PDA

View Full Version : Ray Durham - why leadoff?


wulfy
01-22-2002, 06:17 PM
I think the Sox still have a huge hole, the leadoff position, that haven't been addressed this offseason.

What is the infatuation with Ray Durham?? He has some of the best speed in the game, yet he is a poor base-stealer. He rarely runs (33 attempts), and when he does he gets thrown out a third of the time --usually to kill a rally. Plus, his OBP his horrible (.337) for a leadoff hitter. He's not a very good defensive player, he'll make the spectacular play then boot a grounder with two men on.

Does Ray Durham have any trade value? Will moving him give Jose a better postion to play? Will it give Crede a shot at the lineup?

Are the Sox considering Roward or Singleton leading off this year at all? Rowand's OBP is about 50 points higher than RD's, granted in much fewer at bats.

FarWestChicago
01-22-2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by wulfy
I think the Sox still have a huge hole, the leadoff position, that haven't been addressed this offseason.It's tough to argue with this point. BTW, Welcome to WSI! :gulp:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
It's tough to argue with this point. BTW, Welcome to WSI! :gulp:

Oh sure, West! Go ahead and agree with him. Like all of us don't know exactly where you're coming from with all your "Fire Hydrant is Pure Guts" b.s.

We know you like the back of our own hand, LOL!

FarWestChicago
01-22-2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Oh sure, West! Go ahead and agree with him. Like all of us don't know exactly where you're coming from with all your "Fire Hydrant is Pure Guts" b.s.

We know you like the back of our own hand, LOL! I'm still wondering if they cancelled Dog Day because of complaints from The Fire Hydrant...

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I'm still wondering if they cancelled Dog Day because of complaints from The Fire Hydrant...

If Ray Durham drove a bus the way he plays second base...

"Hey Bussie, can't you go any faster? There's a dog pissing on one of your wheels!"

dougs78
01-22-2002, 07:11 PM
I just wish we could have Ray bat 7th....i do think hes a better leadoff hitter than he showed last year, but we can and should do better. With the team as is, I wouldn't mind seeing Ray leadof again with Rowand behind him. Then Frank, Maggs, PK, Lee, Valentin, Crede and Alomar.

with the hope that eventually we can move Rowand to the front and then let jose bat 2nd with ray 7th. Thats my best case scenario.

AsInWreck
01-22-2002, 07:21 PM
You're talking about one year here-ray in the past
was more along the lines of .370-.380- and i think he'll make a comeback- i'd rather see him batting
2nd in the order though, i must admit - it's ironic though you base this stat as reason to trade durham to put valentin at 2nd-his obp is regularly much lower than durham's-- as for his range and basestealing, he did drop off, largely due to problems w/ his hamstrings last year--i'm not making excuses, i hear ya, but there are plenty of 2b and leadoff hitters worse than ray and i think he'll perform better this year - the thing that pissed me off about ray last year was how he took strike 3 right down the middle w/ runners on and then argued like the pitch was 3 feet outside-- i don't know, maybe your right but i don;t think he's that easily replaced and i'd rather have him at 2nd than valentin

FarWestChicago
01-22-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
the thing that pissed me off about ray last year was how he took strike 3 right down the middle w/ runners on and then argued like the pitch was 3 feet outside--That was always frustrating. So was his delusional belief that he's a big time power hitter. But, the thing that pissed me off the most was the all too common lack of effort going for ground balls. The man is fast, yet slow, less talented second basemen have far more range. He usually didn't even bother faking a good effort like Buddy Lee. The hell with your fielding percentage. Let's see some effort! :angry:

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 07:38 PM
Ray Durham is an interesting study in what happens when a guy hits the weight room. Here is his OBP and SLG and SBs from every season since his rookie year -

1995 - OBP - .309 SLG - .384 SBs - 18
1996 - OBP - .350 SLG - .406 SBs - 30
1997 - OBP - .337 SLG - .382 SBs - 33
1998 - OBP - .363 SLG - .455 SBs - 36
1999 - OBP - .373 SLG - .435 SBs - 34
2000 - OBP - .361 SLG - .450 SBs - 25
2001 - OBP - .337 SLG - .466 SBs - 23

As you can see, 2001 was his best season to date in terms of power, but he's actually regressing in terms of getting on base. He's striking out over 100 times a season, he's basically slowly shutting down his running game, and he has horrible slumps throughout the season.

Ray Durham is a talented ballplayer, and a couple years ago I thought he was going to become one of the premier leadoff men in the league. But apparently he is taking hitting advice from Sammy Sosa, and is no longer concerned about getting on base.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 07:45 PM
Good points, Cz. Durham seems to be more interested in providing power than he is getting on base. The ugly truth is, there aren't too many good lead-off men in baseball these days. Weight training and fan infatuation with homeruns aren't likely to create many good ones anytime soon, either.

Also worth noting is how few quality secondbasemen there are these days. Compare the talent level of Durham and his piers with the game's top-flight shortstops. It's not even close.

:ray
"That's right. I'm irreplaceable. Now where are my homerun shoes?"

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Also worth noting is how few quality secondbasemen there are these days. Compare the talent level of Durham and his piers with the game's top-flight shortstops. It's not even close.



The best second baseman in the game right now is Alomar, hands down. But then, you're right, there's a huge dropoff after that. I hate to say it, but Durham's probably in the top 10. I can't name 10 guys who are better out there. If Hummell comes along like we expect him to, I think Durham would bring nice value in trade. Nellie Fox he ain't.

AsInWreck
01-22-2002, 07:59 PM
I never thought rayray was a leadoff hitter to begin w/-he always seemed like a 2nd hitter to me-
ray could put up some pretty good numbers hitting directly in front of frank or maggs if you ask me-
but he probably k's too much for that role-does any one have his career strikeout trends i don't remember him k'ing so much a few years ago

MisterB
01-22-2002, 08:05 PM
With Robbie Alomar headed to the NL and Bret Boone likely to return to his .260 - 20 HR - 70 RBI norm, Ray should be battling Alfonso Soriano for best offensive 2B in the AL. All the heavy-hitting 2B seem to be in the NL now.

FarWestChicago
01-22-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
With Robbie Alomar headed to the NL and Bret Boone likely to return to his .260 - 20 HR - 70 RBI norm, Ray should be battling Alfonso Soriano for best offensive 2B in the AL. All the heavy-hitting 2B seem to be in the NL now. Hey, another Bay Area guy. Welcome to WSI, MisterB! :gulp:

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
With Robbie Alomar headed to the NL and Bret Boone likely to return to his .260 - 20 HR - 70 RBI norm, Ray should be battling Alfonso Soriano for best offensive 2B in the AL. All the heavy-hitting 2B seem to be in the NL now.

Soriano sucks. There, I said it. I can sleep tonight.

pearso66
01-22-2002, 08:39 PM
id have to agree, ray does seem to go for the homerun a lot more often. i dont know how many times i saw him come up to bat in the first, and he'd fly out. I would like to see him try to beat out a couple grounders to the left side, try to find that hole between either 3rd and short, or short and 2nd

oldcomiskey
01-22-2002, 08:57 PM
the thing that always aggravated me about Ray Ray was all of the above--he has range but refuses to show it--he has speed--but refuses to steal a base or worse--gets thrown out..But the man has balls---remember the game last season when the ump blew the call

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
the thing that always aggravated me about Ray Ray was all of the above--he has range but refuses to show it--he has speed--but refuses to steal a base or worse--gets thrown out..But the man has balls---remember the game last season when the ump blew the call

Which game was that, OC? I recall Ray fussing a lot with the umpires over balls and strikes. Most of the time Ray just needed to sit down.

:ray
"I can't hit what I can't see!"

MattSharp
01-22-2002, 09:23 PM
I have to agree that Ray Durham is the worst leadoff hitter ever, as you may have noticed in my sig. His OBP and AVG are atrocious. He is not a great base stealer and he stirkes out a lot. I tihnk that he has good range in the field and has good speed for picking up triples and getting around the bases. He has fair power and I personally like his glove. I would love to keep him as long as he doesn't lead off. That's about all I have to say...

bc2k
01-22-2002, 09:28 PM
I notice some people on this site provide relavant, informative stats in a conversation. They are well appreciated by me. But why must some of you base your thesis on a 'hunch' or your 'feeling'. In this thread, someone said durham will be better in 2002 because i think he had an off year. WHAT!? Nevermind what the stats say, Joe Blow says he'll have one heck of a year.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
I have to agree that Ray Durham is the worst leadoff hitter ever, as you may have noticed in my sig. His OBP and AVG are atrocious. He is not a great base stealer and he stirkes out a lot. I tihnk that he has good range in the field and has good speed for picking up triples and getting around the bases. He has fair power and I personally like his glove. I would love to keep him as long as he doesn't lead off. That's about all I have to say...

Hey, I think Durham would make a great #7 hitter. In fact, he was a great #7 hitter back in '96/'97 when we still had Tony Phillips.

Speaking of Phillips, does that ancient website (Good Guys Wear Black?) still have a front page story about Phillips getting traded? Man, talk about not updating your website, LOL!

Daver
01-22-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Hey, I think Durham would make a great #7 hitter. In fact, he was a great #7 hitter back in '96/'97 when we still had Tony Phillips.

Speaking of Phillips, does that ancient website (Good Guys Wear Black?) still have a front page story about Phillips getting traded? Man, talk about not updating your website, LOL!

I think they updated to show Tony driving the :partybus

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by daver


I think they updated to show Tony driving the :partybus

LMAO!

I think we need a crazed-looking Tony Phillips tag. That way we can have Tony giving advice to Ray Durham on how to be a lead-off man.

You know, a Sox player portrait with spinners for eyes. Something like that.

It would be fun for making fun of fans in Milwaukee, too.

:gulp:

bc2k
01-22-2002, 09:54 PM
Alomar, Biggio, Boone, Vina, Kent, Walker, Vidro, Polanco, Jimenez, and even Eric Young had a better average and obp than durham last year. I could have listed more, but i'm tired of looking. Durham is not in the top 10 amoung 2b. I would even take Jerry Hairston Jr. of Baltimore over durham.

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Alomar, Biggio, Boone, Vina, Kent, Walker, Vidro, Polanco, Jimenez, and even Eric Young had a better average and obp than durham last year. I could have listed more, but i'm tired of looking. Durham is not in the top 10 amoung 2b. I would even take Jerry Hairston Jr. of Baltimore over durham.

Note that I didn't list Durham as one of the top-10 leadoff men. He is one of the top-ten second-basemen out there, though. If The Sox had offered Ray Durham for Placido Polanco, I think they would have a deal.

Iguana775
01-22-2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by wulfy
I think the Sox still have a huge hole, the leadoff position, that haven't been addressed this offseason.

What is the infatuation with Ray Durham?? He has some of the best speed in the game, yet he is a poor base-stealer. He rarely runs (33 attempts), and when he does he gets thrown out a third of the time --usually to kill a rally. Plus, his OBP his horrible (.337) for a leadoff hitter. He's not a very good defensive player, he'll make the spectacular play then boot a grounder with two men on.

Does Ray Durham have any trade value? Will moving him give Jose a better postion to play? Will it give Crede a shot at the lineup?

Are the Sox considering Roward or Singleton leading off this year at all? Rowand's OBP is about 50 points higher than RD's, granted in much fewer at bats.

hey wulfster!!! glad you made it the WSI party. :)

delben91
01-22-2002, 10:14 PM
:versatile

"I'm so versitile, I could bat leadoff and seventh at the same time!!!"

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 10:16 PM
You guys are being way to hard on Ray! Damn! Ray's OBP may have sucked last year but if you look around baseball the only guy who actually had a good year leading off was Ichiro. Think about the best leadoff men from 2000, Erstad, Damon, Luis Castillo. They all sucked major ass last year. Durham at least had a decent OBP and the best slugging percentage of his career. I think we can definitely live with Durham leading off and playing second because as I have pointed out on both fronts there aren't a lot of options out there.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
You guys are being way to hard on Ray! Damn! Ray's OBP may have sucked last year but if you look around baseball the only guy who actually had a good year leading off was Ichiro. Think about the best leadoff men from 2000, Erstad, Damon, Luis Castillo. They all sucked major ass last year. Durham at least had a decent OBP and the best slugging percentage of his career. I think we can definitely live with Durham leading off and playing second because as I have pointed out on both fronts there aren't a lot of options out there.

Oh sure, Kermit. Try and make a rational statement around here, will ya! Everyone knows you're a closet Tony Phillips fan. You were probably in County Stadium cheering him on as he beat the crap out of that drunk.

Damn, I miss Tony.

Daver
01-22-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

Damn, I miss Tony.

Well PHG you could always try jumping on the :partybus

bringbackrobin
01-22-2002, 10:52 PM
Did anybody see that game where it was raining and cold and Tony kept doing a little dance out at third base to keep warm? That was cool.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by daver


Well PHG you could always try jumping on the :partybus

Tony was good entertainment. As a Sox Fan, I've got to respect that. :cool:

Daver
01-22-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Tony was good entertainment. As a Sox Fan, I've got to respect that. :cool:

Ah yes a true Bill Veeck disciple,"at least make it entertaining!"


But then again what the hell do I know?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by daver
Ah yes a true Bill Veeck disciple,"at least make it entertaining!"


They ought to bring Phillips back for SoxFest. Dry him out and have him sit in a chair and sign autographs. I bet the guy could build quite a cult following. Sort of like Dick Allen.

I would love an autographed picture of him beating the crap out of that drunk in Milwaukee. Priceless.

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Oh sure, Kermit. Try and make a rational statement around here, will ya! Everyone knows you're a closet Tony Phillips fan. You were probably in County Stadium cheering him on as he beat the crap out of that drunk.

Damn, I miss Tony.

Closet Tony Phillips fan? Tony was like my favorite player when he played for the Sox. I was pissed as hell when they traded him.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Closet Tony Phillips fan? Tony was like my favorite player when he played for the Sox. I was pissed as hell when they traded him.

See. One more Sox Fan standing in line at SoxFest to get Tony Phillips' autograph. The guy is a cult hero.

We've got to get this guy to come back!

Iwritecode
01-22-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Good points, Cz. Durham seems to be more interested in providing power than he is getting on base. The ugly truth is, there aren't too many good lead-off men in baseball these days. Weight training and fan infatuation with homeruns aren't likely to create many good ones anytime soon, either.

I doubt that anyone here cares but if I were in the MLB I would want to be a lead-off man. When I played, I loved to get on base. Then stretch a single into a double by stealing on the very next pitch. It's kinda funny because I was one of the better homerun hitters on my team, not so much for my power but because of my speed. We played on fields with no homerun fences. So I would hit the ball over the centerfielder's head and get around the bases before he got it back into the infield. I'll admit that part of that was lack of talented opposing CF's too... :D:

As far as Ray goes, he's the best option this team has for a leadoff man right now and I don't really see any affordable improvments available right now. It had been mentioned before that as goes Ray, so goes the Sox. Usually when Ray has a bad day, the whole team has a bad day.

My favorite Ray memory though occured in a game against the Cubs in 2000. All I remember is that the score was tied and the game went to like the 14th inning. In one of the extra innings, the Sox had the shift on (I'm not sure of the batter). The ball was hit straight up the middle and I was sure that would lead to the Cubs scoring the winning run. Ray ranged far to his right, got the ball and made the third out to save the Sox that inning. I believe he also had the game-winning single in that game too. :smile:

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode



My favorite Ray memory though occured in a game against the Cubs in 2000. All I remember is that the score was tied and the game went to like the 14th inning. In one of the extra innings, the Sox had the shift on (I'm not sure of the batter). The ball was hit straight up the middle and I was sure that would lead to the Cubs scoring the winning run. Ray ranged far to his right, got the ball and made the third out to save the Sox that inning. I believe he also had the game-winning single in that game too. :smile:

I remember that game well. Durham got that hit right-handed, too - Baylor brought in a lefty to pitch to him.

:baylor

I'm playing the percentages. It's what good managers do!

I remember that game went from great to horrifying to great again. The Sox led the whole game until Sosa, who had struck out three times in the game to the joy of Sox fans everywhere, tied it in the ninth with a homer off Keith Foulke. I thought I was going to throw up. God, that was a game.

voodoochile
01-22-2002, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Tony was good entertainment. As a Sox Fan, I've got to respect that. :cool:

Yeah, now no one on the team knows where to get good crack anymore... That will definitely put a damper on the all night hooker parties after the Sox win the WS this year...

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode

My favorite Ray memory though occured in a game against the Cubs in 2000. All I remember is that the score was tied and the game went to like the 14th inning. In one of the extra innings, the Sox had the shift on (I'm not sure of the batter). The ball was hit straight up the middle and I was sure that would lead to the Cubs scoring the winning run. Ray ranged far to his right, got the ball and made the third out to save the Sox that inning. I believe he also had the game-winning single in that game too. :smile:

Really? I wasn't aware Ray Durham had ever successfully fielded a ball hit to his right. Do you have photographic proof? We might want to post that on the website.

:smile:

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


I doubt that anyone here cares but if I were in the MLB I would want to be a lead-off man. When I played, I loved to get on base. Then stretch a single into a double by stealing on the very next pitch. It's kinda funny because I was one of the better homerun hitters on my team, not so much for my power but because of my speed. We played on fields with no homerun fences. So I would hit the ball over the centerfielder's head and get around the bases before he got it back into the infield. I'll admit that part of that was lack of talented opposing CF's too... :D:

As far as Ray goes, he's the best option this team has for a leadoff man right now and I don't really see any affordable improvments available right now. It had been mentioned before that as goes Ray, so goes the Sox. Usually when Ray has a bad day, the whole team has a bad day.

My favorite Ray memory though occured in a game against the Cubs in 2000. All I remember is that the score was tied and the game went to like the 14th inning. In one of the extra innings, the Sox had the shift on (I'm not sure of the batter). The ball was hit straight up the middle and I was sure that would lead to the Cubs scoring the winning run. Ray ranged far to his right, got the ball and made the third out to save the Sox that inning. I believe he also had the game-winning single in that game too. :smile:

I was graet at getting on base. My coaches would always complain that I'm too passive at the plate because I was really selective. I miss playing baseball and I've only been not playing for liek 2 years. I remember one time in little league a kid called me a peanuthead so I promised him I'd hit a home run in my next at bat. Then I actually did hit a home run in my next at bat so after the game I told him "I told ya so" and he threatened to kick my ass. Ah those were the days. :cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I remember that game went from great to horrifying to great again. The Sox led the whole game until Sosa, who had struck out three times in the game to the joy of Sox fans everywhere, tied it in the ninth with a homer off Keith Foulke. I thought I was going to throw up. God, that was a game.

June, 2000. Fourteen innings. Jesus Pena got the win. Damn, I was sure Manuel was going to blow it when he brought that screwball in from the bullpen, but he won the game. It might have been the highlight of his entire career. Now that I think about it, I'm sure it was!

voodoochile
01-22-2002, 11:35 PM
As far as Ray goes, he's the best option this team has for a leadoff man right now and I don't really see any affordable improvments available right now. It had been mentioned before that as goes Ray, so goes the Sox. Usually when Ray has a bad day, the whole team has a bad day.

This is the number one reason NOT to trade Ray, IMO. How well will he be playing for the Sox if he is no longer on the team?

Keep Ray. How come in all the hoopla about his terrible year in 2001, no one mentions that he was bounced around like a pinball in the lineup. Tough to figure out what to do when you are bouncing between leadoff (get on base) and 3rd (drive in runs) all the time. Ray also lost his two closest friends on the team last year in Frank (to injury in May) and JB (to trade in July). I know players are supposed to rise above that emotional stuff, but maybe we should cut the guy some slack and see how he does this year with the return of Frank and him getting the chance to settle back into his familiar role as lead-off hitter.

Bet no one on the team took last season as hard as Ray did. He deserves a chance to prove himself after the way he has played for the Sox through the years.

Iwritecode
01-22-2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Really? I wasn't aware Ray Durham had ever successfully fielded a ball hit to his right. Do you have photographic proof? We might want to post that on the website.

:smile:

Yea, I wondered if anyone would catch that. I would be a rich man if I had that photo...

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 11:39 PM
One reason I knew 2000 was a special year is because early in the season I saw Durham field a few balls hit to his right. I sat back and said to myself "This year is clearly not going to be normal."

PaleHoseGeorge
01-22-2002, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
June, 2000. Fourteen innings. Jesus Pena got the win. Damn, I was sure Manuel was going to blow it when he brought that screwball in from the bullpen, but he won the game. It might have been the highlight of his entire career. Now that I think about it, I'm sure it was!

Well, guess who found WSI's Totally Biased Game Recap from that night!

Sox Win. Losers Lose (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/2000champions/TBGR0609.htm)

Ah, those were the days!

kermittheefrog
01-22-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Well, guess who found WSI's Totally Biased Game Recap from that night!

Sox Win. Losers Lose (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/2000champions/TBGR0609.htm)

Ah, those were the days!

I just realized I'm there for all the exciting Sox/Cubs games. I was at that one, the one in Wrigley where Magglio got robbed of a game winning hit by the ivy and the one last year when Caballo had the game winning homer. I the one at Wrigley was pretty funny, I was like 14 and there with my mom. All the Sox fans were chanting "bull****" so I asked my mom if I could too and she gave me permission :smile:

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I just realized I'm there for all the exciting Sox/Cubs games. I was at that one, the one in Wrigley where Magglio got robbed of a game winning hit by the ivy and the one last year when Caballo had the game winning homer. I the one at Wrigley was pretty funny, I was like 14 and there with my mom. All the Sox fans were chanting "bull****" so I asked my mom if I could too and she gave me permission :smile:

The only memorable game I personally witnessed the past two seasons is the one in April of 2000 at Oakland where Valentin made four errors. Pretty exciting, huh?

Iwritecode
01-22-2002, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Well, guess who found WSI's Totally Biased Game Recap from that night!

Sox Win. Losers Lose (http://whitesoxinteractive.com/2000champions/TBGR0609.htm)

Ah, those were the days!

I thought about searching for it buy my comp is too damn slow. Thanks FFB.

I like this part: "Lots of hand wringing about Jose Valentin's eighth inning error, but that amounted to absolutely nothing. He took Cubs "ace" Jon Lieber downtown in the seventh inning,"

I remember coming to that exact same decision last year. :smile:

Iwritecode
01-22-2002, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
The only memorable game I personally witnessed the past two seasons is the one in April of 2000 at Oakland where Valentin made four errors. Pretty exciting, huh?

Hey, they won didn't they? What are you complaining about?

My record is like 1 - 4 at Sox games. 3 of the losses came at the hands of the Cubs. Although the one win was the last home game last year. Then I watched the Astros beat the Cubs that night. That helps a little. :smile:

czalgosz
01-22-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Hey, they won didn't they? What are you complaining about?

My record is like 1 - 4 at Sox games. 3 of the losses came at the hands of the Cubs. Although the one win was the last home game last year. Then I watched the Astros beat the Cubs that night. That helps a little. :smile:

Yes, the Sox did win that game. I remember Frank Thomas hit one off his shoetops over the left-field wall. I remember thinking at that point that he was going to have a great year.

I went back in 2000 for a game in August and watched Tim Hudson one-hit the Sox for a complete-game shutout.

I didn't go to the Coliseum this - the Sox only came into town once, in May, and I didn't want to watch them get trounced (which they did).

MikeKreevich
01-23-2002, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Really? I wasn't aware Ray Durham had ever successfully fielded a ball hit to his right. Do you have photographic proof? We might want to post that on the website.

Even a blind squirrel will find a nut occasionally.
Anyone know Ray's O.B.P. in the first inning last year.
It had to be really low.

Kilroy
01-23-2002, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I remember that game well. Durham got that hit right-handed, too - Baylor brought in a lefty to pitch to him.


I was at that game. First row, upper tank, directly behind the plate. It was awesome. Going from excited, to so disgusted I coulda puked (when Sosa homered off of Foulke), to pure joy was quite a ride. The walk down the ramps that nite was great because Sox fans were fired up and makin noise.

BTW, add me to the Tony Phillips fan club. I loved the guy when he was on the Sox.

RichH55
01-23-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


I was at that game. First row, upper tank, directly behind the plate. It was awesome. Going from excited, to so disgusted I coulda puked (when Sosa homered off of Foulke), to pure joy was quite a ride. The walk down the ramps that nite was great because Sox fans were fired up and makin noise.

BTW, add me to the Tony Phillips fan club. I loved the guy when he was on the Sox.

There is a Tony Phillips fan club? I guess it consists of the fans out there he hasn't tried to punch out

wulfy
01-23-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
I never thought rayray was a leadoff hitter to begin w/-he always seemed like a 2nd hitter to me-
ray could put up some pretty good numbers hitting directly in front of frank or maggs if you ask me-
but he probably k's too much for that role-does any one have his career strikeout trends i don't remember him k'ing so much a few years ago

That's the key to him hitting second ... he strikes out an awful lot with runners on base and he doesn't "handle the bat" all that well.

Maybe I'm underestimating his skills as a hitter, but can he hit the ball to the right side of the infield an advance a runner consistently?

Randar68
01-23-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I hate to say it, but Durham's probably in the top 10. I can't name 10 guys who are better out there. If Hummell comes along like we expect him to, I think Durham would bring nice value in trade. Nellie Fox he ain't.

The Best thing that could happen to the Sox is for Durham to have an All-Star season this year. Hummel will be your 2003 opening day 2nd baseman and, IMO, is a prototypical #2 hitter. Durham will be able to bring you some considerable value in return, maybe with a small package, and you may be able to restock your CF, SS, C, or leadoff holes for the future....

I used to like Ray, but the regression over the last 2-3 years has turned me off to his potential to help this team in the future....

Great players adapt their games to the needs of the team and to help the Team win. Ray Durham adapts his game to whatever he thinks will make him more money....power....

RichH55
01-23-2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


The Best thing that could happen to the Sox is for Durham to have an All-Star season this year. Hummel will be your 2003 opening day 2nd baseman and, IMO, is a prototypical #2 hitter. Durham will be able to bring you some considerable value in return, maybe with a small package, and you may be able to restock your CF, SS, C, or leadoff holes for the future....

I used to like Ray, but the regression over the last 2-3 years has turned me off to his potential to help this team in the future....

Great players adapt their games to the needs of the team and to help the Team win. Ray Durham adapts his game to whatever he thinks will make him more money....power....

If Hummel coems along as we hope as does turn into that #2 hitter...who leads off? Enough pressure on Hummel next year without trying to turn him into a lead-off hitter as well

oldcomiskey
01-23-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Which game was that, OC? I recall Ray fussing a lot with the umpires over balls and strikes. Most of the time Ray just needed to sit down.

:ray
"I can't hit what I can't see!"

There was a game last last season in which Ray Ray hit a ball down the line in which the ump called foul---the ball clearly hit the line and Ray did his best imitation of George Brett--until Manos tackled him