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View Full Version : The Singleton Deal-Who's Hosing Who?


SOXSINCE'70
01-30-2002, 06:54 PM
I knew Singleton was trade bait,but this is ridiculous .
If Lenny Billiams wants insurance at second base,i've got a name for ya': JERRY HAIRSTON,JR.

A Sox fan can dream,can't he??

Someone should change Ken Williams' medication.He needs smart pills to offset the stupid ones he's been taking this off season.

:schueler

"Now me,personally,I get some damn pitching!!
D'oh!! I'm not the GM anymore.And damn proud to say so myself!! Eliis Burks and Julio Franco don't look so bad now,do they??"

Jerry_Manuel
01-30-2002, 07:14 PM
I think the Sox won this trade.

SOXSINCE'70
01-30-2002, 07:21 PM
Only time will tell.This is not a bad trade. I just wish Lenny Billiams realised he could get more than a prospect for Singleton. :(:

cornball
01-30-2002, 07:32 PM
I think it remains to be seen if we won this trade or not as it does with all prospects......but i also think we are big losers unless another deal or two are made....

Seriously Chris singleton was not the problem, not a superstar but yet hit 300 twice in the past 3 years.... we need major league players, the division is ours to take.

i like the fact that the outfield is clearing up but it would be nice to have someone who is a proven major leauger in return at this point.....

Soxheads
01-30-2002, 07:37 PM
i'm pretty sure the Sox won this one too.

kermittheefrog
01-30-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by SOXSINCE'70
Only time will tell.This is not a bad trade. I just wish Lenny Billiams realised he could get more than a prospect for Singleton. :(:

More than a prospect for Singleton? If you're a real team he's just a 4th outfielder. What did you expect? Too bad we couldn't have shipped him to the D-Backs for Jack Cust thought since they were dying to throw Jack away.

As for Hairston, he sucks. In almost 1000 major league plate appeares he's hit .243 and doesn't walk a lot, that's not a good combination.

Soxheads
01-30-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog

As for Hairston, he sucks. In almost 1000 major league plate appeares he's hit .243 and doesn't walk a lot, that's not a good combination.

:gun "What do you mean he sucks?"

bringbackrobin
01-30-2002, 08:00 PM
Sox won this trade, Singleton for a prospect is good any day, and don't let the Baltimore Propoganda Machine convince you that Jerry Hariston Jr. is anything more than a Triple A backup.

cornball
01-30-2002, 08:18 PM
We will see but as of now all you have are promises or expectations...thats all

RichH55
01-31-2002, 12:47 AM
At the time of this deal it appears a clear Sox victory....If Harris never develops I'm not sure that changes anything(you take your chances and Harris is generally well regarded), now if Singleton turns into WIllie Mays you have a problem, but he wont, so problem solved....Rowand is more than Adequate as is Simmons and LTP is coming circa All_Star game 2002

cornball
01-31-2002, 10:06 AM
Rich you cant say, we won the trade. Noone ever heard of Harris before the trade. Everyones info on him is third party. It is all based on reports from people with some type of bias. We will find out at some point if we got the better part of this deal, but you cant say that now.

What we do know at this time is we traded a major leauge player..an average player for a minor league player who may make an impact. At the same time he may not be able to make the jump to the show.

If your saying it doesnt hurt us because we have people capable behind him, I agree, however it is too early to say we won this trade.

bjmarte
01-31-2002, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Rich you cant say, we won the trade. Noone ever heard of Harris before the trade. Everyones info on him is third party. It is all based on reports from people with some type of bias. We will find out at some point if we got the better part of this deal, but you cant say that now.

What we do know at this time is we traded a major leauge player..an average player for a minor league player who may make an impact. At the same time he may not be able to make the jump to the show.

If your saying it doesnt hurt us because we have people capable behind him, I agree, however it is too early to say we won this trade.

Sounds reasonable to me. This was a good deal to make and a smart decision. That is different from being a good trade. It is not a good trade until we see what Harris does.

By the way, not that I am against KW bashing, but some of the recent bashing seems a little excessive to me. Although many of KW moves have turned out to be bad in the sense that the results have been bad, alot of his moves looked like they had potential to improve the team at the time that he made them.

Again I am not saying that KW hasn't done some assinine things, just that he has taken some aggressive moves that looked somewhat positive at the time but then turned to crap. I want a GM that is going to be aggressive in making the team better, althogh KW has shown he can be over aggressive. All I am saying is rip Kenny for the things that have gone wrong that he has control over, not the things he can't control.

cornball
01-31-2002, 10:41 AM
I am not ripping KW, as a new GM, he is only the headline name. He has input from Hemond and many others, including JR which is the problem IMO. JR holding the purse strings so tight. I like the chance of taking Wells last year.

My point is for this year, the division is up for grabs. Get players that can help us win the division this year, lets make a run.

We have enough prospects and most of them dont pan out.

The tone has changed since the season has ended, from we will take chances and surprise people to lets trade Singleton to say his 1.4 salary. We went from Erstad to Harris.

moochpuppy
01-31-2002, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by cornball
We went from Erstad to Harris.

You can't blame JW for the Erstad deal. It was done until the brass at Disney got cold feet and left Williams at the alter.

Originally posted by cornball
Get players that can help us win the division this year, lets make a run.


That's the thing. We have players that can help us win the division (Rowand, Liefer, Simmons, Crede). With moving Singleton these guys will get a shot in the lineup and/or plate appearances off the bench. This trade IMO gives JM a lot of options and movement of players in the field for late game defensive replacements etc.

All I heard last season was fans bitching about Singleton and wanting him to be traded. Well, JW did just that and got a pretty good prospect in his place. A prospect that has speed and can lead off which is something this team has not had in awhile.

bjmarte
01-31-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by cornball
I am not ripping KW, as a new GM, he is only the headline name. He has input from Hemond and many others, including JR which is the problem IMO. JR holding the purse strings so tight. I like the chance of taking Wells last year.

My point is for this year, the division is up for grabs. Get players that can help us win the division this year, lets make a run.

We have enough prospects and most of them dont pan out.

The tone has changed since the season has ended, from we will take chances and surprise people to lets trade Singleton to say his 1.4 salary. We went from Erstad to Harris.

The comments about ripping KW weren't necessarily directed at you specifically. It was more of an aside based on other posts.

phaedrus
01-31-2002, 12:29 PM
I'm leaning toward this being a bad deal for the Sox. We traded a guy who's proven he can hit at the major league level for a prospect who's never been up. That can be a big jump that a lot of guys never make. I would have much rather seen Singleton combined with someone else (or multiple people) to get one more solid arm for the rotation. Plus I have a lot of Singleton stuff from an auction at the park - not as nice to have that now.

bjmarte
01-31-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by phaedrus
I'm leaning toward this being a bad deal for the Sox. We traded a guy who's proven he can hit at the major league level for a prospect who's never been up. That can be a big jump that a lot of guys never make. I would have much rather seen Singleton combined with someone else (or multiple people) to get one more solid arm for the rotation. Plus I have a lot of Singleton stuff from an auction at the park - not as nice to have that now.
Well now there is a reason to oppose a trade, what to do with the stuff with his name on it.

Are you saying that players should never be traded for prospects? Who would you have traded for?

phaedrus
01-31-2002, 01:04 PM
kidding on the autographed stuff bj

with LA looking for a closer and the Sox potentially looking to deal Howry why not try to combine he and Singleton for one of their more solid starters? And that's just in LA, I'm sure there are others I'm not considering. My point is that if you can only get prospects for a guy and your team is LOADED with prospects, why trade for more when your need is for solid veterans. Also, we traded an OF for an OF/2B when we have far too many OF's in the system and no SS or catching prospects.

cornball
01-31-2002, 01:08 PM
If i was trading for a prospect, it would have to be a can't miss. Everyone that says this is a good trade at this time is taking the word of someone else. In fact when it happened several people were happy we got a guy named Harrison.....

This team needs a starting pitcher, and improved defense. I am not unhappy of the trade, even though at this point Singleton is more established then Simmons or Rowland... lets give Rowland a chance.....

You will not get to the next level by playing to many prospects at once...history is the judge of that.

moochpuppy
01-31-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by cornball


You will not get to the next level by playing to many prospects at once...history is the judge of that.

Who's playing too many prospects at once cornball? If you look at the possible opening day lineup Rowand should be the only one:

2B Durham
3B Valentin
DH Thomas
RF Ordonez
1B Konerko
LF Lee
CF Rowand
C Alomar
SS Clayton

History also shows you don't win championships by loading up with veterans. (Flubbs, Baltimore, Los Angeles, etc)

tiger1972
01-31-2002, 01:18 PM
Singleton Trade - Sox fans should examine this trade in a larger context: Look what the White Sox have done this season and look at what the Yankees have done. Then you will clearly understand why the White Sox will never again contend in our lifetimes. Better to consolidate now and live with the memories. There is absolutely no hope for this franchise. We cannot possibly think we can ever get to the World Series with this management and ownership. It will just not happen and the "laid back" response of White Sox fans is partially to blame. You should all be "storming the Bastille!"
A Sox fan for forty years.

voodoochile
01-31-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by tiger1972
Singleton Trade - Sox fans should examine this trade in a larger context: Look what the White Sox have done this season and look at what the Yankees have done. Then you will clearly understand why the White Sox will never again contend in our lifetimes. Better to consolidate now and live with the memories. There is absolutely no hope for this franchise. We cannot possibly think we can ever get to the World Series with this management and ownership. It will just not happen and the "laid back" response of White Sox fans is partially to blame. You should all be "storming the Bastille!"
A Sox fan for forty years.

Sox are not going to compete with the Yankees in a spending war. They are only going to win by developing their own players and making a run. That is what they are doing. Instead of storming the Bastille, maybe a few more could try storming the turnstyles so the team would have more capital to throw around...

cornball
01-31-2002, 01:45 PM
Who's playing prospects? LOOK at the Starting rotation.....Garland, Wright, Glover and half the bullpen....my point is you are the one all excited of trading for a prospect... with the like of Bourchard coming within the next year, Crede at third, a possible new 2ND baseman, new catcher.....I would say we are or soon will be.....My point is too many on the field at one time is not the makeup of any Champion I know.....

Atlanta although they havent won, has brought up one at a time. Look at the playoff teams that are consistently there. We are in a 20 year building program of JR. When will we stop looking toward next year and do something for the present year.

voodoochile
01-31-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Who's playing prospects? LOOK at the Starting rotation.....Garland, Wright, Glover and half the bullpen....my point is you are the one all excited of trading for a prospect... with the like of Bourchard coming within the next year, Crede at third, a possible new 2ND baseman, new catcher.....I would say we are or soon will be.....My point is too many on the field at one time is not the makeup of any Champion I know.....

Atlanta although they havent won, has brought up one at a time. Look at the playoff teams that are consistently there. We are in a 20 year building program of JR. When will we stop looking toward next year and do something for the present year.

1993 and 1994 were not "looking toward the future". Last year they attempted to make a serious run, but it didn't work out.

Is Singleton going to be on this team in 2003? Is he such a great player that he cannot be replaced? Do the Sox presently have at least one player capable of putting up numbers as good or better?

You are blowing this out of proportion. Singleton wasn't that good and his trade value was minimal.

cornball
01-31-2002, 01:59 PM
In 2003 who else wont be around.

voodoochile
01-31-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by cornball
In 2003 who else wont be around.

Clayton is only signed for the coming season, everyone else is under contract until through 2004 or is too young to be FA eligible.

Whoops, Ray will be a FA after this season also. If he doesn't re-sign, the Sox have two prospects who will probably be ready (one of whom is Harris).

moochpuppy
01-31-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Who's playing prospects? LOOK at the Starting rotation.....Garland, Wright, Glover and half the bullpen....my point is you are the one all excited of trading for a prospect... with the like of Bourchard coming within the next year, Crede at third, a possible new 2ND baseman, new catcher.....I would say we are or soon will be.....My point is too many on the field at one time is not the makeup of any Champion I know.....

Atlanta although they havent won, has brought up one at a time. Look at the playoff teams that are consistently there. We are in a 20 year building program of JR. When will we stop looking toward next year and do something for the present year.

Cornball, just because you bring in veteran's it doesn't equal success. Look at 1993 and 1994 for instance, McDowell (27), Fernandez (23), Alvarez (23) and Bere (22) were all prospects and look at their records over those two seasons. I think Bere alone was 24-7.

Look at this list of veterans the Sox have brought in either by trade, FA signing or other over the past 10 years and tell me how many really made any sort of difference in the Sox. I don't think you'll find too many.

Steve Sax
Tim Raines
George Bell
Kirk McCaskill
Charlie Hough
Ellis Burks
Bo Jackson
Tim Belcher
Dave Stieb
Jose DeLeon
Darrin Jackson
Julio Franco
Scott Sanderson
Paul Assenmacher
Atlee Hammaker
Mike Devereaux
John Kruk
Dave Martinez
Chris Sabo
Jim Abbott
Dave Righetti
Rob Dibble
Tony Phillips
Darren Lewis
Danny Tartabull
Pat Borders
Don Slaught
Kevin Tapani
Joe Magrane
Albert Belle
Tony Pena
Doug Drabek
Danny Darwin
Chuck McElroy
Wil Cordero
Charlie O'Brien
Ruben Sierra
Jaime Navarro
Herbert Perry
Jose Valentin
Charles Johnson
Cal Eldred
Ken Hill
Sandy Alomar Jr
Royce Clayton
Jose Canseco
David Wells
Alan Embree

bjmarte
01-31-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by phaedrus
kidding on the autographed stuff bj

with LA looking for a closer and the Sox potentially looking to deal Howry why not try to combine he and Singleton for one of their more solid starters? And that's just in LA, I'm sure there are others I'm not considering. My point is that if you can only get prospects for a guy and your team is LOADED with prospects, why trade for more when your need is for solid veterans. Also, we traded an OF for an OF/2B when we have far too many OF's in the system and no SS or catching prospects.

Oh yea, I forgot about all the 2B prospects we have in the system.

hold2dibber
01-31-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by cornball
If i was trading for a prospect, it would have to be a can't miss. Everyone that says this is a good trade at this time is taking the word of someone else. In fact when it happened several people were happy we got a guy named Harrison.....

This team needs a starting pitcher, and improved defense. I am not unhappy of the trade, even though at this point Singleton is more established then Simmons or Rowland... lets give Rowland a chance.....

You will not get to the next level by playing to many prospects at once...history is the judge of that.

There are very, very few prospects out there who are "can't miss" and there is no way in hell that any team would part with such a prospect for Chris ".300 OBP and no power" Singleton.

That said, I agree that the team needs a starting pitcher and improved defense. It seems to me that this was a pretty good trade because Singleton earned more than Roward/Simmons but isn't any better. But the thing that irks me anyway is that I suspect that they could have teamed Singleton with one more player (Lee or Durham, probably) to get a solid no. 2 starter, and that would have been a better idea. But that's pure speculation.

cornball
01-31-2002, 04:57 PM
Gentlemen your points are understood, but the goal is to win the championship. I like the idea of a chance to win the World Series. Now is the perfect time to have that chance. Championships are won through pitching. Several of the players we picked up over the years did very well then left, others were on the down slope. I agree Singleton should have been packaged for something to upgrade this team in any area.

For people to say we won the trade, is false. For people to say they like it because they think Rowland is now ready and might be an improvement, is what i believe.

kermittheefrog
01-31-2002, 06:33 PM
We won the trade. Why? We got something for Singleton. Singleton is a 4th outfielder at best anyone would be nuts to give up a decent prospect for a guy like this. Why? Simply because a decent prospect has a chance to be an above average or better major leaguer and Chris Singleton isn't much different from a guy like Brian Hunter or Tom Goodwin who can be had for cheap or nothing. We got a prospect for Chris because he sometimes has a nice looking batting average and the other guys contribute as much as him but don't have the nice looking BA. Singleton is not any kind of rare talent, he is replacable and about to make an excess of a million a year. It's not like we traded away Magglio Ordonez there are a bunch of guys out there with Chris Singleton like skills.

czalgosz
01-31-2002, 07:11 PM
I totally agree, Kermit. There's no way that Singleton was worth more than we got for him.

kermittheefrog
01-31-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I totally agree, Kermit. There's no way that Singleton was worth more than we got for him.

I think people get way too caught up in losing mediocre, replacable talent like Singleton and Perry.

bjmarte
01-31-2002, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I think people get way too caught up in losing mediocre, replacable talent like Singleton and Perry.

I know you are right but I still have a warmspot in my heart for Herbie. He was big time clutch in 2000.

czalgosz
01-31-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I think people get way too caught up in losing mediocre, replacable talent like Singleton and Perry.

Exactly. Like you said, if the Sox miss Singleton so much, there are a bunch of guys that are there for the taking that are just like him.

RichH55
02-01-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I think people get way too caught up in losing mediocre, replacable talent like Singleton and Perry.


Exactly I was all over people who jumped on KW for dealing Perry...what do you want? Singleton gone is simply moving up the timetable on his leaving one year and saving one million...If Rowand is your CF, then as 4th OF is Simmons any worse than Singelton? I doubt it(provided he isnt hurt) Harris is generally regarded as a top prospect (at least top 10) in the O's Org and some regard him as their best position prospect...what is wrong there? Counting on both Hummel and Crede to develop into good major leagues is alot of hope, better to have more options, plus Harris can play OF if need be...........What do you want for Singleton...that is my question? IMO "packaging Chris" with other guys to get a quality arm is a great idea...but show me whats out there? And show me in what way Chris is a deal breaker....granted Chris was in the Erstad deal...but if you are the Angels are you dealing Erstad for Chris or is it Garland and promising arms that got you there?

RichH55
02-01-2002, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Gentlemen your points are understood, but the goal is to win the championship. I like the idea of a chance to win the World Series. Now is the perfect time to have that chance. Championships are won through pitching. Several of the players we picked up over the years did very well then left, others were on the down slope. I agree Singleton should have been packaged for something to upgrade this team in any area.

For people to say we won the trade, is false. For people to say they like it because they think Rowland is now ready and might be an improvement, is what i believe.

How is it false to say we won this trade? It might be premature, ie the Jury is still out, but how is it false? Harris is rather highly regarded and Singleton as has been pointed out isnt anything special and was gone next year regardless.......I think it was a smart trade(hard to argue we won as of yet, but still a deal i make 99 out of 100 times)......I wont hold this against KW ever, but I do want to know why saying we won is flatout false

RichH55
02-01-2002, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by cornball
Gentlemen your points are understood, but the goal is to win the championship. I like the idea of a chance to win the World Series. Now is the perfect time to have that chance. Championships are won through pitching. Several of the players we picked up over the years did very well then left, others were on the down slope. I agree Singleton should have been packaged for something to upgrade this team in any area.

For people to say we won the trade, is false. For people to say they like it because they think Rowland is now ready and might be an improvement, is what i believe.
I also believe that the Sox have positioned themselves to be contenders for a long time.....With LTP on the horizon, and some more prospects there(not exactly sure things I know), 2003 is more the year to take the shot, I dont want to make all or nothing deals now...smart additions that will be here for a few years: yes, rent a player: not so much....>We arent going to spend with the yankees(nor do I want to), so you have to win by being smart...lock up your Mags and Foulke and develop the guys you can and trade when its smart or time to put you over the top....One pitcher doesnt put us over the top, in 2003 maybe that is different....mainly opinion here so take it for whats its worth