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Vsahajpal
01-22-2002, 11:26 PM
http://www.sportingnews.com/baseball/features/100_prospects.html

here's a bonus!

http://www.rotoworld.com/display2.asp?sport=MLB&page=columns&column=prospects

Rotoworld's top 100 prospects

Chisox_cali
01-22-2002, 11:40 PM
9. Joe Borchard - OF White Sox - Age 22 - Preseason NR - Midseason #9 - ETA: Sept. 2002
.414, 0 HR, 8 RBI, 4/4 K/BB, 0 SB in 29 AB for Rookie AZL White Sox
.295, 27 HR, 98 RBI, 158/67 K/BB, 5 SB in 515 AB for Double-A Birmingham
.204, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 11/6 K/BB, 1 SB in 54 AB for Mesa of the AFL

Borchard, the former Stanford quarterback, might have more power potential than anyone in the minors. The big question with him is whether or not he can be a major league center fielder. Borchard is a natural right fielder . He might be adequate in center for teams with quality defenders at the corners, but the White Sox arenít one of those teams. For that reason, Borchard may have to wait until 2003 for his chance. By then, the Sox will have decided which of their outfielders to keep

LF Maggs
CF Rowand
RF Borchard

Let's get it done

Vsahajpal
01-22-2002, 11:52 PM
am I the only one here who likes Carlos Lee a whole lot?

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 11:55 PM
Hmmmm... Interesting lists. I think I need to do my own top 50 or so. I'm probably too lazy to do a top 100. I'd just need someplace to run my top 50. I think I agree with the top picks of the rotoworld list more and the entirety of the TSN list more. There is no way Hank Blalock is "just" the number 11 prospect in baseball but there is also no way Kenny Baugh is the number 24 prospect.

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
am I the only one here who likes Carlos Lee a whole lot?

I like Lee, not a whole lot, but I like him.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
am I the only one here who likes Carlos Lee a whole lot?

Most of us soured on El Caballo after his lousy second-half. Personally, I think the guy is a jewel. I dream he might be the next Manny Ramirez--big, strong, and undisciplined.

I'm glad the Sox were smart enough to lock him up for two years. His value will never be lower. At the very worse, he'll have outstanding trade value. Personally, I hope the Sox hold onto him.

Daver
01-23-2002, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
am I the only one here who likes Carlos Lee a whole lot?

The Cubs can have him for Kerry Wood.

:)

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Most of us soured on El Caballo after his lousy second-half. Personally, I think the guy is a jewel. I dream he might be the next Manny Ramirez--big, strong, and undisciplined.

I'm glad the Sox were smart enough to lock him up for two years. His value will never be lower. At the very worse, he'll have outstanding trade value. Personally, I hope the Sox hold onto him.

You summed up my thoughts on this topic beautifully, George.

Vsahajpal
01-23-2002, 12:06 AM
When he's on, he's just lethal. I think Alou will be better over the next season, but the Cubs needed a left fielder, and a powerful right-handed bat behind McGriff and Caballo fits that bill. Granted the sample size is small, but he just rips apart NL Central pitching. I wonder what it would've taken to get Lee. Did they shop him at all last year?

MikeKreevich
01-23-2002, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
am I the only one here who likes Carlos Lee a whole lot? I think most of us like him. We also think he needs a bigger glove. A REAL BIG GLOVE!

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Most of us soured on El Caballo after his lousy second-half. Personally, I think the guy is a jewel. I dream he might be the next Manny Ramirez--big, strong, and undisciplined.


People have been comparing Lee to Manny for a while and the thing that gets me about that comparison is that Manny walked 75 times in his first full season. By comparison Carlos has walked 76 times in the last two years combined. Manny is now good for 80-90 walks a year, he's really not undisciplined.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
When he's on, he's just lethal. I think Alou will be better over the next season, but the Cubs needed a left fielder, and a powerful right-handed bat behind McGriff and Caballo fits that bill. Granted the sample size is small, but he just rips apart NL Central pitching. I wonder what it would've taken to get Lee. Did they shop him at all last year?

They didn't really shop Lee last season, because he only really fell off after the trading deadline. He's been in discussion for trades this off-season, but apparently the Sox aren't going to give him up unless someone blows them away with an offer, which noone did.

If it were me, I'd only give up Lee for an excellent pitcher or a good catcher.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


People have been comparing Lee to Manny for a while and the thing that gets me about that comparison is that Manny walked 75 times in his first full season. By comparison Carlos has walked 76 times in the last two years combined. Manny is now good for 80-90 walks a year, he's really not undisciplined.

Lee's OBP is surprisingly high for a guy who swings from the heels the way he does. I'd compare him to Richie Sexson, but Lee makes contact more often. Lee's potential is like Rondell White, IMO.

Vsahajpal
01-23-2002, 12:17 AM
Well, I'm not your typical Cub fan...I'm not going to try and pawn off a Joe Girardi and a Jason Bere for Caballo...but I got this shiny new Robert Machado in the back...hang on a sec, I swear that thing can log some serious miles for you...

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Well, I'm not your typical Cub fan...I'm not going to try and pawn off a Joe Girardi and a Jason Bere for Caballo...but I got this shiny new Robert Machado in the back...hang on a sec, I swear that thing can log some serious miles for you...

LOL!! We already had Machado - you can keep him.

But I've seen some crazy trades suggested by Cub fans - the philosophy that 5 crappy players = 1 great player always is good for a laugh.

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Lee's OBP is surprisingly high for a guy who swings from the heels the way he does. I'd compare him to Richie Sexson, but Lee makes contact more often. Lee's potential is like Rondell White, IMO.

I see Lee as somewhere between White and Raul Mondesi at the plate unfortunately he's no where near those guys in the field.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Well, I'm not your typical Cub fan...I'm not going to try and pawn off a Joe Girardi and a Jason Bere for Caballo...but I got this shiny new Robert Machado in the back...hang on a sec, I swear that thing can log some serious miles for you...

Hey, for a minute I thought I was on the Cubs troll board!

Vsahajpal
01-23-2002, 12:25 AM
Oh lord, some Cub fans are just hopelessly ignorant. Like say, 30%.

Chisox_cali
01-23-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I see Lee as somewhere between White and Raul Mondesi at the plate unfortunately he's no where near those guys in the field.

Can I get some agreement that a Maggs Rowand Borchard OF would suit us defensively better than if Lee was there

FarWestChicago
01-23-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
am I the only one here who likes Carlos Lee a whole lot? No, I like Caballo.

Daver
01-23-2002, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
No, I like Caballo.

Perhaps you should edit that to say I like him with a REALLY big glove?

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Can I get some agreement that a Maggs Rowand Borchard OF would suit us defensively better than if Lee was there

I'm sorry but NO. I get the idea of Rowand in left beacuse he actually would be a defensive upgrade there but I'm not convinced he is a major league centerfielder. I'd rather go with Lee, Borchard, Maggs. Really if it were up to me I'd say start Borchard in center out of spring.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Really if it were up to me I'd say start Borchard in center out of spring.

Really? He struck out an awful lot against AA pitching last season. I'd really like to see him learn some discipline, or at least show that he can hit AAA pitching, before seeing time in a Sox uniform.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as excited about him as anyone, and I haven't actually seen him play, but his numbers at AA would give me pause.

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Really? He struck out an awful lot against AA pitching last season. I'd really like to see him learn some discipline, or at least show that he can hit AAA pitching, before seeing time in a Sox uniform.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as excited about him as anyone, and I haven't actually seen him play, but his numbers at AA would give me pause.

Oh I know EXACTLY what you mean but just think about the other options in center. Chris Singleton, Brian Simmons and Julio Ramirez. I guess you can even throw Rowand in there, I don't like him either. That's why I'd throw Borchard out there.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Oh I know EXACTLY what you mean but just think about the other options in center. Chris Singleton, Brian Simmons and Julio Ramirez. I guess you can even throw Rowand in there, I don't like him either. That's why I'd throw Borchard out there.

Well, Ramirez sucks, but I like Brian Simmons (don't know why, I just do), and while Singleton isn't going to replace Durham at leadoff, he is good in limited duty, or at least until August, which is the earliest I would bring up Borchard.

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Well, Ramirez sucks, but I like Brian Simmons (don't know why, I just do), and while Singleton isn't going to replace Durham at leadoff, he is good in limited duty, or at least until August, which is the earliest I would bring up Borchard.

Ya know for some weird reason I like Simmons too but every time that gets out of hand I sit down look at his numbers and realize there is no good reason to like Brian Simmons.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Ya know for some weird reason I like Simmons too but every time that gets out of hand I sit down look at his numbers and realize there is no good reason to like Brian Simmons.

LOL! Good point.

2 non-statistical reasons to like Brian Simmons -

1) defense - he's probably the best defensive outfielder we've got.

2) hustle. I mean, come on, the guy got hurt hustling in two consecutive springs in meaningless Spring Training games. He's definitely in the "crash through the outfield wall" mode.

speaking of crashing through the wall, have you guys seen the sports drink commercial where they dug up that old minor-league footage? Wasn't that a Sox minor-leaguer who did that?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Ya know for some weird reason I like Simmons too but every time that gets out of hand I sit down look at his numbers and realize there is no good reason to like Brian Simmons.

Simmons was running into walls before Rowand made it fashionable.

:rowand
"I figure to leave several dents in the padding this season!"

Daver
01-23-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


LOL! Good point.

2 non-statistical reasons to like Brian Simmons -

1) defense - he's probably the best defensive outfielder we've got.


I think Julio has more to offer defensively,but thats just me.I doubt he will ever be able to hit MLB pitching.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz
speaking of crashing through the wall, have you guys seen the sports drink commercial where they dug up that old minor-league footage? Wasn't that a Sox minor-leaguer who did that?

Rodney McCray? I think it was 1989 in Vancouver.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 01:16 AM
Yes! Thank you! That was driving me nuts. I remember Rodney McCray was one of Jeff Torborg's personal favorites.

Randar68
01-23-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Really? He struck out an awful lot against AA pitching last season. I'd really like to see him learn some discipline, or at least show that he can hit AAA pitching, before seeing time in a Sox uniform.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as excited about him as anyone, and I haven't actually seen him play, but his numbers at AA would give me pause.


This is the part that drives me absolutely NUTS! He strikes out, yes. Yet his OBP was still .384! You're telling me that you'd be disappointed, if, say, Borchard was out # 7 hitter this year, hit .280-.290, with around 30 HR's, 100 BB's, and 100 RBI's, because he struck out 160 times?

That would be like telling me Sammy Sosa isn't a good hitter because he strikes out a lot!


I'm with Kermit, I'd like to see them give him the opening day CF spot, and leave him there. He will not learn discipline and cutting down his swing in AAA where he could hit the ball 100 feet past the fence on a regular basis....

K's are not the end-all, be-all....OBP is the true measure of a power hitter's value at the plate....

Randar68
01-23-2002, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by daver


I think Julio has more to offer defensively,but thats just me.I doubt he will ever be able to hit MLB pitching.

I'm with you Daver. If Simmons is only going to his under .200, Ramirez has better range and a better arm....

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Randar68



This is the part that drives me absolutely NUTS! He strikes out, yes. Yet his OBP was still .384! You're telling me that you'd be disappointed, if, say, Borchard was out # 7 hitter this year, hit .280-.290, with around 30 HR's, 100 BB's, and 100 RBI's, because he struck out 160 times?

That would be like telling me Sammy Sosa isn't a good hitter because he strikes out a lot!


I understand what you're saying. If he put up numbers like that, I'd be happy. It's just that he struck out over 100 times against AA pitching, which is a lot different from striking out 100 times against major-league pitching. All those K's tell me he's not quite ready for the big-time yet.

Randar68
01-23-2002, 03:37 PM
I understand what you're saying. If he put up numbers like that, I'd be happy. It's just that he struck out over 100 times against AA pitching, which is a lot different from striking out 100 times against major-league pitching. All those K's tell me he's not quite ready for the big-time yet.


I understand where you are coming from, but I have seen him play and am confident in his physical ability, as well as his mental preparation and work ethic to think that he will be ready no matter when you throw him in there.

Just my opinion, but I also think it's not the K's that make a power hitter unproductive or not valuable, it is his OBP and willingness to take walks and also be a situational player (work counts, hit to the right, cut down the swing to hit a sac fly, etc...) that make them valuable...I think Joe does all of that...

fuzzy_patters
01-23-2002, 04:08 PM
The problem with Borchard's K's is that they came against AA pitching. I would have no problem promoting a guy with a good K/BB ratio, but I would prefer to send Borchard to AAA and see what happens there. If he continues with his .380-.400 OBP with power than we promote him. My fear is that there is a hole in either his swing or mental approach that big league pitchers will abuse.

Another thought, since AAA pitchers are sometimes guys on their way down their often more experienced. This would make AAA an excellent proving ground for Joe B.

Randar68
01-23-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
The problem with Borchard's K's is that they came against AA pitching. I would have no problem promoting a guy with a good K/BB ratio, but I would prefer to send Borchard to AAA and see what happens there. If he continues with his .380-.400 OBP with power than we promote him. My fear is that there is a hole in either his swing or mental approach that big league pitchers will abuse.

Another thought, since AAA pitchers are sometimes guys on their way down their often more experienced. This would make AAA an excellent proving ground for Joe B.

IMO, and I have been to Hoover Met, and to Charlotte's home field, Knight's Stadium, I do not think Joe will benefit from being in that environment. If he performs well in Spring Training, I hope the Sox put him out there in CF and leave him out there longer. The hitting instruction and experience there will be much more valuable to him in the long run. Hitting in Knight's stadium is a good way to get into bad habits. Joe would have had 5-15 more HR's last year had he played AA in a stadium the size of Comiskey...

Vsahajpal
01-23-2002, 04:56 PM
light
tower
power

RichH55
01-23-2002, 05:44 PM
I don't want to see Borchard right off...though I would like to see him up before the year is over....maybe All-Star break? The K's don't worry me as much as they would since he has shown he will take a walk...Lots of K's is bad if you refuse to walk

longshot7
01-23-2002, 06:02 PM
centerfield is a DEFENSIVE position. Singleton is great defensively. We have more than enough offense until Borchard is ready (I say 2003). The only reason Singleton and Clayton get so much crap is because the rest of the guys weren't hitting last April or May either. The importance of great defense up the middle cannot be overstated. Who cares what they hit?

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
centerfield is a DEFENSIVE position. Singleton is great defensively. We have more than enough offense until Borchard is ready (I say 2003). The only reason Singleton and Clayton get so much crap is because the rest of the guys weren't hitting last April or May either. The importance of great defense up the middle cannot be overstated. Who cares what they hit?

Shhh!!! Don't say stuff like that so loud around here!

RichH55
01-23-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
centerfield is a DEFENSIVE position. Singleton is great defensively. We have more than enough offense until Borchard is ready (I say 2003). The only reason Singleton and Clayton get so much crap is because the rest of the guys weren't hitting last April or May either. The importance of great defense up the middle cannot be overstated. Who cares what they hit?


I dont know...I dont think anyones D justifies a .100 average....and Royce takes some much more off the table than just not hitting...Royce I truly believe is a guy who would be addition by subtraction...and yes times have changed..you still do need D up the middle(especially at SS) but you have to have hitting there as well...two blackholes at CF and SS doesnt exactly help.....and for everyone who says we cant win a World Series with Jose at SS...riddle me this..who was the SS for the Diamondbacks last year?

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



who was the SS for the Diamondbacks last year?

Wasn't it Womack? Jeez, don't compare Valentin to Womack. It's like comparing diamonds to coal.

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
centerfield is a DEFENSIVE position. Singleton is great defensively. We have more than enough offense until Borchard is ready (I say 2003). The only reason Singleton and Clayton get so much crap is because the rest of the guys weren't hitting last April or May either. The importance of great defense up the middle cannot be overstated. Who cares what they hit?

I hate to bring up the Yankees again but I don't think it's a coincidence that their teams over the last few years that have beaten the crap out of everyone in sight have had offensive players at so called defensive positions. Jeter, Williams and Jorge Posada may be the 3 best offensive players on the team and they all play "defensive positions." It's allowed for them to get by very well despite mediocre production from Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius and and multitude of weak leftfielders. I'd love to see us get some offense from short and center with Borchard and Manos. It's easier to get production out of first, third, left, right than shortstop, so if you have a shortstop or a centerfielder who can hit you don't ahve to worry as much about your bats at the corners.

RichH55
01-23-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I hate to bring up the Yankees again but I don't think it's a coincidence that their teams over the last few years that have beaten the crap out of everyone in sight have had offensive players at so called defensive positions. Jeter, Williams and Jorge Posada may be the 3 best offensive players on the team and they all play "defensive positions." It's allowed for them to get by very well despite mediocre production from Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius and and multitude of weak leftfielders. I'd love to see us get some offense from short and center with Borchard and Manos. It's easier to get production out of first, third, left, right than shortstop, so if you have a shortstop or a centerfielder who can hit you don't ahve to worry as much about your bats at the corners.


Not to mention Womack was the Champs SS....I think it would hurt me to be a D-back fan and watch Womack every day...but its that old mentality that defense is king and thats why a Rey Sanchez is going to be a viable option for years.....the difference between an average fielder and a slightly above average one isnt tremendous....Ozzie Smith vs Womack most of our comparisons are not...they are more Clayton vs Valentine and people can legtimately debate the difference defensively there and come to totally different conclusions

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I hate to bring up the Yankees again but I don't think it's a coincidence that their teams over the last few years that have beaten the crap out of everyone in sight have had offensive players at so called defensive positions. Jeter, Williams and Jorge Posada may be the 3 best offensive players on the team and they all play "defensive positions." It's allowed for them to get by very well despite mediocre production from Tino Martinez, Scott Brosius and and multitude of weak leftfielders. I'd love to see us get some offense from short and center with Borchard and Manos. It's easier to get production out of first, third, left, right than shortstop, so if you have a shortstop or a centerfielder who can hit you don't ahve to worry as much about your bats at the corners.

Yes, it is a coincidence. The Yankees last season were a mediocre team in terms of offensive production. They won because they had some great pitching. You know that as well as I do.

czalgosz
01-23-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



Not to mention Womack was the Champs SS....I think it would hurt me to be a D-back fan and watch Womack every day...but its that old mentality that defense is king and thats why a Rey Sanchez is going to be a viable option for years.....the difference between an average fielder and a slightly above average one isnt tremendous....Ozzie Smith vs Womack most of our comparisons are not...they are more Clayton vs Valentine and people can legtimately debate the difference defensively there and come to totally different conclusions

But Womack wasn't even a good hitter. As a matter of fact, he's a terrible hitter as well as being a bad fielder. The Diamondbacks won despite Tony Womack, not because of him. That team was built for the postseason.

I wish people would stop using postseason performances to show how good a team is. Postseason performances determine who the champion is, not who has the better team.

If anyone out there honestly believes that the Yankees were a better team last year than the Mariners or the A's were, I'd like to hear from them.

Paulwny
01-23-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Jeter, Williams and Jorge Posada may be the 3 best offensive players on the team and they all play "defensive positions." so if you have a shortstop or a centerfielder who can hit you don't ahve to worry as much about your bats at the corners.

I hope you're not saying that Williams is weak defensively, he had a lot of ground to cover with Knoblauch in lf and O'Neill in rf.
It helps when 3 of your starting pitchers are #1's on most other teams.

Vsahajpal
01-23-2002, 06:41 PM
I'd like to see Borchard, Lee, and Ordonez in the outfield for selfish reasons mainly, but also because there isn't a better option. Borchard is certainly capable of playing an above average centerfield. He'll be plenty more productive than Ramirez, Rowand, or Singleton, and when you factor in the offense provided by Valentin, Thomas, and Konerko, along with the aforementioned trio of OF's, there isn't a better offense in baseball, IMO.

Having said that, what're the odds the Sox will go with Crede at 3b and Joe in CF?

Daver
01-23-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal


Having said that, what're the odds the Sox will go with Crede at 3b and Joe in CF?

None at all unless someone gets moved<<cough>>Roids Clayton<<cough>>or injured.

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


But Womack wasn't even a good hitter. As a matter of fact, he's a terrible hitter as well as being a bad fielder. The Diamondbacks won despite Tony Womack, not because of him. That team was built for the postseason.


Yeah Womack is pretty damn horrible at the plate.

To whoever asked I'm not saying Williams is a bad fielder, he's decent just that none of the Williams, Jeter, Posada trio are anywhere close to being defense first.

Paulwny
01-23-2002, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I understand what you're saying. If he put up numbers like that, I'd be happy. It's just that he struck out over 100 times against AA pitching, which is a lot different from striking out 100 times against major-league pitching. All those K's tell me he's not quite ready for the big-time yet.

Totally agree, not impressive.
Travis Fryman comes to AAA Buffalo to regain his swing. After 3wks. this career .275 hitter is batting >.320.
Charles Nagy comes to Buffalo on rehab to increase his arm strength. His first outing he gets bombed after that it's shut out inning after shut out inning. He 's called back by Cleveland and every game is batting practice for the other team.
If you're not batting .300 in the minors you won't bat .250 in the majors.

kermittheefrog
01-23-2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Totally agree, not impressive.
Travis Fryman comes to AAA Buffalo to regain his swing. After 3wks. this career .275 hitter is batting >.320.
Charles Nagy comes to Buffalo on rehab to increase his arm strength. His first outing he gets bombed after that it's shut out inning after shut out inning. He 's called back by Cleveland and every game is batting practice for the other team.
If you're not batting .300 in the minors you won't bat .250 in the majors.

That's an overstatement. There is a huge difference between prospects playing at a minor league level for the first time and a major league veteran in the minors.

Paulwny
01-23-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


That's an overstatement. There is a huge difference between prospects playing at a minor league level for the first time and a major league veteran in the minors.

If Nagy can pitch shut out innings in AAA, how many times will Borchard strike out when he faces a veteran ml pitcher who isn't washed up?

Randar68
01-24-2002, 01:27 AM
If Nagy can pitch shut out innings in AAA, how many times will Borchard strike out when he faces a veteran ml pitcher who isn't washed up?

Apples and oranges and you know it...

kermittheefrog
01-24-2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Apples and oranges and you know it...

Props to Randar for saying what I was thinking but couldn't relaly get out logically.

Paulwny
01-24-2002, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by Randar68


Apples and oranges and you know it...

I don't see Borchard making the team for a few years. If he strikes out > 100 times against AA pitchers, guys still learning to pitch, I feel he'll be eaten alive by ml pitchers.
I hope I'm wrong but, bringing a guy up too soon can destroy his confidence and career.

kermittheefrog
01-24-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I don't see Borchard making the team for a few years. If he strikes out > 100 times against AA pitchers, guys still learning to pitch, I feel he'll be eaten alive by ml pitchers.
I hope I'm wrong but, bringing a guy up too soon can destroy his confidence and career.

Nevermind that a lot of batters strike out 100+ times in the minors and still are successful in the majors, you see him up in a *few*years? When he's 25, 26 or so?

Paulwny
01-24-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Nevermind that a lot of batters strike out 100+ times in the minors and still are successful in the majors, you see him up in a *few*years? When he's 25, 26 or so?

One more year in the minors. I don't want a Russell Branyon type hitter.

Randar68
01-24-2002, 02:19 PM
Paulwny, what part of this don't you get? Striking out over 100 times isn't a big deal if you draw walks. Players like Rob Deer and Branyan never take walks, so they suck!

Thome is always among the league leaders in both walks and K's. Try telling me he isn't a good player/hitter...

This is an arguement you'll have a hard time winning. Look back at some of today's best power hitters and see how many K's they had in the minors in their last full year there....

It's called adjustment. Borchard has adjusted to AA pitching, and while he strikes out, he also has a .380+ OBP. He needs to see more advanced pitching so he can be accustomed to it. Repeating AA or playing Home Run Derby in Charlotte is not going to further his development. There is a reason why people move up in the systems as they have good seasons. Even with K's, you'll be hard pressed to tell me Borchard didn't have a GREAT season...

Champ Summers
01-24-2002, 02:57 PM
Frank Thomas is NOT among the leaders in strikeouts, the only time he has ever struck out more than 100 times was in '91, ironically the same year he posted his highest walk total.

Paulwny
01-24-2002, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
!
Thome is always among the league leaders in both walks and K's. Try telling me he isn't a good player/hitter...


Thome also had a batting ave in the minors that skirted .300. Whats Borchard's ave .275?

kermittheefrog
01-24-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Thome also had a batting ave in the minors that skirted .300. Whats Borchard's ave .275?

See I really hate that, you say all this about him having too many strikeouts and him not being ready when you don't come close to knowing all the facts because you don't even have an idea of what his batting average was. He hit .295 last year and the year before he hit .311 in 103 ABs.

Paulwny
01-24-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


See I really hate that, you say all this about him having too many strikeouts and him not being ready when you don't come close to knowing all the facts because you don't even have an idea of what his batting average was. He hit .295 last year and the year before he hit .311 in 103 ABs.

I'm mistaken, I thought I saw a post that said he batted .275. Sorry, with that type ba he deserves a shot. I need to read better.
Apologies to you and Randar for the needless postings.

hold2dibber
01-25-2002, 02:21 PM
Paulwnyl, you gave up too soon. Actually, I guess that depends on what you mean by giving him a shot. I would like to see how Borchard fairs against ML pitching in spring training before making any decision about whether he should start the season with the Sox. Also, none of us (or at least, certainly not me) have had the opportunity to watch Borchard enough to know if he's ready. How did he fair against the best pitchers in AA (i.e., are his stats the result of pounding the middle and lower ranks of AA pitching while getting shut down by the cream of the crop)? Are there any holes in his swing that major league pitchers would be able to consistently exploit? Is he mature? Is he dedicated? Does he have a huge ego? Is he willing to make adjustments and listen to instruction? I sure as hell don't know the answer to any of these questions. Based on what I do know, I certainly am optimistic that Joe Borchard is going to be a very good MLB player. What I can't say is whether he is ready for that now, or if he needs another year in the minors.

Randar68
01-25-2002, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Paulwnyl, you gave up too soon. Actually, I guess that depends on what you mean by giving him a shot. I would like to see how Borchard fairs against ML pitching in spring training before making any decision about whether he should start the season with the Sox. Also, none of us (or at least, certainly not me) have had the opportunity to watch Borchard enough to know if he's ready. How did he fair against the best pitchers in AA (i.e., are his stats the result of pounding the middle and lower ranks of AA pitching while getting shut down by the cream of the crop)? Are there any holes in his swing that major league pitchers would be able to consistently exploit? Is he mature? Is he dedicated? Does he have a huge ego? Is he willing to make adjustments and listen to instruction? I sure as hell don't know the answer to any of these questions. Based on what I do know, I certainly am optimistic that Joe Borchard is going to be a very good MLB player. What I can't say is whether he is ready for that now, or if he needs another year in the minors.

Joe hit the crap out of guys like Juan Cruz...

Paulwny
01-25-2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Paulwnyl, you gave up too soon. Actually, I guess that depends on what you mean by giving him a shot. I would like to see how Borchard fairs against ML pitching in spring training before making any decision about whether he should start the season with the Sox. Also, none of us (or at least, certainly not me) have had the opportunity to watch Borchard enough to know if he's ready. How did he fair against the best pitchers in AA (i.e., are his stats the result of pounding the middle and lower ranks of AA pitching while getting shut down by the cream of the crop)? Are there any holes in his swing that major league pitchers would be able to consistently exploit? Is he mature? Is he dedicated? Does he have a huge ego? Is he willing to make adjustments and listen to instruction? I sure as hell don't know the answer to any of these questions. Based on what I do know, I certainly am optimistic that Joe Borchard is going to be a very good MLB player. What I can't say is whether he is ready for that now, or if he needs another year in the minors.

Since his ba has been ~ .300 and not the .275 I assumed, I would give him a shot. I always expect a players ave to drop ~ .025 to .040 pts from his minor league ave in his first ml season. By the .275 ave I thought we'd be looking at another Russell Branyon.
Only the scouts, coaches, etc who see him every day know about holes in his swing, attitude, etc. All his numbers are good and my concern was the ba with the strike outs.
If I hadn't misread or thought that the ave was .275, I wouldn't have entered the discussion.
He's what, 24yrs. old? Time to take a good look.
I believe Frank came up from AA to the sox, but again maybe I misread that somhow.

czalgosz
01-25-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Since his ba has been ~ .300 and not the .275 I assumed, I would give him a shot. I always expect a players ave to drop ~ .025 to .040 pts from his minor league ave in his first ml season. By the .275 ave I thought we'd be looking at another Russell Branyon.
Only the scouts, coaches, etc who see him every day know about holes in his swing, attitude, etc. All his numbers are good and my concern was the ba with the strike outs.
If I hadn't misread or thought that the ave was .275, I wouldn't have entered the discussion.
He's what, 24yrs. old? Time to take a good look.
I believe Frank came up from AA to the sox, but again maybe I misread that somhow.

Frank Thomas did indeed skip AAA, but he came up at the end of the 2000 season for the final 2 months, instead of out of spring training. He almost skipped AA as well, but despite putting up an impressive Spring Training in 2000, the Sox went with a platoon of Greg Walker and Carlos Martinez over Thomas out of spring training, which even at 15 struck me as a little odd.

But Thomas was a much more polished hitter than Borchard is right now. Thomas walked a ton and hit over .330 at AA, as well as hitting tape-measure shots.

I don't think anyone is comparing Borchard to Thomas in terms of hitting ability, but it takes quite a hitter to skip a level in the minors. I'm not a scout, but I think Borchard would benefit from a little time at AAA (say 2-3 months).

fuzzy_patters
01-25-2002, 03:22 PM
For some reason I don't remember Greg Walker being with the Sox in 1990. The only guys I remember playing first that year were Martinez, Pasqua, Fisk, and Thomas. I could be wrong though.

Also, it shouldn't be a big surprise that Martinez opened the year at first. I'm pretty sure that 1989 was the year he tore it up hitting +.300.

czalgosz
01-25-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
For some reason I don't remember Greg Walker being with the Sox in 1990. The only guys I remember playing first that year were Martinez, Pasqua, Fisk, and Thomas. I could be wrong though.

Also, it shouldn't be a big surprise that Martinez opened the year at first. I'm pretty sure that 1989 was the year he tore it up hitting +.300.

Martinez's .300 was like Singleton's .300 ten years later - pretty hollow. The Sox knew that he wasn't a good enough hitter to be a first baseman, and his play at third made watching Jeff Liefer look like Brooks Robinson. The Sox knew he wasn't long for the team.

Walker did make the team in '90, and did about as much to help the team as Baines did in '01. Pasqua was not orginally intended to play first - he had practically no experience at it. He was supposed to help ease Sosa's transition in in right. But when it became patently obvious that the Sox had no better option at first, Pasqua started playing it pretty regularly.

Paulwny
01-25-2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Frank Thomas did indeed skip AAA, but he came up at the end of the 2000 season for the final 2 months, instead of out of spring training. He almost skipped AA as well, but despite putting up an impressive Spring Training in 2000, the Sox went with a platoon of Greg Walker and Carlos Martinez over Thomas out of spring training, which even at 15 struck me as a little odd.

But Thomas was a much more polished hitter than Borchard is right now. Thomas walked a ton and hit over .330 at AA, as well as hitting tape-measure shots.

I don't think anyone is comparing Borchard to Thomas in terms of hitting ability, but it takes quite a hitter to skip a level in the minors. I'm not a scout, but I think Borchard would benefit from a little time at AAA (say 2-3 months).

I think the sox brass thought Walker's illness was able to be controlled and we'd see the old Greg.
If Borchard isn't given a good look in st or the beginning of the season he might not get a shot this year at all. If we're in a tight div race JM may stay with what he has.

Jerry_Manuel
01-25-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Frank Thomas did indeed skip AAA, but he came up at the end of the 2000 season for the final 2 months, despite putting up an impressive Spring Training in 2000


:hurt
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