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Chisox_cali
02-01-2002, 04:07 PM
According to TSN...

Shortstop Royce Clayton is officially off the trade block. Acquired in a deal from the Rangers last winter, Clayton had the option to request another trade because he was in the middle of a multiyear contract. But he expressed a strong desire to return to the team, and GM Kenny Williams has granted his wish.

Clayton rebounded from a miserable start at the plate in 2000, and the team desperately needs his strong defensive skills. Clayton's return means Jose Valentin moves back to third base on a full-time basis. That's bad news for promising prospect Joe Crede, who has to wait another year before getting his shot. The team could keep Crede in a reserve role, but he's probably headed back to Class Charlotte. . . .

HERE'S THE WHOLE ARTICLE (http://www.sportingnews.com/baseball/teams/whitesox/)
Nice thing about JM in the end of it

FarWestChicago
02-01-2002, 04:23 PM
:buddylee

Everybody wants to be like Buddy Lee.

KempersRS
02-01-2002, 04:26 PM
:ohno

FarWestChicago
02-01-2002, 04:34 PM
:crede

Anybody looking for a barely used prospect? Anybody?

AsInWreck
02-01-2002, 05:20 PM
I'm all for getting rid of clayton, no question but it may not be a bad idea to keep him on the roster til midseason to make sure the sox will be alright w/ crede and valentin and then use him as midseason trade bait - I can only hope that's the oganization's idea at this point

czalgosz
02-01-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I'm all for getting rid of clayton, no question but it may not be a bad idea to keep him on the roster til midseason to make sure the sox will be alright w/ crede and valentin and then use him as midseason trade bait - I can only hope that's the oganization's idea at this point

The only thing is this - If the Sox get rid of Clayton, and something happens to Valentin, the Sox have noone in their organization who can play short on an everyday basis.

Soxboyrob
02-01-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


The only thing is this - If the Sox get rid of Clayton, and something happens to Valentin, the Sox have noone in their organization who can play short on an everyday basis.

BINGO!!!!!
Not to mention that Manos has been fairly fragile and breakable these last couple of seasons. I wouldn't feel good at all about having Val as our only SS. Keep Clayton and find a way to play Clayton, Valentin AND Crede.

bc2k
02-02-2002, 03:43 AM
I would take my chances will valentin at ss with clayton gone and crede at third. If valentin goes down, i think super utility man graffanino can hold the line for jose.

RichH55
02-02-2002, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


BINGO!!!!!
Not to mention that Manos has been fairly fragile and breakable these last couple of seasons. I wouldn't feel good at all about having Val as our only SS. Keep Clayton and find a way to play Clayton, Valentin AND Crede.



Well this doesnt seem plausible in the least...DH Crede perhaps:) or even better Royce? Graff can play at least an effective SS....and if Clayton is your last resort, do you think you are doing anything anyway?

Kilroy
02-02-2002, 04:05 AM
Just asking to get y'all's thoughts on this, but what exactly has Joe Crede done at the ML level to convince everyone that he's ready to play there? I don't remember him "convincing" me that he could the way Rowand did when he got in.

RichH55
02-02-2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Just asking to get y'all's thoughts on this, but what exactly has Joe Crede done at the ML level to convince everyone that he's ready to play there? I don't remember him "convincing" me that he could the way Rowand did when he got in.


Well his stats in the minors as well as his MVPs in Double A do speak volumes(batting stats are easier to interpret at the minor league level) though we arent expected Mike Schmidt here, however he should have a helluva glove, and playing Crede means you are playing Jose at SS, and not a certain pseudo-action figure...addition by subtraction......I keep hearing numbers like .275 20 HRs and a great glove.......Works for me

mrwag
02-02-2002, 05:43 PM
Does Crede bat left or right? If right, why not platoon him and Jose. I mean, Jose is definately a much better left handed hitter. Why not just let the opposing starting pitcher decide? This would give Crede his shot. Hopefully we'll have enough roster spots.

guillen4life13
02-02-2002, 06:20 PM
I have a solution.

play crede 2/3 days @ 3B. Play Clayton 2/3 days @ short

Play Jose 1/3 @ 3B, 1/3 @ short= everyone plays 2/3 days. Each person therefore plays at least 100 games if healthy

doublem23
02-02-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I have a solution.

play crede 2/3 days @ 3B. Play Clayton 2/3 days @ short

Play Jose 1/3 @ 3B, 1/3 @ short= everyone plays 2/3 days. Each person therefore plays at least 100 games if healthy

:jerry
Why don't I just pick names out a hat again? So much less math involved...

CubKilla
02-02-2002, 07:43 PM
I think it's less the Sox taking Clayton off the trading block and more the other major league baseball teams refusing to part with a roll of bat tape in a trade.

duke of dorwood
02-02-2002, 07:55 PM
I met Mrs Crede at the fest-about as nice a person as you can be. Hope that Joe and her can be patient, they are quality people that deserve a chance. And I hope it is soon. As someone stated yesterday, I wish I knew what the plan is, if there is one. If this is a win now thing, act like it. If we believe in our prospects getting us to the next level, let them play.

alohafri
02-02-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy
Just asking to get y'all's thoughts on this, but what exactly has Joe Crede done at the ML level to convince everyone that he's ready to play there? I don't remember him "convincing" me that he could the way Rowand did when he got in.

Crede hasn't yet gotten the chance to show what he can do at the major league level. In September, when we should have been trying some of our young guys out, the great Lenny "Can I tend the rabbits, George?" Williams, insisted on making us believe that we had a shot at the Central Division title and kept playing the regulars. I think Crede is ready!

:beer

cornball
02-02-2002, 10:45 PM
For the life of me....i just dont get the infatuation with Jose.... I mean a career .247 hitter with power, he gets hurt alot, made 13 errors in 66 games at 3rd last year, while making 9 at short last year, he strikes out alot.....i dont get it. And the years with the Sox have been career years. Last year .245 with 114 K's but with 28 homers.

For a shortstop great offensive numbers, but not for 3rd.

Am I missing something, whats so great about Jose?

bc2k
02-02-2002, 11:36 PM
Jose Valentin is the sox MVP two years running now. Jose plays with heart. He is clutch. He was hurt last year b/c he was playing out of position. By no means is he injury-prone. He knows how to bunt. When Lofton draws a lead-off walk, we need Jose batting second to advance lofton. Durham will foul off two cosecutive pitches and be forced to swing away. Back to Jose, we keep hearing about his range because its good. He has a strong arm to throw out men no matter if he is deep in the hole. Jose is a true switch hitter. Jose is a man who wants to win and has a passion for baseball. He signed with the white sox for less than other teams offered him because he wants to win. He successfully completes more double-plays than clayton b/c he has the arm to get it to konerko, while clayton rainbows it over there. You talk about Jose's errors making pitchers throw more balls over the course of a game. But what about clayton not having the range or arm to complete a double play. How many more pitches does that put on the pitchers' arms. A great man to have in the clubhouse as well. God bless Jose Valentin, White Sox MVP.

cornball
02-02-2002, 11:53 PM
I must be missing something. I have seen nearly everygame he has played here. First he will not bat second this year. Secondly he was not the MVP of last years team, Batting .230 down the stretch when the team had a winning record. Third how many other teams wanted him.

Does he have range....yes but be boots the easy plays...like i said 22 errors in 109 infield games.

In 2000 he had his best year i dont believe he will ever match it again. I just dont see it.

Daver
02-03-2002, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by cornball
I must be missing something. I have seen nearly everygame he has played here. First he will not bat second this year. Secondly he was not the MVP of last years team, Batting .230 down the stretch when the team had a winning record. Third how many other teams wanted him.

Does he have range....yes but be boots the easy plays...like i said 22 errors in 109 infield games.

In 2000 he had his best year i dont believe he will ever match it again. I just dont see it.

He was voted the MVP by the rest of the team.He is a team leader that plays the game the way it should be played,all out,not worrying about the numbers or the stats.If I was starting a new team from scratch I would make sure he was in my clubhouse.

But then again what the hell do I know? ©

cornball
02-03-2002, 12:11 AM
I just dont see it. I guess that explains why Clayton is not liked.
I know he was voted MVP of 2000 but in no way was he MVP last year even if the players voted for him.

bc2k
02-03-2002, 12:34 AM
I know for a fact the Orioles and at least one other team offered JoseMVP more cash per year and one more year. Nice follow-up daver. The man doesn't care about his stats. Not to be corny, but the man truely only plays for the stat in the win column.

RichH55
02-03-2002, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by cornball
I must be missing something. I have seen nearly everygame he has played here. First he will not bat second this year. Secondly he was not the MVP of last years team, Batting .230 down the stretch when the team had a winning record. Third how many other teams wanted him.

Does he have range....yes but be boots the easy plays...like i said 22 errors in 109 infield games.

In 2000 he had his best year i dont believe he will ever match it again. I just dont see it.


Jose had an .845 OBS last year to Royces .708.......pretty damn big difference

RichH55
02-03-2002, 06:16 AM
Oh....that 2000 year...which was his best ever by far apparently..... .834....last year...this year only .845(wow what a drop off after that unrepeatable 2000 campaign) and could have been better but he was hurt for some time in part by trying to rise above himself and play CF to accomodate the "immense" skills of Royce, which as far as I can tell involve whining(wasnt he the guy who was angry because Ozzie Smith was playing over him near the twilight of his career? Character Guy all the way here)...........

RichH55
02-03-2002, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by mrwag
Does Crede bat left or right? If right, why not platoon him and Jose. I mean, Jose is definately a much better left handed hitter. Why not just let the opposing starting pitcher decide? This would give Crede his shot. Hopefully we'll have enough roster spots.



And what message does this send? Play hard, play well, play with the Sox winning first in your heart and we platoon you? Well Royce would play everyday for the purpose, im assuming here, of showcasing him to free agent bidders? Good call.............Crede at 3B and Jose at SS....keep Royce since there are no takers and he can be injury insurance(a role that he could fill well for a change)

RichH55
02-03-2002, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by cornball
And the years with the Sox have been career years. Last year .245 with 114 K's but with 28 homers.



Am I missing something, whats so great about Jose?


Yes you are......well you managed to correctly state the negative stat in 114 Ks.......he hit .258 not .245(a substancial difference) and also had 50 BBs and a higher slugging % than both Carlos Lee and Paul Konerko(2nd on the team after Mags)......you are going against a great intangibles guy with stats(not the right ones at that) and for a great intangibles guy, the stats are there too........ .845 to .708 OBS is huge..........thats 137 points difference to put that in perspective....thats the difference between Eric Young and Paul Konerko(with an extra 7 points to spare)....and Royce's error total isnt consistent with his career so not only was he a major disappointment last year, but you can reasonably expect worse

cornball
02-03-2002, 09:10 AM
Look Rich.....I have nothing against the man.....all i am saying is you are talking about him like he is Ernie Banks or something...When comparing him to Clayton with on base percentage, sure he looks great but

Compare him to the league in all around play....and if he is playing third ....compare him offensively to the league.

If you like him for his attitude...I understand but ....hes in he is career is a .247 hitter and is below average in the field and that is a fact.

He has shown flashes of brillance I agree, but either he or Clayton has to go if Crede is off to a good start. I have no bias to to which one, each one of them have strong points, in my view.

Because what message would that send to all your prospects...play hard, do well, win MVPs in the minors and sit or stay in the minors.

RichH55
02-03-2002, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Look Rich.....I have nothing against the man.....all i am saying is you are talking about him like he is Ernie Banks or something...When comparing him to Clayton with on base percentage, sure he looks great but

Compare him to the league in all around play....and if he is playing third ....compare him offensively to the league.

If you like him for his attitude...I understand but ....hes in he is career is a .247 hitter and is below average in the field and that is a fact.

He has shown flashes of brillance I agree, but either he or Clayton has to go if Crede is off to a good start. I have no bias to to which one, each one of them have strong points, in my view.

Because what message would that send to all your prospects...play hard, do well, win MVPs in the minors and sit or stay in the minors.


I dont understand why Crede and Jose both cant play...and not platoon either....no reason for Royce to be out there day in and day out barring injury......

And it is simply not a fact that Jose is a below average fielder...its an opinion...He has better than average range, and a better than average arm, as well as better than average at turning the double play, he also demonstrates leadership in the field which I think is generally positive.....he does make errors(that has been gone over at to their significance), but the errors are there, fair enough....he averages around like 30-35 errors in a given year and Royce averages around 20-23....I think that Jose is an average defender who can do the less stat oriented part of the position rather well but will always be dogged by those error totals(this is mostly debateable)

However you do point out the .247 career stat...that is a fact....however a very poorly used fact....Fact is he has shown marked improvement since coming to the White Sox(I dont entirely remember his stint with the Brewers and the circumstances surrounding it) and that is the more prevalent fact...especially since last year was an improvement over 2000 for Jose despite less than ideal conditions...

The way you are looking at this just boggles the mind....I understand that you want Crede to play, so do I, but there are better ways to go about it than a platoon and letting Royce play every day. Who is signed for next year Royce or Jose? Who is the better locker room presence? Who put up unquestionably better hitting stats? The Answer is Jose........KW has all but admitted that Royce was a mistake, why would you want to compound this but taking at bats away from Jose?

And doing your comparisons, whereas Royce did not qualify for the batting title, listing him among just the AL SS who did Royce finishes 11th or so(according to ESPN), but even if he was the 9th best hitting SS in the AL, does that make him good? Thats brutal, and while granted he didnt make a ton of errors, he didnt make a ton of plays either, and we can expect more errors next year. .708 OBS? Brutal, that would be bad for Ozzie Smith if Im not mistaken and that is in a less offensive era and with much better D....Royce I wouldnt say is a gold glove caliber SS, and he had better be to lug that bat around. Whereas Jose is around the 4th or 5th spot for AL 3B and his .845 OBS isnt in a different ballpark than Troy Galus's .898, though Glaus is quite obviously a better hitter and that is significant.........Jose was our 3rd best hitter last year, not that far behind Konerko, and we are a pretty good offensive team.....it would seem foolhardy to me to take him out of the lineup every other day or every third day......Not only is Royce not producing, but hes also going to be gone next year, so there is your opening to play Joe provided you believe in both Joes D and his ability to outhit Royce

RichH55
02-03-2002, 09:54 AM
Cornball...what numbers do you expect to see from Joe Crede if he plays a full season here? And also what would you expect to see from Royce and Jose? Just Curious

cornball
02-03-2002, 01:16 PM
Rich i would expect Crede to hit 260-16-65 with 400 ab's with the promise of being close to a 300 hitter with 25+ homers down after a year or two. The point is next year you will have possiblities, as it is set up now, to have a least 2 rookies in the starting lineup, play Crede now to avoid 3 rookies at one time.

Clayton is gone after the year, anyway.

But IMO we are trying to find a home....somewhere...anywhere for Jose....he is a liability defensively...thats the way i feel. Short is the most important defensive postion on the field. To say he was the third best hitter on a team, is something else we disagree about. (mags, lee, paul, ray) are 4 for sure off the top of my head without thinking...he hit .230 the second half after 282-14-36 first half....the team won the majority of their games the second half.

I understand he is a nice guy, and like i said i dont have anything against him, but the character issue is no reason for playing time. Playing time should be rewarded for performance. As of now he should be ahead of Crede, but i would like to see the backlog at ss and 3rd clear up. Define the roles of the players and the clubhouse will be a more enjoyable place. Winning also helps. Sorry we just disagree.

bjmarte
02-03-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich i would expect Crede to hit 260-16-65 with 400 ab's with the promise of being close to a 300 hitter with 25+ homers down after a year or two. The point is next year you will have possiblities, as it is set up now, to have a least 2 rookies in the starting lineup, play Crede now to avoid 3 rookies at one time.

Clayton is gone after the year, anyway.

But IMO we are trying to find a home....somewhere...anywhere for Jose....he is a liability defensively...thats the way i feel. Short is the most important defensive postion on the field. To say he was the third best hitter on a team, is something else we disagree about. (mags, lee, paul, ray) are 4 for sure off the top of my head without thinking...he hit .230 the second half after 282-14-36 first half....the team won the majority of their games the second half.

I understand he is a nice guy, and like i said i dont have anything against him, but the character issue is no reason for playing time. Playing time should be rewarded for performance. As of now he should be ahead of Crede, but i would like to see the backlog at ss and 3rd clear up. Define the roles of the players and the clubhouse will be a more enjoyable place. Winning also helps. Sorry we just disagree.

Did you see any games at all in the 2000 season?

Soxheads
02-03-2002, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by cornball
anywhere for Jose....he is a liability defensively...thats the way i feel.

Be sure to look at two good articles on the site, showing that only 4 of Jose's errors have cost us games in the last 2 years, and they were in 2000. I can't find the link right now. :smile:

bc2k
02-03-2002, 11:58 PM
how many games did royce cost the sox by failing to turn a double play because of his weak arm. How many of those runners come around to score the winning run?

cornball
02-04-2002, 12:40 AM
BJ i saw most of the games...soxhead i read the articles.....like i told you nothing personel against Jose.....if they wasnt a backlog at short i would embrace him at short....in my view defensively clayton is a better shortstop....and i believe most people would agree to that....

If we look at 2000 like BJ wants to I have no problem...he had a great year offensively especially.....but like i said earlier history is not in your favor when talking of Jose

13 errors in 66 games at 3rd last year......i am not bashing him dont get me wrong....

The case of all these errors didnt cost the sox a run .....i dont buy it....it has to bother a pitcher....first several more pitches and mentally too....

Like i said i just dont see it why all the hype.....get rid of Clayton..put Crede out there. I support Jose as i do all the players i just think you guys overrate him.......

RichH55
02-04-2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich i would expect Crede to hit 260-16-65 with 400 ab's with the promise of being close to a 300 hitter with 25+ homers down after a year or two. The point is next year you will have possiblities, as it is set up now, to have a least 2 rookies in the starting lineup, play Crede now to avoid 3 rookies at one time.

Clayton is gone after the year, anyway.

But IMO we are trying to find a home....somewhere...anywhere for Jose....he is a liability defensively...thats the way i feel. Short is the most important defensive postion on the field. To say he was the third best hitter on a team, is something else we disagree about. (mags, lee, paul, ray) are 4 for sure off the top of my head without thinking...he hit .230 the second half after 282-14-36 first half....the team won the majority of their games the second half.

I understand he is a nice guy, and like i said i dont have anything against him, but the character issue is no reason for playing time. Playing time should be rewarded for performance. As of now he should be ahead of Crede, but i would like to see the backlog at ss and 3rd clear up. Define the roles of the players and the clubhouse will be a more enjoyable place. Winning also helps. Sorry we just disagree.
I was using those things...what do you call them? Stats? to justify Jose was our third best hitter(granted Lee and Ray did have down years)...and with that type of stick he has a spot for the team...and you refuse to answer the questions about the glaring problem in Royces game because? Are not range and the double play important parts of the SS defensive position?


You are admittedly a big Crede fan, so we can look at your outlook on him as slightly through rose-colored glasses and those stats you expect out of him aren't exactly mind blowing, though the promise of him getting better are things to look at...however his prime isnt here yet, so have can you justify benching out 3rd best hitter last year and dealing with the below average bats of both Royce and Joe? You cant win if you dont score runs and Jose helps you do that better than the other options......if we are going Defense first, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, forever why not play Jason Dellaro or find yourself a defensive star in the minors who cant hit.....Field a team of gold glover .100 hitters and see how far you get....We did win in 2000 with jose at SS, so that defensively liability apparently isnt the end-all be-all of wins or losses.

And if you read over the threads...nice guy isnt the message we have been trying to get across.....Leadership, Team MVP equal intangibles and a better ballclub...being a nice guy has nothing to do with it...The difference in a given year between Royce and Jose is about 15 errors(give or take), while you get a better Double play out of Jose and more range...though the general consensus is that Royce is better defensively(the degree is in question).....you wont be getting that much offensively out of Royce and to add Joe and his growing pains to him in the lineup as well as the blackhole at C in terms of hitting and we have 3 outs in the lineup for a team expected to be a contender, not exactly the smartest move you can make especially at the expense of all Jose brings to the table...and no Im not just saying Jose is a good guy...Im saying he is a Leader, a Good/Great Hitter(especially for a SS), and out best option at Short for both this year and the foreseeable future and it is foolhardy to mess with Jose

cornball
02-04-2002, 07:40 AM
Rich what numbers including errors do you see from Jose this year?

we were in the same exact position last year at this time however Jose came off his career year in 2000.

I am just wondering what stats you expect. We can only judge based on stats and projection.....i project Crede better defensively the Jose and Clayton better defesively at short....what offensive numbers do you project from Jose to offset his defense?

RichH55
02-04-2002, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich what numbers including errors do you see from Jose this year?

we were in the same exact position last year at this time however Jose came off his career year in 2000.

I am just wondering what stats you expect. We can only judge based on stats and projection.....i project Crede better defensively the Jose and Clayton better defesively at short....what offensive numbers do you project from Jose to offset his defense?


Well first off, since he put up better numbers in 2001, than 2000, I would like if you would stop calling 2000 his career year since it simply is not true. I don't know if his 2002 will be better than 2001, but probably it will be better somewhat.

Though to answer your question, I expect 135-150 games for Jose.

So in those games you should see a .260-.267 Average though he should walk 55-67 times which should make his OBP more than respectable. Also 30-35 HR and a Slugging Percentage around .500 to .515 which an OBS of .850+, which is a damn nice bat in the lineup though runs scored will depend on if they think him a #2 or #6-7 hitter. Thats how I project Jose........Now let me ask you another question ....How do you project Royce? Because as awful as his season was last year, it was a good year for Royce...Better OBS than normal, higher average, and the least amount of errors he has made in his career, a better year than he had in 2000 though 1999 was by far his career year. Can you see a sub .700 OBS season? Can you see at least a doubling of his error totals? Potentially I can.......how much better do you see Royce getting? Is he magically developing power or a knack for getting on base(those are important in hitters)....Can you see potential locker room problems with Royce? It usually happens everywhere he goes, especially if he isnt playing well, or isnt playing.........Between Royce and Jose it isnt a contest....Even if you flipped the type of person they were and Royce was the leadership guy and Jose was the loud-mouthed malcontent from a baseball prospective Jose would be the choice, but when you factor in the night and day difference in intangibles between the two players, I just dont see how its close

RichH55
02-04-2002, 08:22 AM
Oh and on Royce ...please answer how his lack of skills in turning the DP helps his reputation as a defensive stalwart? How many extra DPs does your SS need to turn in order to make up for an error? These questions are important here




Taken from ESPN.com based on 2000 season(2001 was actually worse in terms of turning double plays for Royce):

"His biggest defensive flaw is a poor pivot on double-play attempts."

Not average........Poor

Kilroy
02-04-2002, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
Taken from ESPN.com based on 2000 season(2001 was actually worse in terms of turning double plays for Royce):

"His biggest defensive flaw is a poor pivot on double-play attempts."

Not average........Poor

Ummm, if you're gonna believe that part of it, then you also must believe that Royce has pretty good range at short. Is that true? That same source you quoted above also stated that Royce has good range.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-04-2002, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
BINGO!!!!!
Not to mention that Manos has been fairly fragile and breakable these last couple of seasons. I wouldn't feel good at all about having Val as our only SS. Keep Clayton and find a way to play Clayton, Valentin AND Crede.

LOL! How many roster spots are we supposed to devote towards ensuring against injury? The reason we keep Tony Graffanino around is the flexibility he offers the team as a utility infielder .

If anything, the "injury insurance" argument cuts against Clayton, not for him. The slug can only play shortstop.

Get a clue, people. This guy has no role on the White Sox, except to close the door to an expanded set of roster moves that would be available if we simply got rid of him, or (better still) had never acquired him in the first place.

:KW
"My bad. I never meant to keep him in the first place."

RichH55
02-04-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Ummm, if you're gonna believe that part of it, then you also must believe that Royce has pretty good range at short. Is that true? That same source you quoted above also stated that Royce has good range.


Well this was prior to the 2001 season....Im willing to hope that his range is better than waht he showed...and it would make sense that it could be since his error total was done last year, which could have had a bunch to do with the fact that he got to less balls(cant make an error on a ball you dont get to).......but I knew he couldnt turn double plays from watching him last year, this was just "professional" scouting so that it wasnt just a fan rant.......and the argument has never just been about Royce's range, its Royce's range relative to Jose's range which I still contend Jose comes out on top.....Im still waiting to hear cornball or others regarding how important turning a double play is to how good defensively a SS can be considered...that to me seems like a pretty big red flag on a guy whose only plus contribution to the team is proported to be his defense

SouthSide_Hitman
02-04-2002, 02:59 PM
and from what I have read about him in the minor leagues......he does it pretty damn good for that matter.

cornball
02-05-2002, 09:16 AM
Rich....i told you i have nothing against Jose but i also said i wish we didnt have a logjam at 3rd and short...i wish Crede could play full time but i do understand KW mentality of caution with prospects....

There is no need to bash Clayton he is not as bad as you think and Jose is not as great as you believe him to be.....it seems like your ready to but him in Cooperstown....i will use your stats..

if he bats 6th or 7th his numbers will not be as good ...first you say he will likely bat 260-267 (i hope so but he has only batted over 259...once in his major league career) if he hits 30-35 HRS ..again career highs last year was his best at 28...OBP over 500 happened once career average(.444)...OPS (not OBS) has never reached 850 ever....

Does he turn DP very well yes he does...probably out of need with the first guy getting on because of his error....he turns the double play very well better than Clayton...the report you quote also says he is a defensive conundrum or puzzle...and also sayshis concentration wanders..but i have my own thoughts

Rich i look at it this way....when a team consistantly gives the opposition more than 3 outs per inning your going to get hurt....Royce is better at the routine play at short in my view....

i think OBP is important...but not the end all of stats as you do...it is more important for the top of the order guys to set the table for the middle of the lineup my view is Jose will be a 254-22-65 guy and hopefully will play better defense at third than he showed at third last year when he fielded a .927

Jose's offense is outstanding for a SS, but not so great at 3rd Royce would be 255-10-55 i would guess....but i support them both...for the beginning all i said was i just dont get why everyone just loves Jose....he has intangables but your making him out to be so much more than what he is....

GO SOX

RichH55
02-05-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich....i told you i have nothing against Jose but i also said i wish we didnt have a logjam at 3rd and short...i wish Crede could play full time but i do understand KW mentality of caution with prospects....

There is no need to bash Clayton he is not as bad as you think and Jose is not as great as you believe him to be.....it seems like your ready to but him in Cooperstown....i will use your stats..

if he bats 6th or 7th his numbers will not be as good ...first you say he will likely bat 260-267 (i hope so but he has only batted over 259...once in his major league career) if he hits 30-35 HRS ..again career highs last year was his best at 28...OBP over 500 happened once career average(.444)...OPS (not OBS) has never reached 850 ever....

Does he turn DP very well yes he does...probably out of need with the first guy getting on because of his error....he turns the double play very well better than Clayton...the report you quote also says he is a defensive conundrum or puzzle...and also sayshis concentration wanders..but i have my own thoughts

Rich i look at it this way....when a team consistantly gives the opposition more than 3 outs per inning your going to get hurt....Royce is better at the routine play at short in my view....

i think OBP is important...but not the end all of stats as you do...it is more important for the top of the order guys to set the table for the middle of the lineup my view is Jose will be a 254-22-65 guy and hopefully will play better defense at third than he showed at third last year when he fielded a .927

Jose's offense is outstanding for a SS, but not so great at 3rd Royce would be 255-10-55 i would guess....but i support them both...for the beginning all i said was i just dont get why everyone just loves Jose....he has intangables but your making him out to be so much more than what he is....

GO SOX



Cornball I would like it if you would admit that you simply dont like Jose. I have been going back and forth here and your argumentation leads me to believe that you simply dont like Jose and you have an axe to grind....which is all well and good, but I would prefer it if you didnt come off like you were just telling it like it is and "correcting a wrong"

I did take some time to come to this conclusion as you beat the point into my head post after post. First you took the time to list Jose's stats which you managed to get things right like his career average and strikeouts, so I know you had some statistical reference guide to work from, however when it came time to list his BA from last year you chose to mark it as .245 instead of .258.....fair enough, everyone will have a typo now and again

Then when people talked about his leadership, work ethic, and intangibles(ie all the little things that help you win a game but dont show up on the stat sheet yet still matter) and you chose to cast this aside as him being a "nice guy" and that it had no point to his game when that clearly was not the point of the arguments for and was essentially changing a positive to a non-factor to suit your argument. You even went as far to question him as White Sox MVP though he was voted it by his fellow players(which might carry some weight as they are rather in the know about what is going on with White Sox Baseball), but MVP sounds good and it seems when talking about good things for Jose you like to cut them down or downplay them all together.

You also chose to mention his .247 career BA, knowing it was not very prevalent to the discussion of Jose in 2002 as it both does not include his walk total, but is misguiding in that Jose has hit consistently better than his brewers marks while with the White Sox and you knew that.

You also called 2000 his career year a couple of times even though he put up better numbers in 2001 as if to say he was regressing as a player and that we couldnt reasonably expect him to play up to his 2000 level again....Downplaying his accomplishments.

Even when you are making a valid point, such as his OBS hasnt been .850 or above, the phrases you use is of someone with an agenda rather than someone trying to make constructive points "OPS (not OBS) has never reached 850 ever...." Never reached...and then ever as if to reinforce the negative impression that it is a shortcoming in his game...well his OBS(which was obviously what I was talking here) was .845 last year so to phrase it in such a way that .850 sounds unfathomable seems to me as someone with an agenda yet again, not just someone pointing out a fact.

You did cede the point that Jose is better on the DP than Royce...however that is not the way you phrased it at all. You refused, though I constantly asked, to state your perception on the relevance of the DP to defensive prowless of a SS(that would be a boon to Jose as it is one of his strengths). Also, when you did give Jose some credit in saying he turns the DP "very well," you could not just let a positive comment go unchallenged, so you added "probably out of need with the first guy getting on because of his error"; again sounding to me as if you have an anti-Jose bias although you proport to love everyone equally.

You also say "Playing Time should be rewarded for performance" though you refuse to acknowledge that if this is the fact that Jose should have never lost the SS job as according to your logic Jose had a career year in 2000(thus meeting the criteria of performing, one would hope) and that Royce's .100 start would not meet the criteria of performing and neither would a .708 OBS or that Jose is playing Winter Ball while Royce is not(which goes to who will be ready to play come Spring).

You also questioned his contract, saying something along the lines of well who else wanted him, as if to detract from his value not only to the White Sox, but also in league circles. When it was pointed out to you that he did recieve a plethora or other offers, many for more money, you chose to ignore this and neither offer more evidence of your argument that he was unwanted(or at the very least not as wanted as Sox fan "assume") or to retract your argument on the basis that it was simply untrue.

You also went on to argue against Jose that when you "consistently" give your opponents more than 3 outs an inning it will come back to hurt you...fair enough on the argument, but you directed all errors as if they were Joses and your word choice was designed to make it sound as if Jose booted every ball that went to him and was the end-all be-all in all pitching related problems that we might have had. In 2000 he made 36 errors(IIRC).....not a great number but out of many many more chances and 154 games usually 9 innings, 36 errors to me does not sound like consistently(ie usually) hurting the staff....This was also siad after you begrudingly gave him credit for his DP ability...>Does not turning a DP save pitches and thus pitchers? If one SS is going to turn 20( or more ) DPs than the alternative, does that not take a pretty good burden off the staff, not to mention if one SS has superior range? You chose to focus on errors and only made passing references to the DP question though I quiered you directly on the DP issue a number of times(and still leave the question there for you).

You also questioned Jose as our 3rd best hitter last year...Not to pull a Rob Neyer here, but
HR OBP SLG OBS
Player A 31 .382 .533 .914
Player B 32 .349 .507 .856
Player C 28 .336 .509 .845
Player D 20 .337 .466 .804
Player E 24 .321 .468 .789
Player F 9 .315 .393 .708

To me A was the best hitter(Mags), B was 2nd best(Konerko), though only slightly better than C(JOSE), and 3 was better by a pretty good margin than his closer two competitors(Ray and Lee, who you said hit better than Jose last year), and a tremendous deal better than Player F(Royce)....where exactly is the argument here?


I think that essentially sums up what I've been saying.....If you dont like Jose that is fine, but if you are going to argue at least admit that so we can take what you have to say with a grain of salt.....My take is that Jose is best suited to play SS and that when allowed to be he is easily a top ten SS in the game today....Ernie Banks? Hardly, but he is our best option and a good player who makes it easy for you to cheer for him. Royce is a "me-first" oriented guy, who doesnt put up the numbers to justify that, he is by no means a bad defensive SS(hes a pretty good one in fact), but he isnt a Gold Glover either and his game doesnt appear to be getting better. Royce also is gone after this year, so he doesnt fit into our plans, so it makes even less sense to play him than when he was just poor hitting, good glove Royce.....I think Royce was a bad aquistion as you certainly could ahve expected the numbers he put up looking over his career and recent years, but that still isnt an excuse to make me consider him a good player......I hope this sums up the argument here....as I assume we will agree to disagree, but I would like to know why you dont like Jose...thank you

bjmarte
02-05-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by RichH55




Cornball I would like it if you would admit that you simply dont like Jose. I have been going back and forth here and your argumentation leads me to believe that you simply dont like Jose and you have an axe to grind....which is all well and good, but I would prefer it if you didnt come off like you were just telling it like it is and "correcting a wrong"

I did take some time to come to this conclusion as you beat the point into my head post after post. First you took the time to list Jose's stats which you managed to get things right like his career average and strikeouts, so I know you had some statistical reference guide to work from, however when it came time to list his BA from last year you chose to mark it as .245 instead of .258.....fair enough, everyone will have a typo now and again

Then when people talked about his leadership, work ethic, and intangibles(ie all the little things that help you win a game but dont show up on the stat sheet yet still matter) and you chose to cast this aside as him being a "nice guy" and that it had no point to his game when that clearly was not the point of the arguments for and was essentially changing a positive to a non-factor to suit your argument. You even went as far to question him as White Sox MVP though he was voted it by his fellow players(which might carry some weight as they are rather in the know about what is going on with White Sox Baseball), but MVP sounds good and it seems when talking about good things for Jose you like to cut them down or downplay them all together.

You also chose to mention his .247 career BA, knowing it was not very prevalent to the discussion of Jose in 2002 as it both does not include his walk total, but is misguiding in that Jose has hit consistently better than his brewers marks while with the White Sox and you knew that.

You also called 2000 his career year a couple of times even though he put up better numbers in 2001 as if to say he was regressing as a player and that we couldnt reasonably expect him to play up to his 2000 level again....Downplaying his accomplishments.

Even when you are making a valid point, such as his OBS hasnt been .850 or above, the phrases you use is of someone with an agenda rather than someone trying to make constructive points "OPS (not OBS) has never reached 850 ever...." Never reached...and then ever as if to reinforce the negative impression that it is a shortcoming in his game...well his OBS(which was obviously what I was talking here) was .845 last year so to phrase it in such a way that .850 sounds unfathomable seems to me as someone with an agenda yet again, not just someone pointing out a fact.

You did cede the point that Jose is better on the DP than Royce...however that is not the way you phrased it at all. You refused, though I constantly asked, to state your perception on the relevance of the DP to defensive prowless of a SS(that would be a boon to Jose as it is one of his strengths). Also, when you did give Jose some credit in saying he turns the DP "very well," you could not just let a positive comment go unchallenged, so you added "probably out of need with the first guy getting on because of his error"; again sounding to me as if you have an anti-Jose bias although you proport to love everyone equally.

You also say "Playing Time should be rewarded for performance" though you refuse to acknowledge that if this is the fact that Jose should have never lost the SS job as according to your logic Jose had a career year in 2000(thus meeting the criteria of performing, one would hope) and that Royce's .100 start would not meet the criteria of performing and neither would a .708 OBS or that Jose is playing Winter Ball while Royce is not(which goes to who will be ready to play come Spring).

You also questioned his contract, saying something along the lines of well who else wanted him, as if to detract from his value not only to the White Sox, but also in league circles. When it was pointed out to you that he did recieve a plethora or other offers, many for more money, you chose to ignore this and neither offer more evidence of your argument that he was unwanted(or at the very least not as wanted as Sox fan "assume") or to retract your argument on the basis that it was simply untrue.

You also went on to argue against Jose that when you "consistently" give your opponents more than 3 outs an inning it will come back to hurt you...fair enough on the argument, but you directed all errors as if they were Joses and your word choice was designed to make it sound as if Jose booted every ball that went to him and was the end-all be-all in all pitching related problems that we might have had. In 2000 he made 36 errors(IIRC).....not a great number but out of many many more chances and 154 games usually 9 innings, 36 errors to me does not sound like consistently(ie usually) hurting the staff....This was also siad after you begrudingly gave him credit for his DP ability...>Does not turning a DP save pitches and thus pitchers? If one SS is going to turn 20( or more ) DPs than the alternative, does that not take a pretty good burden off the staff, not to mention if one SS has superior range? You chose to focus on errors and only made passing references to the DP question though I quiered you directly on the DP issue a number of times(and still leave the question there for you).

You also questioned Jose as our 3rd best hitter last year...Not to pull a Rob Neyer here, but
HR OBP SLG OBS
Player A 31 .382 .533 .914
Player B 32 .349 .507 .856
Player C 28 .336 .509 .845
Player D 20 .337 .466 .804
Player E 24 .321 .468 .789
Player F 9 .315 .393 .708

To me A was the best hitter(Mags), B was 2nd best(Konerko), though only slightly better than C(JOSE), and 3 was better by a pretty good margin than his closer two competitors(Ray and Lee, who you said hit better than Jose last year), and a tremendous deal better than Player F(Royce)....where exactly is the argument here?


I think that essentially sums up what I've been saying.....If you dont like Jose that is fine, but if you are going to argue at least admit that so we can take what you have to say with a grain of salt.....My take is that Jose is best suited to play SS and that when allowed to be he is easily a top ten SS in the game today....Ernie Banks? Hardly, but he is our best option and a good player who makes it easy for you to cheer for him. Royce is a "me-first" oriented guy, who doesnt put up the numbers to justify that, he is by no means a bad defensive SS(hes a pretty good one in fact), but he isnt a Gold Glover either and his game doesnt appear to be getting better. Royce also is gone after this year, so he doesnt fit into our plans, so it makes even less sense to play him than when he was just poor hitting, good glove Royce.....I think Royce was a bad aquistion as you certainly could ahve expected the numbers he put up looking over his career and recent years, but that still isnt an excuse to make me consider him a good player......I hope this sums up the argument here....as I assume we will agree to disagree, but I would like to know why you dont like Jose...thank you

FOB (Friends of Buddy - is that in the dictionary yet?) have a hard time dealing with the idea that someone could choose Manos over Buddy based on reason or that their love of Royce may not be completely reasonable.

Soxboyrob
02-05-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte

FOB (Friends of Buddy - is that in the dictionary yet?) have a hard time dealing with the idea that someone could choose Manos over Buddy based on reason or that their love of Royce may not be completely reasonable.

For crying out loud, can't a person prefer Royce at SS over Jose without being called a Royce lover or Buddy Lee fan? Royce has shown to be a solid defensive player w/ better than average range for his whole career, so I don't really get the ongoing Buddy Lee references. Is Jose the more valuable SS? Probably, especially if you bring hitting into the equation. Is Valentin better defensively? Could be. That takes nothing away from the fact that Royce is good on defense. I guess I just don't understand what appears to be condescending attitude toward those that feel Royce isn't all bad on defense. A decent argument can be made in favor of either. Will it ever just be left at that? I can certainly respect the opinion that Jose is better, despite his hands of granite.

bjmarte
02-05-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


For crying out loud, can't a person prefer Royce at SS over Jose without being called a Royce lover or Buddy Lee fan? Royce has shown to be a solid defensive player w/ better than average range for his whole career, so I don't really get the ongoing Buddy Lee references. Is Jose the more valuable SS? Probably, especially if you bring hitting into the equation. Is Valentin better defensively? Could be. That takes nothing away from the fact that Royce is good on defense. I guess I just don't understand what appears to be condescending attitude toward those that feel Royce isn't all bad on defense. A decent argument can be made in favor of either. Will it ever just be left at that? I can certainly respect the opinion that Jose is better, despite his hands of granite.
First off, as an avid Manos supporter, I have gone on the record before as respecting Royce supporters if their argument is rational and articulate (I'll find the post if you like). My post was ripping on those who refuse to see the value of the opinions held by Manos supporters. I will rip on the next Manos supporter who is being irrational and isn't joking around if it makes you feel better. Which brings me to my next point...

No you can't prefer Royce over Jose without being called an FOB or some other clever phrase I steal from someone else. It is meant, at least from me, as good natured ribbing. I am not doing it to single you our or call you a name like it was a four letter word. If you can't take the joke, too bad. This isn't work or school and no one is going to make me take sensitivity training. If the people running this board don't like it then they have the ability and the right to kick me off. But until then learn to take a joke.

Daver
02-05-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


For crying out loud, can't a person prefer Royce at SS over Jose without being called a Royce lover or Buddy Lee fan? Royce has shown to be a solid defensive player w/ better than average range for his whole career, so I don't really get the ongoing Buddy Lee references. Is Jose the more valuable SS? Probably, especially if you bring hitting into the equation. Is Valentin better defensively? Could be. That takes nothing away from the fact that Royce is good on defense. I guess I just don't understand what appears to be condescending attitude toward those that feel Royce isn't all bad on defense. A decent argument can be made in favor of either. Will it ever just be left at that? I can certainly respect the opinion that Jose is better, despite his hands of granite.

Basically put,if Royce contracts a case of Arrowass,about six people that post here would even care,If Valentin were to contract a case of Arrowass there about two hundred people that would care.

Soxboyrob
02-05-2002, 06:27 PM
Well, I doubt it's anything so serious as it should warrant somebody being censored or kicked off. Sheesh. Nothing like that at all. I guess ribbing is sometimes hard to see when it's in print rather than the spoken word. And I guess I'll never understand the Buddy Lee references. It's no big deal. I prefer Jose from the overall standpoint myself, but feel a little sorry for the people that get so soundly criticized for having a legitimate preference for Clayton. Clayton isn't all that bad at all...in fact, I think that had he started the first 1/3rd of last year the way he finished the final 2/3rds, there'd be a lot more Clayton supporters in all corners. Unfortunately for all involved, his 2 tank months were the most crucial to the team.

2002 is a new year. I think we'll see plenty of Jose at SS when the Sox are facing a decent rightie pitcher and Clayton sits, while Crede plays 3rd base.

cornball
02-06-2002, 08:31 AM
Rich ....i mentioned several times i have nothing against Jose....nor am i a huge fan of his or Clayton...but I am of the White Sox..

I said from the beginning i just do not understand why everyone is doing backflips for Jose..

I see Jose as a player with good range in the field, very good turning the double play but boots alot of easy outs....I see Jose at the plate as a hitter with good power that strikes out alot, doesnt hit well for average but is a good baserunner.

I see Clayton as a smooth fielder and a mediocre bat.

This is what i see and all i was saying the stats to prove these things...i am not trying to make either one of the more than there are or embellish their achievements.

At the end of the year i hope they are both wearing rings if they are with us.

I am not bashing anyone who is a huge fan of either of these guys. my point has always been, focus on winning it all and lately KW has been saying all the right things. I worry about our defense to do so especially with a young inexperienced staff.

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 05:04 PM
Why don't I just pick names out a hat again? So much less math involved...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/manuel-yell.jpg


__________________


too nice to jerry, reality's more like "why don't I just pick lineups out of my a__ like I always do ... that's how I get my brain involved!"

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 07:38 PM
"I'm gonna be throwing BBs and WPs at your a__ Jerry !!! ... if Choice is in the lineup when I'm pitching"

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/burly-glare2.jpg

I guess Burly-mon's among Daver's 200 with the rest of us

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 07:48 PM
"Hey, I'll help stomp any Choice-lovers too! ... I need to find something to do with this stick these days"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/canseco-with-stick.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 07:58 PM
"Hey, we can't tell who's playing SS from up here!! We just want JR to fix these seats ... or give us mountain climbing gear!"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/sox fans with vertigo.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:08 PM
"Well we can see and we all want Manos as SS!--Dump Choice!"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/sox-fans.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:21 PM
"Now that we've got a real leadoff hitter and the pressure's off me, I'd give one of my studly earrings to get Manos back at SS every day!"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/durham on deck.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:29 PM
"Hey Choice ! .... How's about joining me ... for retirement."


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/harold in dugout.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:36 PM
"I'm too much of a team player to get involved in this discussion"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/valentin.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:44 PM
"I may be running my head off the walls at full speed, but my mind's clear enough I can tell Manos ought to be day to day SS!"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/rowand on deck2.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:50 PM
"HEY!! Cool it you guys! If I wanna pull lineups outta my a__, I can pull lineups outta my A___!!! .... or unless KW or JR want somethig different."


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/manuel-inyourface.jpg

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 08:59 PM
"uh Jerry, maybe if you played Manos at SS every day we'd have more than one all-atar on this team!"


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/magglio-face.jpg

cornball
02-07-2002, 09:13 PM
nicely done!!!!!!!!!

Daver
02-07-2002, 09:27 PM
Geez Ode,we don't hear from you for a month or so and you come back with an onslaught,you been saving up or what?

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 09:32 PM
well ... I've been way too busy to check in to WSI much lately ... but I was in a really useless phone con this afternoon and thought I'd add a little Chicago style democracy ... like 20 more votes for Manos at SS --I see you've got a bigger trophy in your sig now

czalgosz
02-07-2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
"uh Jerry, maybe if you played Manos at SS every day we'd have more than one all-atar on this team!"

Well, unless Arod, Jeter, Nomar, and Tejada all have season-ending injuries, I really doubt that Valentin will ever see the all-star game.

FarWestChicago
02-07-2002, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, unless Arod, Jeter, Nomar, and Tejada all have season-ending injuries, I really doubt that Valentin will ever see the all-star game. Yeah, but Ode's picture was way better than yours. :smile:

czalgosz
02-07-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yeah, but Ode's picture was way better than yours. :smile:

That picture gives me a headache - it doesn't even fit on my screen!

I think I can count Magglio's nose hairs...

ode to veeck
02-07-2002, 09:47 PM
you can count his nose hairs ... you should see the 7M file I cut it down from .

west call me on my cell--I'm late for being in palo alto about 10 minutes ago---later

ode

Daver
02-07-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


That picture gives me a headache - it doesn't even fit on my screen!

I think I can count Magglio's nose hairs...

I know the feeling czal,up till a week ago I was stuck with a 13"circa 1989 Samsung monitor.I am quite pleased with my upgrade.

ode to veeck
02-09-2002, 08:23 PM
pretty similar results to those seen here too ... go go manos


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/ode/brown-fans-vote4.jpg