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TheKittle
04-26-2006, 02:39 PM
I was talking to a couple people sitting next to me at the Angel game yesterday. This question came up. Who is more valuable to his team, Iguchi or Ichiro? They other people said It's not even close, Ichiro. I said you're crazy, Iguchi is much more valuable.

Last year we all know what Iguchi did. Which I explained to them. This year with Pods off to a slow start, Iguchi has been getting on base a little more and guys like Thome and PK have been driving him in. When Pods gets hot and does his thing, Iguchi will go back to giving himself up for the team. When Pods slows down again, Iguchi will do the things he doing now. Iguchi can also hit for power and on top of that he'll play great defense and basically be the best all around 2nd baseman since the BlueJays-Orioles version of Roberto Alomar.

sullythered
04-26-2006, 02:41 PM
I really love Tadahito, but Ichiro is a future Hall of Famer. An argument could be made that he is the best player in all of baseball.

Chip Z'nuff
04-26-2006, 02:42 PM
I like your theory about Iguchi, and agree with everything except him sacrificing himself to move pods to 2nd. Why on earth would Ozzie want Gooch to do that?

voodoochile
04-26-2006, 02:45 PM
Because of where he plays, Iguchi is clearly as important to the Sox as Ichiro is to the M's. His glove work at 2nd has been nothing short of spectacular this season and excellent since he got here.

It's a tough call as to who is the better player, but from what he offers all around, Iguchi is more valuable, IMO.

soxfan13
04-26-2006, 02:58 PM
I love Tad but I think Ichiro is more valuable to his team. I think if Ichiro is taken off the Mariners they become alot worse then they already are. Take Iguchi off the White Sox yeah it would hurt a little but can be replaced a little easier because of the strength of the team as a whole.

lumpyspun
04-26-2006, 03:03 PM
Well, if you are looking at the franchise as a whole, Ichiro wins hands down. I have gone to the game the last couple of nights out here and I can tell you that if Ichiro wasn't on this team the park might have less people than Kansas City. Honestly, he's the only reason worth paying money to watch the Mariners play right now (with Beltre playing AA caliber baseball and Sexson not tearing the cover off the ball). I'm sure Iguchi has his following of Japanese fans, but nothing like what Ichiro has brought to Seattle.

hawkjt
04-26-2006, 03:05 PM
I love how Tad is ripping it up in Seattle where Ichiro is a god and I am sure many in Japan are watching the games.

You could see Tad laughing with Ichiro when he got the double play. And then when Tad was at bat after the homer the M's catcher who was a teammate back in Japan was talking with Gooch.

Go get'em again tonite ,gooch. Bragging rights.

D. TODD
04-26-2006, 03:12 PM
I love Tad but I think Ichiro is more valuable to his team. I think if Ichiro is taken off the Mariners they become alot worse then they already are. Take Iguchi off the White Sox yeah it would hurt a little but can be replaced a little easier because of the strength of the team as a whole. I love da "GOOCH" he is filling many a valuable role for the Sox, but I can't come close to saying he is anywhere near as good or as valuable to a team as Ichiro.

Unregistered
04-26-2006, 03:25 PM
Not sure how valuable you can be if your team is in last place. He might be the best player on his team, but that's not really saying much...

Dan Mega
04-26-2006, 03:28 PM
Take each player off the roster and then look at the lineup. The Sox can still win without Iguchi. The M's cannot win without Ichiro. IMO!

ondafarm
04-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Iguchi is very important to keeping the White Sox a championship caliber team. We'd have had Willie Harris in there otherwise and that would suck.

Ichiro is the only star on a last-place team.

Unregistered
04-26-2006, 03:32 PM
Take each player off the roster and then look at the lineup. The Sox can still win without Iguchi. The M's cannot win without Ichiro. IMO!But... the M's don't win. They almost lost 100 games last year. :dunno:

Ichiro may be more valuable to his current team, but that's just a testament to how good the Sox are, IMO.

rdwj
04-26-2006, 03:35 PM
I love Gooch and all, but come on - that's freakin Ichiro. That guy is a big-time talent that almost any team in the league would kill to have.

In all honesty, I think Cintron could step and and the Sox wouldn't miss a step. Obviously, Cintron is a super-sub that most teams don't have the luxury of having on the bench, but nobody on anybody's bench replaces Ichiro.

batmanZoSo
04-26-2006, 03:37 PM
I love Tad but I think Ichiro is more valuable to his team. I think if Ichiro is taken off the Mariners they become alot worse then they already are. Take Iguchi off the White Sox yeah it would hurt a little but can be replaced a little easier because of the strength of the team as a whole.

So you're saying Gooch has more VORP? :o: :nuts:

gbergman
04-26-2006, 03:42 PM
this would be much easier if they both played the same position, and leadoff or hit 2nd

Iwritecode
04-26-2006, 03:46 PM
lumpyspun mentioned it already. Ichiro is valuable to the franchise as an attendance draw.

As the team goes, he's like Mike Sweeney. A good player on a really bad team. If he wasn't on the team, they'd still be in last. He'd definitely be more valuable to a team that has some decent starting pitching and just needs a lead-off man.

Iguchi on the other hand has come through with his bat and glove more times than I can remember. If they had another guy playing second they'd still be good, just not as good.

The M's are bad. Just not as bad with Ichiro.
The Sox are good. Just not as good without Iguchi.

Intresting discussion. :cool:

Iwritecode
04-26-2006, 03:51 PM
this would be much easier if they both played the same position, and leadoff or hit 2nd

It might be easier to compare 2001 Ichiro with 2005 Iguchi.

Would the M's have won 116 games without him? Doubtful. But they were still pretty good. Probaby would've still been around 100 wins.

Would the Sox have gone wire-to-wire and 11-1 in the playoffs without Iguchi? Maybe, maybe not.

I don't think there is a "right" answer...

daveeym
04-26-2006, 03:51 PM
lumpyspun mentioned it already. Ichiro is valuable to the franchise as an attendance draw.

As the team goes, he's like Mike Sweeney. A good player on a really bad team. If he wasn't on the team, they'd still be in last. He'd definitely be more valuable to a team that has some decent starting pitching and just needs a lead-off man.

Iguchi on the other hand has come through with his bat and glove more times than I can remember. If they had another guy playing second they'd still be good, just not as good.

The M's are bad. Just not as bad with Ichiro.
The Sox are good. Just not as good without Iguchi.

Intresting discussion. :cool: Good summarization. I'd say Ichiro's the better player but Iguchi's the more valuable player to his current team.

Norberto7
04-26-2006, 03:52 PM
Think about it if Iguchi was on the Mariners and Ichiro on the Sox. Would the Mariners' record be significantly improved because of that? I doubt it, and then you could dismissively say about Iguchi, as said previously about Ichiro, "he's the best player on a bad team."

If the Sox had had Ichiro all along, instead of Iguchi, just thinking of this question would probably seem ridiculous to Sox fans.

I'm saying Ichiro is more valuable.

Unregistered
04-26-2006, 03:55 PM
I say we have 'em arm wrestle. Winner take all.

Dice
04-26-2006, 03:58 PM
Think about it if Iguchi was on the Mariners and Ichiro on the Sox. Would the Mariners' record be significantly improved because of that? I doubt it, and then you could dismissively say about Iguchi, as said previously about Ichiro, "he's the best player on a bad team."

If the Sox had had Ichiro all along, instead of Iguchi, just thinking of this question would probably seem ridiculous to Sox fans.

I'm saying Ichiro is more valuable.

You just posted what I was thinking when I first read this post. Swap players and what would be the results? I'm assuming the Mariners would probably be about the same with Iguchi. If Ichiro was on the White Sox they would go from a 90-100 win team to a 100-110 win team.

My vote goes to Ichiro.

maurice
04-26-2006, 04:01 PM
Who is more valuable to his team, Iguchi or Ichiro?

I don't know how to measure the value of a great player to a bad team. It's like the old Andre Dawson debate. OTOH, Ichiro clearly is a much more valuable player overall.

balke
04-26-2006, 04:03 PM
Ichiro without a doubt. Iguchi is a great player, when he can get us +200 hits and steal some more, I'll listen. For now, I'll stick with a good defensive RFer who can flat out hit with some of the best in the league.

scottjanssens
04-26-2006, 04:08 PM
So you're saying Gooch has more VORP? :o: :nuts:
Gooch's 5.2 to Willie's -1.4, so yeah.:tongue:

sox647
04-26-2006, 06:34 PM
Both are great but:

Ichiro = Iguchi + few more years of experience.

fquaye149
04-26-2006, 07:45 PM
lumpyspun mentioned it already. Ichiro is valuable to the franchise as an attendance draw.

As the team goes, he's like Mike Sweeney. A good player on a really bad team. If he wasn't on the team, they'd still be in last. He'd definitely be more valuable to a team that has some decent starting pitching and just needs a lead-off man.

Iguchi on the other hand has come through with his bat and glove more times than I can remember. If they had another guy playing second they'd still be good, just not as good.

The M's are bad. Just not as bad with Ichiro.
The Sox are good. Just not as good without Iguchi.

Intresting discussion. :cool:

I don't know man. I think it's pretty cut and dry that Ichiro, an MVP candidate in many years, is more valuable to his team.

Think about when the Rangers were in last place in 2002 and the Angels won the WS. Was Eckstein more valuable to his team than A-Rod?

I mean you could make a very abstract argument that he was, but I'm sorry, I think that's madness. Now if you want to talk who's more valuable to their team, Ichiro or Thome or something like that...then we might need to take how good the team is into account.

But for a guy who's maybe the 5th best hitter on his team...MAYBE 4th...it's kind of a stretch to say he's more valuable than one of the best hitters in baseball. And the defense thing doesn't hold much water given how good Ichiro is with the glove and throwing arm.

fquaye149
04-26-2006, 07:47 PM
You just posted what I was thinking when I first read this post. Swap players and what would be the results? I'm assuming the Mariners would probably be about the same with Iguchi. If Ichiro was on the White Sox they would go from a 90-100 win team to a 100-110 win team.

My vote goes to Ichiro.

:hawk:
WHERE'S HE GONNA PLAY, DICE?

WHERE'S HE GONNA PLAY?

SoxEd
04-26-2006, 07:58 PM
VORP, schmorp!
:wink:

Iguchi completes the Sox team in the way that enables them to play Ozzieball.

Swap him for Ichiro (great player though he undoubtedly is), and who plays second?
Are we still playing Ozzieball?

I am quite ready to be corrected if this would indeed be the case.

And, before anyone else says it, yes, I know that Who's actually on First etc etc
:redneck

balke
04-26-2006, 09:13 PM
VORP, schmorp!
:wink:

Iguchi completes the Sox team in the way that enables them to play Ozzieball.

Swap him for Ichiro (great player though he undoubtedly is), and who plays second?
Are we still playing Ozzieball?

I am quite ready to be corrected if this would indeed be the case.

And, before anyone else says it, yes, I know that Who's actually on First etc etc
:redneck

Uribe could Play 2nd and be one of if not THE best in the league, Cintron could take over SS. Or Mackowiak could play 2nd I'm sure. Who would play RF for the Mariners that could take Ichiro Suzuki's place?

voodoochile
04-27-2006, 12:47 AM
Uribe could Play 2nd and be one of if not THE best in the league, Cintron could take over SS. Or Mackowiak could play 2nd I'm sure. Who would play RF for the Mariners that could take Ichiro Suzuki's place?

Ichiro, Anderson and Dye... OH MY!!!

The Sox might never lose another game...

mmmmmbeeer
04-27-2006, 12:57 AM
Ichiro, Anderson and Dye... OH MY!!!

The Sox might never lose another game...

:drool:

goofymsfan
04-27-2006, 02:56 AM
Well, if you are looking at the franchise as a whole, Ichiro wins hands down. I have gone to the game the last couple of nights out here and I can tell you that if Ichiro wasn't on this team the park might have less people than Kansas City. Honestly, he's the only reason worth paying money to watch the Mariners play right now (with Beltre playing AA caliber baseball and Sexson not tearing the cover off the ball). I'm sure Iguchi has his following of Japanese fans, but nothing like what Ichiro has brought to Seattle.

Yes, Ichiro draws a large following and now we have Kenji as well, but there are a few other players on the team worth coming to watch just for their defense alone...Yuniesky Betancourt and Jose Lopez are two of them. They are a fun DP combo to watch.

StockdaleForVeep
04-27-2006, 05:09 AM
Teams try to pitch around\avoid ichiro at all costs, teams dont do that for gooch. Also anything hit to right field if not caught is a single at best

Frontman
04-27-2006, 06:42 AM
When it comes to talking "value" there are different ways of talking about it. The first is on-field play. In my opinion, Iguchi is a far better 2nd baseman versus Ichiro as a right fielder. So on that, point for "Gooch."

At the plate, Ichiro. Period. Point for Ichiro.

But then there is draw value. A player might not be the greatest overall, but fans want to see him. He might be in a slump, fans still buy tickets to be there when he breaks out of it. Considering what Ichiro did the past few seasons as a batter, hands down, par none, he's the reason Seattle is selling any tickets at all. Point for Ichiro.

So, as much as I feel our World Champions are superior to all others out there, in a comparison, Ichiro is worth more than Iguchi.

Now, you have to wonder if those two were talking smack at each other at any time over the series....

;)

Front

soxinem1
04-27-2006, 08:21 AM
Take each player off the roster and then look at the lineup. The Sox can still win without Iguchi. The M's cannot win without Ichiro. IMO!

My words exactly! Who would replace him in the lead off spot, Jeremy Reed?

Bobbo35
04-27-2006, 08:28 AM
Look at it this way. Who would you rather have on your team? Nothing against Gooch, but I would go with Ichiro. 200+hits person season, Gold Glover, can steal basically at will......

Dice
04-27-2006, 02:37 PM
:hawk:
WHERE'S HE GONNA PLAY, DICE?

WHERE'S HE GONNA PLAY?


YOU FIND HIM A SPOT! I don't care. Move him into center field and put Brian Anderson on the bench. SIMPLE!

AND please don't you or anybody start an argument about benching Brian Anderson for Ichiro. If Ichiro was on this team he'd be playing somewhere in the White Sox line-up.

rdwj
04-27-2006, 02:58 PM
The easiest way to answer this question is to answer a simple question...

Would KW trade Gooch for Ichiro?

Personally, I think he'd do it in a second!

fquaye149
04-27-2006, 04:41 PM
YOU FIND HIM A SPOT! I don't care. Move him into center field and put Brian Anderson on the bench. SIMPLE!

AND please don't you or anybody start an argument about benching Brian Anderson for Ichiro. If Ichiro was on this team he'd be playing somewhere in the White Sox line-up.

Lol...I was just making fun of Hawk... I agree with you 100%

Pike
04-28-2006, 12:34 PM
Personally I think it is a bit premature to make comparisons.
The "Gooch" is 1 month into his second season in the MLB. Ichiro has been around how many years? "Gooch" shows great promise to be as big as an impact as Ichiro. I think most, if not all, would agree on this forum.

"Gooch's hitting is only getting better and his defense is outstanding. Also, he is a very unselfish player.

Also think trading the two players would simply be "spinning our wheels,"... what we gain in offense, we lose on "diamond" defense. Besides, if Anderson "pans out" this may be a very silly proposition.