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View Full Version : Debate I had with some friends during today's game


doublem23
04-18-2006, 05:42 AM
A couple of friends and I were sitting around around, watching the game tonight and we got into a debate about defensive centerfielders... Specifically, of the last 3 regulars we've had; Chris Singleton, Aaron Rowand, and now Brian Anderson, who do you think is the best defensively?

I say Singleton, but pretty much the rest say (of course) Rowand. So I put it to WSI. Any thoughts?

MrRoboto83
04-18-2006, 05:56 AM
I am going to say BA. I think he is going to make some great plays this year.

Bobbo35
04-18-2006, 07:51 AM
The reason why I said Rowand is because he proved himself over the course of years with the Sox. Anderson will be good, he just needs to prove it. Singleton was good, but not like No Fear Rowand.

thepaulbowski
04-18-2006, 08:45 AM
The reason why I said Rowand is because he proved himself over the course of years with the Sox. Anderson will be good, he just needs to prove it. Singleton was good, but not like No Fear Rowand.

Rowand "created" a lot of good plays. He took a lot of bad lines & reads on the ball but then made a spectacular looking play when he made up for it.

As far as defensive centerfielders, Lance Johnson saved Thigpen's arse many a times.

Edit: I voted for Singleton.

CLR01
04-18-2006, 09:01 AM
Singleton owns all of them. Everyone loves Rowand because the guy ran into a wall a few times. Singleton made it to those balls and had time to slow down.

DrCrawdad
04-18-2006, 09:15 AM
I voted for Singleton. He made difficult catches look routine.

BeviBall!
04-18-2006, 09:17 AM
I also voted for Singleton. Unfortunetly, he doesn't have the same grasp of the english language as he did for the baseball.

box013
04-18-2006, 09:22 AM
I voted for Rowand. Although Singleton and Rowand could be similarly compared in CF, Rowand seemed to get to every ball and wouldn't hesitate to lay his body on the line to make a catch. I think he had a lot more heart than Singleton out there too.

Bobbo35
04-18-2006, 09:46 AM
Everyone at times will make a bad read or take a poor line to the ball. Rowand just played his rear off in center with no remorse for his body.

vegyrex
04-18-2006, 09:50 AM
"One Dog" Lance Johnson. :cool:

batmanZoSo
04-18-2006, 09:51 AM
Singleton for sure. He was pretty graceful out there and he had a strong, accurate arm. I would take '99 Singleton in a heart beat (.300 17 74 and robbing home runs).

LuvSox
04-18-2006, 09:51 AM
Everyone at times will make a bad read or take a poor line to the ball. Rowand just played his rear off in center with no remorse for his body.

Yes, in 2005. He wasn't so great just a couple of years ago.

Singleton it is.

alohafri
04-18-2006, 10:25 AM
"One Dog" Lance Johnson. :cool:

Yeah, "One Dog" should have been one of the choices. It is way too soon to consider Brian Anderson for this poll...he has only played about 9 games this season.

viagracat
04-18-2006, 10:27 AM
BA made a good play last night. But Rowand was a great example of a "grinder". I liked him.

I'll rethink this when BA gets over the Mendoza line :D:

soxfan13
04-18-2006, 10:42 AM
Rowand "created" a lot of good plays. He took a lot of bad lines & reads on the ball but then made a spectacular looking play when he made up for it.

As far as defensive centerfielders, Lance Johnson saved Thigpen's arse many a times.

Edit: I voted for Singleton.

I agree Rowand made some great plays because of bad reads. Since alot of Sox fans like to say "Rowand would have caught that" I am going to say the play BA made last nite Rowand wouldnt have because he would have broke back first and not be able to come in fast enough. Please, it is not a knock against Rowand because I loved him just as much as any Sox fan, but I am getting alittle tired of the "rowand would have got that" comments.

batmanZoSo
04-18-2006, 10:45 AM
Yeah, "One Dog" should have been one of the choices. It is way too soon to consider Brian Anderson for this poll...he has only played about 9 games this season.

Well, doublem and his friends had a debate that didn't include Lance Johnson. It concerns the last three regulars we've had.

voodoochile
04-18-2006, 11:15 AM
Singleton no doubt, though I am not surprised by the number of votes Rowand got.

Jury is still out on Anderson. He looks to be as good as the others, but will have to do it for longer than a few weeks at this level.

I remember Singleton going up and taking away a HR that was a good 1.5 feet above the fence. His elbow was at the top of the fence when he snagged the ball. Rowand was/is a good defensive player, but Chris was more natural and a better overall athlete.

lumpyspun
04-18-2006, 11:24 AM
I agree Rowand made some great plays because of bad reads. Since alot of Sox fans like to say "Rowand would have caught that" I am going to say the play BA made last nite Rowand wouldnt have because he would have broke back first and not be able to come in fast enough. Please, it is not a knock against Rowand because I loved him just as much as any Sox fan, but I am getting alittle tired of the "rowand would have got that" comments.

If Rowand took such horrible lines and couldn't read a fly ball worth a damn, how come he started for us for a few years and there was enough demand to get him that another team was willing on taking a chance by giving up a future hall of famer? If people at WSI see it, don't baseball scouts see that he's a day late and a dollar short out there in CF?

miker
04-18-2006, 11:32 AM
Jim Landis?...oh, not an option.

It's too early to judge Anderson, but he has athleticism and potential. Singleton had great speed and Rowand had hustle and grit. Brian will do good to be compared to both Chris and Aaron.

EndemicSox
04-18-2006, 11:37 AM
Singleton for sure. He was pretty graceful out there and he had a strong, accurate arm. I would take '99 Singleton in a heart beat (.300 17 74 and robbing home runs).

Any chance he can pull an MJ and put up these #'s this year? Good call.

Chicken Dinner
04-18-2006, 11:44 AM
Rowand is short, therefore, he has to cover the same ground with more steps, thus making him turn routine plays into dramatic plays. He tries harder because he has to. I was never a Singleton fan so I'll wait and see how BA comes along.

Shafe72
04-18-2006, 11:49 AM
Lance Johnson.

Gotta love the "one dog."

wdelaney72
04-18-2006, 11:51 AM
Defensively speaking, Aaron Rowand couldn't hold Singleton's jock. There should be no discussion about this.

lumpyspun
04-18-2006, 11:52 AM
Rowand is short, therefore, he has to cover the same ground with more steps, thus making him turn routine plays into dramatic plays. He tries harder because he has to. I was never a Singleton fan so I'll wait and see how BA comes along.

So Manute Bol would make things look effortless out there? Height has nothing do with speed and the ability to get to a ball (unless the ball is going over the fence).

miker
04-18-2006, 11:53 AM
So Manute Bol would make things look effortless out there? Height has nothing do with speed and the ability to get to a ball (unless the ball is going over the fence).
Apparently you never saw Aaron run.

voodoochile
04-18-2006, 11:57 AM
So Manute Bol would make things look effortless out there? Height has nothing do with speed and the ability to get to a ball (unless the ball is going over the fence).

He didn't say that. He said it made it appear that Rowand had to work harder than Singleton.

Oh and yes, long legs do help cover more ground faster. No, it doesn't work for everyone, but given too fast athletes, the one with the longer legs will probably cover more ground faster than the one with the short legs.

Randar68
04-18-2006, 12:03 PM
If Rowand took such horrible lines and couldn't read a fly ball worth a damn, how come he started for us for a few years and there was enough demand to get him that another team was willing on taking a chance by giving up a future hall of famer? If people at WSI see it, don't baseball scouts see that he's a day late and a dollar short out there in CF?

Wow, the Kool-aid is in full effect today!

The Phillies also got our 2 best left-handed pitching prospects and have one of the best young power hitters int he game lined up at the same position making far less money than the injury-risk Thome.

Nevermind the fact that Rowand was a converted corner OF'er who never has had the pure instincts for CF but has had to play there because we've had a gaping hole at the position SINCE Singleton. He wasn't a starter there because he was irreplaceable, he was a starter there because he has a CF bat with a corner-OF defensive ability and we had no CF'er, so we stuck him in there...

Some of this crap is just hillarious to read... the lack of logic and reason when it comes to some of you folks is mind-boggling. Are you a bunch of 3rd graders with a crush or what?

soxfan13
04-18-2006, 12:03 PM
If Rowand took such horrible lines and couldn't read a fly ball worth a damn, how come he started for us for a few years and there was enough demand to get him that another team was willing on taking a chance by giving up a future hall of famer? If people at WSI see it, don't baseball scouts see that he's a day late and a dollar short out there in CF?

Obviously, didnt read my post. I said that half in jest critizing the folks that are quick to jump all over BA when he doesnt get to a ball out there. Rowand was known thru out baseball as taking a wrong first step alot of the time. The reason the Phillies gave up on Thome was the injury factor and some guy named Ryan Howard that had a bust out season with Thome on the DL

miker
04-18-2006, 12:06 PM
Wow, the Kool-aid is in full effect today!

The Phillies also got our 2 best left-handed pitching prospects and have one of the best young power hitters int he game lined up at the same position making far less money than the injury-risk Thome.
If Thome makes it through the entire season what will your opinion be? Or will it just be more name calling?:rolleyes:

soxfan13
04-18-2006, 12:06 PM
"Some of this crap is just hillarious to read... the lack of logic and reason when it comes to some of you folks is mind-boggling. Are you a bunch of 3rd graders with a crush or what?"

Aaron is kind of dreamy:redface:

voodoochile
04-18-2006, 12:09 PM
If Thome makes it through the entire season what will your opinion be? Or will it just be more name calling?:rolleyes:

He was talking about the perception before the season started. It is a fair assessment of the Phillies viewpoint - having a replacement player and figuring Thome was more of an injury risk than that younger cheaper player. All of that is true.

Randar may have been harsh in his post, but nothing about it is incorrect, IMO.

we be jake
04-18-2006, 12:11 PM
You guys are pretty funny today: Long legs, short legs, comparing apples to oranges with unproven talent, good or bad line to ball, tall vs. short, bringing up retired greats when Miker's intent was clearly the 3 in the poll, and how did Bol get into this?
It's gonna be a fun season.
:cool: we be jake

alohafri
04-18-2006, 12:13 PM
Well, doublem and his friends had a debate that didn't include Lance Johnson. It concerns the last three regulars we've had.

Well then, they should have discussed him! :wink:

And Ken Henderson!

soxfan13
04-18-2006, 12:18 PM
I think there should be a new poll

(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9htfSvDEEVElN0Awq5XNyoA/SIG=15vvu27rq/EXP=1145463363/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fp=eddie%2bgaedel%26sp=1%26fr2=sp-top%26ei=UTF-8%26fr=slv1-msgr%26ei=UTF-8%26SpellState=n-1438029478_q-9hssZv6jwQXC3fknY2DHMgABAA%2540%2540)Eddie Gaedel (even though he was St. Louis Browns)
Lance Johnson
Manute Bol

:supernana:

we be jake
04-18-2006, 12:21 PM
how about
Manute Bol
Willie Shoemaker
Ethel Merman

Randar68
04-18-2006, 12:21 PM
If Thome makes it through the entire season what will your opinion be? Or will it just be more name calling?:rolleyes:

It was a good trade for the Sox because:

1) They acquired a lefty power bat in the middle of the lineup
2) Got Philly to pay a hefty chunk of the contract
3) their top position prospect played the same position as Rowand (somewhat similar reason why Philly was willing and ready to trade Thome)

I expect Thome to make it through and have always thought it was a great trade, but he WAS coming off of 2 non-trivial injuries and there are no guarantees when it comes to aging power-hitters.

For the price we got him for, Thome is a steal. In this Rowand thread, responding to my post with the above quoted post, I still haven't figured out if you're trying to put together a coherent thought or just babbling...

miker
04-18-2006, 12:21 PM
I think there should be a new poll

Eddie Gaedel (even though he was St. Louis Browns)
Lance Johnson
Manute Bol

:supernana:
I vote for Eddie, he had that first-step quickness...

soxfan13
04-18-2006, 12:23 PM
I vote for Eddie, he had that first-step quickness...

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

miker
04-18-2006, 12:25 PM
I still haven't figured out if you're trying to put together a coherent thought or just babbling...
I am sorry, I thought this was a baseball discussion board not an insult board.

peeonwrigley
04-18-2006, 12:26 PM
I would like to see another month or two of Anderson before making this vote, so I'll abstain.

voodoochile
04-18-2006, 12:27 PM
If Thome makes it through the entire season what will your opinion be? Or will it just be more name calling?:rolleyes:

For the price we got him for, Thome is a steal. In this Rowand thread, responding to my post with the above quoted post, I still haven't figured out if you're trying to put together a coherent thought or just babbling...

I am sorry, I thought this was a baseball discussion board not an insult board.

Do I have to split this thread and sent you two to the Roadhouse or are you going to play nice.

I HATE splitting threads...:?:

miker
04-18-2006, 12:29 PM
I'll behave...

...and it was a great trade for both teams,

...and here's hoping Brian becomes the best centerfielder of the three! :gulp:

lumpyspun
04-18-2006, 12:35 PM
Let's get back to short legs/long legs here:

Singleton is listed at 6'2'' in his playing days.
Anderson is listed at 6'2''
Rowand is listed at 6'1''.
Bol is listed at 7'6''

Not a major difference at all, but I will say that Rowand's legs are probably shorter out of proportion than what they should be compared to the height differences. In any event, if a guy has to run 40 feet to catch a ball, it only really matters how fast he is, not how long his legs are. Rowand caught fly balls, I don't care what it looked like. Hopefully, Anderson can catch fly balls too.

voodoochile
04-18-2006, 12:38 PM
Let's get back to short legs/long legs here:

Singleton is listed at 6'2'' in his playing days.
Anderson is listed at 6'2''
Rowand is listed at 6'1''.
Bol is listed at 7'6''

Not a major difference at all...but I will say that Rowand's legs are probably shorter out of proportion than what they should be compared to the height differences. In any event, if a guy has to run 40 feet to catch a ball, it only really matters how fast he is, not how long his legs are. Rowand caught fly balls, I don't care what it looked like...hopefully, Anderson can catch fly balls too.

The Phillies list Rowand as 6'0" and if he's actually that tall, I'd be surprised.

batmanZoSo
04-18-2006, 12:39 PM
I am sorry, I thought this was a baseball discussion board not an insult board.

It's actually both. Join the fun! I'll give you a jump start and you can finish it...

Your momma's so fat...

:redneck

Shoeless_Jim
04-18-2006, 12:39 PM
i think it is rowand for sure. but thats just me. Who knows, we havent seen much of Anderson, he could be better than rownad and singleton. We will find out soon enough.

Randar68
04-18-2006, 12:40 PM
I'll behave...


I'm still waiting for you to go back and make a coherent thought out of your post. Not being argumentative, but if you're going to attack my viewpoint, at least make a coherent argument that has anything to do with the content of my actual post if you're going to attempt to take the "high road"...

Otherwise, leave the lectures for the mods.

batmanZoSo
04-18-2006, 12:42 PM
The Phillies list Rowand as 6'0" and if he's actually that tall, I'd be surprised.

Yeah, I always that was a bit of a stretch. He's got about the same build as Ray Durham, maybe an inch or two taller which would put him at 5'11". Of course I've never met him so I don't know.

Randar68
04-18-2006, 12:47 PM
I still think Singleton is the best of the bunch. He covered WAY more ground than Rowand and more than Anderson, he was a GREAT athlete in terms of run/jump ability. He played shallow, had a strong but more importantly, VERY ACCURATE arm.

I would rate as follows:

Instincts:
1) Singleton
2) Anderson (think he will be #1 on the list once he is comfortable in the league and has seen all the various stadiums, OF's)
3) Rowand

Arm:
1) Anderson (best raw arm and has better accuracy than Rowand, footwork is sound)
2) Singleton (not as good an arm as Anderson but slightly more accurate)
3) Rowand (arm about equivalent to Singleton, but only in 2005 did he ever figure out the footwork aspect and was still inconsistent with it and his accuracy)

Speed:
1) Singleton
2) Anderson
3) Rowand


Overall right now:
1) Singleton
2) Anderson
3) Rowand

Anderson has a chance to move to #1 when he settles in, but Singleton was very smooth and natural out there and had the ability to go get the ball anywhere, including over the wall.

peeonwrigley
04-18-2006, 12:52 PM
The Phillies list Rowand as 6'0" and if he's actually that tall, I'd be surprised.

I saw Anderson out a few nights ago, there is no chance in hell he is 6'2". I'm 5'11 and I don't think he was taller than me, and if he was its only by an inch.

Granted, he was with McCarthy who is probably all of the 6'7" at which the Sox list him. So he looked like a midget.

Randar68
04-18-2006, 12:56 PM
I saw Anderson out a few nights ago, there is no chance in hell he is 6'2". I'm 5'11 and I don't think he was taller than me, and if he was its only by an inch.

Granted, he was with McCarthy who is probably all of the 6'7" at which the Sox list him. So he looked like a midget.

I'm 6'3" and having stood next to both I can say Anderson is about 6'1" IMO and McCarthy, as you say, is ALL of 6'7".

doublem23
04-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Well, doublem and his friends had a debate that didn't include Lance Johnson. It concerns the last three regulars we've had.

Back in One Dog's days, I was still too young to really know what the hell was going on. I had basic concepts of baseball, but I had no idea what I was really watching. Singleton was the first CF I remember watching when I had some grasp to a greater depth of baseball knowledge (more thann three strikes and you're out).

Anyways, damn... He was good. Remember that grab he had in... maybe 2001ish? when he robbed Paul O'Neill of a homer at Comiskey by going like 5 feet over the wall? Ridiculous.

maurice
04-18-2006, 01:59 PM
IMO, Anderson > Singleton >> Rowand. Right now, Rowand leads 61 to 26 to 17. That's silly.

Rowand turned himself into a good CF, but Singleton and Anderson are a step ahead of him. As for Anderson v. Rowand straight up, Anderson can make every play that Rowand can make and then some.

Johnson was good as well, but his arm strength cannot compare to the other 3 guys.

Keep in mind that all 4 of these guys are well above average. It's not like we're negatively comparing Rowand to Dave Henderson.

maurice
04-18-2006, 02:23 PM
While we're messing up the poll by bringing in great CFers who left the Sox organization, I'll throw in Cameron, Reed, Young, and Harris.

Like I always say, the motto of the Sox organization should be "cradle of outfielders and relief pitchers."

slobes
04-18-2006, 02:29 PM
While we're messing up the poll by bringing in great CFers who left the Sox organization, I'll throw in Cameron, Reed, Young, and Harris."

:timo: Don't forget about me.

That one series last year at New York that Rowand had is tough to beat on a defensive standpoint. Like some people have said though, I don't think we've seen enough of Mr. Anderson to really compare him to the other two guys yet.

That one series last year at New York that Rowand had is tough to beat on a defensive standpoint. Like some people have said though, I don't think we've seen enough of Mr. Anderson to really compare him to the other two guys yet.

ILuvThatDuck
04-18-2006, 02:32 PM
BA will win some games with his arm-strength. This is why he gets my vote.

fuzzy_patters
04-18-2006, 02:52 PM
Even though he had a rag arm, my vote goes to Lance Johnson. He had tremendous range and an uncanny ability to lay out and make catches.

thomas35forever
04-18-2006, 06:04 PM
It's gotta be Rowand. He was the grinder player last year.

TDog
04-18-2006, 06:18 PM
My frame of reference is Ken Berry.

gbergman
04-18-2006, 06:19 PM
crash all the way. rowands going to win gold gloves playing for philly and though both his counteparts were or are good def. arow will have the better def. career

Risk
04-18-2006, 06:27 PM
Gotta go with Singleton. He made the difficult catches look routine.

As much as I loved Rowand's guts and intensity, I still don't think he was on the same level as Singletion.

Now, if One Dog or Mike Cameron were an option, I would have picked them over all of the above.

Risk

gaelhound
04-18-2006, 07:03 PM
A couple of friends and I were sitting around around, watching the game tonight and we got into a debate about defensive centerfielders... Specifically, of the last 3 regulars we've had; Chris Singleton, Aaron Rowand, and now Brian Anderson, who do you think is the best defensively?

I say Singleton, but pretty much the rest say (of course) Rowand. So I put it to WSI. Any thoughts?
I've seen ken Berry, you have a poll that does not cover 75% of my conscious White Sox memory. And people are debating Anderson?

I_Liked_Manuel
04-18-2006, 07:16 PM
Defensively speaking, Aaron Rowand couldn't hold Singleton's jock. There should be no discussion about this.

this thread should have been locked after this post

StatHead21
04-19-2006, 04:04 AM
Aaron Rowand's defense inspired a book (The Fielding Bible by John Dewan) Anderson has played less than a month and to say him because of his 2 diving catches the past two nights is ridiculous. Rowand the best defensive CFer in the game.

Grzegorz
04-19-2006, 05:35 AM
The best? Jim Landis (Ken Berry a close second)...

In modern times you must exclude Brian Anderson (too early) and include: Dave Gallagher, Brian Simmons, & Kenny Williams.

wdelaney72
04-19-2006, 11:52 AM
this thread should have been locked after this post

Unfortunately, some of the people in the Aaron Rowand fan club, probably are too young to really remember Singleton, or are mistakenly including offensive productivity, which given Rowand's performance last year, shouldn't help his cause.

Singleton was overall a better athlete and a more instinctive CF. I'm not bashing Rowand. I think he's a decent defender with a very good arm. The thread asked who was better defensively, and those of us that were around to watch Singleton know that this is a no brainer.

FWIW, I think Rowand would make a much better radio personality, but that's an uphill battle for even the most engaging of personalities as long as while you know who is doing PBP.
:D:

tacosalbarojas
04-19-2006, 01:36 PM
but Singleton was very smooth and natural out there and had the ability to go get the ball anywhere, including over the wall.Like that game in September 2000 when he saved Parque's shutout..(Parque's shutout??? am I really remembering the starter correctly here?). Anyway, it was a hell of a catch over the left center field wall. Yeah, mark me down for Singleton too.

maurice
04-19-2006, 02:54 PM
Anderson has played less than a month and to say him because of his 2 diving catches the past two nights is ridiculous.

Is it still ridiculous if I watched Anderson make 2 diving catches in MLB + many great defensive plays in Tucson, Charlotte, Toledo, Louisville, and Indianapolis?

Rowand the best defensive CFer in the game.

:kukoo:

Randar68
04-19-2006, 03:07 PM
Is it still ridiculous if I watched Anderson make 2 diving catches in MLB + many great defensive plays in Tucson, Charlotte, Toledo, Louisville, and Indianapolis?


No kidding. I still don't know why this poll wouldn't include Mike Cameron, he was the best of the bunch in his early years. He was Torii Hunter WITH talent...

Lance Johnson isn't even in the discussion because he had an arm not even Kenny Lofton would be envious of, and that is part of the equation...

This irrational Rowand love is mind-boggling... Run into a couple of walls and make routine plays into a circus and I guess the masses will bow down at your feet and anoint you the second coming of Willie Mays...

wdelaney72
04-19-2006, 03:32 PM
No kidding. I still don't know why this poll wouldn't include Mike Cameron

Good point.

jandm859
04-19-2006, 05:12 PM
Singleton for sure. He was pretty graceful out there and he had a strong, accurate arm. I would take '99 Singleton in a heart beat (.300 17 74 and robbing home runs).

i agree lets not forget that rowand threw just a little better then ken lofton . my sister throws better then ken lofton