of them.

Grzegorz
06-01-2006, 09:47 PM
No team wins the world series with a starting center fielder hitting .160; it's as simple as that.

Anderson is hardly the only issue with this team.

Daver
06-01-2006, 09:53 PM
No team wins the world series with a starting center fielder hitting .160; it's as simple as that. I cannot believe Kenny was so reckless over the winter as not to have an effective Plan B (this is NOT second guessing; I was screaming about it at the time). Don't get me wrong; I think Kenny is great, and he made some magnificent moves over the winter. This one, however, is Jim Henry-like: Assuming the best case scenario, without preparing for the worst.

How many NL teams have had a pitcher hitting over .160 when they won a world series?

Brian26
06-01-2006, 10:01 PM
Mackowiak IS an effective plan B. He's hitting .273 with a .363 OBP and playing OK defense. List the teams out there with a better bacup CF than he. There are not THAT many of them.

You posted this before the embarrassing play we just saw about 20 minutes ago, right? We need a guy out there that can play defense. I don't care what he's hitting.

JB98
06-01-2006, 11:20 PM
You posted this before the embarrassing play we just saw about 20 minutes ago, right? We need a guy out there that can play defense. I don't care what he's hitting.

I think BA should be sent down. BUT, I'll tell you this much, this platoon **** is not good for BA, and it's not good for the Sox. Either he needs to play every day so we can benefit from his outstanding defense (offense be damned), or he needs to go down, work on his swing, get his confidence back and come back up in a few weeks ready to kick some ass.

Sitting on the bench at the big-league level doesn't do Brian much good, IMO.

beckett21
06-01-2006, 11:32 PM
I think BA should be sent down. BUT, I'll tell you this much, this platoon **** is not good for BA, and it's not good for the Sox. Either he needs to play every day so we can benefit from his outstanding defense (offense be damned), or he needs to go down, work on his swing, get his confidence back and come back up in a few weeks ready to kick some ass.

Sitting on the bench at the big-league level doesn't do Brian much good, IMO.
That I agree with. (re: platoon)

Play him or send him down to get regular AB's.

oeo
06-02-2006, 12:15 AM
I say play him. Mackowiak isn't doing anything spectacular with the bat, and he's making terrible plays that arguably cost us a couple of games (Flubs and Jays). I'll take Brian's current offensive struggles over butcher plays in CF.

peeonwrigley
06-02-2006, 02:29 AM
I say play him. Mackowiak isn't doing anything spectacular with the bat, and he's making terrible plays that arguably cost us a couple of games (Flubs and Jays). I'll take Brian's current offensive struggles over butcher plays in CF.

I agree with the play him sentiment.

However, if he's not going to start then send him back to Charlotte. He needs the ABs.

logansquaresox
06-02-2006, 09:46 AM
Palehose Six in fine form on this subject. Linky. (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7577/1975/1600/chickenfight.jpg)

Made me laugh out loud.

kwolf68
06-02-2006, 10:22 AM
Unless Brian Anderson is one of our clods in the bullpen then he isn't the problem. Our pen is absolutely killing this team this year.

jongarlandlover
06-02-2006, 04:10 PM
Palehose Six in fine form on this subject. Linky. (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7577/1975/1600/chickenfight.jpg)

Made me laugh out loud.

haha. that made me laugh. :D:

Madscout
06-05-2006, 04:52 PM
I seem to remember a certain third baseman that couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag a few years ago that suddenly came up with clutch hitting in the post season. We kept him for his defense. Why not Anderson?

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2006, 04:57 PM
I seem to remember a certain third baseman that couldn't hit his way out of a paper bag a few years ago that suddenly came up with clutch hitting in the post season. We kept him for his defense. Why not Anderson?If Anderson was hitting as well as Crede did then, no one would be complaining.

ShoelessJoeS
06-05-2006, 05:04 PM
If Anderson was hitting as well as Crede did then, no one would be complaining.I wouldn't call .220-.260 well, but you're right. I think it's his overall lack of production with RISP that everyone is so upset about. I mean, he can hit .170 all he wants if he can knock in those runners...but he's not. He has to be leading the league in non-productive outs with the bases loaded (if a stat even existed). But I love the guy for his D, and I think he should be our starter. Sending him down to AAA will do no good, as he needs to see Major League pitching. He's already succeeded in the minors.

voodoochile
06-05-2006, 05:08 PM
I wouldn't call .220-.260 well, but you're right. I think it's his overall lack of production with RISP that everyone is so upset about. I mean, he can hit .170 all he wants if he can knock in those runners...but he's not. He has to be leading the league in non-productive outs with the bases loaded (if a stat even existed). But I love the guy for his D, and I think he should be our starter. Sending him down to AAA will do no good, as he needs to see Major League pitching. He's already succeeded in the minors.

Crede backed it up with some power. If BA were on pace for .220/20/60 right now, no one would be griping.