PDA

View Full Version : Before tomorrow's papers - All-City Team 2006


kittle42
05-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Let's beat the ST and Trib to it:

1B - Konerko - not much of a contest with Derrek Lee hurt

2B - Iguchi

SS - Cedeno

3B - Crede - again, no contest with Ramirez sucking bad

C - Pierzynski

RF - Dye

CF - Pierre

LF - Podsednik

Bench - Sox

Manager - Guillen

Starting Pitchers (in no particular order) - Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, Buehrle, Maddux

Closer - Tie - pretty damn close - Jenks has more saves, and Dempster's been very good

jdm2662
05-18-2006, 01:14 PM
That's pretty much accurate. Derrick Lee would certainly be ranked higher than Konerko if he wasn't hurt.

Scottiehaswheels
05-18-2006, 01:16 PM
That's pretty much accurate. Derrick Lee would certainly be ranked higher than Konerko if he wasn't hurt.Um why?

kittle42
05-18-2006, 01:18 PM
Um why?

Assuming Lee was healthy all year, his stats would likely be very good given the caliber of player he is. No knock on Paulie - an excellent player himself -- but I'd take Lee on my team over Konerko every day of the week.

SBSoxFan
05-18-2006, 01:20 PM
but I'd take Lee on my team over Konerko every day of the week.

Except for about the next 60 days!

jdm2662
05-18-2006, 01:22 PM
Um why?

Lee is a more complete player. He is a gold glove first baseman, and is capable of stealing bases. Konerko is certainly good in the field, but he's not exactly a threat on the basepaths. Lee also had an outstanding year last year, and he was off to an even better start than Konerko is having. It's not a knock on Konerko. Lee has a slight edge.

Scottiehaswheels
05-18-2006, 01:23 PM
Assuming Lee was healthy all year, his stats would likely be very good given the caliber of player he is. No knock on Paulie - an excellent player himself -- but I'd take Lee on my team over Konerko every day of the week.Based on what? A single year? Gimme an f'in break! Gold Glove Caliber defense is all DLee had prior to 2005... Konerko is right there with him....
Paul has had 13 more at bats and struck out 400!!!!! fewer times.. DLee has a Konerko average year last year and this isn't even a contest... Oh and Gold Glove defense? I know its miniscule but Paul's career Fielding percentage is .001 better than DLee's...

kittle42
05-18-2006, 01:29 PM
Based on what? A single year? Gimme an f'in break! Gold Glove Caliber defense is all DLee had prior to 2005... Konerko is right there with him....

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leede02.shtml

Pretty comparable as hitters (take a look at the career totals, too). However, Lee can steal and is a gold glover at 1B. As another poster put it, he is a more "complete player."

PatK
05-18-2006, 01:30 PM
I'd put Marshall on the list of pitchers. He's not doing too bad.

kittle42
05-18-2006, 01:30 PM
I'd put Marshall on the list of pitchers. He's not doing too bad.

Who would you take off of the starting 5 then? I can't see Marshall replacing any of those guys.

SouthSide_HitMen
05-18-2006, 01:34 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leede02.shtml

Pretty comparable as hitters (take a look at the career totals, too). However, Lee can steal and is a gold glover at 1B. As another poster put it, he is a more "complete player."

Yes but can Lee hand a World Series ball to Dennis FitzSimmons? I think not.

jdm2662
05-18-2006, 01:42 PM
Yes but can Lee hand a World Series ball to Dennis FitzSimmons? I think not.

He could hand one to anyone, if he still has any from the 2003 World Series...

kittle42
05-18-2006, 01:53 PM
He could hand one to anyone, if he still has any from the 2003 World Series...

ZING!

cleanwsox
05-18-2006, 02:06 PM
I think you could go back and forth with Zambrano and Vazquez as well. Similar stats so far, although Javier has a few more wins :cool:

maurice
05-18-2006, 02:07 PM
I never know what these lists are based on. It looks like kittle pretty much went with current AVE and ERA, which is a common approach. I suppose that roughly estimates "performance so far this year without regard to defense." Another way would be to ask "who is the more valuable player overall," which probably would result in a very different list. You also could consider "bang for your buck," but that's rarely done.

Hangar18
05-18-2006, 02:12 PM
TRIBUNE ALL CITY TEAM
1B - Derrek Lee. Injury notwithstanding, most amazing 1B in the game
2B - Todd Walker. The guy can flat out hit, and is the MVP not for Lee.
SS - Ronnie Cedeno. The guy the Marlins never asked for is an MVP-to-be
3B - Joe Crede. Ok. hes pretty good. barely
RF - Jacque Jones. Hes still a sox killer
CF - Juan Pierre. Speediest CF in Chicago history. Enough Said.
LF - Matt Murton. Prize of Cub Farm system. Will be 30/30 guy.

Pitching. Do we dare go there? with 5 guys all CY YOUNG Caliber,
were just going to go ahead and give this to the Cubs. Enough said.

Tekijawa
05-18-2006, 02:17 PM
Yes but can Lee hand a World Series ball to Dennis FitzSimmons? I think not.

For $30 dollars he could hand him a DON COOPER SIGNED World Series Ball...
http://cgi.ebay.com/DON-COOPER-WHITE-SOX-05-WORLD-SERIES-SIGNED-AUTO-BALL_W0QQitemZ8811261154QQcategoryZ27260QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem
He'd have to spring for $9 Dollars Shipping though!

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2006, 02:21 PM
[B][COLOR=teal]Pitching. Do we dare go there? with 5 guys all CY YOUNG Caliber,
were just going to go ahead and give this to the Cubs. Enough said.

Don't throw in the towel just yet. Wood and Prior are 1-2 in simulated Cy Young voting....
:tongue:

soxfan13
05-18-2006, 02:23 PM
TRIBUNE ALL CITY TEAM
1B - Derrek Lee. Injury notwithstanding, most amazing 1B in the game
2B - Todd Walker. The guy can flat out hit, and is the MVP not for Lee.
SS - Ronnie Cedeno. The guy the Marlins never asked for is an MVP-to-be
3B - Joe Crede. Ok. hes pretty good. barely
RF - Jacque Jones. Hes still a sox killer
CF - Juan Pierre. Speediest CF in Chicago history. Enough Said.
LF - Matt Murton. Prize of Cub Farm system. Will be 30/30 guy.

Pitching. Do we dare go there? with 5 guys all CY YOUNG Caliber,
were just going to go ahead and give this to the Cubs. Enough said.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling: You forgot C -Michael Barrett. He was the first catcher in Chicago history to get a hit with a pink bat and he played for the US in the world cup of baseball

SOecks
05-18-2006, 02:26 PM
What are the odds that Woods makes it into the rotation tomorrow if he throws a gem today? I'll put it at 90%.

kittle42
05-18-2006, 02:27 PM
I never know what these lists are based on. It looks like kittle pretty much went with current AVE and ERA, which is a common approach. I suppose that roughly estimates "performance so far this year without regard to defense." Another way would be to ask "who is the more valuable player overall," which probably would result in a very different list. You also could consider "bang for your buck," but that's rarely done.

Well, I'll do an overall list, too - mine was pretty much just for the current year:

C - Toss up
1B - Lee
2B - Iguchi
SS - Tough one - is Cedeno gonna be consistent? - if so, toss up. If not, Uribe
3B - Also difficult - only a toss up if Crede is now for real offensively for a whole season, otherwise Ramirez
LF - Podsednik
CF - Pierre
RF - Dye
SP - Buehrle, Contreras, Garcia, Zambrano, Vasquez
Closer - Toss up

Scottiehaswheels
05-18-2006, 02:30 PM
C AJP
1B Konerko
2B Iguchi
SS Uribe
3B Crede
LF Pods
CF Anderson
RF Dye
SP Vazquez,Buerhle,Contreras,Garcia,Maddux

Closer Dempster...

We're not gonna need Bobby at all this series so it doesn't matter

SouthSide_HitMen
05-18-2006, 02:32 PM
He could hand one to anyone, if he still has any from the 2003 World Series...

:worship:

kittle42
05-18-2006, 02:35 PM
C AJP
1B Konerko
2B Iguchi
SS Uribe
3B Crede
LF Pods
CF Anderson
RF Dye
SP Vazquez,Buerhle,Contreras,Garcia,Maddux

Closer Dempster...

We're not gonna need Bobby at all this series so it doesn't matter

Fixed that for you. :cool:

Scottiehaswheels
05-18-2006, 02:37 PM
Fixed that for you. :cool:Ha thats fine and all but if you're gonna go with Cedeno for his potential, Anderson is a lock in CF over Pierre for his potential.... Uribe..... eh he'll hit .270 this year..

soxfan13
05-18-2006, 02:38 PM
I think those lists are pretty much what they have done from the beginning of the season til the series..

C- AJ
1B- Paulie
2B- The Gooch
SS- Cedeno
3B- Crede
Lf- Pods
CF- Pierre
RF- Dye

SP- Garcia, Contreras, Vazquez, Buehrle, Maddux
Closer- Jenks

maurice
05-18-2006, 02:40 PM
SS - Tough one - is Cedeno gonna be consistent? - if so, toss up. If not, Uribe
CF - Pierre
Closer - Toss up

IMO, if you consider Cedeno over Uribe, notwithstanding Cedeno's lack of MLB experience, then you have to seriously consider picking Anderson and Jenks. Bear with me. Anderson's AVE obviously is still very low, but Pierre's is only .236. Anderson's OBP and SLG actually are higher than Pierre's. Pierre is faster, but Anderson is much, much better defensively. Perhaps most significiantly for this type of analysis, Pierre arguably is in a 3-year downward slide, while Anderson almost certainly will get much better.

Cedeno and Dempster have played over their heads so far this year. Cedeno already is coming down off of his hot start (.308 AVE in April v. .246 AVE in May v. .136 AVE in the last 7 days). Dempster has a 4.80 career ERA, despite playing exclusively in the NL.

1 Dog
05-18-2006, 03:41 PM
The Cubs have three-four legitimate all-stars: Lee, Maddux, Ramirez, and Zambrano. Only Maddux is both uninjured and consistent so far this year.
In a "normal" year, Maddux and Zambrano make the all Chi Team. This year, only Maddux is a lock.

Lee is difficult, because the Sox have two 1B/DH types. Based on this season, Thome would have to get the DH spot, assuming you had the spot. Lee v. Konerko isn't a tough choice, because Lee is out. I would need to watch a LOT of game film to choose between Lee and Konerko otherwise. Lee is faster, but that's only relevant going 1st-3rd and possibly for range to the right. Neither player is out there stealing bases on a regular basis. Konerko is definitely not a hapless DH forced to play 1st.

Side Note: Having Thome on the bench in an NL park will be scary for other teams. Thome has experience at four positions (corner IF and OF), but isn't as good as either Konerko or Lee at 1B overall. The Sox have instant offense in a can, and Thome can actually play a little defense. Think of it this way. Thome would actually degrade the Sox defense, but he would be a defensive improvement at 1B or RF for many NL teams this season.

Ramirez is hitting right under his weight so far this season. It's more than Lee not protecting him; he has looked bad. That makes it easy: Crede. In terms of their careers, it's pretty much a defense v. offense choice. Before Lee came over, Ramirez had to pick up the Cubs and carry them on his back for long stretches. Crede has looked better recently, of course.

There are some borderline calls on paper, but going by current performance, the Sox would dominate the All-Chicago Team this year.

UofCSoxFan
05-18-2006, 03:51 PM
I take Uribe and his glove over Cedano. Also, despite BA's struggles Im not sure if Pierre is the better option than Anderson. Pierre has no power and an on base percentage under .300 IN THE LEADOFF SPOT.

chaerulez
05-18-2006, 04:02 PM
Let's beat the ST and Trib to it:

1B - Konerko - not much of a contest with Derrek Lee hurt

2B - Iguchi

SS - Cedeno

3B - Crede - again, no contest with Ramirez sucking bad

C - Pierzynski

RF - Dye

CF - Pierre

LF - Podsednik

Bench - Sox

Manager - Guillen

Starting Pitchers (in no particular order) - Contreras, Garcia, Vazquez, Buehrle, Maddux

Closer - Tie - pretty damn close - Jenks has more saves, and Dempster's been very good

Pretty much what the awards should be. Although like one poster said, a case could be made for Sean Marshall.

santo=dorf
05-18-2006, 06:09 PM
Fixed that for you. :cool:
Juan Pierre is not better than BA this year.

Pierre:.229/.269/.289 22 Runs with 2, TWO!!!! RBI's
Anderson: .175/.277/.320 15 Runs, 10 RBI's.

Defensively it's not even close. BA all the way.

Juan is also a 3 pitchers, $6 million, 1 year rental.

:cool:

ilsox7
05-18-2006, 06:34 PM
Juan Pierre is not better than BA this year.

Pierre:.229/.269/.289 22 Runs with 2, TWO!!!! RBI's
Anderson: .175/.277/.320 15 Runs, 10 RBI's.

Defensively it's not even close. BA all the way.

Juan is also a 3 pitchers, $6 million, 1 year rental.

:cool:

But what about Pierre's arm strength?

Brian26
05-18-2006, 09:49 PM
Juan Pierre is not better than BA this year.

Pierre:.229/.269/.289 22 Runs with 2, TWO!!!! RBI's
Anderson: .175/.277/.320 15 Runs, 10 RBI's.

Defensively it's not even close. BA all the way.

Juan is also a 3 pitchers, $6 million, 1 year rental.

:cool:

I hate everything about the north side franchise, but let's not be ignorant here. Pierre is a leadoff hitter in the NL, batting after the #9 hitter (a pitcher) and the #7 and 8 hitter (usually pretty weak on an NL club, and his team is no better). BA is batting 9th after a bunch of guys that are always on base. I've been to at least two games where Anderson struck out with the bases loaded twice or popped-up, leaving 6 guys on base for the game. If you want to talk about production, Pierre's 2 rbi's are probably better than Anderson's 10 rbi's based on opportunities. Does anyone have #'s for LOB this season? Would love to see that.

All that being said, I think it's a toss up at best when you consider BA's defense.

As for Uribe vs. Cedeno, I'd take Uribe in a heartbeat based on defense. Not even close. You can't make these rankings soley on offensive stats. I take Jenks over Dempster too.

santo=dorf
05-18-2006, 10:02 PM
I hate everything about the north side franchise, but let's not be ignorant here. Pierre is a leadoff hitter in the NL, batting after the #9 hitter (a pitcher) and the #7 and 8 hitter (usually pretty weak on an NL club, and his team is no better). BA is batting 9th after a bunch of guys that are always on base. I've been to at least two games where Anderson struck out with the bases loaded twice or popped-up, leaving 6 guys on base for the game. If you want to talk about production, Pierre's 2 rbi's are probably better than Anderson's 10 rbi's based on opportunities. Does anyone have #'s for LOB this season? Would love to see that.

All that being said, I think it's a toss up at best when you consider BA's defense.

As for Uribe vs. Cedeno, I'd take Uribe in a heartbeat based on defense. Not even close. You can't make these ranking soley on offensive stats. I take Jenks over Dempster too.
Even a leadoff hitter should not be on pace for 8 RBI's in a full season. :o:

I had a feeling the order position would be mentioned, so what's Pierre excuse for scoring only 7 more runs than a #9 hitter who hasn't been playing everyday?

rookie
05-18-2006, 10:14 PM
As for Uribe vs. Cedeno, I'd take Uribe in a heartbeat based on defense. Not even close. You can't make these rankings soley on offensive stats. I take Jenks over Dempster too.

Amen. I know I get nervous when Uribe is not in the lineup, and it's not because I miss his bat.

Brian26
05-18-2006, 10:15 PM
Even a leadoff hitter should not be on pace for 8 RBI's in a full season. :o:

I had a feeling the order position would be mentioned, so what's Pierre excuse for scoring only 7 more runs than a #9 hitter who hasn't been playing everyday?

Listen, I'm not making excuses for Pierre, but if you're going to compare Anderson and Pierre, you don't use RBI's as a comparison stat. That's like comparing Podsednik and Lee based on RBI's. They're both leftfielders, but they bring totally different elements to the table offensively.

Your point about runs scored is a good one. That's definitely an indictment of Pierre, no doubt about it.

santo=dorf
05-18-2006, 10:57 PM
Listen, I'm not making excuses for Pierre, but if you're going to compare Anderson and Pierre, you don't use RBI's as a comparison stat. That's like comparing Podsednik and Lee based on RBI's. They're both leftfielders, but they bring totally different elements to the table offensively.

Your point about runs scored is a good one. That's definitely an indictment of Pierre, no doubt about it.

Well I listed Pierre's RBI's to show how historically bad he is right now (How many full season OF's had single digits RBI's?) If I didn't list each player's stats of each category, people would think I'm picking and choosing my numbers. Notice how I didn't mention home runs (not Pierre's game) or stolen bases (not Anderson's game.)

I hope Juan Pierre makes history this season by becoming the first player to average more than $1,000,000 per RBI. :o:

maurice
05-19-2006, 12:02 PM
I agree that RBI is not a great stat to judge leadoff hitters, but it's not a good stat to judge #9 hitters either. Also, a NL leadoff hitter sometimes gets more RBI opportunities than an AL leadoff hitter or #9 hitter. The #9 hitter in the NL is expected to bunt frequently to place runners in scoring position for the leadoff hitter. Despite the Cubs ****ty offense, Pierre has almost as many AB with RiSP as Anderson has.

More to the point, a leadoff hitter obviously should have a higher OBP than a #9 hitter . . . a MUCH higher OBP. Yet, Anderson still has a slightly higher OBP than Pierre.