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Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:05 PM
From whitesox.com

The Chicago White Sox have agreed to terms with free agent outfielder Kenny Lofton on a one-year contract. More information to come.

kermittheefrog
02-01-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
From whitesox.com

The Chicago White Sox have agreed to terms with free agent outfielder Kenny Lofton on a one-year contract. More information to come.

*sigh*

I dunno, it's just a one year deal, it's not that bad. It can't be for much cash considering his season last year. I guess it really isn't a bad risk considering we only ahve him for one year and if he sucks we can just bring in Borchard. It also means Aaron Rowand won't be in our starting lineup next year which I like but I'd really rather have LTP in center.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I dunno, it's just a one year deal, it's not that bad. It can't be for much cash considering his season last year. I guess it really isn't a bad risk considering we only ahve him for one year and if he sucks we can just bring in Borchard. It also means Aaron Rowand won't be in our starting lineup next year which I like but I'd really rather have LTP in center.

Hopefully, he'll be a better lead off man then Ray.
I guess Simmons is gone, unless they leave Liefer off the roster and keep Brian and Rowand as backups.

cheeses_h_rice
02-01-2002, 05:12 PM
I hope Lofton's a lefty, at the very least.

I can't wait 'til he slides head-first into first base again!

dougs78
02-01-2002, 05:13 PM
*official* Sox sign Lofton

What? Like mine was not official? How dare you doubt my sources! :whiner:

:smile:

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I hope Lofton's a lefty, at the very least.

I can't wait 'til he slides head-first into first base again!

Yep, he's a lefty.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by dougs78
What? Like mine was not official? How dare you doubt my sources! :whiner:

:smile:

:boston
Doug's my guy.

FarWestChicago
02-01-2002, 05:15 PM
KW sure loves the 'Toon retreads.


:KW

I wonder if Rocky Colavito's got any pop left in his bat?

rmusacch
02-01-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
KW sure loves the 'Toon retreads.


:KW

I wonder if Rocky Colavito's got any pop left in his bat?

Who else has he signed that is a 'toon retread?

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:17 PM
Right when I have some faith in management and they pull this garbage. I hope they plan to use Lofton as a backup, if not, this move has no value at all.

Soxboyrob
02-01-2002, 05:18 PM
I wouldn't rule out seeing Durham remain the leadoff hitter, w/ Lofton being moved to number 7 or 8. I'm thinking that Manuel will evaluate the two of them and try to make a call based on their spring training performances. If the old Lofton makes a revisit, I'm all for seeing him lead off. I wonder if we'll see he and Ray hitting one and two, w/ Jose being moved down in the order?

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
I hope Lofton's a lefty, at the very least.

I can't wait 'til he slides head-first into first base again!

Yes, Lofton's a lefty.

This is amazing. Look at Lofton vs. Singleton last season.

Lofton - OBP .322, SLG .398
Singleton - OBP .331, SLG .431

The only thing that I can say is that Lofton's 2001 numbers were a big dropoff from 2000 and prior - maybe he'll bounce back. I was hoping that getting rid of Singleton meant that they were going in a completely different direction - apparently not.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
Right when I have some faith in management and they pull this garbage. I hope they plan to use Lofton as a backup, if not, this move has no value at all.

He'll be the starter, Rowand will get his chance sooner or later.

dougs78
02-01-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted By Peter Gammons (via Jerrry Manuel)
Doug's my guy.

Thanks Pete! I knew I could count on you. :)

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I wouldn't rule out seeing Durham remain the leadoff hitter, w/ Lofton being moved to number 7 or 8. I'm thinking that Manuel will evaluate the two of them and try to make a call based on their spring training performances. If the old Lofton makes a revisit, I'm all for seeing him lead off. I wonder if we'll see he and Ray hitting one and two, w/ Jose being moved down in the order?

That's interesting Rob. I wonder if they would ever do what the Indians did, and have 3 speed guys at the top of the order. I know Frank loves hitting third, but Lofton, Valentin, and Durham wouldn't be a bad 1-2-3.

I'm sure Durham would love hitting in front of Frank.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
Who else has he signed that is a 'toon retread?

:sandy

FarWestChicago
02-01-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch


Who else has he signed that is a 'toon retread? Alomar. Or was that still, Scu?

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


He'll be the starter, Rowand will get his chance sooner or later.

Yeah, just like Crede...

This team is afraid to let a young guy play if he isn't a pitcher. They spend all their time trying to not hurt their young guys by playing them too early, but they never give them a chance! It happened last year with Canseco and Perry and Baines taking the spots...now it's Lofton? How many washed up players do we have to sit through? This move is a joke.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Alomar. Or was that still, Scu?

No, that was a Williams move.

dougs78
02-01-2002, 05:26 PM
I'd vote for

Lofton, Valentin, Thomas..... and then having Ray's switch-hitting bat down farther in the order to balance out a little. Thats assuming Lofton has anything left in the tank...but at 35, I really don't see why he'd be washed up yet. Who knows...

Soxboyrob
02-01-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz

This is amazing. Look at Lofton vs. Singleton last season.

Lofton - OBP .322, SLG .398
Singleton - OBP .331, SLG .431

The only thing that I can say is that Lofton's 2001 numbers were a big dropoff from 2000 and prior - maybe he'll bounce back

The fact that Lofton's SLG PCT is lower than even Singleton's will be immaterial if Kenny can once again resemble his old self. He was a very fine leadoff guy for a decade before one bad year, which followed a very ugly injury in the prior year's playoffs. He won't be expected to slug for a high percentage if he can get his OBP back to .370 or .380. He scores a lot of runs, can still steal a base(something that gave Chris trouble last year), and will take a number of walks. He also is a fine bunter. I like this deal and it comes w/ no risk at all.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


Yeah, just like Crede...

This team is afraid to let a young guy play if he isn't a pitcher. They spend all their time trying to not hurt their young guys by playing them too early, but they never give them a chance! It happened last year with Canseco and Perry and Baines taking the spots...now it's Lofton? How many washed up players do we have to sit through? This move is a joke.

I should slightly rephrase. They did play Ramirez. Management being too damn stubborn is where the problem lies.

FarWestChicago
02-01-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


No, that was a Williams move. :KW

I wonder if Joe Charboneau is available?

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
Yeah, just like Crede...

This team is afraid to let a young guy play if he isn't a pitcher. They spend all their time trying to not hurt their young guys by playing them too early, but they never give them a chance! It happened last year with Canseco and Perry and Baines taking the spots...now it's Lofton? How many washed up players do we have to sit through? This move is a joke.

Borchard, is going to be the exception. I really think the success of the 2000 team, hurt Crede. If that team finishes 2nd, Crede is the man at 3rd. The success made them bring Perry back, and deal for Clayton, because you need defense in the playoffs. Rowand unlike Crede will at least be on the roster, opening day.

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I wouldn't rule out seeing Durham remain the leadoff hitter, w/ Lofton being moved to number 7 or 8.

If he's not leading off i'd like him in 9 hole--i
like having a speedy contact hitter at no. 9 ala
ozzie guillen or omar vizquel before they put him at the top of the order/I'm a little dissappointed, though, i'd like to see rowand out there

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Borchard, is going to be the exception. I really think the success of the 2000 team, hurt Crede. If that team finishes 2nd, Crede is the man at 3rd. The success made them bring Perry back, and deal for Clayton, because you need defense in the playoffs. Rowand unlike Crede will at least be on the roster, opening day.

And what will Rowand be doing? Rotting on the bench, just like last season? Thats why Rowand and Crede are going to pan out to be busts in my mind. I think they are totally handling this situation wrong. I said this last year that this team can NEVER figure out if they want to rebuild or go for it all. Things look no different this year. If they want to go for it all, pull some MAJOR strings. I really dislike this whole pick up...

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
And what will Rowand be doing? Rotting on the bench, just like last season? Thats why Rowand and Crede are going to pan out to be busts in my mind. I think they are totally handling this situation wrong. I said this last year that this team can NEVER figure out if they want to rebuild or go for it all. Things look no different this year. If they want to go for it all, pull some MAJOR strings. I really dislike this whole pick up...

Williams might have one more move, up his sleeve. As I said before, the reason Crede wasn't used at the end of 2001, was because they knew they couldn't move Clayton. Which means Royce plays short, with Jose at 3rd. There not even counting on Rowand, to be anything. As long as they keep Lee, there's no spot for Rowand.

kermittheefrog
02-01-2002, 05:39 PM
Here is Lofton's 2002 projection courtesy Stats, Inc. :

.285 BA .370 OBP .421 SLG 501 AB 96 R 143 H 96 R 12 HR 59 RBI 67 BB 78 K 24 SB 8 CS

If he can actually post that .370 OBP he'll be a valuable member of the lineup but I get the feeling this projection is a little high.

FarWestChicago
02-01-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Here is Lofton's 2002 projection courtesy Stats, Inc. :

.285 BA .370 OBP .421 SLG 501 AB 96 R 143 H 96 R 12 HR 59 RBI 67 BB 78 K 24 SB 8 CS :cleo

Doze numbers look about right to me, mon.

Fisk Fan
02-01-2002, 05:41 PM
I think Kemper hit the nail on the head. You have to decide which direction you want to go. If you want to give the young guys a chance at the cost of losing some because of those young guys, then do it. The bottom line is that we still have no idea what these young guys like Rowand, Borchard and Crede will do. Albert Pujols is a prime example. He got a shot and ended up an All-Star.

Too much weight is placed on the notion that a player is not ready for the big leagues. You must give these kids a chance to prove what they can do. Otherwise, they will end up being busts!

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


I should slightly rephrase. They did play Ramirez. Management being too damn stubborn is where the problem lies.

Ramirez making the team was entirely based on a very strong Spring Training performance. Let that be reason enough not to base any decisions on how you do in Spring Training.

I keep going back and forth in my mind over whether this is a good pickup.

Pros -

1) Lofton played hurt most of last season. If he's healthy, he'll play better.

2) It doesn't really cost the Sox much (I'm assuming they won't be paying him much) and if he falls on his face, they'll have Borchard and Harris in the minors.

The main reason that Cleveland let him go is that he had an option year that would have cost them a lot of money, and they declined to exercise that. Then they didn't offer him arbitration, so they couldn't talk to him until May 1 anyway. My bet is that they would rather have Lofton back than have Brady Anderson patrolling center, but Anderson would be a lot cheaper for them than bringing Lofton back under the current system. (Reason #1 why arbitration has to go - it artificially inflates a player's value, thereby making it cheaper to get a player on the free market than it is to keep your own players. How screwy is that?)

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Williams might have one more move, up his sleeve. As I said before, the reason Crede wasn't used at the end of 2001, was because they knew they couldn't move Clayton. Which means Royce plays short, with Jose at 3rd. There not even counting on Rowand, to be anything. As long as they keep Lee, there's no spot for Rowand.

Well, Rowand never got a chance, neither did Crede. You go out and sign vets when your young guys can't cut it. With Singleton out, Rowand HAD room. He deserved a shot, sure as hell a better one than Ramirez had. This is another low risk, don't spend the big bucks, and HOPE for the best move. Never do we see a move that will almost promise results, always something that could go either way. Save some cash by taking low risks. This is small market baseball, and I guess I shouldn't have expected anything else while Jerry and company are running the show.

kermittheefrog
02-01-2002, 05:43 PM
Basically how I feel is (and I'll probably expand upon this in a column):

I like that Lofton is low risk and he could provide us with some OBP help but I am fed up with Kenny's style of brining in vets instead of giving the kids a chance.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
I think Kemper hit the nail on the head. You have to decide which direction you want to go. If you want to give the young guys a chance at the cost of losing some because of those young guys, then do it. The bottom line is that we still have no idea what these young guys like Rowand, Borchard and Crede will do. Albert Pujols is a prime example. He got a shot and ended up an All-Star.

Too much weight is placed on the notion that a player is not ready for the big leagues. You must give these kids a chance to prove what they can do. Otherwise, they will end up being busts!

Exactly! If they turn out to be stars, you are set for years. If they turn out to be a bust, move on, you know where you need help and you go get it.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Here is Lofton's 2002 projection courtesy Stats, Inc. :

.285 BA .370 OBP .421 SLG 501 AB 96 R 143 H 96 R 12 HR 59 RBI 67 BB 78 K 24 SB 8 CS

If he can actually post that .370 OBP he'll be a valuable member of the lineup but I get the feeling this projection is a little high.

If he can post a .370 OBP, that would be great. Somehow I doubt that will happen.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Ramirez making the team was entirely based on a very strong Spring Training performance. Let that be reason enough not to base any decisions on how you do in Spring Training.

I keep going back and forth in my mind over whether this is a good pickup.



Ramirez made the team because of a strong spring training, but management was so stubborn that they kept him around so long. They made the move and then they weren't willing to admit they made the mistake.


2) It doesn't really cost the Sox much (I'm assuming they won't be paying him much) and if he falls on his face, they'll have Borchard and Harris in the minors.
[/B]

This is my point, a low risk move again. These are the type of pickups the Expos should be making.

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 05:47 PM
Anybody think this may have more of an effect on CLee than Rowand?

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Basically how I feel is (and I'll probably expand upon this in a column):

I like that Lofton is low risk and he could provide us with some OBP help but I am fed up with Kenny's style of brining in vets instead of giving the kids a chance.

Well, in this instance I'll assume you're talking about Borchard in terms of giving the kids a chance, because I know you don't like Rowand. And I disagree that Borchard should be on the Opening day roster.

One nice thing about this - this means the Erstad trade talk is officially dead.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
Exactly! If they turn out to be stars, you are set for years. If they turn out to be a bust, move on, you know where you need help and you go get it.

I've told you about 100 times why Crede, isn't playing. I know you hate the fact that he's not playing, but that's the way it is. If Rowand were to play this year and he had a hell of a year, then you've got a problem. You have to decide if Rowand can be better then Lee, then you have to decide who to move.

Fisk Fan
02-01-2002, 05:51 PM
The problem is that with CLee, you must keep his bat in the line-up. You can't really hide his glove anywhere else, and with Frank at DH, where else can you put CLee? The only other place might be first base, but then what about Konerko?

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Anybody think this may have more of an effect on CLee than Rowand?

What, you mean that the Sox would trade Lee and put Rowand there? That would be a big mistake, IMO. Rowand produced way better than you can expect out of him, Lee had a disappointing season last year, and Lee still had a better season.

I don't mind seeing Rowand as the fourth outfielder, but as a starter, he makes me cringe.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
Albert Pujols is a prime example. He got a shot and ended up an All-Star.

Too much weight is placed on the notion that a player is not ready for the big leagues. You must give these kids a chance to prove what they can do. Otherwise, they will end up being busts!

Pujols made the Cardinals out of Spring Training as a stopgap because I believe Placido Polanco was hurt. They wanted to keep him in the minors, but they decided to play him for a couple weeks while Polanco recovered. He played well enough to stay in the lineup.

Something like that would have to happen for Joe Crede to get a lot of playing time. I'm against handing starting jobs to rookies out of Spring Training.. If Clayton has a crappy start like he did last year, then I would be completely for giving Crede the job at third.

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


What, you mean that the Sox would trade Lee and put Rowand there? That would be a big mistake, IMO. Rowand produced way better than you can expect out of him, Lee had a disappointing season last year, and Lee still had a better season.

I don't mind seeing Rowand as the fourth outfielder, but as a starter, he makes me cringe.

You know from clayton's signing last year KW wanted to improve the D and 2001 was no improvement.. If you look at the one player who exemplified the sox bad defense last year it was carlos--I agree it wouldn't be a good idea though,
i'd rather have rowand and lee in the outfield and
lofton on the bench for defense and speed

Jjav829
02-01-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
Anybody think this may have more of an effect on CLee than Rowand?

Im guessing what you mean is that it has an effect on CLee because of Lofton's defensive skills he should be able to make some plays to cut down the amount of field CLee has to cover. If thats what your saying I agree.

kermittheefrog
02-01-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


You know from clayton's signing last year KW wanted to improve the D and 2001 was no improvement.. If you look at the one player who exemplified the sox bad defense last year it was carlos

How much does a great defensive leftfielder help you anyway? Looking at the history of baseball leftfield is not a defensive position.

kermittheefrog
02-01-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829


Im guessing what you mean is that it has an effect on CLee because of Lofton's defensive skills he should be able to make some plays to cut down the amount of field CLee has to cover. If thats what your saying I agree.

How can anyone expect Lofton to be a defensive upgrade over Singleton? Singleton is 6 years younger and has excellent range. Lofton is going to be 35, surely he's lost a good deal of the range he once had and he's also lost some arm strength to surgery.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I've told you about 100 times why Crede, isn't playing. I know you hate the fact that he's not playing, but that's the way it is. If Rowand were to play this year and he had a hell of a year, then you've got a problem. You have to decide if Rowand can be better then Lee, then you have to decide who to move.

When did I say I didn't understand the team's reasoning? I know exactly why he isn't playing and I totally disagree with it! I don't need it explained, I am just putting in my opinion of what I hate that this team does when it comes to dealing with younger players. If Rowand is a bust, you move on, if he is a stud, you have too much talent...how is that a bad thing?

Jjav829
02-01-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


How can anyone expect Lofton to be a defensive upgrade over Singleton? Singleton is 6 years younger and has excellent range. Lofton is going to be 35, surely he's lost a good deal of the range he once had and he's also lost some arm strength to surgery.

I was talking about the move possibly being made as an upgrade defensively over Rowand, not Singleton.

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


How much does a great defensive leftfielder help you anyway? Looking at the history of baseball leftfield is not a defensive position.

Having good OUTFIElD defense will save your team many runs over the course of a season--every position is a defensive position if they hit the ball there

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
If Rowand is a bust, you move on, if he is a stud, you have too much talent...how is that a bad thing?

The problem is that one year of Rowand in center, isn't going to tell you if he's bust or not.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


When did I say I didn't understand the team's reasoning? I know exactly why he isn't playing and I totally disagree with it! I don't need it explained, I am just putting in my opinion of what I hate that this team does when it comes to dealing with younger players. If Rowand is a bust, you move on, if he is a stud, you have too much talent...how is that a bad thing?

The only problem with throwing a rookie out there out of Spring Training is that if he is a bust, you end up like last season, where you spend a bunch of time juggling lineups, trying to figure out who can play. I just believe you go in with as few question marks as possible.

Look, you go with what you know. I don't think that playing Crede is going to give you more than one or two more wins over playing Clayton, even if Crede plays wel. Look, we have one of two scenarios - 1) The Sox play well, and get a commanding lead in the division. Then, as George would say, you don't mess with success. Unless Clayton is batting .100 again, you keep him in the lineup. 2) The Sox suck and fall on their faces like they did last season. Then you bench Clayton, bring up Crede, and let him play every day.

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


Having good OUTFIElD defense will save your team many runs over the course of a season--every position is a defensive position if they hit the ball there

A good defensive centerfielder helps a lot more than a good defensive leftfielder. Lee adds more runs with his bat than he takes away with his glove, even at his worst.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


The problem is that one year of Rowand in center, isn't going to tell you if he's bust or not.

So what is your plan to figure it out. Sign vets till he is in his upper 20s and let him rot away till then? Like I said, they should have decided to rebuild or go for it all. When you rebuild, you take your lumps and play these guys for as long as it takes to figure them out. If you wanna go for it all, deal Rowand and Crede before they lose all their value, don't waste them.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
So what is your plan to figure it out. Sign vets till he is in his upper 20s and let him rot away till then? Like I said, they should have decided to rebuild or go for it all. When you rebuild, you take your lumps and play these guys for as long as it takes to figure them out. If you wanna go for it all, deal Rowand and Crede before they lose all their value, don't waste them.

Rowand would still be rotting away in AAA, had Thomas not gotten hurt last year.

Lee is going to get moved at the deadline, or in 2003, just my opinion. Then Rowand will get his shot, and hopefully he'll do well.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Rowand would still be rotting away in AAA, had Thomas not gotten hurt last year.


No, you can at least develop somewhat in AAA for a year or two, sitting on the bench in the bigs is a complete waste.

Jerry_Manuel
02-01-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
No, you can at least develop somewhat in AAA for a year or two, sitting on the bench in the bigs is a complete waste.

I wouldn't have a problem if they left him in Charlotte, in 2002.

Spiff
02-01-2002, 06:30 PM
I just want baseball to start already dammit so we can stop speculating and actually see something happen. Even spring training will be a welcome change.

CerberusWG
02-01-2002, 06:39 PM
Odd.

While I do like the signing of Lofton, I'm just peeved that Rowand is going to get screwed.

Hey, since Rowand is at SoxFest, someone ask him! WSI Investigative reporters to the rescue!

Oh man, tomorrow:

2:00-2:45 Outfield play with Aaron Rowand

Now, the whole point of spitting seeds is to....

:(

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


A good defensive centerfielder helps a lot more than a good defensive leftfielder. Lee adds more runs with his bat than he takes away with his glove, even at his worst.

I would imagine CLee's offense would be toward the low end for LFer's

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


I would imagine CLee's offense would be toward the low end for LFer's

Actually, his SLG last season was decent - right around say Shannon Stewart and Garrett Anderson. His OBP was pretty bad, though. All in all, he was about average - think Dante Bichette.

duke of dorwood
02-01-2002, 10:46 PM
I just got back from SoxFest. There is simply no buzz about this there at all.

nut_stock
02-01-2002, 10:54 PM
I guess a lot of the people there haven't had enough time to think whether or not they approve of the deal.

longshot7
02-01-2002, 10:55 PM
yeah, I just found out on ESPN. At this point, you just gotta sit back and laugh. I guess Kenny didn't see the Hot Stove Heater about all his old guys.

duke of dorwood
02-01-2002, 11:00 PM
One thing for sure, he plays OUR centerfield well, has taken home runs FROM us. Did it last year in fact.

kermittheefrog
02-02-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
One thing for sure, he plays OUR centerfield well, has taken home runs FROM us. Did it last year in fact.

Man I remember a day back in 96 I think, in consecutive at bats Robin Ventura had balls that shoudl ahve been out the yard and Lofton turned them into outs. I wanted to break the guys legs. Too bad he's not that kind of defender anymore.

voodoochile
02-02-2002, 01:39 AM
I am still deciding about this deal, but if Lofton can get his OBP in the .350+ range, it will be beneficial. I am not sold on Rowand and he is probably at most a 4th OF next year when Borchard gets called up, so I don't think that is a major point.

What do the Sox need more than anything else? Guys who set the table. Lofton has always done that except when injured. It is an inexpensive move that really costs them very little. If Lofton tears it up from the start of the season, then he will be a huge pickup. If not, he only cost 1.25 million which means (unlike Royce) it won't be hard to bench him and give Rowand a chance.

It is a no lose situation, IMO.

bc2k
02-02-2002, 01:41 AM
I have mixed feelings on this trade. I like the fact that we now have a real lead-off hitter. I do not like rowand losing his cf spot. The only reasoning i can think of is kw planning a trade of carlos lee thus moving rowand to left and eventually borchard to center. If carlos stays, rowand will go to the minors, playing everyday. I hope the lineup will be Lofton leading off, valentin number 2 and durham number 9.

voodoochile
02-02-2002, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I have mixed feelings on this trade. I like the fact that we now have a real lead-off hitter. I do not like rowand losing his cf spot. The only reasoning i can think of is kw planning a trade of carlos lee thus moving rowand to left and eventually borchard to center. If carlos stays, rowand will go to the minors, playing everyday. I hope the lineup will be Lofton leading off, valentin number 2 and durham number 9.

No no no... Ray has a much better OBP than Valentin for his career. Even last year when he had an off year it was better than Jose's. Ray bats second. Valentin bats 7th. Or, if Lofton starts off slow, Ray goes back to lead off with Valentin batting second and Lofton/Rowand goes to ninth until they PROVE they can consistently reach base.

RedPinStripes
02-02-2002, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
I have mixed feelings on this trade.

He was a free agent dude.


I think this move was just another way to assure that the sox don't rush Borchard and Rowand. I don't know what it means for Lee, but they have to do something about that. I'd like to see Lee go for a Starting Pitcher. I think Rowand should be playing LF now, not next year. Why the hell would he be in CF anyway if the golden child is going to be in cf? Lofton is a good veteran leadoff hitter who killed us for years. If he gets on with less then 2 out, 9 out of 10 times he's scoring and we have all watched that through the years. He still robs hr's too. I remember him leaping over the wall in cf to snag one away from Singleton i think last year. The guy still has some gas left and did not hurt us at all. He'll be long gone next year.

RichH55
02-02-2002, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Here is Lofton's 2002 projection courtesy Stats, Inc. :

.285 BA .370 OBP .421 SLG 501 AB 96 R 143 H 96 R 12 HR 59 RBI 67 BB 78 K 24 SB 8 CS

If he can actually post that .370 OBP he'll be a valuable member of the lineup but I get the feeling this projection is a little high.


I would be estatic with these numbers

RichH55
02-02-2002, 04:17 AM
Im not one to be in the camp that wonders how this relates to Rowand.......its all LTP.....this gives him one more year to develop, or at least some time.....When LTP is ready, it doesnt matter if its Singleton, Rowand, or Kenny out there, the job is his.....I dont think LTP is ready right now(I cant prove it either way), though I think he'll be ready soon....either Kenny or Rowand would be a stopgap and I think you can count on better contributions from Kenny for a year when we have a legitimate playoff shot......I dont like Rowand more than LTP in CF in 2003 and I dont like Rowand in LF over Lee in 2003(unless Lee completely falls on his face), so that leaves him as the future 4th OF provided Liefer doesnt play his ass off or you envision a guy like Simmons as a better 4th OF type......Rowand most likely got screwed here, but I dont think that necessary was in the Sox worst interests to do.......Rowand is a guy I like, but probably not going to be a star, especially in todays slugging hunger baseball reincarnate......Rowand over Singleton was no contest...Rowand, but Lofton is a different animal than Singleton and LTP is a Beast period.

RichH55
02-02-2002, 04:19 AM
Its hard to put a figure on it, but how much does a motivated Kenny Lofton mean to his numbers? I know Wells got into workable shape to prove a point, and the early word is that Kenny is been living in the gym(fitness wise)..to mean that means he is coming to play......34 or 35 today isnt the end and Lofton at a good fraction of his former self is better than Rowand or Singleton and probably even Simmons too:) Just MHO

guillen4life13
02-02-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
One thing for sure, he plays OUR centerfield well, has taken home runs FROM us. Did it last year in fact.


I think Jim Thome crashed 2 that night also.
Yep. I was there. that was a great grab. Of course, it ticked me off, but at least now he's patrolling our CF. Singleton never even made many attempts to snag homers. At least Lofton still does. As for batting: the guy is probably the best leadoff hitter of the nineties, behind henderson. He's not old enough to be washed up yet, i don't think, and he can really do some .290 hitting, w/ at least 25 SB's. we shall see.

Now i've gotta change my sig, don't I?

longshot7
02-02-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Im not one to be in the camp that wonders how this relates to Rowand.......its all LTP.....this gives him one more year to develop, or at least some time.....Rowand, but Lofton is a different animal than Singleton and LTP is a Beast period.

I missed something..... who is LTP?

FarWestChicago
02-02-2002, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by longshot7


I missed something..... who is LTP?
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=L

Soxheads
02-02-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=L

By my count, that's roughly 72 times that question had to be answered. :smile:

FarWestChicago
02-02-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Soxheads


By my count, that's roughly 72 times that question had to be answered. :smile: Well, the dictionary is linked from the home page, the left nav menu here, the new message template and the reply template. I think I need to add another one. :smile:

Soxheads
02-02-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Well, the dictionary is linked from the home page, the left nav menu here, the new message template and the reply template. I think I need to add another one. :smile:

How about words flying across the screen? :D:

AsInWreck
02-02-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


No no no... Ray has a much better OBP than Valentin for his career. Even last year when he had an off year it was better than Jose's. Ray bats second. Valentin bats 7th. Or, if Lofton starts off slow, Ray goes back to lead off with Valentin batting second and Lofton/Rowand goes to ninth until they PROVE they can consistently reach base.

i agree with you for the most part here, but i'd like valentin at 6 and lee at 7, this would give
lee(and the other bottom o' lineup guys) someone speedy to knock in

mcreek
02-02-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz



The main reason that Cleveland let him go is that he had an option year that would have cost them a lot of money, and they declined to exercise that. Then they didn't offer him arbitration, so they couldn't talk to him until May 1 anyway. My bet is that they would rather have Lofton back than have Brady Anderson patrolling center, but Anderson would be a lot cheaper for them than bringing Lofton back under the current system. (Reason #1 why arbitration has to go - it artificially inflates a player's value, thereby making it cheaper to get a player on the free market than it is to keep your own players. How screwy is that?) The main reason Lofton is gone is Cleveland is going with Milton Bradley in center who is a tremendous upgrade over Lofton defensively. Kennys arm is about shot, he can no longer steal bases and rarely ever bunts anymore, he also has developed a bad habit of swinging for the fences wich causes him to pop up numerous times.

czalgosz
02-02-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by mcreek
The main reason Lofton is gone is Cleveland is going with Milton Bradley in center who is a tremendous upgrade over Lofton defensively. Kennys arm is about shot, he can no longer steal bases and rarely ever bunts anymore, he also has developed a bad habit of swinging for the fences wich causes him to pop up numerous times.

That all may be true, but if money wasn't an issue, you can bet they'd bring back Lofton.

mcreek
02-02-2002, 04:34 PM
At that price it would have been a bargain but once Bradley was aquired last June the handwriting was on the wall for Lofton, he knew once Mark Shapiro took over as GM his days were numbered since Shapiro was going on a youth movement. If John Hart had remained as GM Kenny would have stayed i am sure.

mrwag
02-02-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I am still deciding about this deal, but if Lofton can get his OBP in the .350+ range, it will be beneficial. I am not sold on Rowand and he is probably at most a 4th OF next year when Borchard gets called up, so I don't think that is a major point.

What do the Sox need more than anything else? Guys who set the table. Lofton has always done that except when injured. It is an inexpensive move that really costs them very little. If Lofton tears it up from the start of the season, then he will be a huge pickup. If not, he only cost 1.25 million which means (unlike Royce) it won't be hard to bench him and give Rowand a chance.

It is a no lose situation, IMO.

Amen bro. This IS a good deal. It's backup in case Rowand struggles this year. Who says Lofton's the starting CF this year? He could be the 4th OF. But, if he does play near his old abilities, he will be what our team needs. How many times has Lofton tore us up in the past? In my opinion he was Cleveland's spark plug. Good deal, Kenny Williams.

czalgosz
02-02-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by mcreek
At that price it would have been a bargain but once Bradley was aquired last June the handwriting was on the wall for Lofton, he knew once Mark Shapiro took over as GM his days were numbered since Shapiro was going on a youth movement. If John Hart had remained as GM Kenny would have stayed i am sure.

The Indians would have had to pay more than $1.25M for Lofton - to keep him, they would have had to offer him arbitration. He would have been silly to turn it down, as his payday would have been 2-3 times as much as he could get on the open market.

That's what I meant when I said it was cheaper for the Indians to get a FA than it was to keep Lofton.

mcreek
02-02-2002, 04:41 PM
I got ya now!

dugwood31
02-02-2002, 08:56 PM
I think I like this move. Lofton is much more of a prototypical leadoff man than anyone we have, even though he doesn't steal a huge number of bases anymore. He was injured last year, so the upside of this deal is much greater than the downside. I noticed that a few times in his career Lofton actually walked more than he K'd, and he almost never gets thrown out trying to steal. Singleton, who I liked, never had the knack for swiping bases. Lofton's also a .302 lifetime hitter, which surprised me a little bit. If Lofton's healthy, he could improve the SB numbers to somewhere in the 30 range, I'd guess.

RichH55
02-03-2002, 04:31 AM
2001 Outlook
Lofton is back after the Indians picked up his $8 million option in mid-November. They had talked about negotiating a multiyear pact, but they liked the hunger he showed in the final two months of last season on what amounted to a one-year deal



When not injury prone he is a player....and motivation when there is no guartnee on tomorrow affects many differently.....though because of it I'm expecting more than respectable years out of Kenny Lofton and Ray Durham .360 OBP out of each of them>? Bestill my foolish heart