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DrCrawdad
04-27-2006, 09:36 PM
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0743284917.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743284917/sr=1-1/qid=1146191497/ref=sr_1_1/102-2266836-9906506?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books)

Driving home tonight I tuned in to WGN's Sports Central. They were interviewing Rob Neyer about his book, "Big Book of Baseball Blunders : A Complete Guide to the Worst Decisions and Stupidest Moments in Baseball History." Neyer said that one of the biggest blunders in baseball history were Bill Veeck's trades following the Sox 1959 World Series. Neyer said those post-1959 series trades probably cost the Sox several pennants in the 60's.

1951Campbell
04-27-2006, 09:54 PM
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Third_Party_Photo/2005/04/14/1113519834_7839.jpg
"Ah, the hell with defense, I'll leave Buckner out there so he can be in all the pictures."

JohnBasedowYoda
04-27-2006, 10:46 PM
Neyer said those post-1959 series trades probably cost the Sox several pennants in the 60's.


My dad is still furious about what happened post '59.

Lip Man 1
04-27-2006, 10:48 PM
After the 1959 season Bill Veeck authorized a series of trades that brought 'power' to the Sox. They got back Minnie Minoso along with All Star first baseman Roy Sievers as well as third baseman Gene Freese.

In exchange the White Sox gave up a series of minor league stars and bit players on the major league roster.

Unfortunately EVERY ONE of the players that Veeck gave up became an All Star himself within the next few years and stayed stars throughout the 1960's. The players traded:

Norm Cash, Johnny Romano, Earl Battey, Barry Latman, Johnny Callison and Don Mincher.

Depending on who you talk to some say Veeck made these deals out of spite....since he had practically nothing to do with the Sox winning in 1959 (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey put together that team.)

IF the Sox had kept even one of those guys they probably win the pennant both in 1964 and 1967. IF that were to happen the collapse of the franchise in the late 60's never happens and Veeck eventually doesn't have to save the franchise by rebuying it in 1975. (Rich Lindberg wrote that in essence Veeck saved the franchise from himself...)

In fairness to Veeck it must be noted that those three players he got had fine/outstanding years in 1960 and that he at first tried to get future stars in Orlando Cepeda and Bill White before having to 'settle' on what he got. The problem was the guys that he got were in their mid to late 30's at a time in major league baseball where guys rarely played at that point in life.

One other 'fall-out' from the deals. After getting rid of practically the entire depth at catching Manager Al Lopez asked J.C. Martin if he would learn how to catch. Lopez gave him more money and promised him that if it didn't work out he'd keep him on the major league roster as an infielder (his 'normal' position).

Lip

viagracat
04-27-2006, 11:46 PM
Norm Cash, Johnny Romano, Earl Battey, Barry Latman, Johnny Callison and Don Mincher.



Boy, those guys would've looked SWEET in Sox uniforms in the '60s :(:

I assume Brock for Broglio is also in this book.

TDog
04-28-2006, 01:46 AM
... The players traded:

Norm Cash, Johnny Romano, Earl Battey, Barry Latman, Johnny Callison and Don Mincher. ...

Bill Melton and his teammate Norm Cash would have been battling Reggie Jackson for the home run title in 1971. And when Don Mincher hit a home run over the roof in old Comiskey in 1970, he wouldn't have be wearing the visiting A's uniform. But Johnny Callison wouldn't have been in position to get the hit for the Phillies that knocked the Cubs out of first place in 1969.

I have rad that Veeck actually tried to change the face of his team during the 1959 season, but he was unsuccessful in making deals and had to settle for the team that won the American League pennant.

White Sox Randy
04-28-2006, 09:26 AM
I think the one trade that really hurt was trading Callison. If they don't make that one then I think that they win atleast one pennant.

The other 2 trades they got Minoso and Seivers who both had a couple of real good years for the Sox but then they were pretty much done.

PaulDrake
04-28-2006, 09:31 AM
The next time I'm in Chicago I'm going to the Harold Washington Library and look up stories concerning Veeck's post 59 trades in the old microfilms. I was only 9 at the time but I don't remember a mostly hostile reaction to these trades, in fact I distinctly remember Frank Lane praising them. Of course we now know they were a disaster. They probably cost the Sox two pennants (64 and 67) and helped insure the post 67 near total collapse of the franchise.

Lip Man 1
04-28-2006, 11:57 AM
Paul:

For what it's worth the players that I've interviewed from that time period (Pierce, Landis, Shaw) all were shocked and upset by the trades. That seemed to be a common thread among the players. (i.e. 'what the hell is going on?'

As Landis told me, 'we knew how good those guys were and how good they were going to be. We saw them every day in spring training and at points during the season.'

Lip

Vernam
04-28-2006, 12:18 PM
Bill Melton and his teammate Norm Cash would have been battling Reggie Jackson for the home run title in 1971. And when Don Mincher hit a home run over the roof in old Comiskey in 1970, he wouldn't have be wearing the visiting A's uniform. I was at that game but have always remembered it as the first Sox game I attended, which must not be so. First game I saw was the opener of a double-header between the Sox and KC A's in '66 or '67.

Can anyone confirm the Mincher roofshot was '70?

Sorry for the thread hijack. FWIW, my dad agreed w/ the assessment of Veeck after '59 and never could stand the guy. Not sure I'd rather have had Norm Cash at 1B instead of Dick Allen, but for longevity's sake, that probably would've been right.

Vernam

SouthSide_HitMen
04-28-2006, 01:28 PM
In fairness to Veeck it must be noted that those three players he got had fine/outstanding years in 1960 and that he at first tried to get future stars in Orlando Cepeda and Bill White before having to 'settle' on what he got. The problem was the guys that he got were in their mid to late 30's at a time in major league baseball where guys rarely played at that point in life.

Kenny Williams traded several top prospects for guys who brought us the World Series and during this offseason to try for another 2 or 3 years.

While we all praised the offseason moves this season (bringing in Vazquez, Thome) but you have to give up talent to get talent. One day someone my question how we gave up a Chris Young but I think most Sox fans were supportive of these deals.

Two more points in Bill Veeck's defense. He was constantly battled by Chuck Comiskey and he had to sell the team due to health reasons and thus was unable to make trades post 1960 to make the club better during the rest of the decade.

Lip Man 1
04-28-2006, 07:16 PM
Don Mincher did hit a rooftop shot off Bart Johnson on 5-24-70.

Lip

Tragg
04-29-2006, 12:50 AM
Don Mincher did hit a rooftop shot off Bart Johnson on 5-24-70.

Lip

Lip, what is your post 1967 trades?
We sort of followed the same philosophy...brought in aging sluggers....and the results were probably worse.

Lip Man 1
04-29-2006, 12:20 PM
The Bobby Bonds for Brian Downing deal ranks right up there. Especially since they only had Bonds for six weeks!

Lip

TDog
04-29-2006, 12:59 PM
The Bobby Bonds for Brian Downing deal ranks right up there. Especially since they only had Bonds for six weeks!

Lip

And Bill Veeck owned the Sox when that came down. With due respect to Roland Hemond, the philosophy of the Sox was not to build a winner, but to "rent" players who would be playing for a big free-agent payday. Veeck bemoaned that his second purchase of the Sox was quickly followed by free agency. Richie Zisk and Oscar Gamble brought a fun summer. They left, so it was time to further deplete the team's home-grown talent to pick up other stars.

Despite Brian Downing's defensive shortcomings that the Angels were well aware of (Downing made three errors in three innings at third base in a game in Anaheim in 1977), they let Downing blossom into one of the franchise's top offensive stars.

I am sure the Sox intended to rent Bonds for more than six weeks.

elrod
04-30-2006, 12:50 AM
I will always associate Johnny Callison with the Phillie Phlop of 1964.

TornLabrum
04-30-2006, 08:17 AM
I will always associate Johnny Callison with the Phillie Phlop of 1964.

I remember watching a Cubs-Phillies game on TV sometime in the '60s where Callison hit a broken-bat home run. You don't see too many of those, so that's the other think I associate with him.

viagracat
04-30-2006, 10:40 AM
I remember watching a Cubs-Phillies game on TV sometime in the '60s where Callison hit a broken-bat home run. You don't see too many of those, so that's the other think I associate with him.

Man, I forgot about Callison's broken bat homer. He was one strong dude. Thanks for refreshing my memory!:smile:

Lip Man 1
04-30-2006, 12:54 PM
Elrod:

The 'Phillie Phlop' of 1964 was the fault of one man and only one man...manager Gene 'The Genius' Mauch.

There's a reason this guy was in charge of two of the biggest choke jobs in major league history, the 1964 Phillies and the 1982 post season Angels.

To answer your comment, it was Mauch who panicked and actually had his starters going on two and three days rest as the losing streak got going. This after a very long, tough season.

If you're are looking for a 'goat' it's Gene Mauch period....not Johnny Callison, Tony Taylor, Dick Allen, Frank Thomas, Jim Bunning, Clay Daylrumple or Art Mahaffey.

Lip