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View Full Version : Tejada costs Javy Lopez a HR - I've never seen this before in baseball


SouthSide_HitMen
04-16-2006, 11:27 PM
Javy Lopez (C) Bal (http://www.rototimes.com/index.php?sport=bsball&type=profile&name=317) was robbed of a home run on Sunday when he was ruled out after passing Miguel Tejada on the bases. Tejada believed that the ball had been caught and retreated to first base.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap;_ylt=AnVjTzj1x_.8x7oI2tGrKuI5nYcB?gid=260416 101


Lopez was merely looking for a home-run call when he sent a drive to center in the second inning with Miguel Tejada (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5888/) on first base. As the ball approached the 7-foot wall, Darin Erstad (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5634/) leaped to make the catch. When he tumbled to the ground, it was uncertain whether he caught the ball. By the time Erstad displayed his empty glove, Tejada had retreated from second base and was passed by Lopez. By rule, Lopez was credited with an RBI single and called out for passing the runner.

"Me and Tejada were looking at the umpire the whole time, wondering what kind of call he was going to make. We were wondering if the ball was out or (Erstad) got it in his glove," Lopez said. "One umpire called an out, so obviously Tejada went back to first base. Then the other umpire said the ball was out. But by the time he made the call, I had already passed Tejada."

ilsox7
04-16-2006, 11:31 PM
If an umpire did in fact signal "out" I wonder if this was the right call. Anyone know?

Lip Man 1
04-16-2006, 11:34 PM
This has actually happened before.

And on a related note on Opening Day 1971 in Oakland the Sox Carlos May was called out for failing to touch home plate after he hit a home run!

Lip

SouthSide_HitMen
04-16-2006, 11:36 PM
I thought the ball is dead after a home run and both runners would be allowed to score. I doubt Javy passed Tejada before the ball cleared the wall.

Last season a runner was injured running the bases (between 1st and 2nd) after his home run and he was allowed a pinch runner mid play as the home run made the ball "dead".

Any umpires here to clarify?

SOXintheBURGH
04-16-2006, 11:47 PM
I thought the ball is dead after a home run and both runners would be allowed to score. I doubt Javy passed Tejada before the ball cleared the wall.

Last season a runner was injured running the bases (between 1st and 2nd) after his home run and he was allowed a pinch runner mid play as the home run made the ball "dead".

Any umpires here to clarify?

That's the first thing I thought of too. Ask Doug Eddings?

Ol' No. 2
04-16-2006, 11:56 PM
I thought the ball is dead after a home run and both runners would be allowed to score. I doubt Javy passed Tejada before the ball cleared the wall.

Last season a runner was injured running the bases (between 1st and 2nd) after his home run and he was allowed a pinch runner mid play as the home run made the ball "dead".

Any umpires here to clarify?There were four umpires in Baltimore that made a perfectly clear ruling. If they were mistaken, I'm sure Baltimore would have appealed.

ilsox7
04-16-2006, 11:57 PM
There were four umpires in Baltimore that made a perfectly clear ruling. If they were mistaken, I'm sure Baltimore would have appealed.

But what if, say, the 2nd base umpire runs out and signals out. The base runner then re-treats, passing the batter. Then after a few seconds it is seen to have cleared the fence. That is what I am curious about.

Hokiesox
04-17-2006, 12:01 AM
I was actually there.

Looked pretty weird to me too. I couldn't tell and Lopez's description pretty much summed the whole thing up. I was laughing at the result though. Once a runner passes a guy in front of him, he's OUT. No do-overs.

Ol' No. 2
04-17-2006, 12:02 AM
But what if, say, the 2nd base umpire runs out and signals out. The base runner then re-treats, passing the batter. Then after a few seconds it is seen to have cleared the fence. That is what I am curious about.As I understand the rule, it doesn't matter. You never pass a runner on the basepaths. It kind of sucks if the umpire called him out, but that's the rule.

voodoochile
04-17-2006, 12:05 AM
As I understand the rule, it doesn't matter. You never pass a runner on the basepaths. It kind of sucks if the umpire called him out, but that's the rule.

Right, why keep running. If it's an out, you are going back to the dugout. If it's gone, you both get to circle the bases. Just pay attention and stop running when you see the guy in front of you retreating.

Javy did it to himself.

ilsox7
04-17-2006, 12:06 AM
As I understand the rule, it doesn't matter. You never pass a runner on the basepaths. It kind of sucks if the umpire called him out, but that's the rule.

That was my understanding too.

NDSox12
04-17-2006, 12:15 AM
I have seen that happen one time before... in one of my high school baseball games. One of our players hit a home run, but passed up the runner on first who had gone back to tag up. Fortunately, we wound up winning the game easily anyway.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-17-2006, 01:18 AM
There were four umpires in Baltimore that made a perfectly clear ruling. If they were mistaken, I'm sure Baltimore would have appealed.

I am not disputing the call - I just want clarification.

Why is a home run ball "dead" when a player is injured and he is allowed to be replaced "mid play" but the ball is not ruled "dead" after it has cleared the fence but before the runner on base is passed by the batter?

It seems inconsistent to me. If the home run counts no matter what in the first instance (the player can be replaced in the middle of a play - the batter running the bases) then the same scenario should apply in the second - both runs should score and play should resume as long as the batter did not pass the runner until after the ball cleared the fence and it was a home run (unless the ball is not "dead" until the umpire gives the home run signal and since there was some ambiguity until the umpire knew the ball was not in Erstad's glove and Lopez may have passed Tejada after the home run (i.e. after the ball cleared the fence) but before the umpire signalled home run - that I understand).

I guess I can scroll through the rulebook but I was asking for a clarification why the two rulings are inconsistent (at least in my eyes). This is like one of those "Ask the Umpire" questions in Baseball Digest (back before the internet when a subscription to The Sporting News (I remember when they covered baseball and mostly baseball including box scores of everygame) and Baseball Digest (as well as Hockey Digest and The Hockey News) was a MUST!

StockdaleForVeep
04-17-2006, 04:19 AM
I thought the ball is dead after a home run and both runners would be allowed to score. I doubt Javy passed Tejada before the ball cleared the wall.

Last season a runner was injured running the bases (between 1st and 2nd) after his home run and he was allowed a pinch runner mid play as the home run made the ball "dead".

Any umpires here to clarify?

There was the issue last year with i wanna say boston and trot nixon? Someone hit a homerun and as he was jogging he tore some tendon in his leg and went down. The guy made sure not to pass him up cuz he knew if he passed the runner up, there would be an out so he simply waited till they could get him up and pinch ran durin the hr

TommyJohn
04-17-2006, 08:03 AM
I can think of two famous instances where this happened:

In Harvey Haddix's 12 inning perfect game, Joe Adcock actually hit a
three run homer to end it, but Hank Aaron walked off the field after
touching third base. Adcock kept running and did not see Aaron leave.
He was called out and credited with a double.

On July 4, 1976 in Philadelphia, Tim McCarver hit a Bicentennial Grand Slam.
What a great moment! Except that Bake McBride held up at first
base and McCarver passed him. He was called out and credited with a
single.

Make that three. I also remember the 1999 playoff game between the
Braves and Mets when Robin Ventura lost a game-winning grand slam
because lunkhead Todd Pratt turned around halfway to second base
and picked up Ventura. Pratt was called out for impeding the runner
and Ventura was held to a single.

Ol' No. 2
04-17-2006, 10:11 AM
I am not disputing the call - I just want clarification.

Why is a home run ball "dead" when a player is injured and he is allowed to be replaced "mid play" but the ball is not ruled "dead" after it has cleared the fence but before the runner on base is passed by the batter?

It seems inconsistent to me. If the home run counts no matter what in the first instance (the player can be replaced in the middle of a play - the batter running the bases) then the same scenario should apply in the second - both runs should score and play should resume as long as the batter did not pass the runner until after the ball cleared the fence and it was a home run (unless the ball is not "dead" until the umpire gives the home run signal and since there was some ambiguity until the umpire knew the ball was not in Erstad's glove and Lopez may have passed Tejada after the home run (i.e. after the ball cleared the fence) but before the umpire signalled home run - that I understand).

I guess I can scroll through the rulebook but I was asking for a clarification why the two rulings are inconsistent (at least in my eyes). This is like one of those "Ask the Umpire" questions in Baseball Digest (back before the internet when a subscription to The Sporting News (I remember when they covered baseball and mostly baseball including box scores of everygame) and Baseball Digest (as well as Hockey Digest and The Hockey News) was a MUST!The inconsistency is only because you're assuming that a dead ball means anything goes. The dead ball and passing a runner have nothing to do with one another.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-17-2006, 02:33 PM
The inconsistency is only because you're assuming that a dead ball means anything goes. The dead ball and passing a runner have nothing to do with one another.

After reading your and other posts I have a better understanding as to why last year's "change runner in mid play" ruling stands and why this (and other) instances of passing a runner is not allowed.

Thanks for the clarification everyone.

TDog
04-17-2006, 02:48 PM
This has actually happened before.

And on a related note on Opening Day 1971 in Oakland the Sox Carlos May was called out for failing to touch home plate after he hit a home run!

Lip


Not only have I seen this on a home run, I have seen it happen to the White Sox. It happened, of course, in 1977. People remember 1977 fondly, but they forget what a truly wild ride it was.

In the third inning of a 6-5 loss on June 24, 1977, at Minnesota, Ralph Garr hit what could have been a 3-run homer to right. He passed Jim Essian (who had reached on an error in this well-played game) at first base, as there was some question about whether the ball was caught. Harry Caray was screaming that he didn't know what was going on. Garr got credit for a 2-run single, and Essian, who wasn't very fast, can say he scored from first on a single.

Of course, the Sox lost by 1 run. Lyman Bostock, who would be shot to death the next year in Gary, Ind., after a game against the Sox, homered to break the tie, leading off the eighth for the Twins.

As for Carlos May missing home plate, I was listening to the play on the radio. It was the second game of the scheduled opening-day doubleheader in Oakland. After the Sox won the opener behind Tommy John, Carlos May hit what appeared to be a first-inning 3-run homer to put the Sox up 4-0. Harry Caray was screaming that he missed the plate, and with Carlos in the dugout, the A's appealed at home for the out, giving him a 2-run triple. The Sox won the game 12-4, with Clair Barth Johnson pitching a complete game.

There is a story about Marv Throneberry getting called out on an appeal play at first after hitting an apparent home run for the '62 Mets. When Casey Stengel came out to argue, the umpire told him Throneberry missed second base, too. Or so it is said.

ondafarm
04-17-2006, 02:59 PM
I was going to say that this had happened to the Sox before in 1977, so I know its not unheard of. I think it marks the epitome of dumb players in baseball to blow it though.

EastCoastSoxFan
04-17-2006, 04:03 PM
Hey, the entire Mets team once cost Robin Ventura a grand slam -- not that it mattered to the outcome of that particular playoff game...

I want Mags back
04-17-2006, 04:11 PM
I thought the ball is dead after a home run and both runners would be allowed to score. I doubt Javy passed Tejada before the ball cleared the wall.

Last season a runner was injured running the bases (between 1st and 2nd) after his home run and he was allowed a pinch runner mid play as the home run made the ball "dead".

Any umpires here to clarify?

Im a little league umpire. Even if the ball is dead after a home run, all runners must still follow all rules of running the bases making sure not to pass an ahead news. the pinch runner thing is legal.

Ol' No. 2
04-17-2006, 04:55 PM
Im a little league umpire. Even if the ball is dead after a home run, all runners must still follow all rules of running the bases making sure not to pass an ahead news. the pinch runner thing is legal.I think that's spelled "gnus". And passing one can be dangerous, as well.

http://www.panoramahunting.com.na/Images/weissschwanz%20gnu%201.jpg

downstairs
04-17-2006, 06:42 PM
A "dead ball" does not mean a "dead play". The ball is dead and essentially has nothing to do with the LIVE play from then on out. (Obviously- its in a fan's hands).

The PLAY is not dead, and all rules still apply.

Hence, you can miss a base, pass a runner, or do lots of other things to screw up the play.