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Bmr31
02-01-2002, 07:25 PM
Are you guys nuts?????? While lofton may be getting old, id rather have a old lofton over anything we have had in CF in a long time! This was an excellent pick up!

34rancher
02-01-2002, 07:28 PM
Ditto

Fisk Fan
02-01-2002, 07:28 PM
I only pray to God that he returns to his old form, and does not resemble the player from last year....

34rancher
02-01-2002, 07:32 PM
Yeah, because last year, he sucked while his team kicked our butts and went to the playoffs. Tell you what I hope that he sucks, and we go to the playoffs.

Bmr31
02-01-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
I only pray to God that he returns to his old form, and does not resemble the player from last year....

when is the last time we had a true leadoff hitter? And you guys are bitching? wasnt he free? We signed him as a FA correct?

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
when is the last time we had a true leadoff hitter? And you guys are bitching? wasnt he free? We signed him as a FA correct?

Tony Phillips?
I like the move.
Only cost money.
Yes, signed as a free agent.

Bmr31
02-01-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Tony Phillips?
I like the move.
Only cost money.
Yes, signed as a free agent.

looks like an excellent move to me.

Spiff
02-01-2002, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Are you guys nuts?????? While lofton may be getting old, id rather have a old lofton over anything we have had in CF in a long time! This was an excellent pick up!

Haha run for cover, he's gonna explode! He pulls no punches!

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
Haha run for cover, he's gonna explode! He pulls no punches!

LOL!!!! :gulp:

Fisk Fan
02-01-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Tony Phillips?
I like the move.
Only cost money.
Yes, signed as a free agent.

Not exactly true. There is such a thing as "opportunity cost" which is the cost of what we will gain in one year of Lofton, versus what we will lose by not playing Rowand or Borchard. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it is possible that a young player may be able to add something that a veteran might not be able to. Youth, vigor, excitement and enthusiasm go a long way with a team.

Bmr31
02-01-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan


Not exactly true. There is such a thing as "opportunity cost" which is the cost of what we will gain in one year of Lofton, versus what we will lose by not playing Rowand or Borchard. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it is possible that a young player may be able to add something that a veteran might not be able to. Youth, vigor, excitement and enthusiasm go a long way with a team.


thats an uninformed statement. we are trying to win a ring. veterans win rings.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan


Not exactly true. There is such a thing as "opportunity cost" which is the cost of what we will gain in one year of Lofton, versus what we will lose by not playing Rowand or Borchard. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but it is possible that a young player may be able to add something that a veteran might not be able to. Youth, vigor, excitement and enthusiasm go a long way with a team.


I don't think that Aaron Rowand is anything special. There are a lot of guys around like him. I like his attitude, but he's not a great ballplayer.

As for Borchard, he's not ready. I know a lot of you think he is, but he struck out 158 times against AA pitching last season. That alone tells you something. Jeez, how many Ks would he have against real pitching? 200? 250? Don't get me wrong, I like him as much as any of you, but he needs some work. At least he should show that he can hit AAA pitching.

Fisk Fan
02-01-2002, 07:47 PM
thats an uninformed statement. we are trying to win a ring. veterans win rings.

That is an opinion. They are still allowed here, right?

To be honest, if anyone here knew what the secret to winning a World Series was, they would probably be a millionaire and have enough rings to wear one on every finger.

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



thats an uninformed statement. we are trying to win a ring. veterans win rings.

Yeah, like Ray Durham, Frank Thomas,Royce Clayton... now there's some veteran leadership (insert sarcastic tone)

Spiff
02-01-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
thats an uninformed statement. we are trying to win a ring. veterans win rings.

Though it's hard to become a veteran if you never get to play...

NUCatsFan
02-01-2002, 07:52 PM
if we're worse off for the moves made in the past few days. Not really. Kenny Lofton, right now, is probably just as good as Singleton, assuming KL is realtively healthy. KL will fill our gaping hole leading off, allows Ray to move to a more comfortable 2, makes sure Manos doesn't play the outfield (sorry guys, he was pretty bad there). The only problem we still have is the Crede/Valentin/Clayton situation, which won't be settled until Spring Training. My hope is that Crede plays really well, forcing JM to play him at 3B, and have Valentin and Clayton platoon at SS, which Manos playing the occasional 3B to spell Crede.

Overall, though, we're no worse off than we were on Monday.

NUCatsFan
02-01-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan


That is an opinion. They are still allowed here, right?

To be honest, if anyone here knew what the secret to winning a World Series was, they would probably be a millionaire and have enough rings to wear one on every finger.

What was that about King George?

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by NUCatsFan


What was that about King George?

Well, to be honest, Stenbrenner has two things going for him - 1) Brian Cashman, who not only has a blank check but knows how to effectively spend that money. He doesn't get nearly enough credit and 2) extraordinary luck. When's the last time that an everyday starter or pitcher for the Yankees has gone down to injury for a significant amount of time?

Spiff
02-01-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, to be honest, Stenbrenner has two things going for him - 1) Brian Cashman, who not only has a blank check but knows how to effectively spend that money. He doesn't get nearly enough credit and 2) extraordinary luck. When's the last time that an everyday starter or pitcher for the Yankees has gone down to injury for a significant amount of time?

Jimmy Key might have had a hangnail in 1995 or somethin...

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


Jimmy Key might have had a hangnail in 1995 or somethin...

ROFL!!!

34rancher
02-01-2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


Yeah, like Ray Durham, Frank Thomas,Royce Clayton... now there's some veteran leadership (insert sarcastic tone)

I don't know 3 division titles in 9 years isn't too bad. It could be worse, we could be the Cubs. LOL

CLR01
02-01-2002, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Are you guys nuts?????? While lofton may be getting old, id rather have a old lofton over anything we have had in CF in a long time! This was an excellent pick up!


I see those anger management classes are paying off.

WinningUgly!
02-01-2002, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31
Are you guys nuts?????? While lofton may be getting old, id rather have a old lofton over anything we have had in CF in a long time! This was an excellent pick up!

I love it! I really think Lofton will bounce back from his down season last year. I look at his 2001 season much like I do Jose Valentin's...both guys were trying to play through injuries for a good part of the season & both guys' offensive number really took a hit as a result. The way I see it we just filled 3 holes for the 2002 season...
1) We now have a real lead off hitter.
2) We have an everyday center fielder
3) We added another, much needed, left handed bat to the lineup.

Hopefully Joe's ready in 2003. It'd be great to see him have a monster spring this year, but I think he's still a year away. I never liked the idea of Singleton or Rowand as our everyday CF & don't even mention Simmons! Rowand will make a solid 4th OFer & should see a decent amount of playing time.

Randar68
02-01-2002, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

As for Borchard, he's not ready. I know a lot of you think he is, but he struck out 158 times against AA pitching last season. That alone tells you something. Jeez, how many Ks would he have against real pitching? 200? 250? Don't get me wrong, I like him as much as any of you, but he needs some work. At least he should show that he can hit AAA pitching.


ahem, speaking of uninformed statements...

cheeses_h_rice
02-01-2002, 11:29 PM
The only thing I like about the Lofton signing is that it's not costing the Sox much, just like the Canseco deal.

Let's hope last year was an aberration for Kenny.

I'd still like to see the Sox actually trying to develop a future CF this year, though. This move just smacks of Flubbie-ism.

Randar68
02-01-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
The only thing I like about the Lofton signing is that it's not costing the Sox much

I was thinking this could cost us a draft pick, but realized Cleveland didn't offer arbitration...much like us with David Wells...

Oh well, good deal....hopefully he gets back to ~.290, if so, his OBP will be around .360.....didn't Ray have a similar OBP last year?

rmusacch
02-01-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



thats an uninformed statement. we are trying to win a ring. veterans win rings.

That is an uninformed statement. Washed up veterans do not win rings. Look at David Wells.

Randar68
02-01-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


That is an uninformed statement. Washed up veterans do not win rings. Look at David Wells.

Hindsight is 20/20, you should know better....

BTW, please explain to me how NY and Arizona won the last few WS's?????

Kilroy
02-01-2002, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
...didn't Ray have a similar OBP last year?

Yeah, but we know Lofton knows how to steal a base. Durham has never quite gotten the hang of it...

WinningUgly!
02-01-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Hindsight is 20/20, you should know better....

BTW, please explain to me how NY and Arizona won the last few WS's?????

By adding washed up veterans like Schilling, Johnson, Mussina, Clemmens, O'neill, Gonzalez, Justice, Williams, etc.

Randar68
02-01-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Yeah, but we know Lofton knows how to steal a base. Durham has never quite gotten the hang of it...

I know Kilroy, just playing the Devil's Advocate

alohafri
02-01-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31


when is the last time we had a true leadoff hitter? And you guys are bitching? wasnt he free? We signed him as a FA correct?



At least we didn't trade half the team for him.


:KW
You will thank me someday, you ingrates!

czalgosz
02-02-2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Randar68



ahem, speaking of uninformed statements...

Okay, since I'm uninformed, inform me. Make me feel better about 158 Ks against minor-league pitching. Explain to me how that even though guys that will never smell the majors can strike him out, he's ready to face major-league pitching.

bc2k
02-02-2002, 02:56 AM
anyone know how much lofton was signed for? Less than 1.4 million?

bc2k
02-02-2002, 03:03 AM
Please disregard my previous post on this thread. I just read a different thread that answered my question. Sorry

voodoochile
02-02-2002, 03:03 AM
I think I read $1.25 million.

AsInWreck
02-02-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



ahem, speaking of uninformed statements...

WHAT ARE you talking about/it is a fact he struck out 158 times in AA last year and any fool knows AA pitching is nowhere near the level he'd be facing in the majors/how is that uninformed?

pearso66
02-02-2002, 04:51 PM
thats what i was thinking, i was like, he did strike out that many times, and major league pitching last time i checked is better than AA. if he comes up this year, im expecting him to lead the majors in strike outs

czalgosz
02-02-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by pearso66
thats what i was thinking, i was like, he did strike out that many times, and major league pitching last time i checked is better than AA. if he comes up this year, im expecting him to lead the majors in strike outs

He'd be Russ Branyan all over again.

WinningUgly!
02-02-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


He'd be Russ Branyan all over again.

I don't like the thought of that!

Randar68
02-03-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


He'd be Russ Branyan all over again.

Exactly what I am talking about....please look up Branyan's minor league career walk total and OBP...

There is a difference between being agressive and wreckless abandon....

K's don't mean Jack squat, OBP means everything. If you think K's mean anything if you hit around .300 with a .380+ OBP, then this conversation is already over....

Vsahajpal
02-03-2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Bmr31



thats an uninformed statement. we are trying to win a ring. veterans win rings.

sounds like Don Baylor

stupid grizzled veterans!

Vsahajpal
02-03-2002, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Exactly what I am talking about....please look up Branyan's minor league career walk total and OBP...

There is a difference between being agressive and wreckless abandon....

K's don't mean Jack squat, OBP means everything. If you think K's mean anything if you hit around .300 with a .380+ OBP, then this conversation is already over....


His learning curve is awfully high, this is a kid who played his first professional season at double A and just wreaked havoc. You look at some of those college guys drafted the same year as Joe, guys like Nady, Utley, Jackson, Parrish, etc. and they are just finishing up A-ball, with at least two years of minor league ball ahead of them. To be able to do what he did (near .900 OPS) while getting acclimated to a new position in the outfield is pretty remarkable.

Personally, I'd love to see Joe in center; will he struggle? Probably, you can expect him to strikeout with great frequency no matter what level he plays at. As Anup Sinha, a teamone scout says, Hes short-to-the-ball, and has pretty good extension past it. His bat-speed is above MLB-average and he has upper-deck power to right and center. Hell strike out a lot on pure aggression.


I disagree...

he has LTP!
not upper-deck...

but I digress.

Strikouts are overrated, as randar alluded to. The bottom line is, he can put up .285/.380/.500.


But in the end, the Sox and many of you think Durham can't hack it leading off, so I suppose Lofton is a nice stopgap.

But if that's truly the case, we'd better see Willie and LTP starting in 2003.

RichH55
02-03-2002, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal



His learning curve is awfully high, this is a kid who played his first professional season at double A and just wreaked havoc. You look at some of those college guys drafted the same year as Joe, guys like Nady, Utley, Jackson, Parrish, etc. and they are just finishing up A-ball, with at least two years of minor league ball ahead of them. To be able to do what he did (near .900 OPS) while getting acclimated to a new position in the outfield is pretty remarkable.

Personally, I'd love to see Joe in center; will he struggle? Probably, you can expect him to strikeout with great frequency no matter what level he plays at. As Anup Sinha, a teamone scout says, Hes short-to-the-ball, and has pretty good extension past it. His bat-speed is above MLB-average and he has upper-deck power to right and center. Hell strike out a lot on pure aggression.


I disagree...

he has LTP!
not upper-deck...

but I digress.

Strikouts are overrated, as randar alluded to. The bottom line is, he can put up .285/.380/.500.


But in the end, the Sox and many of you think Durham can't hack it leading off, so I suppose Lofton is a nice stopgap.

But if that's truly the case, we'd better see Willie and LTP starting in 2003.


Then does Hummel become 3B? And do you bat Willie Lead-off? A lot of pressure to not only be a rookie, but a rookie leading off on a contender

czalgosz
02-03-2002, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Exactly what I am talking about....please look up Branyan's minor league career walk total and OBP...

There is a difference between being agressive and wreckless abandon....

K's don't mean Jack squat, OBP means everything. If you think K's mean anything if you hit around .300 with a .380+ OBP, then this conversation is already over....

If you think that he'll replicate a .380 OBP at the big-league level, you've got another thing coming. There's a big difference between AA pitchers being afraid to pitch to you and major-league pitchers being afraid to pitch to you.

I'm not saying he's not a hot prospect - I would just like to see him get aome AAA at-bats before making him our everyday starting centerfielder.

And tell Brewers fans that Ks don't mean anything...

CerberusWG
02-03-2002, 12:53 PM
Branyan has 220 K's in 550 ABs in the Big Leagues. Yeah, let's see that .380 OBP now.

Vsahajpal
02-03-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


If you think that he'll replicate a .380 OBP at the big-league level, you've got another thing coming. There's a big difference between AA pitchers being afraid to pitch to you and major-league pitchers being afraid to pitch to you.

I'm not saying he's not a hot prospect - I would just like to see him get aome AAA at-bats before making him our everyday starting centerfielder.

And tell Brewers fans that Ks don't mean anything...

He already did tell them:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/

czalgosz
02-03-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


He already did tell them:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/

Randar is Rob Neyer?

Anyway, what you're saying, Vic, is that if he's the Opening Day centerfielder, he'll be able to replicate his AA stats at the big-league level. How does that work? This isn't a dig, I'm just not up on my minor-league conversions.

Vsahajpal
02-03-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Randar is Rob Neyer?

Anyway, what you're saying, Vic, is that if he's the Opening Day centerfielder, he'll be able to replicate his AA stats at the big-league level. How does that work? This isn't a dig, I'm just not up on my minor-league conversions.

no, no, I meant Rob Neyer already told the Brewers.


In any case, I don't believe Joe would be able to put up those numbers initially, but in a year or so, I wouldn't put it past him at all. I do believe he'd be able to surpass the .721 OPS that Lofton accrued last year, and more than likely, he'd put up numbers similar to JD Drew's first full year .250/.335/.420. I don't think he has much to learn at Triple A, that he can't learn with the Sox.


I believe his ml EQA was .240.

czalgosz
02-03-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


no, no, I meant Rob Neyer already told the Brewers.


In any case, I don't believe Joe would be able to put up those numbers initially, but in a year or so, I wouldn't put it past him at all. I do believe he'd be able to surpass the .721 OPS that Lofton accrued last year, and more than likely, he'd put up numbers similar to JD Drew's first full year .250/.335/.420. I don't think he has much to learn at Triple A, that he can't learn with the Sox.


I believe his ml EQA was .240.

Thanks for the info, Vic... That answers a lot of the questions I had. I hope that Lofton will be able to surpass a .721 OPS this year, otherwise the pickup will be a total bust.

I guess the main question is, are we going for it this year or not? If we are, I'd rather see the veterans in the lineup. If this is a rebuilding year, then I'd rather see Crede and Borchard in the lineup, as well.

From the moves that Kenny is making, it seems like he thinks the Sox have a shot at this thing this year. There are two possible scenarios this year. One is that either the Sox are plagued by injury again or a whole bunch of guys underacheive and the Sox are out of it by June again. If that's the case, I'd love to see Borchard and Crede thrown into the everyday lineup, benching Clayton and Lofton, just to see what those guys can do.

The other scenario is that the Sox do well, and they stay in the hunt all season. If that's the case, stay with what works and keep the vets in the lineup. If we start a bunch of rookies this season, and they struggle, we don't have a fallback.

I was initially against the Lofton pickup, but the more I think about it, the more it at least doesn't bother me. The only possible downside to this is Lofton staying in the lineup even if he struggles, and blocks Borchard's ascendancy. But I think the Sox are a lot higher on Borchard than they are on Crede, so that probably won't happen.

A lot of the scouting reports I'm reading on Crede right now are that he hit a wall in AAA last season. That's why I'm not too high on him right now, and why I'm not a member of the "dump Royce" clique here at WSI just yet.

bjmarte
02-03-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

A lot of the scouting reports I'm reading on Crede right now are that he hit a wall in AAA last season. That's why I'm not too high on him right now, and why I'm not a member of the "dump Royce" clique here at WSI just yet.

Way to beat a dead horse :smile:

:mkillcub