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View Full Version : How bad would the Sox need to be before you would "likely" consider firing Manuel?


PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 06:20 PM
You're the GM. Suppose it's October, 2002 and the Sox season is over. How bad would the Sox have to be before you would "likely" consider firing Manuel?

Give your rationale below.

Jerry_Manuel
01-26-2002, 06:41 PM
Even though I have stated I don't care about the central title, he has to win it. If he can't win the title this year, then he's gone.

czalgosz
01-26-2002, 07:00 PM
After Terry Bevington, Manuel might as well be Connie Mack as far as I'm concerned. If they get rid of him, they better have someone great to replace him.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 07:01 PM
The only reason I haven't given up on Manuel is how the team rallied for him last June. Granted, they wouldn't have needed to rally for him had he approached spring training and the first six weeks of the season with any kind of competence.

Manuel's greatest gift was being smart enough (lucky enough?) to simply get out of the way and stand aside during the 2000 season. At the time I thought he was being smart not to mess with a good thing. However, after all the tinkering he did last year, especially in March and April, I'm not so sure.

I would like to think all the screwy decisions were initiated by rookie GM Williams, but I'm unconvinced Manuel didn't play a significant role, too. The Josh Paul "pinch runner" concept was nothing short of a joke--and I know Manuel was the genius behind that one.

If the team plays better, I would let Manuel stay. Lord knows many managers couldn't even get that much out of their team. However, the guy has underwhelmed me with his managerial skills so far.

AsInWreck
01-26-2002, 08:00 PM
I really can't blame jm for 2001 altogether-it wasn't his fault the entire lineup hit like 70's era shortstops for the first 6+ weeks of the season and 3/5 of his pitching staff went down in flames--if it happens again i'll have to reconsider, though

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I really can't blame jm for 2001 altogether-it wasn't his fault the entire lineup hit like 70's era shortstops for the first 6+ weeks of the season and 3/5 of his pitching staff went down in flames--if it happens again i'll have to reconsider, though

Yes, the injuries piled up very quickly. That's a good reason to cut Jerry some slack. My beef is mostly that he was screwing around with the line up even before the injuries really took hold.

As I recall, Simas was hurt before camp even opened. Eldred went down in his first start. Osuna was injured from the start of the season. These injuries are what panicked Manuel into creating even more screwy line ups back in April.

I don't recall any major injury to a position player until Frank's in late-April. Perry was playing hurt shortly thereafter, too. Valentin's hip soreness didn't occur until June. Am I forgetting someone?

Manuel made a bad situation worse with his moves, IMO. They weren't well thought out--which scares me for the future.

Daver
01-26-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Yes, the injuries piled up very quickly. That's a good reason to cut Jerry some slack. My beef is mostly that he was screwing around with the line up even before the injuries really took hold.

As I recall, Simas was hurt before camp even opened. Eldred went down in his first start. Osuna was injured from the start of the season. These injuries are what panicked Manuel into creating even more screwy line ups back in April.

I don't recall any major injury to a position player until Frank's in late-April. Perry was playing hurt shortly thereafter, too. Valentin's hip soreness didn't occur until June. Am I forgetting someone?

Manuel made a bad situation worse with his moves, IMO. They weren't well thought out--which scares me for the future.

Until I see a viable candidate that is better then JM,I say he stays.Perhaps start a list of competent replacements,but firing him as the scapegoat for an injury riddled team is not the answer.


By the way I like the sig PHG,did Jerry Manuel make that?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by daver
By the way I like the sig PHG,did Jerry Manuel make that?

Indeed, he did. I'm not sure where he found Stabler with sideburns, but I like it!

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
Until I see a viable candidate that is better then JM,I say he stays.Perhaps start a list of competent replacements,but firing him as the scapegoat for an injury riddled team is not the answer.


Interesting. Is it reasonable to say there isn't a large pool of competent major league manager candidates available? Or is the real issue the idea that neither Reinsdorf or Williams are willing or able to find them and sign them?

Paulwny
01-26-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Interesting. Is it reasonable to say there isn't a large pool of competent major league manager candidates available? Or is the real issue the idea that neither Reinsdorf or Williams are willing or able to find them and sign them?

Or,would any of them want to work for JR?

Daver
01-26-2002, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Interesting. Is it reasonable to say there isn't a large pool of competent major league manager candidates available? Or is the real issue the idea that neither Reinsdorf or Williams are willing or able to find them and sign them?

How reasonable is it?Name some names that would be BETTER than Jerry.Not that would be able to do the job.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by daver
How reasonable is it?Name some names that would be BETTER than Jerry.Not that would be able to do the job.

I can't, but that's more a function of philosophy than anything else.

I don't believe the best managerial candidates come from hiring somebody's third base coach, or even older guys who've managed in the big leagues before. There are some good candidates of this kind, I'm sure. I just don't think much of that process.

I would prefer someone who has spent several years learning to manage in the minor leagues. I don't think there is any subsitute for the experience only gotten through managing a team. I really don't care much for guys who've been hanging around the league as coaches and supposedly have knowledge of all the players in the league. If the organization is worth a crap, all that information is filed in a database already.

I think Tony LaRussa was a successful manager because he came in from the minors as manager. I think Terry Bevington wasn't a successful manager because he hung around as a third base coach before being manager.

Yes, it's an extreme example. I'm simply noting the difference of experience.

Daver
01-26-2002, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I can't, but that's more a function of philosophy than anything else.

I don't believe the best managerial candidates come from hiring somebody's third base coach, or even older guys who've managed in the big leagues before. There are some good candidates of this kind, I'm sure. I just don't think much of that process.

I would prefer someone who has spent several years learning to manage in the minor leagues. I don't think there is any subsitute for the experience only gotten through managing a team. I really don't care much for guys who've been hanging around the league as coaches and supposedly have knowledge of all the players in the league. If the organization is worth a crap, all that information is filed in a database already.

I think Tony LaRussa was a successful manager because he came in from the minors as manager. I think Terry Bevington wasn't a successful manager because he hung around as a third base coach before being manager.

Yes, it's an extreme example. I'm simply noting the difference of experience.


Then you would agree with me that Nick Leyya should be one of the names on that list of replacements.

Chisox_cali
01-26-2002, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I can't, but that's more a function of philosophy than anything else.

I don't believe the best managerial candidates come from hiring somebody's third base coach, or even older guys who've managed in the big leagues before. There are some good candidates of this kind, I'm sure. I just don't think much of that process.

I would prefer someone who has spent several years learning to manage in the minor leagues. I don't think there is any subsitute for the experience only gotten through managing a team. I really don't care much for guys who've been hanging around the league as coaches and supposedly have knowledge of all the players in the league. If the organization is worth a crap, all that information is filed in a database already.

I think Tony LaRussa was a successful manager because he came in from the minors as manager. I think Terry Bevington wasn't a successful manager because he hung around as a third base coach before being manager.

Yes, it's an extreme example. I'm simply noting the difference of experience.

What about Bob Brenly? He just did Color than managed Unless he had some other stint that I don't know about

MikeKreevich
01-26-2002, 09:39 PM
I.M.O., Manuel is a below average field manager. As a handler of players and their prima donna attitudes, he is above average. I think that he must shoulder a lot of responsibility for the slow start last year. Is he replaceble? Was Gene Lamont manager of the year? I used to call him" the lump at the end of the bench." Manuel isn't going anywhere, sorta like Jerry Krause.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by daver
Then you would agree with me that Nick Leyya should be one of the names on that list of replacements.

Yes, I would. In fact I would prefer someone like Leyva over some other former MLB manager out of work and looking for a job.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
What about Bob Brenly? He just did Color than managed Unless he had some other stint that I don't know about

The critics were lined up to criticize Brenly for how he handled his pitching staff in the World Series. Winning the championship turned him into a genius with everybody. Maybe I would want Brenly, but I would be satisfied with a solid minor league manager who came to The Show with no strings attached.

IIRC, Earl Weaver came straight from the minors to the Orioles. I don't see what is gained by having a guy hang around the bench. TV analysts are even less likely to have developed the necessary people skills to be a successful manager.

Daver
01-26-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Yes, I would. In fact I would prefer someone like Leyva over some other former MLB manager out of work and looking for a job.

I think Leyva was moved from the AAA club to the A club for a reason,but I may also be looking at shadows.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by daver
I think Leyva was moved from the AAA club to the A club for a reason,but I may also be looking at shadows.

Say what you will about Kenny Williams' role in developing young Sox talent. I think it's pretty obvious he hasn't a clue what he's doing with managerial and coaching selections. Clearly they demoted Leyva, but given who made the decision (Williams), I wouldn't pass any judgement on Leyva's actual ability.

It's more likely Williams had some personal reason not to like Leyva and simply took this chance to replace him at Charlotte.

Remember, this is the guy who gave us Gary Pettis as baserunning and first base coach--and he is still here.

czalgosz
01-26-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Say what you will about Kenny Williams' role in developing young Sox talent. I think it's pretty obvious he hasn't a clue what he's doing with managerial and coaching selections. Clearly they demoted Leyva, but given who made the decision (Williams), I wouldn't pass any judgement on Leyva's actual ability.

It's more likely Williams had some personal reason not to like Leyva and simply took this chance to replace him at Charlotte.

Remember, this is the guy who gave us Gary Pettis as baserunning and first base coach--and he is still here.

I don't know if this is pertinent, but Leyva was also named organizational bunting instructor as well as manager of the Bristol (R) organization. I thought that he was moved to the Bristol organization, not as a demotion, but because the Rookie season starts later, so Leyva can spend more time on his new duties.

I don't know, that could still be a demotion, I guess.

Here is the whole story (http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news_story.jsp?article_id=cws_20020123_playerd evelopment_news&team_id=cws) if you're interested...

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2002, 11:22 PM
Maybe it wasn't a demotion, but clearly roving instructor is far less-visible than AAA manager. If Leyva hopes to someday become an MLB manager again, this was not a good move.

DVG
01-26-2002, 11:47 PM
I like czalgosz' comment that after Terry Bevington, Manuel
could very well be Connie Mack by comparison. Hell, next to
Terry Bevington, Curly Howard is Connie Mack.

Daver
01-27-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Maybe it wasn't a demotion, but clearly roving instructor is far less-visible than AAA manager. If Leyva hopes to someday become an MLB manager again, this was not a good move.

What if the team wants their next manager to have a firm grasp of what is in the minors,and what their abilities are?I am not saying that it is the scenario,but if I was a GM planning for the future,I would make sure that my first choice had a good understanding of what is available to him.

But then again what the hell do I know?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-27-2002, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by daver
What if the team wants their next manager to have a firm grasp of what is in the minors,and what their abilities are?I am not saying that it is the scenario,but if I was a GM planning for the future,I would make sure that my first choice had a good understanding of what is available to him.

That's very possible. I wonder how Leyva feels about it. If I had big league managerial aspirations, I know how I would feel. I would be worried people would forget about me. That's easy to do when you're a roving minors instructor and manager of a short-season rookie team in the Cumberland Gap of Virginia.

Leyva may have personal reasons for wanting this move, too, assuming he wants it.

Daver
01-27-2002, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


That's very possible. I wonder how Leyva feels about it. If I had big league managerial aspirations, I know how I would feel. I would be worried people would forget about me. That's easy to do when you're a roving minors instructor and manager of a short-season rookie team in the Cumberland Gap of Virginia.

Leyva may have personal reasons for wanting this move, too, assuming he wants it.

But,and this is pure speculation,you had been tabbed as the manager to be,wouldn't you want to take a position that gives you plenty of time to asses the talent in the system,and give you some time off that you know you will miss once you make the switch?

Take it for what it's worth,at this point it is all speculation.
And I know nothing about baseball,I have been told by an expert.

doublem23
01-27-2002, 02:20 AM
Although I've greatly fallen out of my once high regard for Jerry Manuel, I still am impressed by him, especially (as George said), rallying the team from 15 games under to get back to .500 and eventually finish above it.

However, this is a critical year for Jerry. He's getting some talent back, and now he needs to use it... And use it wisely. No more silly stuff (such as the random lineup of the day)

WinningUgly!
01-27-2002, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
However, this is a critical year for Jerry. He's getting some talent back, and now he needs to use it... And use it wisely. No more silly stuff (such as the random lineup of the day)

I agree. In 2000 he got a great year out of a team that wasn't expected to do much. Last year he got a free pass because of the injuries This will be the year that he is judged by.

Dadawg_77
01-27-2002, 02:45 AM
For replacements what about Alou?

Daver
01-27-2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
For replacements what about Alou?

Then you may as well keep JM,what is the difference between the two?

Jerry_Manuel
01-27-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Indeed, he did. I'm not sure where he found Stabler with sideburns, but I like it!

I did a search on google. Most of the photos of him were autograph signings and plaque's. So I had to choose between a poster shot and a football card. I choose the card.

MikeKreevich
01-28-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Although I've greatly fallen out of my once high regard for Jerry Manuel, I still am impressed by him, especially (as George said), rallying the team from 15 games under to get back to .500 and eventually finish above it.

However, this is a critical year for Jerry. He's getting some talent back, and now he needs to use it... And use it wisely. No more silly stuff (such as the random lineup of the day)
Doublem23, your opinion is as valid as mine. I think the Sox rallied last year because Manuel stopped playing a lineup with three .100 hitters. I've got an idea and I am going to run it by everyone when the season starts. How about we have a Jerry watch every game. Every manager loses some games for his team each year. If someone feels that Jerry cost us the game, he can post it and everyone can vote. W.S.I. can keep a tally for the season.
This has got to be the toughest time of the year for a baseball fan.