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TornLabrum
04-14-2006, 08:56 AM
You know, I was just thinking about a reply I made to Hangar a few minutes ago regarding the mythology of the Cubs and how Tribune propaganda is being foisted on the Chicago public in the guise of "reporting."

My general response is that Sox fans really shouldn't give a **** about what the Tribune has to say. After all, we know their motives, whether those motives be conscious or unconscious. We know that their former ombudsman as much as flat out admitted those motives in his caveat emptor column.

Those of us who frequent this web site are dyed-in-the-wool Sox fans. Most of us have been that all our lives. I represent the minority who had a secondary rooting interest in the Cubs, mostly because I grew up 60 miles from Chicago watching the same announcing team cover both teams on TV, and I did keep that interest until the early '90s. But then I made the decision that Jerry Reinsdorf was more committed to winning than any faceless corporation could be.

I admit I struggled with the aftermath decision following the White Flag Trade (TM) and again when the Cubs looked as if they were going to make it to the World Series in 2003, but I stuck it out and was rewarded.

Now the Sox are reaping the rewards of winning. Attendance rose from 1.9 million in 2003 and 2004 to 2.3 million last year. This year that many tickets were sold before the season even started. We know that not all of these people are lifelong Sox fans like us.

That leads me to what I have to say about some recurring threads on these message boards. There are really two points I'd like to make:

1) We won it all. They didn't. Their fans are jealous. They're going to say stupid things to try to get our goat. But we have the trophy and they don't. So who cares anything about what Cubs fans have to say?

2) The Tribune has made a habit of using positive language towards anything Cubs and ambiguous language at best towards anything White Sox. Some are concerned that this rubs off on the casual fans who might otherwise grow to know and love the Sox. The idea, I guess, is that these people are negatively influenced by Cubune propaganda. On the other hand, though, Sox fans consider themselves to be the most intelligent in baseball. They certainly pride themselves on being able to see through the Tribune's negative propaganda. So someone please answer this question for me. Is there anyone here who really wants to rub elbows with people who would be negatively influenced by this obvious propaganda? I certainly wouldn't.

And that in a nutshell is why Flubsession and Tribsession bugs me.

peeonwrigley
04-14-2006, 09:09 AM
2) The Tribune has made a habit of using positive language towards anything Cubs and ambiguous language at best towards anything White Sox. Some are concerned that this rubs off on the casual fans who might otherwise grow to know and love the Sox. The idea, I guess, is that these people are negatively influenced by Cubune propaganda. On the other hand, though, Sox fans consider themselves to be the most intelligent in baseball. They certainly pride themselves on being able to see through the Tribune's negative propaganda. So someone please answer this question for me. Is there anyone here who really wants to rub elbows with people who would be negatively influenced by this obvious propaganda? I certainly wouldn't.


I think the argument in the other direction is that the casual fan brings money which will ultimately improve the product on the field. There's no arguing with the offseason the Sox just had. Konerko, Garland, and Contreras all received BIG TIME money from the Sox.

I don't know offhand what the payroll is, but I know its up significantly. If it means quite a few more dopes at the ballpark to support a $20M spike in payroll, then frankly I'm all for it.

My overall point is that if the casual fan is influenced to believe all the Trib reinforced stereotypes that have been discussed ad nauseum, he's more likely to take his family of four and his $200/game up north. That money definitely could have helped our team in past seasons. Sure, we'd like to think we don't want anyone who can be so easily influenced as one of ours. But, lots of people don't put the same amount of time and passion into following sports (specifically Chicago baseball in this instance) as those of us that post here. Can't really blame them for it.

daveeym
04-14-2006, 09:22 AM
You also have to look at the upcoming fan bases. I was always a chicago fan that leaned towards the Sox. Because they always fielded competitive teams and I attended more Sox games as a kid. In college and law school we went to Wrigley to drink. It was during law school as I got older and had to deal with my own run-ins with Stupid Cub Fan #1-2000 that I said **** it, you're all pathetic losers except for the 5 of you that know baseball.

However, for those kids that are very into baseball they devour the sports pages on both local teams, get SI, ESPNMagazine, Baseball Digest, etc. I remember as a kid riding up to the convenience store everyday to get the short lived sports newspaper in the late 80's early 90's and reading it front to back and looking at every box score. I'm blanking on the name of it right now though. I never even thought of the papers being biased and was too young to care. But I guarentee it rubbed off on me.

TornLabrum
04-14-2006, 09:23 AM
I think the argument in the other direction is that the casual fan brings money which will ultimately improve the product on the field. There's no arguing with the offseason the Sox just had. Konerko, Garland, and Contreras all received BIG TIME money from the Sox.

I don't know offhand what the payroll is, but I know its up significantly. If it means quite a few more dopes at the ballpark to support a $20M spike in payroll, then frankly I'm all for it.

My overall point is that if the casual fan is influenced to believe all the Trib reinforced stereotypes that have been discussed ad nauseum, he's more likely to take his family of four and his $200/game up north. That money definitely could have helped our team in past seasons. Sure, we'd like to think we don't want anyone who can be so easily influenced as one of ours. But, lots of people don't put the same amount of time and passion into following sports (specifically Chicago baseball in this instance) as those of us that post here. Can't really blame them for it.

Okay, let's put it this way: If after the Sox win it all, they still listen to the Tribune propaganda machine, then they're never going to be influenced anyway.

No, I don't mind picking up casual fans. And I certainly don't want this to become a ****housed attendance thread. The point I'm making is that we sold 2.3 million seats even with the Tribune propaganda. Look at the discussions here recently about their biased reporting. Yet there are discussions on the Cubs' own flagship station about Chicago becoming a Sox town! I stumbled on one for a minute or so this morning. The fallback position was that the Cubs got a rating of 4-point-something, while the Sox got a rating of 1-point-something on TV yesterday. (I assume the Cubs were on WGN and the Sox on cable, but that was conveniently not mentioned.)

People love winners. If the Sox keep winning, people will start ignoring the Tribune. Some people are diehard fans. They'll never come over. Casual fans already have. If the Sox keep winning, more will come. Only the terminally stupid continue to back a loser when there is a winner in town.

ws05champs
04-14-2006, 09:38 AM
As loyal Sox fans we must be concerned about the propaganda the media spews. Propaganda is used because it is effective. If the Tribune isn't challenged, then potential future Sox fans will be blinded by what they say. We will have another situation on our hands where the Cubs get all the revenue, and the Sox ownership will have to struggle to put a team on the field that Sox fans will pay to see.

TornLabrum
04-14-2006, 09:42 AM
As loyal Sox fans we must be concerned about the propaganda the media spews. Propaganda is used because it is effective. If the Tribune isn't challenged, then potential future Sox fans will be blinded by what they say. We will have another situation on our hands where the Cubs get all the revenue, and the Sox ownership will have to struggle to put a team on the field that Sox fans will pay to see.

Bullfeathers! As long as the Sox keep winning, the fans will come. When the Sox turn bad, they will disappear. That's the way it's been for decades.

itsnotrequired
04-14-2006, 09:44 AM
Bullfeathers! As long as the Sox keep winning, the fans will come. When the Sox turn bad, they will disappear. That's the way it's been for decades.

But it will be different this time!

Ol' No. 2
04-14-2006, 09:44 AM
I'm with Hal. Most people aren't morons. When neither team had won anything in anyone's memory, the Tribune propaganda worked. You can sell **** sandwiches only as long as there's no better alternative. But they can't spin away a World Series trophy no matter how hard they try. The few weak-minded individuals who fall for this crap can stay on the north side.

Chicken Dinner
04-14-2006, 10:03 AM
The Cub microbashing threads that get posted on this board are childish.

Everyone complains about the Cubune but it appears they read it.

Everyone complains about Wrigley but they still go there. Then when they get back, before their car engine is even cooled off in the garage their posting their experience on this board. Who cares.

White Sox fans are supposed to be knowledgable baseball fans. Disliking the Cubs is part of that. But give it a break people. Microbashing every little thing is not what a true Sox fan is about.

PaulDrake
04-14-2006, 10:08 AM
Those of us who frequent this web site are dyed-in-the-wool Sox fans. Most of us have been that all our lives. I represent the minority who had a secondary rooting interest in the Cubs, mostly because I grew up 60 miles from Chicago watching the same announcing team cover both teams on TV, and I did keep that interest until the early '90s. But then I made the decision that Jerry Reinsdorf was more committed to winning than any faceless corporation could be.

It was a totally different time and place when we were kids. The rivalry was more friendly than it was intense, and many more sports fans called themselves "Chicago fans" then they do today. Now, everything in life is more polarized; politics, sports, religion or whatever. Interleague play increases the hostility level too. For a long time it was OK by me if the cubs did well as long as the Sox were good too. That started in the Durocher era but ended after the cubs won their division title in 84. There had been a seismic shift in press coverage, and suddenly the adorable ones were the darlings of all the Chicago media. I remember a popular radio program in the 80s, The Sports Writers featuring Chuck Swirsky that was loathe to even mention the Sox. In my lifetime I saw the Stockyards, steel mills, dozens of factories and shops, hundreds of thousands of middle class residents and the Chicago Cardinals leave the south side. In that vein the events of 1988 really traumatized me, and I'll never be a big fan of Reinsdorf because of it. After that for me it was about survival. No way did I ever assume Chicago would always be a two team baseball city, and I knew which one would stay if it ever came to that. Sorry for the rant, but at this point the cubs and all their syncophants locally and nationally really get on my nerves. The Chicago White Sox and their fans really are the unwanted step children of American professional sports.

Iwritecode
04-14-2006, 10:15 AM
I'm with Hal. Most people aren't morons. When neither team had won anything in anyone's memory, the Tribune propaganda worked. You can sell **** sandwiches only as long as there's no better alternative. But they can't spin away a World Series trophy no matter how hard they try. The few weak-minded individuals who fall for this crap can stay on the north side.

Actually I believe there are a lot more morons out there than we think. :wink:

Something not mentioned is the fact that a lot of other media outlets pick up on what the Tribune writes and then repeat the same information. I can't count how many times I've heard stories about an out-of-towner coming to the park to watch the Sox play their team and are genuinly suprised that all Sox fans are not shirtless, drunk, tatoo-wearing thugs and that the neighborhood around US Cellular isn't a war zone with constant rioting with no police presence.

Gee, I wonder where they could've gotten those ideas from? :rolleyes:

spiffie
04-14-2006, 10:28 AM
I worry about Trib propaganda not so much for those of us who are born into multi-dimensional Sox fan families, but rather for those for whom Chicago is a new home. Those people who want to come see a couple of baseball games a year, pick a team to root for, maybe not spend every waking minute thinking about baseball but like to go see a few games, eat a hot dog, drink a beer and enjoy themselves.

For instance my roommate moved to Chicago from Florida 2 years ago. She's not unknowledgable about baseball. She goes to games to enjoy the games, knows what's happening on the field, but doesn't obsess on a daily basis about whether Brian Anderson runs good routes in CF. She's a typical 23 year old in most regards. So when she came to Chicago, and she got fed a steady diet of the Trib propaganda/Cub fan BS about how wonderful Wrigley is and how glorious the Shrine is, and of course how nasty and foul USCF and their gutter-dwelling fans are, she had no reason not to believe it somewhat. I mean, the city's biggest, most respected newspaper pretty much confirms that view.

So for a year she went to Cubs games, feeling frustrated, but not knowing much about Chicago she didn't really feel she had a good alternative. I mean, the media made it pretty clear that no one goes to Sox games, and if you do go down into the wastelands south of Jackson Blvd. that you will end up raped and murdered in Armour Park. So she sat through Cub games, hating the folks around her who just didn't understand a damn thing about baseball.

Finally after many months I was able to do my work spreading the gospel and bring her to USCF. She was shocked. People are at the games. The atmosphere isn't hostile and angry and full of toothless drug addicts beating umpires. The conversion was happening. But only because she moved in with me and was subjected to my Sox obsession and willingness to bring her along.

How many thousands, tens of thousands of people like that pour through the Chicago area? Well-meaning folks who are being led astray by the Trib and the Cub sheep bleating about the Wrigley Experience. Folks who move here from other cities and are brainwashed into bringing their families to Wrigley because it's an "experience everyone should have in their life."

I think the rivalry has been blown horribly out of proportion, but then most things in this modern world, especially as relates to sports, tend to be that way. I enjoy the friendly poking fun back and forth with Cub fans who know their stuff (and they do exist). But the constant smearing of an entire fanbase, mocking us for sociological, economic, physiological, and cultural reasons, basically calling us lowbrow, second-class citizens does have an effect. It has lowered the level and raised the volume of the argument between the two teams and made it very personal. And it has cost the Sox fans. People who don't have the benefit of decades of tradition to lead them to this team. People who are not bad folks to have around, and who would be fine to sit next to at a ball game, but who don't know any better for so many reasons.

I can live without the constant need to point out every dumb Cub fan in the city. Yes, we know there's millions of them. I kind of enjoy reading the stories, but I like anything telling stories of dealing with idiots. But I can see why others tire of it. But when a giant multimedia conglomerate seems to have as a corporate strategy the systematic denigration of the Sox and their fan base, and is engaged in a constant effort to mislead the public and abuse their position as "journalists", I feel like someone does need to speak out about that sort of thing, and I'm glad we've been loud enough thus far to at least get their attention.

Ol' No. 2
04-14-2006, 10:29 AM
Actually I believe there are a lot more morons out there than we think. :wink:

Something not mentioned is the fact that a lot of other media outlets pick up on what the Tribune writes and then repeat the same information. I can't count how many times I've heard stories about an out-of-towner coming to the park to watch the Sox play their team and are genuinly suprised that all Sox fans are not shirtless, drunk, tatoo-wearing thugs and that the neighborhood around US Cellular isn't a war zone with constant rioting with no police presence.

Gee, I wonder where they could've gotten those ideas from? :rolleyes:News media pick up on the sensational, and clowns like Ligue are like manna from heaven for them. Uninformed people are easy to sway, and why would people in other cities be any more informed about what goes on in Chicago than Chicagoans are about what goes on in other cities? Stereotypes persist only until people find out the truth for themselves. With a lot more people paying attention to the Sox, that will take care of itself.

While we regularly bash the Tribune for being biased toward the Cubs, it's also apparent that other news media are also biased. Why? They don't own the Cubs. But I believe there's a perception that more of "the right" people are Cubs fans and those are the people advertisers covet. Hence, news media slant that way to attract advertising dollars. The pendelum has begun to shift, and once it does, (and given that the Cubs look to be as hapless as ever), the tide will turn. Just look around at the number of people in the suburbs wearing Sox gear lately.

Hangar18
04-14-2006, 10:32 AM
SOX fans are lashing back. Sox fans making fun of cub fans is done because its true and factual. They ARENT the best fans in the world.
They ARENT the smartest fans in the world. When I travel, and someone says "I heard you guys dont even go to your park" or "I heard their fans are pretty loyal", I have to take time to explain why this isnt true.

For every 10 times the Trib and SunTimes try to print that their fans are the smartest, I'll post here that many times proving otherwise. Theyre not going to tell you .......
I have a Dodger fan co-worker, who "believed" all of that, til I told him time after time just how dumb those fans, are and now believes me, seeing first hand. He wouldnt have read in the trib about that. It hurt the SOX big time that the SOX ignored the negative press, the backhanded compliments and the small number of stories given to us. It hurt bigtime financially.
So when that team goes on an extended losing streak, its no wonder that I smile from ear to ear with GLEE

cheeses_h_rice
04-14-2006, 10:38 AM
The Cub microbashing threads that get posted on this board are childish.

Everyone complains about the Cubune but it appears they read it.

Everyone complains about Wrigley but they still go there. Then when they get back, before their car engine is even cooled off in the garage their posting their experience on this board. Who cares.

White Sox fans are supposed to be knowledgable baseball fans. Disliking the Cubs is part of that. But give it a break people. Microbashing every little thing is not what a true Sox fan is about.

Point taken.

But unless you live in or near the city and get a lot of the Kubbie Blue Sunshine crap thrown in your face on a daily basis, I don't think you can fully appreciate what it is "we" are up against.

I'll just say this: this year, so far, I'm noticing a lot more Kubbie stuff/hats/etc. out in full force than I did at all last year. Their 5-3 start has really got a lot of people's airs up. Deflating those airs via the stories posted on WTS provides some great humor (and much needed catharsis for some of us). That's all.

daveeym
04-14-2006, 10:42 AM
It hurt the SOX big time that the SOX ignored the negative press, the backhanded compliments and the small number of stories given to us. I think that is pretty telling since part of what Kenny and Brooks are doing is directly going after the media and pushing for more press. Now they don't get too snippy about it and aren't going the tinfoil hat route (no offense Hangar :wink: ) but even they have acknowledged it and they got pretty testy about it at times last year.

Hangar18
04-14-2006, 10:48 AM
I think that is pretty telling since part of what Kenny and Brooks are doing is directly going after the media and pushing for more press. Now they don't get too snippy about it and aren't going the tinfoil hat route (no offense Hangar :wink: ) but even they have acknowledged it and they got pretty testy about it at times last year.

Who here didnt think it was crazy it was to hear pointed comments from Kenny regarding the lack of media attention. To hear Ozzie "now there are alot of you guys here" (talking about extra reporters in September, after it appeared the SOX were heading to the playoffs), or Carl Everett "Shut up. All of y'all, shut yo' mouths" (on what the sox wanted to say to the media now that they won, and the lack of attention they got in chicago)
Jack McDowell "people say its a cubs town"

TornLabrum
04-14-2006, 10:52 AM
I think that is pretty telling since part of what Kenny and Brooks are doing is directly going after the media and pushing for more press. Now they don't get too snippy about it and aren't going the tinfoil hat route (no offense Hangar :wink: ) but even they have acknowledged it and they got pretty testy about it at times last year.

And both have said exactly what Jerry Reinsdorf has been saying for years. To change perceptions the Sox have to win. Guess what's happening now. My problem is that so many people here can't see the migration because there are still lemmings left.

Look, most people are like the gal I remember from Joker's Wild back about 25 years or so ago. When the host said, "I see you're into Disco music," her reply was, "Oh, I was, but now I'm really getting into country and western."

For those of you who are not familiar with the times, disco got picked up by the fad followers with "Saturday Night Fever." But by 1980, John Travolta had made "Urban Cowboy" which had a huge emphasis on C&W, and the fad followers went there.

The people who go to Wrigley are those who want to be trendy. Fads and trends come and go, but winning is always in fashion, and no amount of Tribune Co. spin can gloss over that fact. Reinsdorf knows that. Williams knows that. Boyer knows that.

FarWestChicago
04-14-2006, 10:53 AM
The Cub microbashing threads that get posted on this board are childish.You got that right. And they are living up the the stereotype of a "Sox fan". It's just totally embarrassing. :(:

MUsoxfan
04-14-2006, 10:57 AM
You got that right. And they are living up the the stereotype of a "Sox fan". It's just totally embarrassing. :(:

But West, you're in "What's the Score". If you don't want to see Cubsession, just stay out of here.

I love how some have that to justify the fact they're walking stereotypes

Hawkeroo1980
04-14-2006, 10:59 AM
You know, I was just thinking about a reply I made to Hangar a few minutes ago regarding the mythology of the Cubs and how Tribune propaganda is being foisted on the Chicago public in the guise of "reporting."

My general response is that Sox fans really shouldn't give a **** about what the Tribune has to say. After all, we know their motives, whether those motives be conscious or unconscious. We know that their former ombudsman as much as flat out admitted those motives in his caveat emptor column.

Those of us who frequent this web site are dyed-in-the-wool Sox fans. Most of us have been that all our lives. I represent the minority who had a secondary rooting interest in the Cubs, mostly because I grew up 60 miles from Chicago watching the same announcing team cover both teams on TV, and I did keep that interest until the early '90s. But then I made the decision that Jerry Reinsdorf was more committed to winning than any faceless corporation could be.

I admit I struggled with the aftermath decision following the White Flag Trade (TM) and again when the Cubs looked as if they were going to make it to the World Series in 2003, but I stuck it out and was rewarded.

Now the Sox are reaping the rewards of winning. Attendance rose from 1.9 million in 2003 and 2004 to 2.3 million last year. This year that many tickets were sold before the season even started. We know that not all of these people are lifelong Sox fans like us.

That leads me to what I have to say about some recurring threads on these message boards. There are really two points I'd like to make:

1) We won it all. They didn't. Their fans are jealous. They're going to say stupid things to try to get our goat. But we have the trophy and they don't. So who cares anything about what Cubs fans have to say?

2) The Tribune has made a habit of using positive language towards anything Cubs and ambiguous language at best towards anything White Sox. Some are concerned that this rubs off on the casual fans who might otherwise grow to know and love the Sox. The idea, I guess, is that these people are negatively influenced by Cubune propaganda. On the other hand, though, Sox fans consider themselves to be the most intelligent in baseball. They certainly pride themselves on being able to see through the Tribune's negative propaganda. So someone please answer this question for me. Is there anyone here who really wants to rub elbows with people who would be negatively influenced by this obvious propaganda? I certainly wouldn't.

And that in a nutshell is why Flubsession and Tribsession bugs me.


I agree completely. The only issue is this (and its a pretty simple one...)

While I don't want to rub elbow with these casual fans that are being turned off by the negative tribuneese....there is still a matter of respect.

They won the series, and won it for THE THIRD LARGEST MARKET IN THE NATION. The fact that a major publication still cunningly takes a dump on them once in a while is straight up embarassing. I never cared what Cub fans thought.....but one thing that burns my ass is the questions from out-of-towners about who is more popular or more vaunted. The answer is the Cubs.

Honestly.....thats embarassing because it portrays Chicago as being somewhat ignorant. Any other major city wins the WS and that team is on cloud 9 for at least 5 years with no other competition.

Granted, the Sox have pretty damn good attendence figures---especially for a team that shares a city with another team. But because of one major periodical.......the cubbie fever still rides above the Sox. Pitiful, just pitiful

Albeit.....I still love going to Sox games, cheering them on and doing it with 2,000,000 + fans. But in the back of my head I'll always wonder, "why the obbsession with the lilliputions from the North"

TomBradley72
04-14-2006, 11:01 AM
There are no "thread topics" that irritate me or get to me on WSI...I view this place like a bar I walk into where there are always a few WSox fans hanging out having a few beers. "See the Trib today? See the game last night? Did you hear the latest rumor? I have a story to share about an idiot Cub fan co-worker..., etc"....I grew up here and have lived here most of my life...all of the stuff posted in various threads here is what I've talked about with my buddies on softball/baseball teams over the years, etc. If I see a topic that doesn't interest me....I don't open the thread.

jdm2662
04-14-2006, 11:01 AM
First off, let me start out by saying that I'm an avid Fire fan, and soccer fan in general. It gets much more abuse/ignored than the Sox ever have or will. Now, most avid soccer fans will try and make their case why you should like soccer, etc. For the most part, soccer haters are just people who know nothing about the game, and just saying it because it's "cool". I flat out say, I'm a fan, and if you don't like it, oh well. Just because you don't like something, or it's not "cool", it's not going to change my opinion on something.

The same thing happens with the Cubs/Sox. I stopped paying attention to both newspapers and ESPN last year for good. I've never enjoyed myself more. Spiffie had a great example of what happens when you listen to the media. A true opinion will not be valued unless you actually experience it. Wouldn't you know, it was the exact opposite of what she heard. Also, how many times did you hear from other fans all the so called "true" things said about Sox fans was far from it. Hell, the likes of Joe Buck, McCarver, and Levine, all said Comiskey during the playoffs last year was the one of the loudest ball parks they've ever heard. These are far from Sox apologists, and as proven in the past, they are mainly indifferent about them. My friend from St. Louis believed everything he hears. He was quite shocked to hear that Wrigleyville was a dump prior to 1984. He seems to have a better understanding now thanks to the rest of us being Sox fans. People with a half of brain will get it.

The Tribune and other outlets do this stuff because they think the general public is dumb and will fall for it. For the most part, they are right. ESPN has turned into a hip and cool type station. Therefore, I don't watch. The media is a joke, and it's always going to be that way. Don't get me wrong, the White Sox had their own PR problems in the late 90s that didn't help. They are as much to blame than anyone else. Let the Cubs be preceived as cool. I've got my World Series Personalized jersey on. The Cubs mean nothing to me anymore, and I just laugh at any moron and mention the hardware.

McCuddy
04-14-2006, 11:02 AM
You got that right. And they are living up the the stereotype of a "Sox fan". It's just totally embarrassing. :(:

You're on to something.

I wouldn't say I lead a sheltered life. I work in a large place (over 300 employees) downtown. I take the train each day. Since the Series ended, I have yet to have any Cub fan come up and "start" something with me. Not once.

Am I just catching all decent people, or, in order to have these experiences others here seem to have, do I need to be the one obnoxious and in people's faces? Do I need to become what we doth protest too much?

Reni
04-14-2006, 11:03 AM
There are no "thread topics" that irritate me or get to me on WSI...I view this place like a bar I walk into where there are always a few WSox fans hanging out having a few beers. "See the Trib today? See the game last night? Did you hear the latest rumor? I have a story to share about an idiot Cub fan co-worker..., etc"....I grew up here and have lived here most of my life...all of the stuff posted in various threads here is what I've talked about with my buddies on softball/baseball teams over the years, etc. If I see a topic that doesn't interest me....I don't open the thread.
:worship:

couldn't have said it better myself......

TomBradley72
04-14-2006, 11:09 AM
And one more thing....I thank Hangar for the fighting the good fight on behalf of the cause....I always keep an eye out for the "Hangar" jersey when I'm at the Cell...plan on buying him a beer when I see him. :gulp:

FarWestChicago
04-14-2006, 11:13 AM
And one more thing....I thank Hangar for the fighting the good fight on behalf of the cause....And there goes any credibility you had right out the window. :rolleyes:

viagracat
04-14-2006, 11:21 AM
You're on to something.

I wouldn't say I lead a sheltered life. I work in a large place (over 300 employees) downtown. I take the train each day. Since the Series ended, I have yet to have any Cub fan come up and "start" something with me. Not once.

Am I just catching all decent people, or, in order to have these experiences others here seem to have, do I need to be the one obnoxious and in people's faces? Do I need to become what we doth protest too much?

I agree. The Sox are the baseball kings in Chicago right now with the WS win, and the Cub fans know it. Not only that, but it's been a regular Peyton Place up there the past few years (Sosa, Stone, Mercker, Alou, Hawkins, Wood, Prior, etc). Sox controversies recently have been minimal with the exception of Frank Thomas, and if Thome isn't careful, he will become The Man in Chicago soon. There's not a whole lot that can be said by Cub fans right now that makes sense.. They know that too.

I don't expect Wrigley Field to ever lose its allure as a tourist attraction, but some of the old-time Cub fans I know are getting a little tired of all the off-field drama, close-but-no-cigar seasons, empty promises, constant health questions on the pitching and questions regarding real commitment to winning that are associated with the franchise. The Sox have righted the ship and it shows in their performance and overall stability. Real Cub fans know and respect that, and wish their team could do the same thing. We have what they wish they had. They're jealous.

Attendance numbers, a fawning media and a cute ballpark are not what it's all about. It's about a team with pride who plays like a unit and one that everyone regardless of who they are or where they're from can relate to.

The White Sox are currently that team.

cheeses_h_rice
04-14-2006, 11:23 AM
And there goes any credibility you had right out the window. :rolleyes:

Don't you have a curling match to watch, or something?

:wink:

daveeym
04-14-2006, 11:24 AM
And both have said exactly what Jerry Reinsdorf has been saying for years. To change perceptions the Sox have to win. Guess what's happening now. My problem is that so many people here can't see the migration because there are still lemmings left.

Look, most people are like the gal I remember from Joker's Wild back about 25 years or so ago. When the host said, "I see you're into Disco music," her reply was, "Oh, I was, but now I'm really getting into country and western."

For those of you who are not familiar with the times, disco got picked up by the fad followers with "Saturday Night Fever." But by 1980, John Travolta had made "Urban Cowboy" which had a huge emphasis on C&W, and the fad followers went there.

The people who go to Wrigley are those who want to be trendy. Fads and trends come and go, but winning is always in fashion, and no amount of Tribune Co. spin can gloss over that fact. Reinsdorf knows that. Williams knows that. Boyer knows that.Winning is definitely #1 but the Sox haven't put up a media relations fight for the last 20 years until Kenny and Brooks got here. Winning is just better ammunition for the fight.

Edit: You've also got an entire makeover of the area going on too which is major ammunition. In ten years though you'll still be hearing about the RTH's, safety of the park etc from the masses and Flubs fans because other than a real estate article or two buried away from the sports page the trib won't be mentioning the neighborhood. You'll still have idiots using the "watch out for snipers shooting from the RTH's" even though they'll be memories only. That's all going to be part of the Sox media war over the next 5-10 years.

TornLabrum
04-14-2006, 11:54 AM
Winning is definitely #1 but the Sox haven't put up a media relations fight for the last 20 years until Kenny and Brooks got here. Winning is just better ammunition for the fight.

Edit: You've also got an entire makeover of the area going on too which is major ammunition. In ten years though you'll still be hearing about the RTH's, safety of the park etc from the masses and Flubs fans because other than a real estate article or two buried away from the sports page the trib won't be mentioning the neighborhood. You'll still have idiots using the "watch out for snipers shooting from the RTH's" even though they'll be memories only. That's all going to be part of the Sox media war over the next 5-10 years.

The Sox didn't put up a media fight for over a decade for one reason: Rob Gallas was an idiot who wouldn't know PR if it walked up and slapped him in the face.

More fans are coming to the park. They will see the surroundings. They will discover The Big Lie. And at that point, word of mouth takes over. It's already starting to.

Vernam
04-14-2006, 11:56 AM
The Trib's coverage of Soxdom has softened somewhat, for the obvious reason that it's hard to ridicule a championship team (though they're probably working hard to solve that problem!). But seriously, I think a less-obvious reason is sheerly financial: It wouldn't be smart business to antagonize the 2 million people who turned out for that victory parade. Before 2005, I believe the propagandists had actually convinced themselves that Sox fans were nearing extinction. Confronted with the reality that there are millions of us who care deeply about the team, even the creepier media trolls have figured out it's not smart to **** with us. We'll know the tide has completely turned when they start ****ing with Cub fans, as they so clearly deserve!

More and more, I find myself agreeing with Torn's assessment that it really doesn't matter. When the old bias creeps in, it looks more pathetic than ever. But somehow it's easy to laugh it off now. I wonder why that is?

Vernam

comet2k
04-14-2006, 12:42 PM
"Albeit.....I still love going to Sox games, cheering them on and doing it with 2,000,000 + fans. But in the back of my head I'll always wonder, "why the obbsession with the lilliputions from the North ' "

I'm wondering the same thing. Why are so many Sox fans here obsessed with the Cubs? The rampant feelings of inferiority make them sound like guys with small penises who have to undress in front of the Playmate of the Year.

The Sox are the definding champions. Enjoy it! Why worry about what goes on on the other side of town?

Iwritecode
04-14-2006, 12:45 PM
You got that right. And they are living up the the stereotype of a "Sox fan". It's just totally embarrassing. :(:

Hey West, I'm curious... Since you aren't in Chicago do you ever have to explain to people that most of the stereotypes aren't true?

FarWestChicago
04-14-2006, 07:27 PM
Hey West, I'm curious... Since you aren't in Chicago do you ever have to explain to people that most of the stereotypes aren't true?Yep. And to come here and see people living the sterotype I try to deny is quite frustrating. :rolleyes:

viagracat
04-14-2006, 07:54 PM
Winning is definitely #1 but the Sox haven't put up a media relations fight for the last 20 years until Kenny and Brooks got here. Winning is just better ammunition for the fight.

Edit: You've also got an entire makeover of the area going on too which is major ammunition. In ten years though you'll still be hearing about the RTH's, safety of the park etc from the masses and Flubs fans because other than a real estate article or two buried away from the sports page the trib won't be mentioning the neighborhood. You'll still have idiots using the "watch out for snipers shooting from the RTH's" even though they'll be memories only. That's all going to be part of the Sox media war over the next 5-10 years.

The last building of the Stateways (north of Pershing) is scheduled to come down very shortly.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-14-2006, 08:27 PM
Okay, let's put it this way: If after the Sox win it all, they still listen to the Tribune propaganda machine, then they're never going to be influenced anyway.

Most news sources in this country are propaganda mills from CNN / FOX and all the major networks (I would include MSNBC but they reach 421 average viewers :redneck ) to AP and NPR and most other outlets. Many people either roll their eyes at the obvious bias or blindly accept it (because they agree with it or because they are unable to discern it). I would hope White Sox fans have a higher chance being in the former category.

As for those who are upset by the Tribune there is one simple solution. Stop reading it. I read Kass online (and most of his views are not shared by their editorial page) and that is it. Some people here go out of there way to devour every word printed by the Tribune in hopes of finding a nugget of anti White Sox bias (or perceived bias) they can get angry about and share with others and in so doing gives the Tribune more exposure. The only thing the Tribune doesn't want you to do is ignore it. Rush Limbaugh or Al Frankin or anyone else in talk radio would rather have X number of listeners who like them and Y who hate them but listen anyway vs. having X listeners and Y tuning in elsewhere. Same with Stern or Mancow or anyone else on the air.

If you truly want to hasten the Tribune's demise if they upset you and stop buying it / reading it. They will either take notice at their continued market share losses and change or watch it continue to lose readers and profits. All of you are online so you have access to news instantly and don't have to wait for some dirty (from blank ink) newsrag to leaf through reporting yesterday's news. Same with the network 5:30 pm show. People who are interested will most likely have already read, heard or listened to the news story elsewhere and the remainder have little interest in the news to begin with.

IowaSox1971
04-15-2006, 03:37 AM
Most news sources in this country are propaganda mills from CNN / FOX and all the major networks (I would include MSNBC but they reach 421 average viewers :redneck ) to AP and NPR and most other outlets. Many people either roll their eyes at the obvious bias or blindly accept it (because they agree with it or because they are unable to discern it). I would hope White Sox fans have a higher chance being in the former category.

As for those who are upset by the Tribune there is one simple solution. Stop reading it. I read Kass online (and most of his views are not shared by their editorial page) and that is it. Some people here go out of there way to devour every word printed by the Tribune in hopes of finding a nugget of anti White Sox bias (or perceived bias) they can get angry about and share with others and in so doing gives the Tribune more exposure. The only thing the Tribune doesn't want you to do is ignore it. Rush Limbaugh or Al Frankin or anyone else in talk radio would rather have X number of listeners who like them and Y who hate them but listen anyway vs. having X listeners and Y tuning in elsewhere. Same with Stern or Mancow or anyone else on the air.

If you truly want to hasten the Tribune's demise if they upset you and stop buying it / reading it. They will either take notice at their continued market share losses and change or watch it continue to lose readers and profits. All of you are online so you have access to news instantly and don't have to wait for some dirty (from blank ink) newsrag to leaf through reporting yesterday's news. Same with the network 5:30 pm show. People who are interested will most likely have already read, heard or listened to the news story elsewhere and the remainder have little interest in the news to begin with.


The more attention given to the Cubs, the less attention and coverage we get. That means fewer column inches about the White Sox in newspapers, and it means fewer minutes of coverage on Comcast SportsNet and other TV stations. It also means less coverage for the Sox on radio talk shows, etc. So, yes, media bias does upset me. I would rather read or hear about White Sox players than about Mark Prior or Kerry Wood. I'd rather hear talk about a pitching change Ozzie did or didn't make instead of about whether Jim Hendry deserved a new contract.

gbergman
04-15-2006, 04:28 AM
i made a thread close to this i believe a little while ago but all the sox fans who love the cubs just as much shot it down

PaleHoseGeorge
04-15-2006, 07:38 AM
i made a thread close to this i believe a little while ago but all the sox fans who love the cubs just as much shot it down
You came to a message board and started a thread basically telling people to shut up. Three days later you were still whining and were made to look like the whiney ass you were being.

And now a full month later you are still whining, and this even after getting kicked off the board a few days. You're a real asset to the discussion here.

Stereotype, indeed.

TornLabrum
04-15-2006, 07:43 AM
The more attention given to the Cubs, the less attention and coverage we get. That means fewer column inches about the White Sox in newspapers, and it means fewer minutes of coverage on Comcast SportsNet and other TV stations. It also means less coverage for the Sox on radio talk shows, etc. So, yes, media bias does upset me. I would rather read or hear about White Sox players than about Mark Prior or Kerry Wood. I'd rather hear talk about a pitching change Ozzie did or didn't make instead of about whether Jim Hendry deserved a new contract.

One could argue the same for the amount of coverage of the Cubs on this web site.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2006, 07:56 AM
I think it's kind of amusing to read here about the outrage over obsessions with the Cubs and the Cubune by posters, and the put-downs of the media bias discussions. It's not just posters like Hangar & me, consider some of the recent WSI main page articles:

(http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3088)Bias be damned: Cubune CEO says keep Cubs! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3088)
Cubune pours cold water on Sox Championship! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3037&PHPSESSID=dd5d01aab02c753ce2a153ceb4fb8a0c)
Pot Smoking near Cell leads Cubune's Sox playoff coverage! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3010)
Cubune choking on Sox success? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2999)
Cubune: Our mess is YOUR problem! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2947)
"Somber Streak" cries Cubune! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2820)
Cubune outraged over signage! (Sox only) (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2814)

Are these examples of obsession? I don't know. I'll leave it to the armchair psychiatrists. I enjoyed the above articles, what that says about me...where is that Willis, "Who cares?"

FarWestChicago
04-15-2006, 08:04 AM
I think it's kind of amusing to read here about the outrage over obsessions with the Cubs and the Cubune by posters, and the put-downs of the media bias discussions. It's not just posters like Hangar & me, consider some of the recent WSI main page articles:

(http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3088)Bias be damned: Cubune CEO says keep Cubs! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3088)
Cubune pours cold water on Sox Championship! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3037&PHPSESSID=dd5d01aab02c753ce2a153ceb4fb8a0c)
Pot Smoking near Cell leads Cubune's Sox playoff coverage! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=3010)
Cubune choking on Sox success? (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2999)
Cubune: Our mess is YOUR problem! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2947)
"Somber Streak" cries Cubune! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2820)
Cubune outraged over signage! (Sox only) (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=1&id=2814)

Are these examples of obsession? I don't know. I'll leave it to the armchair psychiatrists. I enjoyed the above articles, what that says about me...where is that Willis, "Who cares?"

Funny, I don't see any of those on the home page except for one opinion piece by George. It looks like you went back pre-Championship to find most of those. I'm really sick of this crap. I'm about one post from shutting this goddamned WTS forum down and ANY posts about the Flubs anywhere else will lead to suspensions. So, keep it up. I would be happier that way.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2006, 08:13 AM
Funny, I don't see any of those on the home page except for one opinion piece by George. It looks like you went back pre-Championship to find most of those. I'm really sick of this crap. I'm about one post from shutting this goddamned WTS forum down and ANY posts about the Flubs anywhere else will lead to suspensions. So, keep it up. I would be happier that way.

Ok, I should have said the following were on the WSI mainpage (or, IIRC these were on the mainpage). Whether they are on there now or they were there three months ago is not my point. They were WSI articles or opinion pieces on the lead of WSI. Our fearless leader clearly was concerned with Cubune coverage of the Sox.

FarWestChicago
04-15-2006, 08:21 AM
Ok, I should have said the following were on the WSI mainpage (or, IIRC these were on the mainpage). Whether they are on there now or they were there three months ago is not my point. They were WSI articles or opinion pieces on the lead of WSI. Our fearless leader clearly was concerned with Cubune coverage of the Sox.Nobody here likes the Flubs. And George is more vocal about it than the rest of us. And you still had to go back several months to make that list. But, you are totally missing the point. If you or Hangar ran the main page there would be nothing at all about the Sox. There would be only Flubs news. That is Flubsession and it's a pathetic stereotype of a Sox fan. I know you don't understand this and I'm wasting my time.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2006, 08:42 AM
Nobody here likes the Flubs. And George is more vocal about it than the rest of us. And you still had to go back several months to make that list. But, you are totally missing the point. If you or Hangar ran the main page there would be nothing at all about the Sox. There would be only Flubs news. That is Flubsession and it's a pathetic stereotype of a Sox fan. I know you don't understand this and I'm wasting my time.

Actually, I simply clicked on the "WSI Totally Biased Newswatch: 4/8 Bias Be Damned..." and the other links were right there on the side. I did not have to do much digging at all to find the articles.

I would argue that the discussion I started (originally titled, "Announced Attendance...") is along the same lines as those that I linked. When I came across that term in a recap of the Braves vs. Sox preseason game it got my upset. Then I researched the Cubune's usage of that term. I didn't see it as a Flubsession discussion at all.

If it's pathetic to have a Flubsession or an obsession with media bias, what I don't understand is the constant rants about those who have these. Is it a counter-obsession? Jeez, I don't know. Some say if the Cubune bias bothers you, why read it? Well, if Flubsession or meda bias talk bothers some, why do they read it?

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/q/qt-p-nd.gif

TornLabrum
04-15-2006, 08:51 AM
Actually, I simply clicked on the "WSI Totally Biased Newswatch: 4/8 Bias Be Damned..." and the other links were right there on the side. I did not have to do much digging at all to find the articles.

I would argue that the discussion I started (originally titled, "Announced Attendance...") is along the same lines as those that I linked. When I came across that term in a recap of the Braves vs. Sox preseason game it got my upset. Then I researched the Cubune's usage of that term. I didn't see it as a Flubsession discussion at all.

If it's pathetic to have a Flubsession or an obsession with media bias, what I don't understand is the constant rants about those who have these. Is it a counter-obsession? Jeez, I don't know. Some say if the Cubune bias bothers you, why read it? Well, if Flubsession or meda bias talk bothers some, why do they read it?

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/q/qt-p-nd.gif

As mods at least some of us have to read it.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2006, 08:56 AM
As mods at least some of us have to read it.

Point taken.

Since I'm not in your position, I can't claim to know how you feel. But I do appreciate the work you and the rest of the WSI crew do.

THANKS WSI GUYS (AND GALS)!

PaleHoseGeorge
04-15-2006, 09:07 AM
Please leave my name out of this.

If anyone here chooses to argue that I'm "flubsessed" you are going to have to answer for a whole lot more than some cherry-picked articles from the last seven years.

I've got a LONG record here. I created here.

DrCrawdad
04-15-2006, 09:19 AM
Please leave my name out of this.

If anyone here chooses to argue that I'm "flubsessed" you are going to have to answer for a whole lot more than some cherry-picked articles from the last seven years.

I've got a LONG record here. I created here.

George, with all due respect I did not argue that you are "flubsessed." That was not my point at all. I certainly did not intend to offend you, I was trying to make a point. If in trying to make my point I offended you, or I erred in judgement, I apologize.

With that I'll cease my discussions here, and additionally I'm checking my self in...

:therapy:

TornLabrum
04-15-2006, 09:24 AM
George, with all due respect I did not argue that you are "flubsessed." That was not my point at all. I certainly did not intend to offend you, I was trying to make a point. If in trying to make my point I offended you, or I erred in judgement, I apologize.

With that I'll cease my discussions here, and additionally I'm checking my self in...

:therapy:

Well, it's about time!!!! :D:

DrCrawdad
04-15-2006, 09:29 AM
Well, it's about time!!!! :D:

Ok, breaking my word...

You're right! Last nights game was the type that drives me to Lucy Therapy.

Hangar18
04-17-2006, 09:38 AM
Nobody here likes the Flubs. And George is more vocal about it than the rest of us. And you still had to go back several months to make that list. But, you are totally missing the point. If you or Hangar ran the main page there would be nothing at all about the Sox. There would be only Flubs news. That is Flubsession and it's a pathetic stereotype of a Sox fan. I know you don't understand this and I'm wasting my time.

If I was in charge of the main page, of course it would always be SOX related. Cmon now. there are a number of us who are sick of the way the sox are maligned and ignored in this town. Every time its pointed out, I think its amazing that something gets mentioned in the media whether tv, print, radio. people are reading stuff here ................

PaulDrake
04-17-2006, 11:06 AM
I don't know if I fit the stereotype of "flubssessed" or not. I don't think that we've reached the point here where emphasis on those lovable, adorable darlings overshadows that given the team we all root for. If I were a fan of another team and I happened upon this web site I'm sure I'd come to the immediate conclusion that WSI is for die hard Chicago White Sox fans, and I'd be impressed by the intensity and fervor of this teams fandom. I left the Chicago area over twenty years ago. Out of town baseball fans find it hard to believe that someone from Chicago roots for the White Sox. The White Sox?? Oh, the horror of it all. I couldn't even begin to list all the negative perceptions affiliated with the Sox, countered by the absolute pollyanna beliefs associated with the cubs. Why is this? The Tribune, WGN and all the other fellow travelers locally and nationally have done a bang up job. Even a WS victory for our White Sox has done little to change perceptions. Some of us would just like to fight back a little. I do what I can, when dealing with baseball fans from distant ports of call. Believe me it's tougher than you think. There is so much silliness associated with them, and so little positivity associated with the White Sox.