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View Full Version : Thoughts on a friendly discussion


Theanticub
04-18-2006, 02:32 PM
I was talking to a friend of mine, who lives in atlanta, and I suggested that Coop is the best pitching coach in baseball...possibly top 5 ever.

Here's his argument. He votes Leo mazzoni (sp?) far out ranks Cooper. No doubt both are great, but the job Cooper does with our pitching staff in the years past and present makes him a top canidate in my mind...what do you think?

MERPER
04-18-2006, 02:36 PM
I'd say that Cooper is certainly on his way... Coop is equal in World Series wins with Mazzone and everyone knows we won last year strictly because of our pitching... the 4 straight complete games are a direct product of Coop...

He has done an amazing job developing guys like Garland, Contreras, Jenks, McCarthy and Cotts... but he needs to stick around and continue to have success with the pitchers for another 10 or so years...

Mazzone had great pitchers and developed others that were critical to the Braves winning exactly 1 million straight division championships...

alohafri
04-18-2006, 02:40 PM
I'd say that Cooper is certainly on his way... Coop is equal in World Series wins with Mazzone and everyone knows we won last year strictly because of our pitching... the 4 straight complete games are a direct product of Coop...

He has done an amazing job developing guys like Garland, Contreras, Jenks, McCarthy and Cotts... but he needs to stick around and continue to have success with the pitchers for another 10 or so years...

Mazzone had great pitchers and developed others that were critical to the Braves winning exactly 1 million straight division championships...

Not to mention that Coop follows possibly the WORST pitching coach in baseball history...:nardi

Chicken Dinner
04-18-2006, 02:41 PM
Coop couldn't do a thing with Koch, Schoensuck, Wright, etc. Of course, a little talent helps.

skobabe8
04-18-2006, 02:51 PM
Leo has been doing it for a better part of a decade so I would have to go with him. That being said, I wouldnt trade him for Coop. A very close second.

Dan Mega
04-18-2006, 02:53 PM
Eh, I dunno. All of our guys had decent stuff coming in, Coop helped them develop and use it.

Leo, on the other hand, turned Mike Hampton and Jared Wright into allstars. That is like making Schoenwhine a .500 pitcher.

batmanZoSo
04-18-2006, 03:04 PM
Leo Mazzone has done a great job for a long, long time. On the other hand, Coop has a kick ass New York accent, so I'll go with him.

Coop is the guy who will get the most out of those talented, yet enigmatic pitchers like Contreras and Vazquez. I think Vazquez, under Coop tutelage, will do great things here despite that he layed a turd on the mound last time out.

oeo
04-18-2006, 03:36 PM
Leo Mazzone has done a great job for a long, long time. On the other hand, Coop has a kick ass New York accent, so I'll go with him.

Coop is the guy who will get the most out of those talented, yet enigmatic pitchers like Contreras and Vazquez. I think Vazquez, under Coop tutelage, will do great things here despite that he layed a turd on the mound last time out.

I still believe that it was a fluke. Nothing but bad luck came in that inning, and he came out the next inning and absolutely dominated.

Lip Man 1
04-18-2006, 03:42 PM
Leo's done it for over a decade so right now he has the edge...a lot though will be determined by what he can or can't do with the Orioles.

That's not to diss Cooper...just that he doesn't have as long of a track record yet.

Lip

batmanZoSo
04-18-2006, 03:46 PM
I still believe that it was a fluke. Nothing but bad luck came in that inning, and he came out the next inning and absolutely dominated.

Yeah, I thought the Blue Jays were stealing signs or Javy was tipping. Every at bat it seemed Vazquez would make a good pitch and someone would just take a short hack and poke it into the outfield. :?:

soxfanatlanta
04-18-2006, 03:55 PM
Leo's done it for over a decade so right now he has the edge...a lot though will be determined by what he can or can't do with the Orioles. Lip
Although Leo has had his fair share of stinkers in his time (Dan Kolb anyone?), I believe it is because he could not sell his "pitch down and away...always" method to everybody. Like Lip mentioned, if the Orioles start pitching lights out, then you have to give him a good chunk of credit. Overall - I have to give Mazzone the nod for now; top 5 ERA for 10+ years speaks volumes to me.

ondafarm
04-18-2006, 04:41 PM
Like all coaches, Coop and Mazzone have certain guys they can work with and certain ones they can't. Both guys seem to have been lucky in having GMs who listened to them when they said, 'acquire him, I can work with him.' Spotting the talent is the easy part, nearly everybody can do that. Baseball has no combine where intelligence, personality, tenacity and heart can all be managed. You can put a radar gun on most guys somewhere, but you can't measure the other facets. Aquiring guys you can work with is as important as having talent. Nobody ever doubted Jon Garland's potential or talent, they doubted his ability to handle the lumps that come with being a ML starting pitcher.

seventyseven
04-18-2006, 04:50 PM
Eh, I dunno. All of our guys had decent stuff coming in, Coop helped them develop and use it.

Leo, on the other hand, turned Mike Hampton and Jared Wright into allstars. That is like making Schoenwhine a .500 pitcher.

Mike Hampton was a 22-game winner with Houston before coming to Atlanta. Jared Wright had a fluke year reminscent of his playoff run with Cleveland in 1997. I don't credit Mazzone with turning either one into an all-star. If anything, both got healthy, threw the ball well for one year, and now are both hurt again.

MeanFish
04-18-2006, 07:22 PM
Coop couldn't do a thing with Koch, Schoensuck, Wright, etc. Of course, a little talent helps.

Schoeneweis pitched well in 2004 before getting hurt and whiny. He was flat dominating for a month and a half. I can't find any reference material as it's hard to find game logs from past years, but somebody else probably remembers this as well.

Edit: He was very, very good for the first two months. Proof below:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=34279&highlight=scho

MeanFish
04-18-2006, 07:37 PM
Mike Hampton was a 22-game winner with Houston before coming to Atlanta. Jared Wright had a fluke year reminscent of his playoff run with Cleveland in 1997. I don't credit Mazzone with turning either one into an all-star. If anything, both got healthy, threw the ball well for one year, and now are both hurt again.

Mazzone's greatest talent has always been his ability to keep his pitchers' arms strong and healthy. Wright and Hampton were both beneficiaries of this.

MUsoxfan
04-18-2006, 07:44 PM
I really think Mike Maddux belongs on this list. That guy is working some magic up in Milwaukee with some of those guys.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-18-2006, 07:46 PM
Leo's done it for over a decade so right now he has the edge...a lot though will be determined by what he can or can't do with the Orioles.

That's not to diss Cooper...just that he doesn't have as long of a track record yet.

Lip

1. Johnny Sain who begot Leo Mazzone (as well as Whitey Ford, Jim Kaat, Denny McLain and Wilbur Wood among others).

2. Leo Mazzone

Don Cooper may finish somewhere in the Top 10 by the time all is said and done. He may be the second best pitching coach in the majors today and I agree with including Mike Maddux in the mix. Orel Hershiser has done a pretty good job working with NOTHING in Texas (and of course that bandbox they play in).

zaidecrannog
04-18-2006, 07:50 PM
With the exception of starter-turned-closer John Smoltz, the Braves bullpen has been consistently bad during Mazzone's tenure. I think he's been incredibly lucky. Cooper can point to Garland and Contreras as pitchers who became much better after he worked with them.

Daver
04-18-2006, 07:55 PM
1. Johnny Sain who begot Leo Mazzone (as well as Whitey Ford, Jim Kaat, Denny McLain and Wilbur Wood among others).

2. Leo Mazzone

Don Cooper may finish somewhere in the Top 10 by all is said and done. He may be the second best pitching coach in the majors today and I agree with including Mike Maddux in the mix. Orel Hershiser has done a pretty good job working with NOTHING in Texas (and of course that bandbox they play in).

Cooper would have a better chance of being considered one of the best had he stayed with the major league club in the 90's, after being put in the role at mid-season, instead he chose to return to the minors where he became director of minor league pitching for the organization. I was a bit surprised when he chose to remain the MLB pitching coach the season following Nardi's departure. He knows how to spot a pitchers flaws, and he can help them make strides to improve them, without making the player feel like he is being asked to do some unnatural. Mark Buherle would not be the pitcher he is today without the help of Coop from low A ball on up.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-18-2006, 08:12 PM
Cooper would have a better chance of being considered one of the best had he stayed with the major league club in the 90's, after being put in the role at mid-season, instead he chose to return to the minors where he became director of minor league pitching for the organization. I was a bit surprised when he chose to remain the MLB pitching coach the season following Nardi's departure. He knows how to spot a pitchers flaws, and he can help them make strides to improve them, without making the player feel like he is being asked to do some unnatural. Mark Buherle would not be the pitcher he is today without the help of Coop from low A ball on up.

I agree. He has been underrated his entire career and if it weren't for the exposure during the 2005 World Series he would still be Chicago's secret at least among most baseball fans (though I am sure many within the baseball community recognize his talent). The limited national exposure he received last year mainly revolved around the fact he is from New York and therefore a possible candidate for the Yankees job.

One good thing to come about of his lack of exposure is the fact we were able to hold onto him for over a decade as you noted (though he will have many opportunities going forward and I know Kenny Williams will do what he can to keep him in a White Sox uniform).

Lip Man 1
04-18-2006, 11:23 PM
Southside:

Johnny Sain...now there's a name from the past. The guy had 20 game winners season after season after season (including a few with the White Sox).

For those who don't know/remember him...he did things contrary to the norm for the times (then and now). For one thing he wasn't a big believer in pitchers getting a lot of running in (sprints and stuff). As he once put it...'You don't run the ball over the damn plate, if you did pitchers would be coming from track programs!) LOL

Lip

JohnBasedowYoda
04-18-2006, 11:25 PM
Not to mention that Coop follows possibly the WORST pitching coach in baseball history...:nardi

I don't even remember his name.

TornLabrum
04-18-2006, 11:27 PM
I don't even remember his name.

I can't resist: Nardi Contreras. SUFFER!!!!!

JohnBasedowYoda
04-18-2006, 11:30 PM
I can't resist: Nardi Contreras. SUFFER!!!!!

Thanks. If I wake up in a cold sweat screaming his name I'll have you to thank kind sir.

Bobbo35
04-19-2006, 08:10 AM
Not to mention that Coop follows possibly the WORST pitching coach in baseball history...:nardi

Ain't that true!

miker
04-19-2006, 11:55 AM
Coop couldn't do a thing with Koch, Schoensuck, Wright, etc. Of course, a little talent helps.
Can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

Pitching and defense wins games. If we keep this up for a decade or so, Coop will get his. Let's just hope he doesn't leave! :o:

viagracat
04-19-2006, 12:03 PM
Southside:

Johnny Sain...now there's a name from the past. The guy had 20 game winners season after season after season (including a few with the White Sox).

For those who don't know/remember him...he did things contrary to the norm for the times (then and now). For one thing he wasn't a big believer in pitchers getting a lot of running in (sprints and stuff). As he once put it...'You don't run the ball over the damn plate, if you did pitchers would be coming from track programs!) LOL

Lip

Spahn and Sain and pray for rain...Red Sox mantra from back in the day

miker
04-19-2006, 12:09 PM
Spahn and Sain and pray for rain...Red Sox mantra from back in the day
Don't you mean Boston's other MLB team, the Braves?

tacosalbarojas
04-19-2006, 01:41 PM
Southside:

Johnny Sain...now there's a name from the past. The guy had 20 game winners season after season after season (including a few with the White Sox).

For those who don't know/remember him...he did things contrary to the norm for the times (then and now). For one thing he wasn't a big believer in pitchers getting a lot of running in (sprints and stuff). As he once put it...'You don't run the ball over the damn plate, if you did pitchers would be coming from track programs!) LOL

LipLove that quote from "Ball Four". As for Coop, everyone loves Coop (and his New York accent) and we all saw what happened in last year's ALCS, but let's let him coach a pitcher to a Cy Young Award first before walking him with the immortal pitching coaches in the history of the game