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View Full Version : CLee cost Milwaukee a run


ondafarm
04-24-2006, 09:35 PM
I'm watching the Braves play the Brewers and they have the dome open. In the third inning Marcus Giles smacks a fly ball deep to center. The center fielder misjudges it, the ball strikes the top of the fence and careens back in rolling towards left center maybe 60-70 feet from the fence. At this moment it is the left fielder's ball, but where is Carlos Lee? Spinning his glove. The center fielder ran the ball down and threw it in, but Giles had already reached third. Well, a ground ball to the pitcher kept him there but then a grounder to short scored him. The next batter struck out.

If Carlos Lee is in position Giles is at second and never scores. Will Carlos do enough offensively today to balance this out? I don't think the Brewers can often afford to start one run down.

Ol' No. 2
04-24-2006, 09:40 PM
I'm watching the Braves play the Brewers and they have the dome open. In the third inning Marcus Giles smacks a fly ball deep to center. The center fielder misjudges it, the ball strikes the top of the fence and careens back in rolling towards left center maybe 60-70 feet from the fence. At this moment it is the left fielder's ball, but where is Carlos Lee? Spinning his glove. The center fielder ran the ball down and threw it in, but Giles had already reached third. Well, a ground ball to the pitcher kept him there but then a grounder to short scored him. The next batter struck out.

If Carlos Lee is in position Giles is at second and never scores. Will Carlos do enough offensively today to balance this out? I don't think the Brewers can often afford to start one run down.But he wasn't charged with an error.

Trav
04-24-2006, 09:42 PM
He has his lapses but he makes up for them. Not always on O either. Did you see him save the game against the Cards when he went over the wall to bring back a homer? Then he hit the game winning bomb the next inning. It was nice.

Palehose13
04-24-2006, 09:57 PM
I like CLee, but the last Brewer game that I was at I was in between 3rd base and left field and I got to keep an eye on him. I've never seen a player watch the scoreboard so much, especially when it was his own highlights. He's a decent player and a pretty darn good hitter, but seems very lackadaisical out in the field. I'm glad we have Pods. :smile:

champagne030
04-24-2006, 10:57 PM
I'm watching the Braves play the Brewers and they have the dome open. In the third inning Marcus Giles smacks a fly ball deep to center. The center fielder misjudges it, the ball strikes the top of the fence and careens back in rolling towards left center maybe 60-70 feet from the fence. At this moment it is the left fielder's ball, but where is Carlos Lee? Spinning his glove. The center fielder ran the ball down and threw it in, but Giles had already reached third. Well, a ground ball to the pitcher kept him there but then a grounder to short scored him. The next batter struck out.

If Carlos Lee is in position Giles is at second and never scores. Will Carlos do enough offensively today to balance this out? I don't think the Brewers can often afford to start one run down.

Were you all over Mack's ass when he didn't back up Anderson? Lee isn't going to win any Gold Gloves, but he's serviceable in LF and the defensive rep he gets around here sounds like unknowledgeable Flub fan talk......

Edit: not calling you a Flubs fan, but I'm tired of hearing that he's such a defensive liability. Pods is great for our lineup, but Pierre is the only ML outfielder that has a weaker arm.....it's a give and take.

ondafarm
04-24-2006, 11:14 PM
Were you all over Mack's ass when he didn't back up Anderson? Lee isn't going to win any Gold Gloves, but he's serviceable in LF and the defensive rep he gets around here sounds like unknowledgeable Flub fan talk......

Edit: not calling you a Flubs fan, but I'm tired of hearing that he's such a defensive liability. Pods is great for our lineup, but Pierre is the only ML outfielder that has a weaker arm.....it's a give and take.

Look, I've worked the numbers. CLee is a low-average left fielder as far as % of put outs. Pods is a high-average. Manny Ramirez is a disaster, he's off the scale low.

When did Mack not back up Anderson? I've never seen it.

Lee plays so deep, so that nothing gets over his head. He better make some plays over the wall because he gives up plenty of singles in front of him.

As for who's the unknowledgable Flub fan, welcome to Carl Everett's 98%.

champagne030
04-24-2006, 11:28 PM
When did Mack not back up Anderson? I've never seen it.

Game 2 against Cleveland. Mack had his thumb up his butt while BA dove for a ball in right center.

I've had season tickets in LF for over 10 years. Lee didn't play more than 5 feet deeper than Pods (and probably less than that). I don't want to make this into a Pods/Lee debate/conversation. I'm glad the trade went down, but we didn't gain much, if anything, with our LF defense. People run wild on Pods (see game 2 of the World Series) and he doesn't get good jumps either.

ondafarm
04-25-2006, 12:22 AM
Anderson didn't play in the second game against Cleveland. Here's the box score.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20060404&content_id=1383514&vkey=wrapup2005&fext=.jsp&team=home

You must totally sleep thru games because Pods plays deep on pull hitters but much shallower on opposite field situations. If you aren't aware of that who has who's thumb up who's butt?

ComiskeyBrewer
04-25-2006, 04:24 AM
If Carlos Lee is in position Giles is at second and never scores.

You can't know that for sure because it is a different situation(everything changes, from the way you pitch the batter to the batter's own approach). A runner at 3rd with no outs makes the pitcher throw different pitches than if he is at 2nd with no outs. If he is at 2nd, you can afford to pitch the batter outside, because if he hits an opposite field grounder, a run doesn't score. However, with a man on 3rd, that run does score. Let's say for argument's sake, Giles stops at 2nd, the next batter hits a line drive to the RF corner(because the pitcher can now pitch on the outside 1/2 of the plate) and the run scores anyways. Of course none of this matters because Prince Fielder was 3 for 3(including a Stolen Base) and the Brewers won the game anyways.

WhiteSoxFan84
04-25-2006, 04:50 AM
Rank the following LFs defensively, in order from best to worst...

Adam Dunn
Carlos Lee
Manny Ramirez

ComiskeyBrewer
04-25-2006, 05:27 AM
Rank the following LFs defensively, in order from best to worst...

Adam Dunn
Carlos Lee
Manny Ramirez

Career Fielding Pct in LF for each is:

Dunn .968
Ramirez .976
Lee .984

So by those stats, i would have to say:
1. Lee
2. Ramirez
3. Dunn

ondafarm
04-25-2006, 09:53 AM
Career Fielding Pct in LF for each is:

Dunn .968
Ramirez .976
Lee .984

So by those stats, i would have to say:
1. Lee
2. Ramirez
3. Dunn

Just looking at Fielding Pct is deceptive. Zeke 'Banana Nose' Bonura had a very high fielding pct, but he was famous for giving the "Bonura salute" to balls heading past him. A better player might have dove for the ball and chanced an error.

scottjanssens
04-25-2006, 11:36 AM
Career Fielding Pct in LF for each is:

Dunn .968
Ramirez .976
Lee .984

So by those stats, i would have to say:
1. Lee
2. Ramirez
3. Dunn
Fielding % is a completely worthless stats as there are no errors if a player doesn't touch a ball. I could stand in LF and never make a single put out and as long as I never actually touched the ball as it was coming down, I'd have a fielding % of 1.000.

Using a metric that takes into account things like the number of put outs and assists is more telling (although still doesn't give a complete picture). Rankings by RATE2 (where 100 is average, 110 is frickin' awesome, and 90 is "You'd better be putting up some great offensive numbers") gives us the same order as fielding %, but tells is that while Lee and Ramirez are below average, Dunn is really really stinky in the field. (Not that we needed numbers to know any of this.)

Lee 99
Ramirez 97
Dunn 93


Just for comparison:

Podsednik 106

DaleJRFan
04-25-2006, 11:47 AM
He has his lapses but he makes up for them. Not always on O either. Did you see him save the game against the Cards when he went over the wall to bring back a homer? Then he hit the game winning bomb the next inning. It was nice.

If Carlos Lee didn't have to spend his at-bats "making up for it" he would be a great player instead of just a good player.

scottjanssens
04-25-2006, 11:49 AM
If Carlos Lee didn't have to spend his at-bats "making up for it" he would be a great player instead of just a good player.

Wish I'd said that.

PaulDrake
04-25-2006, 11:59 AM
Fielding % is a completely worthless stats as there are no errors if a player doesn't touch a ball. I could stand in LF and never make a single put out and as long as I never actually touched the ball as it was coming down, I'd have a fielding % of 1.000.

Using a metric that takes into account things like the number of put outs and assists is more telling (although still doesn't give a complete picture). Rankings by RATE2 (where 100 is average, 110 is frickin' awesome, and 90 is "You'd better be putting up some great offensive numbers") gives us the same order as fielding %, but tells is that while Lee and Ramirez are below average, Dunn is really really stinky in the field. (Not that we needed numbers to know any of this.)

Lee 99
Ramirez 97
Dunn 93


Just for comparison:

Podsednik 106 There are so many ways to statistically rate fielders it makes my head spin. Using this system Lee is slightly below average. From some of the posts here you'd think he was the worst fielding outfielder ever. By the way are those ratings you provided lifetime or for one year only?

ondafarm
04-25-2006, 12:07 PM
Fielding % is a completely worthless stats as there are no errors if a player doesn't touch a ball. I could stand in LF and never make a single put out and as long as I never actually touched the ball as it was coming down, I'd have a fielding % of 1.000.

Using a metric that takes into account things like the number of put outs and assists is more telling (although still doesn't give a complete picture). Rankings by RATE2 (where 100 is average, 110 is frickin' awesome, and 90 is "You'd better be putting up some great offensive numbers") gives us the same order as fielding %, but tells is that while Lee and Ramirez are below average, Dunn is really really stinky in the field. (Not that we needed numbers to know any of this.)

Lee 99
Ramirez 97
Dunn 93


Just for comparison:

Podsednik 106


As I said, Lee is a low-average left fielder. I'm not saying he's the worst, just below average. I also think the RATE2 number is imperfect as it doesn't adjust for a play like last night's. Keeping the guy from a triple is a simple matter of backing up appropriately. I always tell Little Leaguers, "On every play, every player has an assignment; know it and do it." It does rub me the wrong way when I see a major leaguer blowing something that I'd sit a Little Leaguer down for and clarify his/her assignment.

Obviously, you can't perfectly say what would have happened if the guy had been held at second. But lead-off men who double score about 60% of the time. Lead-off men who triple score more than 95% of the time. That's a huge difference in my book.

scottjanssens
04-25-2006, 12:07 PM
There are so many ways to statistically rate fielders it makes my head spin. Using this system Lee is slightly below average. From some of the posts here you'd think he was the worst fielding outfielder ever. By the way are those ratings you provided lifetime or for one year only?

The numbers I posted were lifetime RATE2 in LF.

scottjanssens
04-25-2006, 12:09 PM
I also think the RATE2 number is imperfect as it doesn't adjust for a play like last night's.

All stats are imperfect. That's what makes them fun.

ondafarm
04-25-2006, 01:48 PM
Just so we all have a clear understanding of the criteria I espouse. Percentage of Outs Created While in the Field. [No, I'm not calling it POCWF.]

Take the innings played in a defensive position and multiply that by three, that is the number of outs recorded while the player is on the field. Then total put outs and assists. Divide the second number by the first.

Example. CLee in 04 played 1277 2/3 innings of defense for the Sox. That's 3833 possible outs. He recorded 282 put outs and 11 assists. That's 293 outs he created. Thus, his POCWF is (293/3833) * 100 = 7.64%

CLee 04 7.64%
Pods 05 8.27%
Dunn 05 7.70%
Crisp 05 8.28%
Matsui 05 7.75%
Ramirez 05 7.07%

What does this prove? Well, nothing is proven.
What does it imply? That Pods and Crisp are significantly better left fielders defensively than average. That CLee is on the low side of the average group and that Ramirez is a disaster in the field.

I was surprised at Dunn's numbers. This shows him recording more outs than CLee and nearly as many as Matsui.

This doesn't say that every aspect of Pods game is superior to CLee's. Carlos has the superior throwing arm, but he plays so deep and stays put. Had he been in left for us during the World Series the Astros would have taken as many bases as on Pods. Pods playing shallow got to more balls and faster on dribblers than CLee could have gotten there.

Three other things about this stat.

1) It doesn't really work well for first basemen or catchers. First basemen get lots of put outs they have nothing to do with. Catchers really need to take charge of all balls in front of them calling who makes the play. Some catchers charge out and grab balls from other players. That would inflate their numbers.

2) Comparison across leagues is slightly suspect. Pitchers strike out a lot more than DHs do. They also hit a few more routine fly balls, mostly to the left fielder.

3) Manny Ramirez gets a huge boost from outfield assists. Once you learn the carooms of the green monster, you get that.