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Whitesox4ever
05-23-2006, 01:19 PM
This poll is from ESPN

What is the biggest blunder in White Sox franchise history?

1917: Sox replace first baseman Jacques Fournier with Chick Gandil.
Gandil was the lesser player and the Black Sox ringleader.
1959-1960: Bill Veeck trades prospects for veterans.
Off went Norm Cash, Johnny Callison, and others, and away went three or four pennants.
1981: Letting broadcaster Harry Caray get away.
Cubs win! Sox lose!
1985: Hiring broadcaster Hawk Harrelson as general manager.
In just one season, Harrelson managed to turn Carlton Fisk into a left fielder AND fire Tony La Russa.
1992: Trading Sammy Sosa to Cubs for George Bell.
Must anything else be said?

WinOrDyeTrying
05-23-2006, 01:43 PM
Trading Rowand

Baby Fisk
05-23-2006, 01:50 PM
Trading for over-the-hill egomaniac Ron Santo in 1973. :angry:

RKMeibalane
05-23-2006, 01:51 PM
The Black Sox scandal.

kwolf68
05-23-2006, 01:51 PM
Letting tony larussa go should be added to the mix.

spiffie
05-23-2006, 01:57 PM
Letting tony larussa go should be added to the mix.
That's folded into the abomination that was Hawk's run as GM.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2006, 02:06 PM
Good question...like with every other franchise you can always play the 'what if' game.

To me these are the three biggest:

1. What If the 'Black Sox' had never occured? (Historian Rich Lindberg stated that if it hadn't, the Yankee Dynasty would never have begun since the Sox had the talent to play Ruth & company plus the 'lively ball' era wouldn't have been pushed by the owners, playing into the White Sox strenght's.)

2. What If the Sox hadn't made those deals after 1959? (Had the Sox won the pennant in either 1964 or 1967 or both, the late 60's collapse would have never taken place. Therefore the near moving of the franchise wouldn't have happened. The franchise wouldn't have fallin into the dire straights that it had become by 1970.)

3. What If the DeBartolo family got the team in 1981 as Bill Veeck wanted it? (You can think one of two things...either DeBartolo and his family would have been scandel ridden due to the gambling / mob alligations or they would have spent a fortune bringing multiple World Series crowns to the South Side which is what happened when the family got the 49'ers after being stopped in their bid to get the Sox.)

Lip

RealMenWearBlack
05-23-2006, 02:28 PM
Selling Babe Ruth to the Yankees. But seriously, of the choices I'd probably say the Bill Veeck trades.

1917
05-23-2006, 02:36 PM
The White Flag trade of 1997

mrfourni
05-23-2006, 02:40 PM
One Word: Bevington

samram
05-23-2006, 02:47 PM
The Black Sox scandal.

SOXPHILE
05-23-2006, 02:52 PM
The 1970 season

Conceding the city to The Blue Corporation starting in the early 80's through a series of bad PR moves, and mediocre teams.

sageofthesox
05-23-2006, 02:55 PM
Jumping to an obscure UHF television station (channel 32) back in 1968.

Irishsox1
05-23-2006, 02:56 PM
The look and design of Comiskey Park II when it opened in 1991. It has improved a lot over the years with all the changes, but when Camden Yards opened in 1992, it made the new Comiskey look like a sterile turd!

BRDSR
05-23-2006, 02:56 PM
The White Flag trade of 1997

Are you kidding me?! That trade accounted for the single greatest closer we've ever had in Keith Foulke!

1919 Black Sox scandal, which could easily be said to be the worst thing ever to happen in the history of baseball, let alone in the White Sox organization. Only the steroid era rivals it.

Nellie_Fox
05-23-2006, 02:57 PM
Jumping to an obscure UHF television station (channel 32) back in 1968.Bingo.

digdagdug23
05-23-2006, 03:33 PM
Unleashing the demons from hell (Squirrels and seagulls) during Frank's return, and not during the Flubs game.

PaleHoseFan
05-23-2006, 03:40 PM
Billy Koch - ugh!

1917
05-23-2006, 03:40 PM
[quote=BRDSR]Are you kidding me?! That trade accounted for the single greatest closer we've ever had in Keith Foulke!

And then trading that great closer Foulke for Billy Koch

johnr1note
05-23-2006, 03:49 PM
What If the 'Black Sox' had never occured? (Historian Rich Lindberg stated that if it hadn't, the Yankee Dynasty would never have begun since the Sox had the talent to play Ruth & company plus the 'lively ball' era wouldn't have been pushed by the owners, playing into the White Sox strenght's.)

Lip

This is a most interesting question. But I think Mr. Lindberg is being too much of a homer to predict that had the "Black Sox" stayed together as a team, they would have outduelled the Ruth-lead Yankees. They might have offered more competition than the flapper-era Yankee teams got, but I still think those Yankee teams of the 20s would have been hard to beat. But it is interesting to think how history and the eventual evolution of the White Sox franchise would have been different. For the sake of argument, let's say the scandal never happened, and the Sox won the 1919 series, and the 1920 series too (they were on the brink of the pennant in 1920 when the "8 men out" got suspended). The Yankees didn't get revved up until 1921, and couldn't overcome the Giants until 1923. The Joe Jackson-led Sox could have been in the cat bird seat for the early 20s, and probably would have been the team to beat for the Yankees in 1921-23, instead of weaker Cleveland, Washington, Detroit and St. Louis teams.

But the larger questions is not only what would have happened on the field, but off. Without the scandal, there would not have been a need for an all powerful commissioner. Comiskey was a part of a powerful group of AL owners who were in the process of dethroning Ban Johnson. Charles Comiskey, influential as he was, could have become the dean of baseball owners (rather than the shell of a man the scandal made him into) instead of the owners of the Yankees and Giants. Comiskey could have had more raw power in baseball circles than any owner ever had. With the "team to beat" at a time when great prosperity was rolling through America, the White Sox could have turned in to the "cadillac" product, and given the Yankees a run for thier money. I still think those late 20s Yankee teams would have been tough to beat, though.

It boggles the mind how history could have been different.

Daver
05-23-2006, 03:50 PM
The Sportsvision fiasco, that basically lost them a huge chunk of the fanbase could be viewed as worse than promoting Ken Harrellson to GM, but the argument could be made either way.

It as all overshadowed by Charles Comiskey being enough of a tightwad to make his players think throwing a World Series would be a good idea.

Palehose13
05-23-2006, 03:52 PM
Allowing kids to announce the players before they come to bat. :redneck

roylestillman
05-23-2006, 03:54 PM
Jumping to an obscure UHF television station (channel 32) back in 1968.

Absolutely. The Jack Dreese on Channel 44. Then follow it with the ill-conceived Sportsvision (remember trying to watch the scrambled picture through the snow and black lines?)

Law11
05-23-2006, 03:56 PM
Facing the new park at the projects indstead of facing that awsome skyline

ode to veeck
05-23-2006, 03:59 PM
Jumping to an obscure UHF television station (channel 32) back in 1968.

Back before anyone had UHF (like 1 in 10 TVs). The effect was a double whammy when the Cubs were briefly more competitive than the Sox from '69-early 70s. The TV situation started the slow ascent of the Flubs which continued up until the WS last year.

Follow that up a decade later with the Sportsvision / ONTV fiasco, again misreading the large Chicago market, a move lead by TV expert Eddie Einhorn

Follow that up yet again by moving off WGN again

The strike of '94 really hurt the Sox more than most because they were on track to go far in the playoffs that didn't happen and because of JR's driving role on the owners' side

Trading Harry Carry for the Hawk, Drysdale, and Ribbie and Rhubarb (we lost 4 times on that one)

In recent years, the big trade of several for Ritchie, but since then KW's done an amazingly great job as GM

ode to veeck
05-23-2006, 04:02 PM
Allowing the old Comiskey Park to fall into disrepair until it had to be replaced. The Allyns, Veeck, and current owners all had a hand in it, but JR never liked the place, which was unfortunate because of all the history the place had, not only for the Sox, but the Negro leagues, boxing, etc, a large missed opportunity there. Nonetheless JR got a great deal on the Cell

soxfan26
05-23-2006, 04:03 PM
It's gotta be that silly exploding scoreboard.

Chip Z'nuff
05-23-2006, 04:06 PM
Nonetheless JR got a great deal on the Cell

The Cell is really starting to feel like home lately.

ode to veeck
05-23-2006, 04:08 PM
The Cell is really starting to feel like home lately.

The revised upper deck helps a lot

vegyrex
05-23-2006, 04:08 PM
Charles Comiskey not paying Ed Cicotte his $10,000 bonus.

JohnBasedowYoda
05-23-2006, 04:09 PM
The Cell is really starting to feel like home lately.

Being 24 and having last been to Old Comiskey when I was 7 or 8 it's really the only home I know!

mcfish
05-23-2006, 04:28 PM
Billy Koch - ugh!Seriously? The worst ever? A total of 7 blown saved and 6 losses over a season and 1/4 and he's worse than anything else to have ever happened to the Sox? I loved getting rid of him as much as the next guy, but to say he was the worst thing ever to happen to the Sox is just insane.

In fact, I would happily bet that Demaso Marte cost us more games than Koch did, not to mention Mike Jackson to focus on recent relievers.

SouthSide_HitMen
05-23-2006, 05:08 PM
This poll is from ESPN

What is the biggest blunder in White Sox franchise history?

1917: Sox replace first baseman Jacques Fournier with Chick Gandil.
Gandil was the lesser player and the Black Sox ringleader.
1959-1960: Bill Veeck trades prospects for veterans.
Off went Norm Cash, Johnny Callison, and others, and away went three or four pennants.
1981: Letting broadcaster Harry Caray get away.
Cubs win! Sox lose!
1985: Hiring broadcaster Hawk Harrelson as general manager.
In just one season, Harrelson managed to turn Carlton Fisk into a left fielder AND fire Tony La Russa.
1992: Trading Sammy Sosa to Cubs for George Bell.
Must anything else be said?

I might be in the minority here (wouldn't be the first time :redneck ) but I liked when Hawk fired LaRussa. Alderson built the A's team and LaRussa gagged two of the three World Series - all three as heavy (steroid aided) favorites.

He reached one World Series in the horse**** National League even though he again is aided by one of the best GMs in the game as well as one of the largest payrolls in their league. He again had poor playoff results - the years he managed to beat out the Cubs and other dreg that makes up the NL Central.

Sosa was a prospect with terrible on field base running / fielding decisions. He had raw talent but steroids is what made him into "Sammy Sosa".

You can second guess the 1959 offseason trades but then again it is always easier to judge deals after the fact.

What if Thome was injured this season or what if Chris Young becomes a great player?

The biggest blunder is not a trade or Hawk but rather Charles Comiskey being such a cheap owner as he screwed over his players. His penny wise pound foolish method of running things destroyed a World Series quality team and the White Sox never recovered until the next century. Nothing else is remotely close.

itsnotrequired
05-23-2006, 05:14 PM
In fact, I would happily bet that Demaso Marte cost us more games than Koch did, not to mention Mike Jackson to focus on recent relievers.

When Mike Jackson came in, I turned the TV off.

CHEESESOXER
05-23-2006, 06:01 PM
Not having the Sox on a cable station so I can watch them here in cheeseville.:mad:

SCarolina_Ron
05-23-2006, 06:33 PM
Definitely not the worst but you have to add trading Gossage, Forster, Dent and Downing in the mid 70's to the list.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2006, 06:37 PM
Not beating in the brains of Paul Byrd in Game 1 of the ALCS.

We'll just have to make up for it this year.

:cool:

Hitmen77
05-23-2006, 06:41 PM
Facing the new park at the projects indstead of facing that awsome skyline

Really? This is the worst blunder in Sox history? You really think - all other things being the same about the Sox and the park's design - that the direction of park faces really affected attendance? I doubt it. I think this is an issue that has been oversold in the press over the last 15 years to the point that some of us really believe this was a big problem.

Hitmen77
05-23-2006, 06:48 PM
It's difficult for me to separate the blunders that are generations apart. How do I compare the Black Sox mess to Veeck's post-'59 trades or all the stuff that happened in the Reinsdorf era.

The best I can come up with is a list of blunders in my lifetime.

- Moving the Sox to PAY TV ($20/month in 1982 $ for only one station!). Likewise, the move off of WGN in the late 60s
- Firing Harry Caray and gift wrapping to the Cubs their basis for taking over the city
- Handing Sosa over to the Cubs, which allows them to further take over the city.
- Building a generic ballpark just before the wave of retroparks
- Strike of '94 cancels possible pennant season, decimates fanbase
- White Flag trade further decimates fanbase

Hitmen77
05-23-2006, 06:55 PM
To be fair, I also want to list the BEST moves by the Sox in recent memory:

- Signing Fisk in '81 (brought instant credibility to a team that had become a laughingstock starting in '78)
- Drafting McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, and Fernandez in successive years
- Keeping the Sox in the city instead of building a park in Addison.
- Renovating Comiskey II in a way that far exceeded most people's expectations
- Hiring KW over Danny Evans. Who was happy with this choice at the time? I wasn't.
- Hiring Ozzie Guillen. Again, short sighted me thought this was a dumb move at the time.
- Letting Maggs go and using the $$$ to get Dye, AJ, El Duque, and Iguchi.
- and finally......

WINNING THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!:bandance:

StockdaleForVeep
05-23-2006, 07:42 PM
This poll is from ESPN

What is the biggest blunder in White Sox franchise history?

1917: Sox replace first baseman Jacques Fournier with Chick Gandil.
Gandil was the lesser player and the Black Sox ringleader.
1959-1960: Bill Veeck trades prospects for veterans.
Off went Norm Cash, Johnny Callison, and others, and away went three or four pennants.
1981: Letting broadcaster Harry Caray get away.
Cubs win! Sox lose!
1985: Hiring broadcaster Hawk Harrelson as general manager.
In just one season, Harrelson managed to turn Carlton Fisk into a left fielder AND fire Tony La Russa.
1992: Trading Sammy Sosa to Cubs for George Bell.
Must anything else be said?

Gandil-in the three seasons he was with the sox, the sox won 100 games and made 2 apperances in the world series. The issue wasnt Gandil, the issue was Comiskey and his business practices, Gandill or not, the sox were pissed off at the time.
Sosa-this is like saying how stupid are the blackhawks for trading Hasek. Hasek wasnt amazing with the hawks, just like sosa was not amazing with the cubs(and if u wanna judge by picture, not on roids at the time) Had we kept sosa it would had kept out ordonez possibly because why would we want two young outfielders which we could only develop one?

jongarlandlover
05-23-2006, 08:53 PM
i'd have to say the black sox scandal.

and to be honest, a lot of this stuff...i'm way too young to know/remember a lot of it. :tongue:

Railsplitter
05-23-2006, 09:02 PM
Grace Comiskey giving 54% of the club stock to Dorthy instead of Chuck

McCuddy
05-23-2006, 09:51 PM
1992: Trading Sammy Sosa to Cubs for George Bell.
Must anything else be said?

Yes, something should be said. George Bell played on a division winner in 1993. That would be the same number of division titles the Cubs got out of Sosa.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2006, 10:28 PM
Bell had 112 RBI's in 1992. He actually led the Sox, not Thomas that season. And he had I think around 65 or so including ten in a three game set at Detroit in 1993. Not bad for a guy who missed time with (I think) a thigh injury.

Lip

mcfish
05-24-2006, 09:12 AM
Not beating in the brains of Paul Byrd in Game 1 of the ALCS.

We'll just have to make up for it this year.

:cool:My goodness is he ugly. I had to turn away from the tv after a while with all of the close ups they were giving him.

Railsplitter
05-24-2006, 09:30 AM
Yes, something should be said. George Bell played on a division winner in 1993. That would be the same number of division titles the Cubs got out of Sosa.

But Sosa would have been in a line up with Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura had he stayed with the Sox. We'll never know, will we?

McCuddy
05-24-2006, 09:38 AM
But Sosa would have been in a line up with Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura had he stayed with the Sox. We'll never know, will we?

Sosa's lifetime American League numbers (3 1/2 seasons) amount to 12 HR's a year and a whopping .226 average. We'd have to assume that whatever it was that prompted him to start hitting the longball after the trade made its way into the Sox clubhouse.

California Sox
05-24-2006, 11:00 AM
I flew all the way to Chicago to see last night's game and after that experience I'd say acquiring Javier Vazquez.

BNLSox
05-24-2006, 11:13 AM
How can the Sosa trade now be seen as a blunder? During the 90's I think we all were scratching our heads wishing that hadn't happened. But now knowing what we know and seeing what that cheater did to decimate an already pitiful franchise with his tenure on the northside, I think, while in terms of production this was an awful trade, it saved our team from a huge cancerous presence.

Biggest blunders are not paying the players on the 1919 squad what they were due and the trades of the 60's. Both ruined what could have been dynasties. But then again, many of us wouldn't have fallen in love with a team that had been historically very successful. And 2005 would have just been another feather in the cap, not an unforgettable, so sweet we can't stop celebrating moment.

So screw hindsight.

fuzzy_patters
05-24-2006, 11:46 AM
This isn't the biggest blunder the White Sox have made. Nothing compares to 1919, but I am surprised that no one has mentioned the demotion of Don Cooper in 1996. IIRC, Coop was only given a month or two before the Sox made him their roving pitching instructor and hired Jackie Brown (or was it Mike Pazik?) to replace him. How many World Series would we have won by now had Cooper been our pitching coach for the last 10 years instead of 3? Certainly, the 2000 team would have had a chance, at least.

Chip Z'nuff
05-24-2006, 11:53 AM
But Sosa would have been in a line up with Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura had he stayed with the Sox. We'll never know, will we?

Thank your lucky stars the Sosa era was on the north side. If he did what he did down here, the whole Sox organization would have been burned at the stake during this witch hunt.

Lip Man 1
05-24-2006, 11:57 AM
Well on the subject of a lineup featuring Sosa, Thomas and Ventura....how about adding Mark McGwire?

From Jack McDowell's WSI Interview:

JM: "That’s tough to say. I know that Mark McGwire wanted to come here. He called me three times in about a ten day period after the 1991 season. He asked me about the other guys in the clubhouse, about the coaching staff and about the city of Chicago. I honestly felt we were going to get him. I called Robin (Ventura) to let him know what was going on and I remember he was excited. He told me ‘alright...we’re going to kick ass.’ The Sox then asked Frank (Thomas) if he’d go to DH full time so that Mark could play first and he said no."

Lip

MVP
05-24-2006, 12:00 PM
Having the vast majority of their games on cable back when a whole lot of people didn't even have cable. This, while the Cubs had all their games on WGN- where their games were on regular tv in Chicago and could be viewed all over the world by cable subscribers.

If not for WGN, Harry Carry may still have been a hall of fame broadcaster, but he would not have been the 'bigger than life' character that people made him out to be nationally. (Even if Harry Carry had stayed with the Sox, the Cubs would still be viewed all over the world, while the Sox would only ocassionally be viewed locally. You could've had anyone broadcating the Cub games back then and their fan base would have still increased, to the White Sox detriment.)

A similar thing could also be said about Wrigley Field. If not for WGN, Wrigley may have been viewed as a nice park by some, even many, but it would not have received almost universal acceptance as a baseball shrine which people must see on a trip to Chicago.

People believe what they're told on tv. The Cubs were on tv every day around the world, while the Sox were not. This alone cost the Sox hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of young fans. Some of that damage cannot be undone. The Sox need to continue to make new young fans. So far, they've been doing a pretty good job, all things considered.

miker
05-24-2006, 06:23 PM
But Sosa would have been in a line up with Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura had he stayed with the Sox. We'll never know, will we?Frank and Shammy in the same clubhouse just screams "clash of egos!"

Daver
05-24-2006, 06:27 PM
This isn't the biggest blunder the White Sox have made. Nothing compares to 1919, but I am surprised that no one has mentioned the demotion of Don Cooper in 1996. IIRC, Coop was only given a month or two before the Sox made him their roving pitching instructor and hired Jackie Brown (or was it Mike Pazik?) to replace him. How many World Series would we have won by now had Cooper been our pitching coach for the last 10 years instead of 3? Certainly, the 2000 team would have had a chance, at least.

Don Cooper returned to the minor leugues at his request, he was not demoted. The Sox made him director of all minor league pitching.

TheKittle
05-24-2006, 06:48 PM
Having the vast majority of their games on cable back when a whole lot of people didn't even have cable. This, while the Cubs had all their games on WGN- where their games were on regular tv in Chicago and could be viewed all over the world by cable subscribers.

If not for WGN, Harry Carry may still have been a hall of fame broadcaster, but he would not have been the 'bigger than life' character that people made him out to be nationally. (Even if Harry Carry had stayed with the Sox, the Cubs would still be viewed all over the world, while the Sox would only ocassionally be viewed locally. You could've had anyone broadcating the Cub games back then and their fan base would have still increased, to the White Sox detriment.)

A similar thing could also be said about Wrigley Field. If not for WGN, Wrigley may have been viewed as a nice park by some, even many, but it would not have received almost universal acceptance as a baseball shrine which people must see on a trip to Chicago.

People believe what they're told on tv. The Cubs were on tv every day around the world, while the Sox were not. This alone cost the Sox hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of young fans. Some of that damage cannot be undone. The Sox need to continue to make new young fans. So far, they've been doing a pretty good job, all things considered.

I think the cable TV angle is overblown. JR's ownership group made some terrible mistakes after they bought the team. Letting Carey go, ripping BV, bashing Comiskey Park, especially after they put a ton of money into fixing up Comiskey Park, the threat to move etc etc. Those more than anything drove fans away.

maurice
05-24-2006, 06:53 PM
McGuire was not a blunder for some of the same reasons listed in the Sosa posts.

Congress: Did you use steroids, Mr. Sosa?
Sosa: No speakee English.
Congress: Did you use steroids, Mr. McGuire?
McGuire: I'm not here to talk about the past.
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

ode to veeck
05-24-2006, 06:59 PM
I think the cable TV angle is overblown. JR's ownership group made some terrible mistakes after they bought the team. Letting Carey go, ripping BV, bashing Comiskey Park, especially after they put a ton of money into fixing up Comiskey Park, the threat to move etc etc. Those more than anything drove fans away.

The TV blunders WERE HUGE in a market that expected free baseball after decades of WGN. Einhorn, the experienced TV exec totally misread the expectations of the Sox market. Nobody was watching them, except those with pirate boxes

PaulDrake
05-24-2006, 07:26 PM
The TV blunders WERE HUGE in a market that expected free baseball after decades of WGN. Einhorn, the experienced TV exec totally misread the expectations of the Sox market. Nobody was watching them, except those with pirate boxes I don't think that it sunk into his head that so many of us grew up with all those free games on WGN and WFLD. Einhorn had an Eastern mindset and it didn't go over well in 1982 Chicago.

Grzegorz
05-24-2006, 08:15 PM
Jumping to an obscure UHF television station (channel 32) back in 1968.

Thank you!!!

Arthur Allyn Jr. took the team off WGN and went instead to Channel 32 in 1968. UHF was new at the time, and only half the TVs could get it.

Clearly, Mr. Allyn didn't get it...

This was the biggest blunder in Chicago White Sox history hands down.

TheKittle
05-24-2006, 08:18 PM
I don't think that it sunk into his head that so many of us grew up with all those free games on WGN and WFLD. Einhorn had an Eastern mindset and it didn't go over well in 1982 Chicago.

I was talking about the fact that the Cubs were on cable TV. I think their popularity due to cable TV is overblown. Didn't the Braves have their games on cable TV too? They won a division in 82 and came close in 83 but then sucked for the rest of the decade. I'm sure the Braves were seen by the same people who saw the cubs on cable.

RealMenWearBlack
05-24-2006, 08:36 PM
31 flags on the replica trophy.

Nellie_Fox
05-24-2006, 09:01 PM
JR's ownership group made some terrible mistakes after they bought the team. Letting Carey go, ripping BV...Harry Caray leaving was also related to the move to pay-TV. Harry said he wanted to be on free TV. I've always thought that he just wanted to get back to the National League.

I had to think about it for a minute to figure out who "BV" was, first because I've never heard Veeck referred to as BV, and second because they never "ripped" him. They said they had the wherewithal to run a "first-class operation" and Veeck got offended. The fact is, Veeck never did run a first-class operation because he was always running the team on a shoestring.

PeteWard
05-24-2006, 09:44 PM
The astro turf infield with the grass outfield

The Two Ronniies: Blomberg & Santo

Not renovating the old park.

TheKittle
05-25-2006, 12:02 AM
Harry Caray leaving was also related to the move to pay-TV. Harry said he wanted to be on free TV. I've always thought that he just wanted to get back to the National League.

I had to think about it for a minute to figure out who "BV" was, first because I've never heard Veeck referred to as BV, and second because they never "ripped" him. They said they had the wherewithal to run a "first-class operation" and Veeck got offended. The fact is, Veeck never did run a first-class operation because he was always running the team on a shoestring.

If you asked BV he would say the new ownership "ripped" him. Guess it just depends upon your perspective.

fuzzy_patters
05-25-2006, 09:02 AM
Don Cooper returned to the minor leugues at his request, he was not demoted. The Sox made him director of all minor league pitching.

I was not aware of that. Why did he request that? Was he afraid that being associated with Bevington would ruin his career? If so, that was a good move. Bevington was a moron.:angry:

PennStater98r
05-25-2006, 11:03 AM
Correct me if I understand what happened in 1994 incorrectly, but didn't JR lead the movement to lockout the players in the 1994 season even though they had a pitching staff of Alvarez, Bere, Fernandez, McDowell and McCaskill as their starters.

Line-up was:

Johnson
Raines
Thomas
Franco
Ventura
D.J.
Karkovice/LaValliere
Cora/Grebeck
Guillen

Only the Yanks and the Expos had better records in MLB - and the 'spos are perhaps a team most harmed by that lockout/strike.

Thoughts?

What if the Sox put up a better showing the the post season than the year before?

Here's another thought:

What if - when Thomas is asked that question - if you could have any player in the league, who would it be? - what if he says Barry Bonds instead of Albert Belle? We know the Sox's stance on playing clean. Would Barry have gotten into 'roids playing next to a guy like Big Hurt?

Last question - what if we go out and pay for Roger Clemens after he'd been cut loose from Boston - instead of Jamie Navarro at the end of 1996?

slobes
05-25-2006, 11:20 AM
Disco Demolition Night

doogiec
05-25-2006, 11:40 AM
Correct me if I understand what happened in 1994 incorrectly, but didn't JR lead the movement to lockout the players in the 1994 season even though they had a pitching staff of Alvarez, Bere, Fernandez, McDowell and McCaskill as their starters.

Line-up was:

Johnson
Raines
Thomas
Franco
Ventura
D.J.
Karkovice/LaValliere
Cora/Grebeck
Guillen

Only the Yanks and the Expos had better records in MLB - and the 'spos are perhaps a team most harmed by that lockout/strike.

Thoughts?

What if the Sox put up a better showing the the post season than the year before?

Here's another thought:

What if - when Thomas is asked that question - if you could have any player in the league, who would it be? - what if he says Barry Bonds instead of Albert Belle? We know the Sox's stance on playing clean. Would Barry have gotten into 'roids playing next to a guy like Big Hurt?

Last question - what if we go out and pay for Roger Clemens after he'd been cut loose from Boston - instead of Jamie Navarro at the end of 1996?

The players went on strike in 1994. The owners opted not to lock them out earlier that season.

Hangar18
05-25-2006, 11:47 AM
Biggest Blunders?
#1 Strike of 1994 and Alienating their own players/fans in favor of strike
#2 Allowing the Tribune for years unchecked, to talk bad about SOX
#3 Never spending the Extra Dollar on very good teams previous to this one

Lip Man 1
05-25-2006, 11:51 AM
Kittle and others:

When talking about the Sox TV history, moving to Channel 32 and SportsVision, this may help provide historical facts:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Also historian Rich Lindberg had this to say aboiut the move in 1968 in his WSI Interview:

ML: You talk of a conversation that you had with Jack Brickhouse about the biggest mistake the Sox ever made in 1968. Tell us about that, what Brickhouse tried to do to stop it and the subsequent fallout effects.

RL: "I talked with Jack about it in an interview in 1996. Jack told me about the time he, Arnie Harris and Sox owner Art Allyn sat down for lunch. Jack expected the Sox to agree to another extension on WGN after their agreement expired after the 1967 season. He was shocked when Allyn told him that the Sox were moving to a basically brand new UHF outlet WFLD (Channel 32 in Chicago). Brickhouse, whom I consider a giant of the broadcasting industry, said he felt sure that something would happen to the industry in the future that would make it possible for WGN to be shown not only in Chicago but around the Midwest, he strongly urged Allyn to reconsider. Allyn wouldn’t, but he had the best interest of the team at heart. You have to look at why the Sox wanted to move in the first place. WGN was basically showing Sox day games on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, they weren’t showing night games because they didn’t want to disrupt their evening schedule. Very few road games were shown and those were only from the East Coast, New York, Cleveland and such. Allyn wanted ALL Sox road games shown and at least WFLD tried to do that. For the first time Sox fans saw the inside of the Oakland Alameda County Coliseum and Anaheim Stadium. The trouble was UHF technology was very new. You had to have a converter box to be able to get the channels on your old TV and it didn’t work very well. The picture was snowy, grainy and unreliable. The other problem was that WFLD decided to have Jack Drees do the games. Dress was an East Coast horse racing guy who wasn’t known in Chicago. Bottom line the experiment just didn’t work."

ML: Did leaving WGN-TV and letting Harry Caray go doom the Sox to an unwinnable position for the fans loyalty?

RL: "I think so. These decisions weren’t just "minor" mistakes...both happened to coincide with a resurgence by the Cubs. For years the Cubs were a dead team, then Leo Durocher came in and things started happening. It was at the same time the Sox left WGN. Then when Harry left after 1981, Chicago started to become more aware of the Wrigley Field area, the stadium started to become a tourist attraction and Cub fortunes went up again. If you think about it, Harry going to the Cubs really showed the power of the Tribune Company. Harry heeled to their demands. He stopped taking shots at the club, at the players, he didn’t have any negativity. He had to because he had no place else to go, where was he going to wind up? Cincinnati? St. Louis??"

Lip

kwolf68
05-25-2006, 01:05 PM
Allowing the old Comiskey Park to fall into disrepair until it had to be replaced. The Allyns, Veeck, and current owners all had a hand in it, but JR never liked the place, which was unfortunate because of all the history the place had, not only for the Sox, but the Negro leagues, boxing, etc, a large missed opportunity there. Nonetheless JR got a great deal on the Cell


Don't forget the legend that was the Chicago Cardinals played there as well. Whaddid they win during the decade of the 1950s? Something like 25 total games? :redneck

The question I am wondering is....Had the Cardinals not left Chicago in 1960, how many now-Bears fans would be Cardinal fans?

SoxFan64
05-25-2006, 01:23 PM
One Word: Bevington

I'm sorry but you can't be over 21 years old to think that having Terry Bevington as our manager is the worst thing ever in our history.

What no Claudell Washington? Ed Stroud? And as bad as those two were they would be hard pressed to make a Top Ten of Sox goofs.

SoxFan64
05-25-2006, 01:33 PM
The biggest blunder is not a trade or Hawk but rather Charles Comiskey being such a cheap owner as he screwed over his players. His penny wise pound foolish method of running things destroyed a World Series quality team and the White Sox never recovered until the next century. Nothing else is remotely close.

That's the ticket.

:comiskey

miker
05-25-2006, 02:24 PM
Being stuck in the same town as the Tribune company softball team.

TheKittle
05-25-2006, 02:59 PM
Kittle and others:

When talking about the Sox TV history, moving to Channel 32 and SportsVision, this may help provide historical facts:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2096

Also historian Rich Lindberg had this to say aboiut the move in 1968 in his WSI Interview:

ML: You talk of a conversation that you had with Jack Brickhouse about the biggest mistake the Sox ever made in 1968. Tell us about that, what Brickhouse tried to do to stop it and the subsequent fallout effects.

RL: "I talked with Jack about it in an interview in 1996. Jack told me about the time he, Arnie Harris and Sox owner Art Allyn sat down for lunch. Jack expected the Sox to agree to another extension on WGN after their agreement expired after the 1967 season. He was shocked when Allyn told him that the Sox were moving to a basically brand new UHF outlet WFLD (Channel 32 in Chicago). Brickhouse, whom I consider a giant of the broadcasting industry, said he felt sure that something would happen to the industry in the future that would make it possible for WGN to be shown not only in Chicago but around the Midwest, he strongly urged Allyn to reconsider. Allyn wouldn’t, but he had the best interest of the team at heart. You have to look at why the Sox wanted to move in the first place. WGN was basically showing Sox day games on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, they weren’t showing night games because they didn’t want to disrupt their evening schedule. Very few road games were shown and those were only from the East Coast, New York, Cleveland and such. Allyn wanted ALL Sox road games shown and at least WFLD tried to do that. For the first time Sox fans saw the inside of the Oakland Alameda County Coliseum and Anaheim Stadium. The trouble was UHF technology was very new. You had to have a converter box to be able to get the channels on your old TV and it didn’t work very well. The picture was snowy, grainy and unreliable. The other problem was that WFLD decided to have Jack Drees do the games. Dress was an East Coast horse racing guy who wasn’t known in Chicago. Bottom line the experiment just didn’t work."

ML: Did leaving WGN-TV and letting Harry Caray go doom the Sox to an unwinnable position for the fans loyalty?

RL: "I think so. These decisions weren’t just "minor" mistakes...both happened to coincide with a resurgence by the Cubs. For years the Cubs were a dead team, then Leo Durocher came in and things started happening. It was at the same time the Sox left WGN. Then when Harry left after 1981, Chicago started to become more aware of the Wrigley Field area, the stadium started to become a tourist attraction and Cub fortunes went up again. If you think about it, Harry going to the Cubs really showed the power of the Tribune Company. Harry heeled to their demands. He stopped taking shots at the club, at the players, he didn’t have any negativity. He had to because he had no place else to go, where was he going to wind up? Cincinnati? St. Louis??"

Lip

I think you should reread my post. I am not talking about when the White Sox moved from WGN to Channel 32. I am talking about the cubs and WGN cable. That's the part that's overblown.

palehozenychicty
05-25-2006, 03:19 PM
1919 Black Sox scandal, which could easily be said to be the worst thing ever to happen in the history of baseball, let alone in the White Sox organization. Only the steroid era rivals it.


Without any doubt, this incident set the franchise tone for a hundred years. People bringing up the Tribune's corporate manipulation, move to pay cable, are cutting the dead tree trunk at the branches. If the scandal doesn't happen, the franchise establishes itself as baseball royalty e.g. Dodgers, Giants, Red Sox, Cardinals, Yankees. Book it.

Chip Z'nuff
05-25-2006, 03:31 PM
Question to sox fans of the 70s and 60s eras was the black sox a big deal before the movie?

Juice16
05-25-2006, 04:03 PM
Well on the subject of a lineup featuring Sosa, Thomas and Ventura....how about adding Mark McGwire?

From Jack McDowell's WSI Interview:

JM: "That’s tough to say. I know that Mark McGwire wanted to come here. He called me three times in about a ten day period after the 1991 season. He asked me about the other guys in the clubhouse, about the coaching staff and about the city of Chicago. I honestly felt we were going to get him. I called Robin (Ventura) to let him know what was going on and I remember he was excited. He told me ‘alright...we’re going to kick ass.’ The Sox then asked Frank (Thomas) if he’d go to DH full time so that Mark could play first and he said no."

Lip

Interesting quote but why couldn't McGwire DH full time?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-25-2006, 04:08 PM
Question to sox fans of the 70s and 60s eras was the black sox a big deal before the movie?
No. It didn't really start to heat up until 1986 when Boston managed to blow their world championship (again), watching it zip right between Bill Buckner's legs. That's when insufferable Boston fans really cranked up their "Curse of the Bambino" bull****. Shortly thereafter came Eight Men Out and Field of Dreams. The rest is history... except Sox Fans have never believed in curses, an inconvenient fact for the national media that mostly ignores the Sox--except for the Black Sox curse, of course.

Lip Man 1
05-25-2006, 05:01 PM
Juice:

McGwire was actually a Gold Glove caliber fielder. (In fact he may have won one...) Frank was not a bad fielding first baseman (contrary to what some think) but his problem was he couldn't throw because of a football injury suffered at Auburn. After a while it became a psychological issue with him which is why eventually he said he only wanted to DH.

But at this point in time that Jack was talking about, it wasn't at that stage.

Lip

ode to veeck
05-25-2006, 05:44 PM
Allowing the old Comiskey Park to fall into disrepair until it had to be replaced. The Allyns, Veeck, and current owners all had a hand in it, but JR never liked the place, which was unfortunate because of all the history the place had, not only for the Sox, but the Negro leagues, boxing, etc, a large missed opportunity there. Nonetheless JR got a great deal on the Cell


Don't forget the legend that was the Chicago Cardinals played there as well. Whaddid they win during the decade of the 1950s? Something like 25 total games? :redneck

The question I am wondering is....Had the Cardinals not left Chicago in 1960, how many now-Bears fans would be Cardinal fans?

My Dad for one, who had been a season ticket holder for the Cardinals back in the day cause you were outta luck trying to be a new season ticket holder back in the 40s/50s. My Dad then followed the Cards to Az about 25 years after they went. He never stopped being a Bears fan though.

Back to the how the Sox ****ed up thread ...

TheKittle
05-25-2006, 05:51 PM
Juice:

McGwire was actually a Gold Glove caliber fielder. (In fact he may have won one...) Frank was not a bad fielding first baseman (contrary to what some think) but his problem was he couldn't throw because of a football injury suffered at Auburn. After a while it became a psychological issue with him which is why eventually he said he only wanted to DH.

But at this point in time that Jack was talking about, it wasn't at that stage.

Lip

Yes Steroid Mac won a Gold Glove in 90. But look at these stats from 90-93

1990 156 games 39hr 108 rbis.

1991 154 games 22 hr 75 rbis.

1992 139 games 42 hr 104 rbis

1993 27 games 9 hr 24 rbis.

Signing Steroid Mac after the 91 season, when his power numbers dropped may not have been the best idea, especially considering the White Sox still had Steroid Sammy and his "potential"

TommyJohn
05-25-2006, 07:53 PM
Question to sox fans of the 70s and 60s eras was the black sox a big deal before the movie?

I recall it being hardly mentioned. In 1983, when they won the AL West,
the emphasis was on the 1959 club, the last to make the World Series,
which only made sense. I don't even think it was mentioned in 1993.
It wasn't until the late 90's that I remember media people talking about
it, suggesting that it was "punishment" from the "baseball gods." It would
be about the time that people who had seen the movies would get older
and start working in the media.

Of course, as PHG said, it also coincided with the insufferable Boston fans
demanding that the world feel sorry for them because of the ceaseless
pain, agony, heartbreak and suffering they had to endure from the great
villians of mankind Bucky, Buck and the NY Yankees in particular. So the
attitude was "poor Red Sox. They are suffering so much under the curse
of the Bambino. Unlike the White Sox, who brought their suffering on
themselves." Until the 1990's I never heard any curse BS.

And is it me or has the collective IQ of many baseball fans (not all, but
many) dropped significantly since then?

gaelhound
05-25-2006, 08:15 PM
Facing the new park at the projects indstead of facing that awsome skyline Is there someone specific to blame for this grotesque error?

Daver
05-25-2006, 08:31 PM
Is there someone specific to blame for this grotesque error?

The City of Chicago planning commision had a part in it.

Wsoxmike59
05-25-2006, 09:15 PM
Is there someone specific to blame for this grotesque error?

In the video Building A New Tradition they explain the Sox and HOK did a wind pattern study on the city of Chicago. It was all pretty scientific stuff and it was decided that the park would play more to the hitters needs if they faced it in the opposite direction of old Comiskey (Home Plate in the SW corner of the field as opposed the the NW corner where it was at old Comiskey)

I don't know how true that statement is......but it's what they said on the Tape. :smile:

Brian26
05-25-2006, 09:28 PM
You really think - all other things being the same about the Sox and the park's design - that the direction of park faces really affected attendance? I doubt it. I think this is an issue that has been oversold in the press over the last 15 years to the point that some of us really believe this was a big problem.

I hate this argument too. The skyline would only be visible from the upper reaches of the upper deck. If you were sitting in the lower bowl, you wouldn't be able to see it at all. It's not like the Park is in the south loop and the Sears Tower is right over the left field wall.