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davenicholson
04-25-2006, 10:34 AM
Not sure how this creeped into my consciousness, but it popped into my head on the way home from work yesterday. Has there been any acquisition by the Sox that had you so excited that you were sure that this guy would be The One who would finally get our guys to the World Series, that just didn't work out?

For me, it was the trade for Rocky Colavito in the middle of the 1967 season. In retrospect he was well beyond his prime, but as a 10 year-old, all I could think of was the ton of homers he was going to hit for the Sox. I remember being disappointed, but not to this extent: 190AB, 3 HR, 29 RBI, .221 average. What a terrible trick to pull on a kid! :(:

soxfan13
04-25-2006, 10:36 AM
Todd Ritchie Actually I thought the David Wells might have been the missing link after 2000

34 Inch Stick
04-25-2006, 10:43 AM
Bartolo.

Hokiesox
04-25-2006, 10:50 AM
How did we obtain the Choice? If he was by trade, he gets my vote.

gobears1987
04-25-2006, 10:50 AM
uh, greatest bust in team history, Navarro. And we passed up on Clemens for this bum!?!?!?

RKMeibalane
04-25-2006, 10:51 AM
How did we obtain the Choice? If he was by trade, he gets my vote.

A trade with the Rangers involving Aaron Myette.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2006, 10:56 AM
I actually think it has to be Steve Sax, who was accquired from the Yankees in a exchange for Bob Wickman, Dimingo Jean, and Melido Perez prior to the 1992 season. Perez had a good season, winning sixteen games and finishing amongst the leaders in strikeouts, and Wickman has a good career as a middle-reliever and closer.

Sax was brought in to soldify the Sox infield, which at the time included Thomas, Ventura, and Guillen, with Fisk and Karkovice platooning behind the plate. Instead, Sax solidified his spot on the bench, while Greg Grebeck patrolled second before he broke his foot. 1992. Ugh!

Hangar18
04-25-2006, 10:56 AM
I knew Todd Ritchie was a BAD trade. Schueler thought that since the Cubs were able to RIPOFF the Pirates for a Starter (Jon Lieber) he figured he could give the farm away and get Todd Ritchie away from them. That probably was the most famous of the "bad trades".

Steve Sax maybe was the other. He came here with so much potential and just didnt cut it.

davenicholson
04-25-2006, 10:56 AM
I was also going to mention Steve Sax, but by then I was old enough to know bettter. So I won't. :redface:

batmanZoSo
04-25-2006, 10:57 AM
I would have to say David Wells. But that whole season just went down the crapper. Ugh, 2001...

Albert Belle was a huge disappointment too. He was mediocre in '97 and he didn't turn it on in '98 until we were out of it, then he went on a tear. :rolleyes:

To think we had him and Frank in their primes and it somehow didn't do us much good. I guess pitching really is important.

gobears1987
04-25-2006, 11:12 AM
To think we had him and Frank in their primes and it somehow didn't do us much good. I guess pitching really is important.It is, thus the reason why Navarro was a disaster.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2006, 11:22 AM
After the 1959 season Bill Veeck authorized a series of trades that brought 'power' to the Sox. They got back Minnie Minoso along with All Star first baseman Roy Sievers as well as third baseman Gene Freese.

In exchange the White Sox gave up a series of minor league stars and bit players on the major league roster.

Unfortunately EVERY ONE of the players that Veeck gave up became an All Star himself within the next few years and stayed stars throughout the 1960's. The players traded:

Norm Cash, Johnny Romano, Earl Battey, Barry Latman, Johnny Callison and Don Mincher.

Depending on who you talk to some say Veeck made these deals out of spite....since he had practically nothing to do with the Sox winning in 1959 (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey put together that team.)

IF the Sox had kept even one of those guys they probably win the pennant both in 1964 and 1967. IF that were to happen the collapse of the franchise in the late 60's never happens and Veeck eventually doesn't have to save the franchise by rebuying it in 1975. (Rich Lindberg wrote that in essence Veeck saved the franchise from himself...)

In fairness to Veeck it must be noted that those three players he got had fine/outstanding years in 1960 and that he at first tried to get future stars in Orlando Cepeda and Bill White before having to 'settle' on what he got. The problem was the guys that he got were in their mid to late 30's at a time in major league baseball where guys rarely played at that point in life.

One other 'fall-out' from the deals. After getting rid of practically the entire depth at catching Manager Al Lopez asked J.C. Martin if he would learn how to catch. Lopez gave him more money and promised him that if it didn't work out he'd keep him on the major league roster as an infielder (his 'normal' position).

Lip

doublem23
04-25-2006, 11:30 AM
Albert Belle definitely. I thought the Sox were going to win the World Series in 1997. Man, what a bust that was.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2006, 11:39 AM
Albert Belle definitely. I thought the Sox were going to win the World Series in 1997. Man, what a bust that was.

What was really frustrating was the fact that in spite of all the problems that season, the Sox were still in the race when JR... nevermind. It's too painful, even now.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2006, 11:40 AM
The 'Albert Belle' signing was interesting because of the message it was reportedly sending.

Numerous reports at the time (newspaper) and subsequently through books and articles have stated the reason for the signing was because Jerry Reinsdorf was trying to 'get-back' at his fellow owners for caving in to the players association and voting to settle the 94-95 labor impasse.

Supposedly Reinsdorf's attitude was 'I'll get even...' and he did. He did it by giving Belle an outrageous amount of money (for that time) and driving up salaries for the rest of major league baseball.

And before any of you say 'poppycock,' keep in mind that shortly after the signing Reinsdorf was removed by his fellow owners from a position on the owner's board, the labor relations committee. That board advised the commissioner on all labor matters. (And since Selig is a 'de facto' commissioner, that board in essence made policy.)

Complicating the issue was the fact that unexpectedly Alex Fernandez was made a free agent (service time during the labor impasse was counted). The Sox did not expect this and expected to be able to have Fernandez for the 1997 season. They made a last minute token contract offer which Fernandez basically laughed at as he was signing with the Marlins.

That led to the disasterous Jamie Navarro signing ('Roger Clemens is over-the-hill....' :rolleyes: )

Lip

DaleJRFan
04-25-2006, 11:42 AM
What was really frustrating was the fact that in spite of all the problems that season, the Sox were still in the race when JR... nevermind. It's too painful, even now.

Right on.

soxfanatlanta
04-25-2006, 11:42 AM
It is, thus the reason why Navarro was a disaster.

+1

He was a lousy pitcher, and a jerk; never a good combination.

RKMeibalane
04-25-2006, 11:46 AM
+1

He was a lousy pitcher, and a jerk; never a good combination.

I'll remember Navarro for one reason, and one reason only:

"I can't hit for these guys." -- said by Navarro after a game in which the Sox lost 9-3 in 1999.

The man was such an overrated piece of crap. I still don't know what the Sox saw in him. He was awful for the Cubs the previous season, and had been even worse in Milwaukee before that. Navarro's only successful season was 1992, the last time the Brewers were competitive.

PaulDrake
04-25-2006, 11:57 AM
After the 1959 season Bill Veeck authorized a series of trades that brought 'power' to the Sox. They got back Minnie Minoso along with All Star first baseman Roy Sievers as well as third baseman Gene Freese.

In exchange the White Sox gave up a series of minor league stars and bit players on the major league roster.

Unfortunately EVERY ONE of the players that Veeck gave up became an All Star himself within the next few years and stayed stars throughout the 1960's. The players traded:

Norm Cash, Johnny Romano, Earl Battey, Barry Latman, Johnny Callison and Don Mincher.

Depending on who you talk to some say Veeck made these deals out of spite....since he had practically nothing to do with the Sox winning in 1959 (Frank Lane, Chuck Comiskey put together that team.)

IF the Sox had kept even one of those guys they probably win the pennant both in 1964 and 1967. IF that were to happen the collapse of the franchise in the late 60's never happens and Veeck eventually doesn't have to save the franchise by rebuying it in 1975. (Rich Lindberg wrote that in essence Veeck saved the franchise from himself...)

In fairness to Veeck it must be noted that those three players he got had fine/outstanding years in 1960 and that he at first tried to get future stars in Orlando Cepeda and Bill White before having to 'settle' on what he got. The problem was the guys that he got were in their mid to late 30's at a time in major league baseball where guys rarely played at that point in life.

One other 'fall-out' from the deals. After getting rid of practically the entire depth at catching Manager Al Lopez asked J.C. Martin if he would learn how to catch. Lopez gave him more money and promised him that if it didn't work out he'd keep him on the major league roster as an infielder (his 'normal' position).

Lip You beat me to it Lip. I don't think Veeck made those trades out of spite, he always liked the power game. Additionally he knew that the Sox lack of even one power hitter cost them a pennant or two in the 50s. Everyone was in awe of the Yankees in those days. Also, I think a review of old microfilms will reveal that the consensus in baseball was that the Sox helped themselves after the 59 season. I remember specifically Frank Lane stating the Sox would be a "hell of a team" in 1960. As you pointed out the Sox hit very well in 1960, but the pitching was not up to its usual standards. The Sox went 87-67 and finished a distant second to the Yankees. They followed that up with 86-76 and 85-77 seasons. Just when it looked like they would be another lousy team they made a great trade in 1963, getting Ron Hansen, Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm and Dave Nicholson from the O's for Louis Aparicio and Al Smith. The Sox won 94, 98 and 95 games the following three years.

batmanZoSo
04-25-2006, 12:00 PM
('Roger Clemens is over-the-hill....' :rolleyes: )

Lip

Sometimes the worst move is the one you don't make.

Oh well, though. The events of the late 90s and early 2000s all led in some small, mysterious way to a World Series '05. Clemens would've altered the path of the franchise and who knows what would've happened. We do know what did happen however...eventually. :thumbsup:

Anyone else find it a lot less painful to think of painful Sox memories, since, oh, about October/November of last year? :cool:

Baby Fisk
04-25-2006, 12:01 PM
Santo! SANTO! SANTO! :angry:

soxfanatlanta
04-25-2006, 12:14 PM
Anyone else find it a lot less painful to think of painful Sox memories, since, oh, about October/November of last year? :cool:

Yes. With the WS banner I can look at past gaffes without having to stare.

Randar68
04-25-2006, 12:20 PM
David Wells was the first big-name move since Albert Belle, really. It was a signal of the end of the Scheuler-era type of thinking and the entrance of the KW-era of trades-a-plenty...

Wells had just come off that dominating year and the Sox looked poised to dominate the division for a while. just never materialized...

davenicholson
04-25-2006, 12:21 PM
Just when it looked like they would be another lousy team they made a great trade in 1963... getting Dave Nicholson from the O's... The Sox won 94, 98 and 95 games the following three years.
Sorry to hijack your post, Paul. I couldn't resist! :cool: I want to be an editor when I grow up.

LongLiveFisk
04-25-2006, 12:23 PM
Definitely Albert Belle.

Frater Perdurabo
04-25-2006, 12:36 PM
Albert Belle was a good idea that turned out badly. Frank needed protection in the lineup. In hindsight, they should have gone after a left-handed hitter.

The most disappointing acquisition, though, was George Bell. Not because they traded away Sosa (who was not adjusting to the Hriniak hitting philosophy), but because Bell turned out to have one halfway decent season in 1992, and then wasn't even with the team for the playoffs in 1993 because of a bad attitude and this meager line:

102G 410AB 36R 89H 13HR 64RBI 13BB 49SO .217AVG

For someone batting behind Frank Thomas, these numbers were inexcusable.

The aforementioned highly-regarded Steve Sax was a bust. As much of a fat slob as Bob Wickman can be, it sure would have been nice to have him in the Sox bullpen over the past 15 years.

Chris Sabo was worthless once he put on a Sox uniform.

At least Jaime Navarro (and John Snyder) got the Sox two lynchpins for the 2000 ALCS title: Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin.

soxinem1
04-25-2006, 12:56 PM
C Robert Machado
1B Carlos Martinez
2B Steve Sax
SS Royce Clayton
3B Eddie Williams
OF Phil Bradley
OF Ron LeFlore
OF Claudell Washington
UTL Ron Santo
UTL Billy Jo Robidoux
DH John Kruk
SP Todd Ritchie
SP Jaime Navarro
SP Scott Eyre
SP Rodney Bolton
SP Tim Lollar
RP Jim Winn
RP Ron Scheuler
RP Mike Stanton
RP Reggie Patterson
RP Juan Agosto

If this list was not destined to go 20-142 with a league-leading sh***y attitude I don't know what is.

Couldn't you picture Santo and Clayton looking at each other when the ball rolls through the left side of the INF untouched?

davenicholson
04-25-2006, 12:58 PM
I reminded myself of another one. Barry's dad, Bobby Bonds. Another over-the-hill, half-year bust, another high hope dashed, another year I was old enough to know better!:redface:

TomBradley72
04-25-2006, 01:01 PM
Bobby Bonds
Cory Snyder

Blob
04-25-2006, 01:02 PM
Albert Belle definitely. I thought the Sox were going to win the World Series in 1997. Man, what a bust that was.

That is what I was going to post. I also thought of when the Sox got Bo.

soxinem1
04-25-2006, 01:02 PM
I knew Todd Ritchie was a BAD trade. Schueler thought that since the Cubs were able to RIPOFF the Pirates for a Starter (Jon Lieber) he figured he could give the farm away and get Todd Ritchie away from them. That probably was the most famous of the "bad trades".

Steve Sax maybe was the other. He came here with so much potential and just didnt cut it.

KW made that trade....

my5thbench
04-25-2006, 01:27 PM
ol' sleepy head Claudell Washington didn't work out too well

NardiWasHere
04-25-2006, 01:35 PM
2001 just sucked out all the optimistic enthusiasm I had as a 15 year old. I don't know whether the David Wells move was the most dissapointing aquisition I've ever experienced, but the fact that it contributed to such a depressing year, makes it stick out.

That was the year that the phrase, "Torn Labrum" started to give me bad dreams.

BV2005
04-25-2006, 01:45 PM
I thought Bo Jackson

BeviBall!
04-25-2006, 01:56 PM
Navarro is the only answer that counts. Belle put up great numbers at least. Joey's stats in 1998 in case we've forgotten... 49 HRs, 152 RBIs and .328 average.

These guys should all be mentioned before those two: Mike Deveraux, Cory Snyder, Chris Sabo, George Bell, Todd Ritchie, David Wells, Phil Bradley, Royce Clayton...

Iwritecode
04-25-2006, 02:01 PM
C Robert Machado
1B Carlos Martinez
2B Steve Sax
SS Royce Clayton
3B Eddie Williams
OF Phil Bradley
OF Ron LeFlore
OF Claudell Washington
UTL Ron Santo
UTL Billy Jo Robidoux
DH John Kruk
SP Todd Ritchie
SP Jaime Navarro
SP Scott Eyre
SP Rodney Bolton
SP Tim Lollar
RP Jim Winn
RP Ron Scheuler
RP Mike Stanton
RP Reggie Patterson
RP Juan Agosto

If this list was not destined to go 20-142 with a league-leading sh***y attitude I don't know what is.

Couldn't you picture Santo and Clayton looking at each other when the ball rolls through the left side of the INF untouched?

You didn't add Jose Paniagua. He's not one of the players I thought would make a difference on the team but I believe he's the single worst acquisition in the KW era with his .3 innings pitched and 108.00 ERA.

Amazingly he hasn't been seen or heard from since... :D:

skottyj242
04-25-2006, 02:03 PM
I was actually really excited about Billy Koch coming...I even went out and bought his jersey. The thought of a dominating falme throwing closer really excited me, the only good thing that came out of that deal was us getting Neal Cotts.

Risk
04-25-2006, 02:16 PM
David Wells. After the excitement of the 2000 season, I thought that his acquisition would finally put the Sox over the top. Sadly, that didn't happen.

I didn't think the Albert Belle signing was bad at all, other than the fact that Reinsdorf overpaid.

As much as posters here at WSI have reviled (present company included) Jamie Navarro's stay, I really wasn't shocked that he turned out so bad b/c I always thought he sucked, no matter where he was.

Risk

Dice
04-25-2006, 02:24 PM
David Wells. I was pretty sure that with the offense we had in 2000 and the year he had in 2000 would be a World Championship combination. But of course, that fat bastard sold out on us with his back problems. LOOSE SOME F-ING WEIGHT AND MAYBE YOU WON'T HAVE THOSE ISSUES!

TDog
04-25-2006, 02:35 PM
ol' sleepy head Claudell Washington didn't work out too well

So much to cover. The highly anticipated players who fulfill expectations would require a shorter list.

Washington was acquired for the more anticipated Bobby Bonds who didn't work out (after he came over for several young Sox players, including the unanticipated-for-the-Angels Brian Downing, who would become one of the biggest hitting stars in the history of the franchise).

Nobody from the Cubs, except for Garland, seems to have worked out for the Sox, in my lifetime, anyway. It was a fantasy to believe Santo had anything left. The Cubs GM said when he traded Bell that that he had just given the Sox the pennant, but by the time the Sox got to the ALCS, Bell had disappeared.

Navarro has to top the list. He had been the Cubs' best pitcher in 1996 and became worst pitcher on the Sox staff in 1997. The Sox didn't re-sign Tapani who went to the Cubs and became a solid pitcher in 1997.

The criticism that the Sox could have signed Clemens instead of Navarro is invalid.

Complaining about the judgment that Schueler didn't go after Clemens because he considered the pitcher over the hill ignores that this was the consensus of GMs at the time. Clemens was coming off of a 10-13 season in 1996. He had won 30 games in the previous three seasons and hadn't won more than 11 since 1992.

He was making $5.5 million with the Red Sox and would get $8.4 million as a free agent signing with the Blue Jays. Had the Sox driven up the bidding, the price may have been higher, but as it was, this signing was questioned in baseball circles more than the Sox were questioned about signing Albert Belle for $10 million that year.

The Sox signed Navarro for $5 million, which wouldn't have brought Clemens into Sox pinstripes.

Lip Man 1
04-25-2006, 07:54 PM
TDog:

Except for the fact that after the Sox signed Belle, Clemens specifically asked his agents (the Hendricks brothers) to call the Sox. He was interested in them not the other way around.

It's possible he would have accepted less money because the Sox were considered a 'contender', in the United States and were a team that obviously had his attention.

With that factor in mind I don't think it's incorrect to blame Jumbotron Ron. It sounds to me based on his ill chosen comment he already had it in his mind what he thought about Clemens. Money had nothing to do with this.

Lip

JohnBasedowYoda
04-25-2006, 07:58 PM
a nod towards Koch

FoulTerritory
04-25-2006, 08:05 PM
I don't think its Navarro, because who really thought he was THAT good anyways. We hoped for an upgrade to the rotation, but we all knew he'd had a streaky career.

I also reject the Wells idea because, while yes, in hindsight Sirotka didn't pan out for the Jays, the year preceding the trade saw Sirotka have a lower era than Wells. At the time, I thought it was a bad move to trade a younger pitcher with the lower 2000 era, for an older pitcher who's 2000 era was higher than the guy we traded. KW's logic was that Wells was "big game" but to me that is pie in the sky cause you have to get to the post-season before you worry about that.

I'm going with Jorge Bell. We got rid of then strikeout king Sammy Sosa, for a guy who had recently still been putting up great power numbers. Of course, Bell's knees promptly fell apart, Sammy hit the juice, and the rest is history.

BeeBeeRichard
04-25-2006, 08:08 PM
The much heralded replacement for Oscar Gamble in 1978.

Hit a home run to win the game on opening day, then went .231/5/22 for the season and retired.

http://baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=197804070CHA

HomeFish
04-25-2006, 08:15 PM
David Wells.

Kenny Lofton. When I first heard that the Sox signed Kenny Lofton, my exact quote was "There's no way we lose the division now." He started off that season with like a 16-pitch at-bat against Freddy Garcia in Seattle, that ended in a single. I literally cried with joy at the idea of having a real leadoff man.

JB98
04-25-2006, 08:37 PM
Navarro is the only answer that counts. Belle put up great numbers at least. Joey's stats in 1998 in case we've forgotten... 49 HRs, 152 RBIs and .328 average.

These guys should all be mentioned before those two: Mike Deveraux, Cory Snyder, Chris Sabo, George Bell, Todd Ritchie, David Wells, Phil Bradley, Royce Clayton...

I haven't forgotten Joey's stats, but you have to remember a lot of that damage was done after the horse was out of the barn. IIRC, we were 35-51 at the All-Star break that year, woefully out of the race. Then Joey went ape**** in the second half. He hit about 30 HRs from July 15 on and got the team back to .500. Whoop-dee-doo.

Navarro is the worst free-agent signing in Sox history.

Brian26
04-25-2006, 08:38 PM
Charles Johnson in 2000. He had a great stick, but I always question the idea of changing starting catchers halfway through the season.

Steve Sax and Phil Bradley are excellent examples of what the original poster had in mind.

I'll add two from the 80s: Roy Smalley and Neil Allen. Both guys came here with decent credentials and nice potential, but neither one really panned out (although Allen had a good record in '85 or '86).

FoulTerritory
04-25-2006, 08:40 PM
Charles Johnson in 2000. He had a great stick, but I always question the idea of changing starting catchers halfway through the season.

Steve Sax and Phil Bradley are excellent examples of what the original poster had in mind.

I'll add two from the 80s: Roy Smalley and Neil Allen. Both guys came here with decent credentials and nice potential, but neither one really panned out (although Allen had a good record in '85 or '86).


Neil Allen, good one! I had almost forgotten that name. He was a Hawk guy, right?

wmc
04-25-2006, 11:49 PM
Not sure how this creeped into my consciousness, but it popped into my head on the way home from work yesterday. Has there been any acquisition by the Sox that had you so excited that you were sure that this guy would be The One who would finally get our guys to the World Series, that just didn't work out?

For me, it was the trade for Rocky Colavito in the middle of the 1967 season. In retrospect he was well beyond his prime, but as a 10 year-old, all I could think of was the ton of homers he was going to hit for the Sox. I remember being disappointed, but not to this extent: 190AB, 3 HR, 29 RBI, .221 average. What a terrible trick to pull on a kid! :(:
Ah, the 1967 season. As a child I had high hopes that year too. I remember the Sox getting Colavito and thought the same thing -- all of the homers he would hit. Turns out that he and Walt "No-neck" Williams both hit 3 homers, but No-neck's average was higher!

Bobby Bonds was also a disappointment.

Tragg
04-26-2006, 12:13 AM
Whatever the Sox did after 1967 (I don't know the specifics, but it involved saying goodbye to Agee and Buford at least) gets my vote. 1967 was my first season, and opening with a 10 game or so losing streak to open 1968 wasn't fun.

Honorable mention to Richie Zisk (Forrester and Gossage, I believe), Cory Snyder (Scheuler loved him for some reason), Ritchie, Steve Sax and all Hawk Harrelson trades en masse.

fuzzy_patters
04-26-2006, 12:35 AM
My vote goes to Danny Tartabull. He was not terrible when he played for us, but I thought he was going to be great. He turned out to be a butcher defensively, and his hits seemed to come when the games were no longer in doubt. I never did like him.

TheKittle
04-26-2006, 12:38 AM
Pink Floyd Bannister. Big money contract (at the time) who couldn't handle the pressure of being an ace. Gutless comes to mind when Bannister's name is mentioned.

Mr. White Sox
04-26-2006, 12:41 AM
Bartolo Colon

AND

Billy Koch

Were two guys that I thought would put us over the top. Oops.

Lip Man 1
04-26-2006, 12:49 AM
Kittle:

Bannister's White Sox record:

66-60. Two 16 win seasons, five straight double digit win seasons.
Played on the lousy 1984, 1986 and 1987 White Sox teams.

You could do a hell of a lot worse then Bannister.

Lip

TheKittle
04-26-2006, 01:21 AM
Kittle:

Bannister's White Sox record:

66-60. Two 16 win seasons, five straight double digit win seasons.
Played on the lousy 1984, 1986 and 1987 White Sox teams.

You could do a hell of a lot worse then Bannister.

Lip

PLEASE stop making excuses for the guy. He was suppose to be an ace. You don't pay that kind of money to by a 500 pitcher.

lostletters
04-26-2006, 01:43 AM
Billy Koch, pretty darn awful if you ask me.


Also Colon was NOT a bad aquisition by any means. He was 15-13 with a 3.87 ERA and pitched the entire season. Trust me, you could do ALOT worse. Taking we only had him for one year and with a defense that was fairly weak, I take it he did not do to bad.

David Wells I can agree with, Colon is a poor choice for worst aquisition.

PeteWard
04-26-2006, 03:36 AM
I reminded myself of another one. Barry's dad, Bobby Bonds. Another over-the-hill, half-year bust, another high hope dashed, another year I was old enough to know better!:redface:

Right on. And a crap attitude to boot. He used to dog it on D all the time. Also Steve Kemp and Ron Blomberg. I kinda liked Ron LeFlore but he never panned out either.

PeteWard
04-26-2006, 04:22 AM
The much heralded replacement for Oscar Gamble in 1978.

Hit a home run to win the game on opening day, then went .231/5/22 for the season and retired.

http://baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=197804070CHA

I was in left field grandstand that day. He actually tied it in the 9th and Chet Lemon followed with a bloop double and Wayne Nordhagen drove him in to win it. Vs. Boston.

TDog
04-26-2006, 04:33 AM
TDog:

Except for the fact that after the Sox signed Belle, Clemens specifically asked his agents (the Hendricks brothers) to call the Sox. He was interested in them not the other way around.

It's possible he would have accepted less money because the Sox were considered a 'contender', in the United States and were a team that obviously had his attention.

With that factor in mind I don't think it's incorrect to blame Jumbotron Ron. It sounds to me based on his ill chosen comment he already had it in his mind what he thought about Clemens. Money had nothing to do with this.

Lip


The ill conclusion of Schueler that Clemens' best pitching was behind him was the prevailing view of GMs at the time. Navarro's 1997 salary was less than 60 percent of Clemens' pay for the season. Considering the major question marks surrounding Clemens, I couldn't see the White Sox offering him a lot more than they offered Navarro.

It's possible that Clemens would have come to the Sox for millions of dollars less the Blue Jays offered him, I guess. I heard Cubs fans a few years ago talking about how Jim Thome would play for the Cubs for less than other teams were offering him. Just because that didn't work out doesn't mean Clemens would have turned down bigger money to play for the White Sox.

If you're predisposed to disliking Ron Schueler, I think you can find fault with him. His predecessor in the GM job had better drafts. His successor has done a better job of building a team. And, really, signing Navarro while letting Tapani go to the Cubs was a mistake. Certainly I'm not saying Schueler shouldn't be criticized.

But objectively, I don't think you can blame Schueler for Clemens not signing with the White Sox.

PeteWard
04-26-2006, 04:41 AM
Whatever the Sox did after 1967 (I don't know the specifics, but it involved saying goodbye to Agee and Buford at least) gets my vote. 1967 was my first season, and opening with a 10 game or so losing streak to open 1968 wasn't fun.

Honorable mention to Richie Zisk (Forrester and Gossage, I believe), Cory Snyder (Scheuler loved him for some reason), Ritchie, Steve Sax and all Hawk Harrelson trades en masse.

I think they signed Zisk as a free agent. He really fadede during that horrible second half of August & September when KC won a gazillion games. Big liability in the field as well. Not sure who they got for Terry Forster (to LA right?) Also was Gossage traded or did Evil Mad King George sign him?

TDog
04-26-2006, 05:16 AM
I think they signed Zisk as a free agent. He really fadede during that horrible second half of August & September when KC won a gazillion games. Big liability in the field as well. Not sure who they got for Terry Forster (to LA right?) Also was Gossage traded or did Evil Mad King George sign him?

Richie Zisk and Silvio Martinez came to the Sox for Rich Gossage and Terry Forster on Dec. 10, 1976. Richie Zisk had what may have been his career year -- his only 30-home run season, his high in RBIs and a .290 batting average. He became only the third Sox player to hit 30 home runs in a season (although Bill Melton and Dick Allen did it more than once). Richie Zisk was not a disappointment with the Sox.

In the early days of free agency, Bill Veeck believed in "renting" the Richie Zisks and signing the Royle Stillmans.

Texas signed Zisk as a free agent the next year. With his best season behind him, he proved a disappointment to the Rangers.

Gossage went to the Yankees in 1978 and became a legend. Forster went to the Dodgers in 1978 and became a big fat tub of goo, despite finishing with a career batting average of .397. Martinez went to the Cardinals in 1978 and won 15 games in 1979.

Mark'sBrokenFoot
04-26-2006, 07:04 AM
I knew Todd Ritchie was a BAD trade. Schueler thought that since the Cubs were able to RIPOFF the Pirates for a Starter (Jon Lieber) he figured he could give the farm away and get Todd Ritchie away from them. That probably was the most famous of the "bad trades".

Steve Sax maybe was the other. He came here with so much potential and just didnt cut it.

Kenny made the Ritchie trade, not Schu. He's come a long way since then, hasn't he?

ja1022
04-26-2006, 09:30 AM
Ahhh, the memories. For me, Everett and Alomar, Part I. I remember it was a warm summer night when I heard the Sox added both those guys, and I was absolutely 100% convinced that the Twins were done. I thought there was no way in hell the Sox couldn't win the division. Everett made some contributions, but Alomar was ****. He was supposed to bring some intangibles and teach the team how to win and blah blah blah.

markopat
04-26-2006, 09:43 AM
:threadrules:

Lip Man 1
04-26-2006, 09:44 AM
Kittle:

Bannister was supposed to be the 'ace' eh?

On the same staffs that had Cy Young Winners in Hoyt and Seaver?

Whatever you say.

Considering how lousy the Sox team was in 86 and 87 I find it incredible that he could win at least ten games those years but that's me.

Lip

palehozenychicty
04-26-2006, 09:48 AM
Albert Belle/Jaime Navarro. I was skeptical, but these deals reflected the fact that good pitching>good hitting. Albert did nothing when it counted, and neither did Jaime. :(:

Chez
04-26-2006, 10:05 AM
Jaime Navarro -- turned out to be possibly the worst free-agent signing by any team ever. Ron Santo was also a huge bust for the Sox.

SouthSideLove
04-26-2006, 10:32 AM
Has anyone mentioned the worst RP acquisition ever in Sox history...aka William Koch? Koch had to be one of the shakiest relief pitchers I have ever seen. You knew whenever Jerry Manuel called Koch from the pen there was a good chance that the game was either going into extra innings or lost. Two thumbs way down for Koch.

Uncle_Patrick
04-26-2006, 11:01 AM
Kenny made the Ritchie trade, not Schu. He's come a long way since then, hasn't he?

I think Hangar is crediting the trade to Schueler because KW told Mach, Jerko, and Harry that the trade was an idea that Schueler put in place prior to vacating the GM position. And did people think that Todd Ritchie would be good? Didn't he have like one good season in his career? I immediately found it odd that the Sox would offer up 3 pitchers for him.

I'm surprised to see people mention Bartolo Colon. Bartolo performed well for the Sox. The overall performance of the team was disappointing, not Colon's performance.

My votes for most disappointing acquisitions (at least in recent years):

Billy Koch - I honestly though that the Koch/Foulke trade would balance out for both teams. Unfortunately, Koch proceed to talk up a big game and then completely tanked. I give him credit for putting the blame upon himself, but man, he sucked.

David Wells - I thought he'd be good. He had his moments, but ultimately he disappointed us.

SBSoxFan
04-26-2006, 11:52 AM
Kittle:

Bannister was supposed to be the 'ace' eh?

On the same staffs that had Cy Young Winners in Hoyt and Seaver?

Lip

Not to mention Dotson who had won 22 games the year before, and led the league in winning %.

Dadawg_77
04-26-2006, 12:04 PM
I knew Todd Ritchie was a BAD trade. Schueler thought that since the Cubs were able to RIPOFF the Pirates for a Starter (Jon Lieber) he figured he could give the farm away and get Todd Ritchie away from them. That probably was the most famous of the "bad trades".

Steve Sax maybe was the other. He came here with so much potential and just didnt cut it.

Kenny pulled the trigger on Ritchie trade.

Joey Belle

Mike Caruso

Tim Belcher

1917
04-26-2006, 12:37 PM
Koch
Navarro
Corey Snyder
Steve Sax
Round 2 of Robbie Alomar...still don't know why he did that....

I can't really say Albert....I mean he wasn't what he could have been, but he wasn't a bust #'s wise, our pitching stunk in 97-98 thanks to Navarro.....the only good thing about Koch is that we alos got Cotts in the deal, other then that, he was just used goods by the time we got him. I understood why we got Carl the 2nd time, we needed power with Maggs and Frank out....but Robbie? for a 2nd time? C'MON

Tragg
04-26-2006, 12:53 PM
I think they signed Zisk as a free agent. He really fadede during that horrible second half of August & September when KC won a gazillion games. Big liability in the field as well. Not sure who they got for Terry Forster (to LA right?) Also was Gossage traded or did Evil Mad King George sign him?
We traded Forrester and Gossage to Pitt. I thought it was for Zisk; could be wrong but I don't think that Zisk was a FA signing, because he was a FA after only 1 year with the Sox.

Tragg
04-26-2006, 12:56 PM
Kenny pulled the trigger on Ritchie trade.

Joey Belle

Mike Caruso

Tim Belcher
Tim Belcher was a good trade; we gave up an all-hype, no production prospect (Ruffin I think) and Belcher was one of our more effective pitchers in the ALCS.

Muopsies
04-26-2006, 01:33 PM
Has anyone mentioned the worst RP acquisition ever in Sox history...aka William Koch? Koch had to be one of the shakiest relief pitchers I have ever seen. You knew whenever Jerry Manuel called Koch from the pen there was a good chance that the game was either going into extra innings or lost. Two thumbs way down for Koch.

I hear ya, I remember one game against the O's in '04, sox were up 2, he allowed 1 run to score, tying run was on third and it was just brutal. he got the save but that was in name only. he was a gas can. fireman? more like fire starter.

gobears1987
04-26-2006, 01:44 PM
Anyone else find it a lot less painful to think of painful Sox memories, since, oh, about October/November of last year? :cool:Yeah, I don't even care about White Flag anymore. I look back at something that used to anger me and now laugh because we are WORLD CHAMPS!!!!!

fquaye149
04-26-2006, 01:47 PM
I knew Todd Ritchie was a BAD trade. Schueler thought that since the Cubs were able to RIPOFF the Pirates for a Starter (Jon Lieber) he figured he could give the farm away and get Todd Ritchie away from them. That probably was the most famous of the "bad trades".

Steve Sax maybe was the other. He came here with so much potential and just didnt cut it.

Christ Hangar - I don't know why you hate Murphy so much - you both have the unique habit of working the Cubs into every non-Cubs related baseball conversation ever.

gobears1987
04-26-2006, 01:54 PM
a nod towards Kochnot a bad deal. We got Neal Cotts. Koch fell apart, but so did Foulke so the Sox definitely came out on top.

Iwritecode
04-26-2006, 02:04 PM
Has anyone mentioned the worst RP acquisition ever in Sox history...aka William Koch?

A few people...

I was actually really excited about Billy Koch coming...I even went out and bought his jersey. The thought of a dominating falme throwing closer really excited me, the only good thing that came out of that deal was us getting Neal Cotts.

a nod towards Koch

Bartolo Colon

AND

Billy Koch

Were two guys that I thought would put us over the top. Oops.

Billy Koch, pretty darn awful if you ask me.

1917
04-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Ahhh, the memories. For me, Everett and Alomar, Part I. I remember it was a warm summer night when I heard the Sox added both those guys, and I was absolutely 100% convinced that the Twins were done. I thought there was no way in hell the Sox couldn't win the division. Everett made some contributions, but Alomar was ****. He was supposed to bring some intangibles and teach the team how to win and blah blah blah.

July 1st 2003 if I'm not mistaken....we got both these guys, we just swept the Twins to come within 3 games of 1st, I was pumped...then we lost 2 out of 3 to Tampa.....thanks to Billy Krotch.....

Dadawg_77
04-26-2006, 03:54 PM
Tim Belcher was a good trade; we gave up an all-hype, no production prospect (Ruffin I think) and Belcher was one of our more effective pitchers in the ALCS.

But he didn't put us over the top. Which is what I expected.

Britt Burns
04-26-2006, 04:14 PM
Navarro! Not just a spectacularly crappy pitcher, but a whining primma donna as well. Imagine the gall to bitch about being pulled from the rotation when you lose twice as often as you win (with a decent hitting club behind you) and carry an ERA north of Satan's address...6.66...

BeviBall!
04-26-2006, 04:17 PM
I can't count Sax... god, how old was he when he came here? 32? He retired a year after he left.

miker
04-26-2006, 05:30 PM
uh, greatest bust in team history, Navarro. And we passed up on Clemens for this bum!?!?!?
I'll second that! Although Jose Pantiaqua comes in a close second.

If you suck and admit it, that's one thing. But if you suck and tell the fans to go ______ themselves, that's wrong and you deserve all the hatred you are inspiring.

Lip Man 1
04-26-2006, 05:44 PM
It was Zisk for Forster and Gossage folks. Both Sox relief pitchers were going to be free agents and so was Zisk.

Lip