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View Full Version : Luis Vizcaino v.s. Boone Logan


QCIASOXFAN
04-23-2006, 01:54 AM
I know it is still early in the year, but does anybody else get worried when Boone comes into the ballgame? I had this thing about Vizcaino coming into the games last year where I just knew he was not going to get the job done, and usually he didn't or was very inconsistent. I kinda get that same feeling watching his first few outings and especially tonight walking back to back batters.

Norberto7
04-23-2006, 02:10 AM
He filled Marte's old role quite nicely tonight, I thought.

TheOldRoman
04-23-2006, 02:12 AM
:threadsucks

I don't know which games you watched last year, but Vizcaino was actually a very good pitcher. His era was inflated because of one horrible outing in the first half, but he was lights out in the second half. He pitched 70 innings for us and had a 3.73 ERA. I guess that is your definition of "not getting the job done". I don't know where all these people on here got the idea that Viz was horrible.

As for Logan, he has appeared in 5 games, and has only pitched 3.2. innings over these three weeks. Some would consider him rusty. Give him at least a month and at least 5 more appearences before you start another BS chicken little thread like this because he walked a couple of guys.
:chickenlittle

Chisox003
04-23-2006, 02:37 AM
I don't know which games you watched last year, but Vizcaino was actually a very good pitcher. His era was inflated because of one horrible outing in the first half, but he was lights out in the second half. He pitched 70 innings for us and had a 3.73 ERA. I guess that is your definition of "not getting the job done". I don't know where all these people on here got the idea that Viz was horrible.
I love it when you analyze.

Viz was absolutely under appreciated last year.

I'd take him back in a heartbeat.

lostletters
04-23-2006, 02:44 AM
McCarthy is filling the middle reliever role Viz left behind. He was under-appreciated last year. But we had to give him up to get JV, so the way I view it, it was worth it.

Viz will be missed. I would take him back as well if given the opportunity.

TheOldRoman
04-23-2006, 02:49 AM
I love it when you analyze.

Viz was absolutely under appreciated last year.

I'd take him back in a heartbeat.
Yep. I am thrilled that we got Vazquez. However, my first response when I found out the trade was "why would they trade Viz?" He wasn't Cy Young, but he was a very reliable arm in the pen that could give you lots of innings.

I will gladly take Javier, though.

QCIASOXFAN
04-23-2006, 02:50 AM
70.0 IP giving up 74 hits and 3o runs, the only reason he had that many innings was because he was was on mop up duty all the time after Ozzie figured out he sucked. You ever wonder why Jenks became the closer? We needed Politte and Cotts for middle relief and Vicaino could never be trusted to close a game because he sucked.

Chisox003
04-23-2006, 02:52 AM
McCarthy is filling the middle reliever role Viz left behind. He was under-appreciated last year. But we had to give him up to get JV, so the way I view it, it was worth it.

Viz will be missed. I would take him back as well if given the opportunity. Oh ya, there's no doubt about doing that trade for Vaz.

I'm just saying that the amount of solid innings Viz threw last year, often in tough situations, often in Mccarthy's role now, often in extra innings...He was the utility guy of the bullpen last year and did a helluva job.

You wouldn't know that from some of the posters round here though....

Edit: Ha ha, yes QC, he sucked. Mmmhmm, ok, move along now...

TheOldRoman
04-23-2006, 03:01 AM
70.0 IP giving up 74 hits and 3o runs, the only reason he had that many innings was because he was was on mop up duty all the time after Ozzie figured out he sucked. You ever wonder why Jenks became the closer? We needed Politte and Cotts for middle relief and Vicaino could never be trusted to close a game because he sucked. OK, he gave up 30 runs (29 earned) in 70 innings. He took one for the team in the third game of the season and and ended up giving up 6 runs after being extended to 2.1 innings because there was nobody left in the pen. If you take out those 6 runs, his era would be 2.95.

How the heck would mop up duty get him all those innings? Incase you didn't notice, we played a lot of close games last year. There wasn't a lot of mopping up to do. Jenks became the closer because he had by far the best stuff of anyone in the pen. Polittle and Cotts had become lights out in their spots, so Bobby just replaced Hermanson. It would be ridiculous to make a closer out of Politte - history of being a good reliever, bad closer, or Cotts because you would take away the only reliable lefty we had in our pen. Look, even if you want to say Viz wasn't as good as Cotts or Politte (and he wasn't), it is ridiculous to claim that he was garbage just because he was behind them. A 3.73 or 2.95 ERA is great for any reliever, let alone the last guy out of the pen.

The Dude
04-23-2006, 10:21 AM
Viz had a rough patch in the beginning and only seemed to come into games to play the mop up role. I think he was solid after the allstar break and I think that our pen misses him a lot. Logan doesnt seem ready to pitch at this level and I hope he gets more time in the minors before we see him again. Hopefully we can get Hermy back soon.

BeviBall!
04-23-2006, 10:49 AM
I love it when people talk up Viz like he was the best reliever we had in the second half. Name me one game where he was put in a crucial situation. Just one. He was mainly used in blow outs or in xtra inning games where Ozzie had used up everyone else.

Was he a bad reliever? No, especially being the last guy out of the pen. Was he the easiest to replace? Yes. And the fact we got Vazquez for him should make this argument moot.

California Sox
04-23-2006, 11:08 AM
Vizcaino seems to be yet another product of the "they're only good while they're in Milwaukee" 'pen that Mike Maddux has built for the Brewers. I love Coop and you can't argue with the job Leo Mazzone has done but Maddux is as good as anyone.

I do believe eventually we're going to want another right-handed arm out there. Whether it means releasing Gload or sending Logan down, I'd love more depth. Unfortunately there is not an obvious candidate for promotion in the organization. Haeger is an interesting thought, but more as a long man. Tracey continues to struggle with command.

Colorado is set to release Zach Day, I wonder if we'd have any interest. He's got an intriguing arm and he was always better in relief than as a starter.

chaerulez
04-23-2006, 11:32 AM
I don't know which games you watched last year, but Vizcaino was actually a very good pitcher. His era was inflated because of one horrible outing in the first half, but he was lights out in the second half. He pitched 70 innings for us and had a 3.73 ERA. I guess that is your definition of "not getting the job done". I don't know where all these people on here got the idea that Viz was horrible.

As for Logan, he has appeared in 5 games, and has only pitched 3.2. innings over these three weeks. Some would consider him rusty. Give him at least a month and at least 5 more appearences before you start another BS chicken little thread like this because he walked a couple of guys.


Yes it was that one extra inning game in Cleveland where he gave up 6 runs in an inning and Ozzie couldn't take him out because he had no one left to use. This is exactly the same kind of stuff that happened to Marte... 3.77 ERA but somehow that turned out to be so horrible. I'd rather take Marte and Viz over Logan and Thorton.

Hitmen77
04-23-2006, 11:43 AM
I think Logan's problem yesterday was being rusty because he's sat for so long. It's a concern I have about Thornton too.

With a 7 run cushion under our belts, I actually wouldn't have minded seeing Thornton come in to work the 9th yesterday to help him stay sharp.

Ol' No. 2
04-23-2006, 11:45 AM
This was exactly the kind of situation someone like Logan should be pitching. I don't care what kind of stuff you have, it's a HUGE jump from A-ball to the bigs. Let him get his feet wet against middling pitchers in non-critical situations, NOT pitching to Travis Hafner with the game on the line.

Hitmen77
04-23-2006, 11:48 AM
Vizcaino seems to be yet another product of the "they're only good while they're in Milwaukee" 'pen that Mike Maddux has built for the Brewers. I love Coop and you can't argue with the job Leo Mazzone has done but Maddux is as good as anyone.

Here are Viz's ERA numbers for the last 3 seasons:

04 Mil 3.75
05 Sox 3.73
06 Arz 1.80

So, what is the basis for your "they're only good when they're in Milwaukee" claim? :?:

California Sox
04-23-2006, 12:52 PM
I was wrong. Turns out Vizcaino is inconsistent wherever he goes. I was remembering him circa 2002 when he actually was an effective reliever for Milwaukee. 2.99 ERA 19 holds only one blown save. Then he was BRUTAL in 2003. Then in 2004 and 2005 he was mediocre, although I would argue he pitched much better for Milwaukee in 2004 than he did for us in 2005. Although he had a similar ERA he allowed 13 more hits, 5 more walks and had 20 fewer strikeouts in 2 fewer innings. He benefitted from the same thing that kept Marte's ERA relatively low: Cotts and Politte stranded a ton of his base runners. I believe for relievers WHIP and SO/9 are truer indications of performance than ERA. Vizcaino was far worse in those categories with the Sox than he was the previous year.

Lip Man 1
04-23-2006, 01:01 PM
Logan simply does not have the experience yet to be on a big league roster. Perhaps in time.

At this moment in time if it were possible, I'd take Viz. And who knows....it happened twice with Everett....Kenny may get him back in June or July when I'd expect that he'd pick up one or two veteran guys to round out the pen for the stretch drive.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
04-23-2006, 01:02 PM
I was wrong. Turns out Vizcaino is inconsistent wherever he goes. I was remembering him circa 2002 when he actually was an effective reliever for Milwaukee. 2.99 ERA 19 holds only one blown save. Then he was BRUTAL in 2003. Then in 2004 and 2005 he was mediocre, although I would argue he pitched much better for Milwaukee in 2004 than he did for us in 2005. Although he had a similar ERA he allowed 13 more hits, 5 more walks and had 20 fewer strikeouts in 2 fewer innings. He benefitted from the same thing that kept Marte's ERA relatively low: Cotts and Politte stranded a ton of his base runners. I believe for relievers WHIP and SO/9 are truer indications of performance than ERA. Vizcaino was far worse in those categories with the Sox than he was the previous year.ERA for relievers can be pretty misleading. And the oft-repeated assertion that his numbers were inflated by that one early relief appearance is nonsense. He pitched 70 innings last year.

Viz' numbers for last year were mediocre, at best. Plus, he was like watching paint dry. You had time to run to the can, stop for a hot dog and a beer and still get back to your seat between pitches.

Lou Brown
04-23-2006, 01:13 PM
I don't think Logan vs Vizcaino is really fair. Logan doesn't have Vizcaino's old job, McCarthy does. I can feel calm or nervewracked when Logan comes in. It depends on where Ozzie uses him. I didn't like him coming in against Hafner with the game on the line very much at all. That was begging for a loss.

Yesterday was fine, though. Logan's pretty valuable when we have a 7 run lead (most relievers are:rolleyes: ). If he almost punts the lead away, he can always be yanked for someone better (as he was).

Optipessimism
04-23-2006, 06:08 PM
I don't know which games you watched last year, but Vizcaino was actually a very good pitcher. His era was inflated because of one horrible outing in the first half, but he was lights out in the second half. He pitched 70 innings for us and had a 3.73 ERA. I guess that is your definition of "not getting the job done". I don't know where all these people on here got the idea that Viz was horrible.

As for Logan, he has appeared in 5 games, and has only pitched 3.2. innings over these three weeks. Some would consider him rusty. Give him at least a month and at least 5 more appearences before you start another BS chicken little thread like this because he walked a couple of guys.


Totally agree. Vizcaino is the only player that I think this team is actually going to miss. As every pitcher, he had a couple bad outings and also like many pitchers he got off to a slow start. Overall, he was solid throughout the season and solid when we needed him in the playoffs.

But, since AZ is probably going nowhere again, I wonder what it would take to get him back?

TheOldRoman
04-23-2006, 08:28 PM
ERA for relievers can be pretty misleading. And the oft-repeated assertion that his numbers were inflated by that one early relief appearance is nonsense. He pitched 70 innings last year.
Yes, and as I said, take away those 6 runs and his ERA would be 2.95. That is a big difference. 3.73 is not a bad ERA, but 2.95 is excellent.

Ol' No. 2
04-23-2006, 11:56 PM
Yes, and as I said, take away those 6 runs and his ERA would be 2.95. That is a big difference. 3.73 is not a bad ERA, but 2.95 is excellent.He allowed 6 runs in 2.1 innings. Excluding that game, he allowed 23 runs in 67.2 IP, for a 3.06 ERA. Excellent? For a reliever? That makes him the highest ERA for any reliever except Marte. But ERA is pretty pointless for a reliever because other pitchers stranded his runners for him. His 1.47 WHIP is also worse than any regular reliever except Marte. His BAA and opponent's SLG are the worst of any regular reliever on the team (including Marte).

Boy, I sure do hope we get him back.

santo=dorf
04-24-2006, 12:07 AM
ERA for relievers can be pretty misleading. And the oft-repeated assertion that his numbers were inflated by that one early relief appearance is nonsense. He pitched 70 innings last year.

Viz' numbers for last year were mediocre, at best. Plus, he was like watching paint dry. You had time to run to the can, stop for a hot dog and a beer and still get back to your seat between pitches.
Complete bull****.

Ozzie mismanaged that game and Viz was the sacrificial lamb. As is was previously pointed out before, those 6 runs that came after he pitched 1.1 innings like a typical reliever made his ERA 3.73 instead of 2.95. Very noticeable difference in my opinion.

Viz had something like a 2.52 ERA in the second half last year but was completely lost in the shuffle because the Sox starters were going deep, Jenks was striking everyone out, Cotts, Politte, and Hermanson were all pitching out of their minds making Marte's and Viz's numbers look worse.

Viz was thrown under the bus for good by too many Sox fans after he gave up a 3 run homer in FOABB's debut at the urinal, another game in which Ozzie mishandled the pen.

BV2005
04-24-2006, 03:03 AM
Lets give boone more than a few appearences before everyone starts ripping on him

Bobbo35
04-24-2006, 08:11 AM
Viz I thought was great for the Sox. He could give you innings and for the most part was extremely reliable. I am not going to knock Boone because he is on the Sox now. We just to give him the chance.

scottjanssens
04-24-2006, 10:44 AM
I'd rather take Marte and Viz over Logan and Thorton.

You can have them, just not on our Sox.

I watched game 3 of the ALDS again yesterday. I saw Marte come in with no outs and the bases empty. I saw him leave with no outs and the bases drunk. It would take a supercomputer to calculate Marte's ERA if the other members of the bullpen didn't constantly bail his ass out and strand runner that were his responsibility.

Viz was better than a lot of people who complain about his performance last season. But he certainly doesn't deserve the love fest he's getting in this thread.

soxinem1
04-24-2006, 12:47 PM
I love it when people talk up Viz like he was the best reliever we had in the second half. Name me one game where he was put in a crucial situation. Just one. He was mainly used in blow outs or in xtra inning games where Ozzie had used up everyone else.

Was he a bad reliever? No, especially being the last guy out of the pen. Was he the easiest to replace? Yes. And the fact we got Vazquez for him should make this argument moot.

Viz was no Cy Young winner, but he was more dependable that Politte or Hermanson for most of the second half. He didn't stike out a lot of guys like he did in Milwaukee but he did the job, in many key situations down the stretch too. He wasn't used to save games but he bridged the gap nicely, especially when Hermanson was not available.

I never really considered him the 'last guy in the pen'.

The 2005 BP was more like a play, everyone had a role, and everyone did it well.

RockyMtnSoxFan
04-24-2006, 03:20 PM
I love it when people talk up Viz like he was the best reliever we had in the second half. Name me one game where he was put in a crucial situation. Just one. He was mainly used in blow outs or in xtra inning games where Ozzie had used up everyone else.

There was a game in Detroit (I think it was around the 4th of July) where Viz came in and shut down the Kittens in extra innings. I don't recall whether he got the win, but that was when I began to change my opinion of him. He seemed to be much more effective in the second half. His 3.73 ERA was decent, but of more importance was the inherrited runners/scored ratio of 52/14 (I hadn't realized he'd been that good until I looked up the numbers).

I think Boone can be every bit as effective as the early version of Marte. He showed a lot of poise in ST, and while that doesn't guarantee anything, it means a lot for a guy facing big league hitting for the first time. I think he just needs more time to settle into a role, to get used to pitching in front of many thousands of people to talented major league hitters. Even if he heads back to the minors at some point I don't think we've seen the last of him.

Dadawg_77
04-24-2006, 05:11 PM
This was exactly the kind of situation someone like Logan should be pitching. I don't care what kind of stuff you have, it's a HUGE jump from A-ball to the bigs. Let him get his feet wet against middling pitchers in non-critical situations, NOT pitching to Travis Hafner with the game on the line.

Its even bigger when you weren't that good in single A ball in the first place. Logan had a hot spring and looked like the best option the Sox had. I wouldn't be suprise to see Kenny pull a trade for a middle relief and Logan back at AA ball before July. But it is nice when Logan and hair styles are your biggest problems.

Ol' No. 2
04-24-2006, 05:19 PM
Its even bigger when you weren't that good in single A ball in the first place. Logan had a hot spring and looked like the best option the Sox had. I wouldn't be suprise to see Kenny pull a trade for a middle relief and Logan back at AA ball before July. But it is nice when Logan and hair styles are your biggest problems.I don't think the Sox brass are so simple-minded as to add Logan to the roster based on a handful of good innings in spring training. They saw something they liked. And given their track record, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. The kid's pitched a grand total of 3.2 innings so far and his only earned run is the HR ball to Hafner. I think it's just a bit premature to put him on the trapdoor just yet.

Dadawg_77
04-24-2006, 05:23 PM
Here are Viz's ERA numbers for the last 3 seasons:

04 Mil 3.75
05 Sox 3.73
06 Arz 1.80

So, what is the basis for your "they're only good when they're in Milwaukee" claim? :?:

The thing with ERA with RP is it doesn't take into account inherited runs allowed to score and leverage, who the RP faced and when. It isn't unreasonable to believe Ozzie or any manager would bring in a lesser RP to face the bottom half of orders. This would conserve the better RPs to stop the big guns and allow the lesser RPs to post lower ERA since they didn't faced the same competition.