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AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 05:06 PM
Who do you expect to see on the opening day 25 man?
Here's my list--(i'm assuming 11 pitchers)

Position players
1. S Alamor C
2. M Johnson C
3. F Thomas dh/1b
4. P Konerko 1b
5. R Durham 2b
6. R clayton ss
7. J Valentin 3b/ss
8. T grafanino UT
9. M Ordonez RF
10.A Rowand cf
11.C Lee Lf
Above pretty obvious/below a bit tricky, but
12.W.Harris UT
13.B Simmons OF
14.J Liefer 3b/1b/LF

Starting Pitching
1. M Buerhle
2. T Ritchie
3. j Garland
4. J Parque
5. G Glover

Relievers
long/spot starter -R Biddle
middle - A Osuna
L Barcelo
K Wunsch
set up - b Howry
closer - k foulke

Just my view, wonder if anyone agrees/disagrees>>>

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:09 PM
Cross Harris off the list now that Lofton is here. I wonder what that does to Brian Simmons?

rmusacch
02-01-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Cross Harris off the list now that Lofton is here. I wonder what that does to Brian Simmons?

I think you cross Brian Simmons off the list. I do not think that Willie Harris makes the roster even without Lofton.

rmusacch
02-01-2002, 05:12 PM
Also, I think that Josh Paul makes the roster over Mark Johnson.

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Cross Harris off the list now that Lofton is here. I wonder what that does to Brian Simmons?

Whoa, i didn;t see that! I say harris still on roster, cross off simmons-- you know how KW likes to showcase his new acquisitions

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Also, I think that Josh Paul makes the roster over Mark Johnson.

I hope not.

Josh was playing well at the end of 2001, but I like MJ better.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


Whoa, i didn;t see that! I say harris still on roster, cross off simmons-- you know how KW likes to showcase his new acquisitions

Well, if Simmons doesn't make the team, he's a free agent. He won't be going back to the minors.

Harris will be in AAA at least to start the season.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Also, I think that Josh Paul makes the roster over Mark Johnson.

Paul making the roster over Mark Johnson was probably the worst roster decision the Sox made last season.

How many options does Mark Johnson have left? Can't be too many. I'd much rather have him than Paul.

cornball
02-01-2002, 07:02 PM
I bet they carry both catchers. I believe there will be other changes before we break. What about Danny Wright, Ginter they also may make the team.

CerberusWG
02-01-2002, 07:20 PM
Catchers- MJ, Sandy
IF- Konerko, Durham, Graffy, Valentin, Crede, Clayton
OF-Lee, Ordonez, Lofton, Rowand
DH-Thomas

SP-
Buehrle
Ritchie
Butter
Garland
Glover

BP-
Foulke
Howry
Osuna
Wunsch
Barcelo
Biddle
Insert guy who never pitches here (Wright, Kohlmeier, Ginter)

BTW Roster was updated on ESPn, and Rauch is there.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/roster?team=chw

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I bet they carry both catchers. I believe there will be other changes before we break. What about Danny Wright, Ginter they also may make the team.

I like those guys too but there's only 25 slots/who would you leave off?

cornball
02-01-2002, 07:40 PM
Thats why he is not done...there will be more moves. Plus you still have Rauch,Malone, Almonte and others. waiting for a chance.
What do you think.

delben91
02-01-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Thats why he is not done...there will be more moves.

Possibly, but who's still out there? I wouldn't mind another starter I guess, and definitely get rid of Royce if possible. Unless it's a quality catcher, I don't know if we could even dream of finding more room for position players.

Plus you still have Rauch,Malone, Almonte and others. waiting for a chance.
What do you think.

Don't bring any of them north with the team. They need time in the minors, even if in Rauch's case it is just sort of rehabilitation time.

rmusacch
02-01-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by delben91


Possibly, but who's still out there? I wouldn't mind another starter I guess, and definitely get rid of Royce if possible. Unless it's a quality catcher, I don't know if we could even dream of finding more room for position players.



Don't bring any of them north with the team. They need time in the minors, even if in Rauch's case it is just sort of rehabilitation time.

I think you trade Royce and Howry to the Dodgers for one of the extra starters that they will have after they sign Ishii.

Randar68
02-01-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I bet they carry both catchers. I believe there will be other changes before we break. What about Danny Wright, Ginter they also may make the team.

I think Ginter, Guerrier, and Wright will all benefit from another year in AAA. Wright needs to get his confidence/control back...

Daver
02-01-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I think Ginter, Guerrier, and Wright will all benefit from another year in AAA. Wright needs to get his confidence/control back...

I still think Wright is more suited to a releivers role,his mechanics on the mound are not what you want out of a starter.Nardi may like it but I don't.

delben91
02-01-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Wright needs to get his confidence/control back...

I may be insane, but I only want Wright to get control to a certain extent. I think he can be very good at being "effectively wild" though 7+ BB games just can't happen.

longshot7
02-01-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


I think you trade Royce and Howry to the Dodgers for one of the extra starters that they will have after they sign Ishii.

they don't have anyone of value to trade us.
Omar Daal and Alex Cora? not gonna happen.

kermittheefrog
02-02-2002, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by daver


I still think Wright is more suited to a releivers role,his mechanics on the mound are not what you want out of a starter.Nardi may like it but I don't.

Actually I've heard a lot of praise for Wright's mechanics. I thought they were solid, better than guys like Kip and Garland. I am very optimistic about Wright, he was inconsistent but a lot of what I saw I liked.

kermittheefrog
02-02-2002, 01:15 AM
This may sound really weird, but does anyone else want Simmons as the 4th outfielder over Rowand? This isn't one of this me hating Rowand things because I think Rowand would make a good 4th outfielder for most teams but think about it this way.

Liefer is pretty much guarenteed a spot based on the way he hit last year and that he's a lefty. Liefer plays the outfielder corners. I think a speed/defense guy would compliment our other outfielders better than a guy like Rowand who's best tool as an outfielder is his bat. And I would really like a guy who is a legit centerfielder rather than two corner guys like Rowand and Liefer. I think we should carry Liefer and Simmons, a bat guy and a glove guy.

Daver
02-02-2002, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Actually I've heard a lot of praise for Wright's mechanics. I thought they were solid, better than guys like Kip and Garland. I am very optimistic about Wright, he was inconsistent but a lot of what I saw I liked. Then we will agree to disagree Kermit,what else is new?,what I see tells me that he is a four to five inning tops pitcher,that has the potential to be a starter,but he will have to do some serious work to do so.He has the tools,but I question his stamina and drive.

But then again what the hell do I know?

czalgosz
02-02-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
This may sound really weird, but does anyone else want Simmons as the 4th outfielder over Rowand? This isn't one of this me hating Rowand things because I think Rowand would make a good 4th outfielder for most teams but think about it this way.

Liefer is pretty much guarenteed a spot based on the way he hit last year and that he's a lefty. Liefer plays the outfielder corners. I think a speed/defense guy would compliment our other outfielders better than a guy like Rowand who's best tool as an outfielder is his bat. And I would really like a guy who is a legit centerfielder rather than two corner guys like Rowand and Liefer. I think we should carry Liefer and Simmons, a bat guy and a glove guy.

I personally would love seeing Simmons over Rowand - The way things are set up, the fourth outfielder won't get many ABs as it is, so it's a waste to keep Rowand on the bench.

The only value I can see with Rowand is that he could spell Lofton against lefties - they pretty much have dominated Lofton the past couple years.

FarWestChicago
02-02-2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
This may sound really weird, but does anyone else want Simmons as the 4th outfielder over Rowand? This isn't one of this me hating Rowand things because I think Rowand would make a good 4th outfielder for most teams but think about it this way.I honestly don't understand the fascination with Rowand. Sure, he plays hard and runs into fences. But, I see things like trade Caballo so Rowand can play and I just don't get it. Rowand is probably going to be a decent player. But, he's not going to be a star.

voodoochile
02-02-2002, 02:02 AM
I take Rowand over Simmons for two reasons. First, at this time in his career, Rowand is a better hitter, and I want a more effective pinch hitter. I think a bench of Graffiano, Leifer, Rowand, Catcher and someone gives the Sox a better offensive mix. If Lofton can still play then we won't need a replacement CF late in games, so either Rowand or Leifer will be fine for defensive replacements.

Second, it gives Simmons a chance to regain some confidence in AAA. He has had some bad luck followed by a really awful stay in Toronto, but at one time he looked like a 5 tool player. Maybe some time in the minors will give him a chance to regain his batting eye and then he can be of more use to the team.

I am tired of deadwood on the bench, and Simmons would be just that...

bc2k
02-02-2002, 02:22 AM
cerberusWG, who is your third starting pitcher? Butter?

SP
Buerhle
Ritchie
Porzio
Glover
Garland

RP
Biddle
Parque
Osuna
unfortunately Howry
Almonte (Edwin, not danny)
Foulke

Alomar
Konerko
Durham
Valentin
Clayton
Lee
Lofton
Ordonez
Thomas

Bench
Graffanino
Liefer
Simmons (only because rowand is too young and good not to play everyday in the minors)
Johnson
Canseco

bc2k
02-02-2002, 02:25 AM
A change in my previous post; subtract canseco, add wunsch. that makes 12 pitchers on my projected staff.

kermittheefrog
02-02-2002, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
cerberusWG, who is your third starting pitcher? Butter?

SP
Buerhle
Ritchie
Porzio
Glover
Garland



I know you've said you don't like Parque but uhm Mike Porzio as our #3? Porzio wasn't even the third best starter to play on our AAA team last year. If Mike Porzio starts the season in our rotation I'd file that in the "Trouble Brewing" category. Like Butter or not, you shouldn't have much trouble coming up with a better option than Porzio. How about Rauch? Wright? Biddle? Ginter? Guerrier? Foulke? Malone? The Sox aren't even looking at Porzio as a starter, he's competing for the lefty job in the pen, he's a longass way away from being a major league starter.

RichH55
02-02-2002, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I take Rowand over Simmons for two reasons. First, at this time in his career, Rowand is a better hitter, and I want a more effective pinch hitter. I think a bench of Graffiano, Leifer, Rowand, Catcher and someone gives the Sox a better offensive mix. If Lofton can still play then we won't need a replacement CF late in games, so either Rowand or Leifer will be fine for defensive replacements.

Second, it gives Simmons a chance to regain some confidence in AAA. He has had some bad luck followed by a really awful stay in Toronto, but at one time he looked like a 5 tool player. Maybe some time in the minors will give him a chance to regain his batting eye and then he can be of more use to the team.

I am tired of deadwood on the bench, and Simmons would be just that...

Well Im guessing Liefer is going to be the primary pinch hitter, even if Rowand is on the big team.....Simmons I dont think can be sent to TripleA without clearing waivers and Rowand isnt going to get much better from the bench...and Simmons fits the mold of a 4th OF alot better than Rowand

voodoochile
02-02-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by RichH55


Well Im guessing Liefer is going to be the primary pinch hitter, even if Rowand is on the big team.....Simmons I dont think can be sent to TripleA without clearing waivers and Rowand isnt going to get much better from the bench...and Simmons fits the mold of a 4th OF alot better than Rowand

Yeah, but how often do you need a second pinch hitter in a baseball game? Often enough to want the guys on the bench to be able to perform when called upon. Secondly, what if you need a right handed PH? What if you need two?

Either way, Rowand doesn't lose that much as a defensive replacement and he brings the added bonus of better hitting. Simmons would strictly be a PR/DR unless he gets his swing back. He won't do that sitting on the Sox bench...

bc2k
02-02-2002, 10:23 PM
Kermit, first off, good memory on me hating Parque. Secondly, I wasn't bashing butter, I just had never heard of him-ever. Do you have any info on him? I don't think rauch will be starting in the mlb, I'm sure they will ease his rehab slowly. I don't like wright starting b/c he doesn't throw strikes. I do like biddle in the pen and do not like ginter at all. Guerrier or malone I'd consider along with porzio as the number three starter. I shouldn't say i hate parque, I just hate him as a starter and a journalist. I think he would be successful spot-starting and being another lefty in the pen. Starters who cannot go past 5 innings really irks me.

Randar68
02-03-2002, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by daver
Then we will agree to disagree Kermit,what else is new?,what I see tells me that he is a four to five inning tops pitcher,that has the potential to be a starter,but he will have to do some serious work to do so.He has the tools,but I question his stamina and drive.

But then again what the hell do I know?

This is what surprises me:

After 100 pitches, I see him hit his tops speeds on the radar gun. He can maintain his velocity deep into a gam, much like Rauch, which is something I really like out of a starter (anti-Parque). No, his control is a whole 'nother story!!!!!!!

voodoochile
02-03-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


This is what surprises me:

After 100 pitches, I see him hit his tops speeds on the radar gun. He can maintain his velocity deep into a gam, much like Rauch, which is something I really like out of a starter (anti-Parque). No, his control is a whole 'nother story!!!!!!!

I agree. Wright strikes me as one of the few pitchers on the Sox with the ability to get stronger later in games. I love his stuff. I think he is going to have a great career IF he can get his head together. He has always been fragile mentally (even had a nervous breakdown in college), but his arm and stuff are top notch, IMO.

Daver
02-03-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


I agree. Wright strikes me as one of the few pitchers on the Sox with the ability to get stronger later in games. I love his stuff. I think he is going to have a great career IF he can get his head together. He has always been fragile mentally (even had a nervous breakdown in college), but his arm and stuff are top notch, IMO.

Yes I will give you that,but he doesn't have what it takes to be a starting pitcher.He would be a good guy to have in the bullpen,maybe a long releiver,but not a starter.A starter has to have a killer instinct,and the nads to go after a hitter,he needs to be fearless on the mound.The Sox have two pitchers from last year that fit this mentality,Buerhle and Biddle.Garland may develop into that mode,he showed signs of it last year,but he still has a tendency to back away from the hitter.

But then again what the hell do I know? ©

RichH55
02-03-2002, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile


Yeah, but how often do you need a second pinch hitter in a baseball game? Often enough to want the guys on the bench to be able to perform when called upon. Secondly, what if you need a right handed PH? What if you need two?

Either way, Rowand doesn't lose that much as a defensive replacement and he brings the added bonus of better hitting. Simmons would strictly be a PR/DR unless he gets his swing back. He won't do that sitting on the Sox bench...



I cant quote you stats on pinch hitting, but Im assuming in the AL pinch hitting isnt the difference between winning and losing most of the time.....at least not multiple pinch hitting.......Generally we will have a guy like like Liefer or C Lee when Liefer is in left which is who you want to pinch hit over Rowand.........The value of Rowand as a 2nd Pinch Hitter over Simmons doesnt strike me a real compelling argument to use a young guy as 4th OF who has less baserunning skills and defensive skills than the other choice and when Rowand could be getting starts in Triple A every day(working on CF).

I also find it odd that you think Simmons cant get his swing back sitting on the bench(you could very well be right there), however if Simmons cant get his swing back sitting on the bench how do you figure Rowand is going to turn into a major league OF and improve his defensive skills sitting on the bench rather than getting playing time in Charlotte?

And I disagree with you on the defensive replacement thing.....Simmons is a better defensive guy plain and simple and the most use you are going to have for the 4th OF(with Liefer also on the roster) is defensive replacement for C Lee/Liefer and as baserunner for alot of our guys(we arent exactly a speedy team and the other guys with speed are generally already in the starting lineup)

Plus you are out of options on Simmons, so if he isnt the guy hes gone and Rowand could use playing time and cant get that playing time in Chicago...........if he ever can get that playing time(say in the event of an injury) you can always bring him back to start ball games and keep Simmons in that 4th OF spot

voodoochile
02-03-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by RichH55




I cant quote you stats on pinch hitting, but Im assuming in the AL pinch hitting isnt the difference between winning and losing most of the time.....at least not multiple pinch hitting.......Generally we will have a guy like like Liefer or C Lee when Liefer is in left which is who you want to pinch hit over Rowand.........The value of Rowand as a 2nd Pinch Hitter over Simmons doesnt strike me a real compelling argument to use a young guy as 4th OF who has less baserunning skills and defensive skills than the other choice and when Rowand could be getting starts in Triple A every day(working on CF).

I also find it odd that you think Simmons cant get his swing back sitting on the bench(you could very well be right there), however if Simmons cant get his swing back sitting on the bench how do you figure Rowand is going to turn into a major league OF and improve his defensive skills sitting on the bench rather than getting playing time in Charlotte?

And I disagree with you on the defensive replacement thing.....Simmons is a better defensive guy plain and simple and the most use you are going to have for the 4th OF(with Liefer also on the roster) is defensive replacement for C Lee/Liefer and as baserunner for alot of our guys(we arent exactly a speedy team and the other guys with speed are generally already in the starting lineup)

Plus you are out of options on Simmons, so if he isnt the guy hes gone and Rowand could use playing time and cant get that playing time in Chicago...........if he ever can get that playing time(say in the event of an injury) you can always bring him back to start ball games and keep Simmons in that 4th OF spot

I didn't know that Simmons was out of options. Still, my theory was based on the fact that Rowand is at best a 4th OF for the Sox next year or the year afterwards. I don't see him as a long-term starter. I also expect Lee to return to hitting the ball well enough this year to justitfy a lengthy stay in LF as a starter (or a trade for an all-star capable CF with a good OBP).

Also, as a corner OF, Rowand would be fine. He does okay in CF, but he will make a good defensive corner, IMO. Since Lofton won't need a defensive replacement (if he plays like he is capable of playing), the only defensive substitutions we will be making is for Lee. Rowand would be fine at that position.

However, if Simmons cannot be sent down, the discussion is moot...

bc2k
02-03-2002, 02:23 PM
Wow! Voodoochile and rich, that was the most intelligent debate/discussion I have ever heard on this website. You guys didn't just throw out your opinions and stats, you listened to each other and responded to the other persons points. And you both confused me on who should be the 4th outfielder.

czalgosz
02-03-2002, 02:37 PM
I personally would like Simmons - he's a better complement to the Sox bench than Rowand would be. Rowand is a better hitter, but not a lot better, and Simmons would give the Sox more options. Here's the Sox bench outside those two -

Mark Johnson
Tony Graffanino
Jeff Liefer

If the Sox carry 12 pitchers, which IMO they will, that leaves one spot. Simmons would be able to pinch-run and be a defensive replacement late in ballgames, and Rowand can't do either of those things. Graffanino can handle right-handed PH duties, probably as well as Rowand can.

If they carry 11 pitchers, probably for some unknown reason Josh Paul will get a spot, so you still need Simmons. And if Paul falls out of Manuel's favor and doesn't make the team, then you can carry two outfielders, and they both can make the team.

The only reason you would want to carry Rowand over Simmons, IMO, is if you set up a platoon in CF, and want to play Rowand over Lofton against lefties. Then I would agree that Rowand should make the team.