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View Full Version : Freddy the junkballer?


INSox56
05-03-2006, 08:55 PM
Despite the notsobad results for Garcia tonight...he yet again never hit so much as 90. It's not the first month of the season now, he should be warmed up enough to get his velocity back if he's as healthy as he says he is.....Is he a junkballer now or what....?

ode to veeck
05-03-2006, 08:56 PM
pretty damn good one by today's outing

INSox56
05-03-2006, 09:00 PM
Oh agreed, but Seattle isn't exactly a bunch of great hitters and freddy could locate his breaking balls today. If he can't locate those one day, he's got an....88 mph fastball to fall back on..

Daver
05-03-2006, 09:06 PM
Learn to ignore the radar gun.

caulfield12
05-03-2006, 09:11 PM
Tell that to Billy Koch.

Daver
05-03-2006, 09:15 PM
Tell that to Billy Koch.

I've learned to ignore you,and your halfassed attempts to sound like you know what you are talking about.

MrRoboto83
05-03-2006, 10:40 PM
Some of the best pitchers in baseball throw nothing but junk. Mixing up speeds keeping batters off balance will win you a lot of games.

lumpyspun
05-03-2006, 10:43 PM
Oh agreed, but Seattle isn't exactly a bunch of great hitters and freddy could locate his breaking balls today. If he can't locate those one day, he's got an....88 mph fastball to fall back on..

Considering how Freddy pitched against Seattle last year, this would qualify as an outstanding outing for him.

SOX ADDICT '73
05-03-2006, 10:46 PM
Some of the best pitchers in baseball throw nothing but junk. Mixing up speeds keeping batters off balance will win you a lot of games.
And I imagine it keeps the arm a lot healthier than trying to pop it at 95 mph 2/3 of the time (quick, someone calculate the combined number of days on the DL over the careers of G. Maddux, J. Moyer, and M. Buehrle, and compare to K. Wood).

QCIASOXFAN
05-03-2006, 11:08 PM
Oh agreed, but Seattle isn't exactly a bunch of great hitters and freddy could locate his breaking balls today. If he can't locate those one day, he's got an....88 mph fastball to fall back on.. Seattle is definitely underachieving when it comes to hitting, they got a pretty good lineup on paper but Beltre and Sexson just suck so far this year.

chidonez
05-03-2006, 11:18 PM
If Freddie matures into a Greg Maddox or a Moyer with age, that's fine with me. As long as his off-speed pitches are hitting their spots and fooling guys, who cares? The speed has been there at times -- I've seen him hit the low 90's this year. If there is a problem, I just hope he's not pitching his arm out trying to get back to 93.

itsnotrequired
05-04-2006, 12:06 AM
I've learned to ignore you,and your halfassed attempts to sound like you know what you are talking about.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

I luuuuv it when Daver gets fiesty.:cool:

The Dude
05-04-2006, 12:41 AM
freddy looked really good tonight despite the speed crap. My only beef was yanking him after just reaching about 80 pitches.

hawkjt
05-04-2006, 01:41 AM
It was the best effort of the year from freddie. If he can throw like this he will do fine. I think he always can reach back for more if he gets in a tight spot but it just did not come up tonite.

he is now a wily veteran.

MadetoOrta
05-04-2006, 07:29 AM
I don't think Maddux has hit 85 mph and he seems to do just fine. Jamie Moyer and Burls too. Unless you're bringing it like Jenks, location and changing speeds is what matters. Chill

Bobbo35
05-04-2006, 07:44 AM
Ya, people have to remember that Freddy is horrible against his former team. Great outing by Freddy, Junkball or no Junkball.

caulfield12
05-04-2006, 08:20 AM
Fine, whatever.

But you can't say the radar gun doesn't matter at all. Everyone knows location, command and movement are just as important. Otherwise, we wouldn't have Thornton, Jenks or Eduardo Sierra. Alan Embree would have been a success with his flat fastball with the Sox, etc. Or Jon Rauch, Felix Diaz, Jon Adkins and Lorenzo Barcelo would still be pitching with the Sox.

It's (radar gun) particularly important in gauging pitchers who are coming back from surgery or injury.

Bobby Howry is another pitcher who comes to mind, as he was throwing 94/95 and was down in the low 90's before the Sox let him go after his injury problems. He's proven that he can be an effective pitcher again at the big league level.

You cannot teach velocity, just like you cannot teach speed. Obviously, Bobby Jenks could still get lit up like a Christmas tree with a 92-95 MPH fastball...just like he could get hit by Vizcaino at 97-99. It all depends on count, location and movement, claro.

Generally, it's better to pitch above 90 and below 80. There are plenty of examples, like Moyer, Glavine, Maddux, Buehrle, Brad Radke, Keith Foulke...it's just that the margin of error is very thin with those guys, as you saw with Buehrle's last couple of outings. Some pitchers adapt when they lost their fastball, other pitchers simply fade away, like Steve Avery.

The margin of error is what makes the difference between Matt Guerrier and Mark Buehrle. The White Sox have shown under KW that they're usually going to go with a Kip Wells type over Chad Bradford or Josh Fogg types every time. Now Lance Broadway, Kris Honel and Haeger might not be fireballers, but, generally, the Sox have gone for the Number 1/2 starter types and missed a bunch of times.

gobears1987
05-04-2006, 09:29 AM
Despite the notsobad results for Garcia tonight...he yet again never hit so much as 90. It's not the first month of the season now, he should be warmed up enough to get his velocity back if he's as healthy as he says he is.....Is he a junkballer now or what....?NO he isn't, he just has deadarm. Buehrle had one that lasted half of the 03 season. (that was why he finished 14-14)

PaulDrake
05-04-2006, 09:32 AM
Tell that to Billy Koch. When you're a one trick pony like Billy Koch the radar gun is everything. When you can actually throw 3 or more pitches for strikes, then the radar gun is a distraction.

INSox56
05-04-2006, 10:39 AM
Oh I really don't care honestly HOW he pitches if he's getting the junk over the plate. But that's the key, is that breaking balls either are there or they're not. And if you don't have it one day and you have to fall back on slight velocity (unless you're like a maddux or a buehrle who have pinpoint control and deception with lack of firepower), you're gonna get hammered. So rock on if he can get those over consistently. I was just noticing, wow, it really looks like he's relying more on junk now than mixing 93-94 fastballs in there.

Iwritecode
05-04-2006, 11:11 AM
But you can't say the radar gun doesn't matter at all.

Yes you can.

Do you know how many pitchers are in the hall of fame that have no idea how hard they threw?

Huisj
05-04-2006, 11:14 AM
Oh I really don't care honestly HOW he pitches if he's getting the junk over the plate. But that's the key

Exactly. What do guys like Maddux, Moyer, and Buerhle have that makes them effective at the velocities they pitch at? Location, changing speeds, and movement.

I know that some people get real smug around here when talking about radar guns, and they love to say how velocity doesn't matter or is overrated. It's true that it doesn't matter much IF you can do those other thing effectively. Changing speeds alone won't help if you can't hit spots well. Hitting spots alone won't help much if you don't have movement. If you have movement but throw everything the same speed, you'll get torched. Those things all have to work together to make an effective pitcher.

Now, if you throw a little harder, you might (as others have mentioned before) have more room for some error in some of those other categories.

Garcia has never struck me as someone with pinpoint location. His stuff has movement, and he can change speeds, but I get a little worried about his long-term success as a junk baller because he hasn't consistently had pinpoint location in the past. He'll have his games where he does have it, but to be good at the velocity he now seems to throw at, he'll need it more.

DaleJRFan
05-04-2006, 11:16 AM
Despite the notsobad results for Garcia tonight...he yet again never hit so much as 90. It's not the first month of the season now, he should be warmed up enough to get his velocity back if he's as healthy as he says he is.....Is he a junkballer now or what....?

Buehrle isn't close to 90 and he seems to be having a pretty good career.

soxfanatlanta
05-04-2006, 11:18 AM
Yes you can.

Do you know how many pitchers are in the hall of fame that have no idea how hard they threw?

I don't understand what you mean. Not knowing Bob Feller's velocity does not mean that his fastball was not bearing down at hitters at 90+. Can you explain?

BTW: I agree with most of the posters here: if Garcia's command is good, then yay for us.

INSox56
05-04-2006, 11:21 AM
Buehrle isn't close to 90 and he seems to be having a pretty good career.

That's not exactly a fair argument because Buehrle specializes in pitching without velocity, but with deception and pinpoint control. Garcia is COMPLETELY different in his pitching style...speed alone does not matter.

Iwritecode
05-04-2006, 11:27 AM
I don't understand what you mean. Not knowing Bob Feller's velocity does not mean that his fastball was not bearing down at hitters at 90+. Can you explain?

I mean it's possible to tell if somebody is a good pitcher or not without looking at the radar gun. You can't just say "Oh this guy only throws 88 MPH. He sucks."

Hence Daver's suggestion to ignore the radar gun. You don't need it to evaluate a pitcher.

soxfanatlanta
05-04-2006, 11:29 AM
I mean it's possible to tell if somebody is a good pitcher or not without looking at the radar gun. You can't just say "Oh this guy only throws 88 MPH. He sucks."

Hence Daver's suggestion to ignore the radar gun. You don't need it to evaluate a pitcher.

Gotcha

Agreed.

BNLSox
05-04-2006, 12:54 PM
How can you expect a stoner to throw hard? I'm just glad he still can walk.

patbooyah
05-04-2006, 01:11 PM
the gets busted for pot and all of a sudden he has a speed problem? i've heard that pot is a stepping stone drug, but i don't know if i believe this.

man. even i think these jokes are getting old. :D:

HotelWhiteSox
05-04-2006, 01:45 PM
One of the radar guns was off as the park one was at least 10 mph higher than the TV one after I watched part of the game (recording). Bobby hit 101 at a time at the park, did that show on TV?

SoxFan76
05-04-2006, 03:04 PM
That's not exactly a fair argument because Buehrle specializes in pitching without velocity, but with deception and pinpoint control. Garcia is COMPLETELY different in his pitching style...speed alone does not matter.

How is he different? He throws strikes and tries to put the ball in play. He gets a lot of ground balls and pitches a lot of innings. The only difference is he's right handed.

This isn't the Freddy Garcia of old. The new Freddy (from what I've heard from Hawk and DJ) PURPOSELY has taken a few miles off his fastball for the sake of control and movement. Again, don't quote me on that, it's just what I heard from Harrelson.

Daver
05-04-2006, 03:37 PM
Fine, whatever.

But you can't say the radar gun doesn't matter at all.



Yes I can, and I will, throw the radar gun away, or use it to clock trees moving at fifty miles an hour, I don't care which, but keep it out of the ballpark. That stupid thing has ruined more pitchers than it will ever help.

DaleJRFan
05-04-2006, 03:40 PM
How is he different? He throws strikes and tries to put the ball in play. He gets a lot of ground balls and pitches a lot of innings. The only difference is he's right handed.

This isn't the Freddy Garcia of old. The new Freddy (from what I've heard from Hawk and DJ) PURPOSELY has taken a few miles off his fastball for the sake of control and movement. Again, don't quote me on that, it's just what I heard from Harrelson.

Garcia was quoted in an interview on chisox.com this offseason about how he took 2-3 mph off of all of his pitches for added movement and control.

The big difference between junkers and Freddy is that if he absolutely needs to cannon one up there at 93, he still can. He just chooses to get guys out other ways now.

caulfield12
05-05-2006, 11:03 AM
I thought of a couple of pitchers in our division that are very similar to Buehrle in Rogers and Maroth. Robertson doesn't exactly blow guys away either...I always think of those goofy racquetball specs that he wears.

I think Zach Greinke (2004 version) is another similar pitcher to Garcia (of this season), in that he gets a lot more movement on the ball at 89-91 but can get it up to 93, 94 or even 95 when he needs to. Garland has definitely improved his command and his confidence with his offspeed stuff....and sometimes when you rely on your offspeed stuff TOO much, it cuts down on your fastball. When I say that, I think of two pitchers in particular, Loaiza and Luis Vizcaino. Luis became a primary slider pitcher...when I watched him with MIL, he threw 93-96 MPH consistently.

I think most pitchers are this way, in particular, Garland....whose pitches seem to flatten out and not have the same movement at 93 as they do at 90 or 91. A lot of Garland's problem this year has simply been location.

Thornton, too, seems like he has better movement in the lower 90's than when he gets it up at 95-97. As I mentioned before, as long as you're in the 90's, you're usually okay. It's the pitchers like Guerrier, Ginter, Rauch, Diaz, Adkins, Stewart, etc., who would be in the upper 80's but lacking location or getting behind in counts that were killed the most frequently.

Iwritecode
05-05-2006, 11:56 AM
Yes I can, and I will, throw the radar gun away, or use it to clock trees moving at fifty miles an hour, I don't care which, but keep it out of the ballpark. That stupid thing has ruined more pitchers than it will ever help.

50 MPH? I didn't think a tree had ever been clocked at higher than 15 MPH. :cool:

Wasn't it Nellie that told that story?

fquaye149
05-05-2006, 12:03 PM
I thought of a couple of pitchers in our division that are very similar to Buehrle in Rogers and Maroth. Robertson doesn't exactly blow guys away either...I always think of those goofy racquetball specs that he wears.

I think Zach Greinke (2004 version) is another similar pitcher to Garcia (of this season), in that he gets a lot more movement on the ball at 89-91 but can get it up to 93, 94 or even 95 when he needs to. Garland has definitely improved his command and his confidence with his offspeed stuff....and sometimes when you rely on your offspeed stuff TOO much, it cuts down on your fastball. When I say that, I think of two pitchers in particular, Loaiza and Luis Vizcaino. Luis became a primary slider pitcher...when I watched him with MIL, he threw 93-96 MPH consistently.

I think most pitchers are this way, in particular, Garland....whose pitches seem to flatten out and not have the same movement at 93 as they do at 90 or 91. A lot of Garland's problem this year has simply been location.

Thornton, too, seems like he has better movement in the lower 90's than when he gets it up at 95-97. As I mentioned before, as long as you're in the 90's, you're usually okay. It's the pitchers like Guerrier, Ginter, Rauch, Diaz, Adkins, Stewart, etc., who would be in the upper 80's but lacking location or getting behind in counts that were killed the most frequently.

Look, we get what you're saying, but the problem with velocity is that unless you actually throw SO FAST that no one can possibly catch up to your fastball (number of pitchers in the history of basebally who could actually throw that fast: none) all that matters is how fast the fastball APPEARS to get to the plate.

A number of things can influence that: velocity, delivery, how well you hide the ball, how tall you are, but most importantly: HOW LIKELY A HITTER IS TO KNOW YOUR FASTBALL IS COMING. By improving his command, Freddy's made it less important to rely on velocity. The difference between 89 mph and 94 mph might be significant all things being equal, but given Freddy's success, all things aren't equal: he seems to be equally effective this year as last year.

Freddy has four pitches, three pitches that would be considered plus pitches. If he continues to PITCH it won't matter how hard he THROWS.