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ChiSoxIn06
04-13-2006, 02:50 PM
Mr. Garland? This is the 2nd straight start for him that the sox gave him a huge lead and he has almost given it all back at this point. Are we seeing the true garland from the previous years?

Huisj
04-13-2006, 02:53 PM
Mr. Garland? This is the 2nd straight start for him that the sox gave him a huge lead and he has almost given it all back at this point. Are we seeing the true garland from the previous years?

I dunno, the Garland from previous years didn't have a 13.94 ERA.

skottyj242
04-13-2006, 02:53 PM
Yes.

kittle42
04-13-2006, 02:55 PM
Are there folks around here who just can't wait to post the "Let's worry about X" thread?

Thome's Homey
04-13-2006, 03:00 PM
It's obviously not the same Garland that we had for so long, goofball. :tongue:

This Garland isn't walking everyone he sees. This Garland is simply getting hit often and hard. I imagine he just needs to work his arm enough that he gets the sink back on his fastball.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-13-2006, 03:01 PM
Is it time to worry about....the fact that we worry too much?

PatK
04-13-2006, 03:03 PM
His location is terrible. He's leaving everything in the middle to outer half of the plate.

One of the big reasons he did well last year was working inside. He's not hitting it right now.

WilliamLigueJr
04-13-2006, 03:05 PM
Which is your favorite of Garland's breaking pitches? His slider or curve?

Dan Mega
04-13-2006, 03:09 PM
I usually am not a dark cloud but he looks like he did in 2002 so far.

10-8, c'mon now...

Unregistered
04-13-2006, 03:10 PM
Which is your favorite of Garland's breaking pitches? His slider or curve?
You won't be here long.

Hawkeroo1980
04-13-2006, 03:10 PM
Mr. Garland? This is the 2nd straight start for him that the sox gave him a huge lead and he has almost given it all back at this point. Are we seeing the true garland from the previous years?

better watch out for all the "dark clouds" from people to refuse that there could be a problem.

DeadMoney
04-13-2006, 03:11 PM
You won't be here long.

Agreed.

ilsox7
04-13-2006, 03:15 PM
Are there folks around here who just can't wait to post the "Let's worry about X" thread?

You've been around here long enough Kittle to see the masses butcher the language we communicate with and overreact to just about everything.

Two starts is not a crisis folks. Is it worrisome? Sure. But there is no need to freak out about it.

Baby Fisk
04-13-2006, 03:16 PM
You won't be here long.
Can't a man pay his debt to society and start fresh?

Unregistered
04-13-2006, 03:17 PM
You've been around here long enough Kittle to see the masses butcher the language we communicate with and overreact to just about everything.

Ironic sentence of the day? :D:

Trav
04-13-2006, 03:18 PM
Four starters have had at least one solid outing so far. I am not worried about it. If Garland can't hit his spots after two months I would be worried. How did Conteras do at the beginning of the year last year? He sure pitched well after the all-star break huh?

BainesHOF
04-13-2006, 03:19 PM
Nothing that a haircut and shave can't cure.

He pitched like he looked today. What's with the hair? In the dugout without his hat, Garland looked like he was wearing Little Richard's bouffant.

HomeFish
04-13-2006, 03:19 PM
When a member of your starting rotation has a 13+ ERA, I personally believe that worrying is an entirely rational reaction.

Note that "worrying" does not equal "declaring Garland to be sure to suck for the rest of the season"; it is merely acknowledging that possibility. After watching his first two starts, anyone who does not believe that it is possible that Garland may have lost it is the one who is being irrational.

ChiSoxIn06
04-13-2006, 03:20 PM
Four starters have had at least one solid outing so far. I am not worried about it. If Garland can't hit his spots after two months I would be worried. How did Conteras do at the beginning of the year last year? He sure pitched well after the all-star break huh?

Contreras wasn't giving up 5 and 8 run leads either. I believe he kept his ERA in single digits as well. Garland has to be at around 15 right now.

ilsox7
04-13-2006, 03:21 PM
Ironic sentence of the day? :D:

I hope you're not the only one who picked up on it...

HomeFish
04-13-2006, 03:22 PM
Garland has to be at around 15 right now.

Garland's current ERA of 13.94 is actually a decrease from his previous 15+ ERA after the KC game.

ChiSoxIn06
04-13-2006, 03:23 PM
Garland's current ERA of 13.94 is actually a decrease from his previous 15+ ERA after the KC game.

well thats a relief. at least he is getting better.

WilliamLigueJr
04-13-2006, 03:23 PM
Four starters have had at least one solid outing so far. I am not worried about it. If Garland can't hit his spots after two months I would be worried. How did Conteras do at the beginning of the year last year? He sure pitched well after the all-star break huh?

Exactly! Almost every team in baseball has trouble finding a reliable #5 guy. Garland's performance will not make or break the season. Besides, the White Sox have the best #6 starter in baseball.

Thome's Homey
04-13-2006, 03:25 PM
Exactly! Almost every team in baseball has trouble finding a reliable #5 guy. Garland's performance will not make or break the season. Besides, the White Sox have the best #6 starter in baseball.

Hmmm. If you're not banned, I'm banking on your signature to at least be deleted.

Trav
04-13-2006, 03:25 PM
Contreras wasn't giving up 5 and 8 run leads either. I believe he kept his ERA in single digits as well. Garland has to be at around 15 right now.

After two starts! Things tend to even out a bit over time. I think the Detroit radio guy said it best during the Garcia game. "He has about two bad outings a year, unfortunately for him one of them landed on his first start." Garland can turn it around.

PaulDrake
04-13-2006, 03:32 PM
You won't be here long. I certainly hope so.

lostletters
04-13-2006, 03:33 PM
Pitchers get in slumps just like hitters. He will probably snap out of it. Let Coop work things out with him.

rdwj
04-13-2006, 03:42 PM
ALL the pitchers were getting hit hard today - Garland actually looked decent during the first few innings.

The KC outing falls squarely on Ozuna's back so Jon's ERA is muc higher than he really deserves. He hasn't pitched bad enough to really worry me yet. Let's see how he looks after a couple more.

cbotnyse
04-13-2006, 04:00 PM
the only thing we should worry about right now is Pods....we really need him on base

maurice
04-13-2006, 04:12 PM
Yes, the ERA of a pitcher with 10.1 IP is an extremely significant stat.

Can we get a chart projecting Garland's ERA through 2008? Here are some data points:
2005 - 3.50
2006 - 13.94
2007 - 24.34*
2008 - 34.78*
* projected

The good news is that, considering Thome's 2005 stats and his 2006 stats, the trend proves that he's certain to shatter some MLB records in the coming years.

DumpJerry
04-13-2006, 04:13 PM
You won't be here long.
He gone.

ode to veeck
04-13-2006, 04:18 PM
Is it time to worry about....the fact that we worry too much?

Exactly! We've won 4 in a row and are over .500 again. Be patient with Jon. That's what Ozzie started doing with Jon ever since he got here and it paid off bigtime last season.

Ol' No. 2
04-13-2006, 04:22 PM
Are there folks around here who just can't wait to post the "Let's worry about X" thread?You just noticed???

hawkjt
04-13-2006, 04:25 PM
unless big jon comes up with arm problems.

Injury is the only concern for the whole team for me.

Just keep winning -Big Jon.

viagracat
04-13-2006, 04:28 PM
Give him at least a couple more starts. He didn't get a whole lot of help from his defense in the first start. Today the wind was blowing out, and he had a big lead to work with, so he was able to go after the hitters a little more. Having said that, though, his location and command today were not good, and he'll obviously have to work on that. He's never exhibited the command and confidence someone like Buehrle does, and he'll have to work on that too.

Brandon McCarthy might be a HUGE insurance policy down the road should one of the starters get hurt or be ineffective.

viagracat
04-13-2006, 04:30 PM
He gone.

Sox win, Cubs are losing, a beautiful weather day and a troll banning. Life is good. :D:

Iguana775
04-13-2006, 04:30 PM
I'm hoping that once it heats up, his sinker will start to kick in and get back to normal.

Something's not right with ol' Jon. Hopefully he can straighten it out.

ondafarm
04-13-2006, 04:38 PM
Worried? No.

A tad concerned? Yes.

If I was Ozzie Guillen, I would have a chat with Cooper about what is bothering him and what I can do to fix it.

If it's physical then I notify KW and McCarthy that their services may be needed.

If it's mental (99% probability) then I make sure Coop and AJ are on it and we have a plan and then I execute that plan.

I'd be hideously shocked if Ozzie hasn't done these things.

INSox56
04-13-2006, 04:39 PM
Aren't we also forgetting that the Tigers CAN HIT. I mean Jon didn't look TOO horrible in his last start...a few better plays by Ozuna would have not led to the first rally, and not let the second rally continue. People tend to say yeah, it's the tigers...well they're gonna hit, and hit a lot. Have we forgotten Maggs already? Yeah Garcia and Contreras held them down, but they have better, nastier raw "stuff" than Garland. And as someone else pointed out...all our pitchers got knocked around today.

IlliniSox4Life
04-13-2006, 04:40 PM
Unless you are one who really believes that Thome will hit 97 home runs this year, or whatever he is on pace to hit, you shouldn't be freaking out about Garland (or Pods).

The fact is, Thome will not hit 97 home runs, and Garland will not keep up this 14 era stuff. People need to realize the sample size is too small to draw any sort of conclusions.

batmanZoSo
04-13-2006, 04:46 PM
I haven't seen either of Garland's outings, but he's not this bad. In fact, nobody is. It must be something mechanical that can be fixed. Garland's definitely going to be on top of Coop's priority list, so we'll see what he can do. I'm not worried yet, it's only two starts and we won one of them and should've won both really. Furthermore, we have 4 other quality starters and McCarthy waiting in the wings if worst comes to worst. So I really don't see a problem.

drewcifer
04-13-2006, 04:53 PM
Aren't we also forgetting that the Tigers CAN HIT. I mean Jon didn't look TOO horrible in his last start...a few better plays by Ozuna would have not led to the first rally, and not let the second rally continue. People tend to say yeah, it's the tigers...well they're gonna hit, and hit a lot. Have we forgotten Maggs already? Yeah Garcia and Contreras held them down, but they have better, nastier raw "stuff" than Garland. And as someone else pointed out...all our pitchers got knocked around today.
Good post. :nod:

I was able to catch the first 3 innings in the office before heading off to a client (it was 9-1), and then Jon was already out and it was (10-8) when I was heading back in.

Anyone got the pitch count stats? If he's throwing strikes and is just getting hit, BFD (what it looks like at 13H).

He'll find his spots in time. Issued only 1 walk so he's not just handing out runners.... But I'm curious to see if he was getting behind on batters. The hits I saw in the first 3 innings were flukey.....

Ol' No. 2
04-13-2006, 05:03 PM
Aren't we also forgetting that the Tigers CAN HIT. I mean Jon didn't look TOO horrible in his last start...a few better plays by Ozuna would have not led to the first rally, and not let the second rally continue. People tend to say yeah, it's the tigers...well they're gonna hit, and hit a lot. Have we forgotten Maggs already? Yeah Garcia and Contreras held them down, but they have better, nastier raw "stuff" than Garland. And as someone else pointed out...all our pitchers got knocked around today.Let's not sugar coat it. Garland sucked on Friday and he sucked today. Blaming it on Ozuna is like saying the Red Sox lost the ALDS because of Graffanino. Errors are part of the game. Good pitchers overcome it. Garland crumbled.

That's not to say that the apocalypse is imminent. I seem to recall Buehrle having a string of pretty bad outings a couple of years ago. It happens.

SOecks
04-13-2006, 05:03 PM
Unless you are one who really believes that Thome will hit 97 home runs this year, or whatever he is on pace to hit, you shouldn't be freaking out about Garland (or Pods).

The fact is, Thome will not hit 97 home runs, and Garland will not keep up this 14 era stuff. People need to realize the sample size is too small to draw any sort of conclusions.

Blasphemer!!! Of course Thome will hit 97 home runs.

Huisj
04-13-2006, 05:04 PM
Yes, the ERA of a pitcher with 10.1 IP is an extremely significant stat.

Can we get a chart projecting Garland's ERA through 2008? Here are some data points:
2005 - 3.50
2006 - 13.94
2007 - 24.34*
2008 - 34.78*
* projected

The good news is that, considering Thome's 2005 stats and his 2006 stats, the trend proves that he's certain to shatter some MLB records in the coming years.

Interestingly enough, I hear Baseball Prospectus is working on a 3 page article that deeply analyzes exactly these projected statistics, along with his alarming increase in VORP over the next three simulated years too. This will all prove once again that the sox still only have a 93.4% chance of making the playoffs last year.

cbotnyse
04-13-2006, 05:09 PM
I cant wait for the game that Thome goes 0-4 ......there will be a major "is it time to worry about Thome!!!" thread :redneck

Thome's Homey
04-13-2006, 05:15 PM
along with his alarming increase in VORP


You mean decrease. An increase is good. :rolleyes:

ondafarm
04-13-2006, 05:15 PM
Let's not sugar coat it. Garland sucked on Friday and he sucked today. Blaming it on Ozuna is like saying the Red Sox lost the ALDS because of Graffanino. Errors are part of the game. Good pitchers overcome it. Garland crumbled.

That's not to say that the apocalypse is imminent. I seem to recall Buehrle having a string of pretty bad outings a couple of years ago. It happens.

Garland has a crumbly history. He's always been suspect to big innings and always to flaws on defense. Some pitchers get over those things and some don't. You notice that Ozzie put his best defenders out there today so that inning opening errors were (hopefully) prevented. A good manager knows which of his pitchers easily bounce back from the occasional boot in the field and which fall apart.

Knowing a guy will fall apart and doing nothing to compensate and having him lose the game is the manager's fault. Garland seemed to throw well but then crumbled when some iffy defense occurred. I caught a guy like that in Japan. Whenever there was a boot in the field, I'd go out and tell him a joke, he'd work so hard to translate it, he'd forget the kicked ball and have to start fresh and he'd be back to cruising. Got him up to the majors where he waffled for a few weeks, came back down, righted himself and went back with instructions. Won 15 for the Dragons the next year and whenever I've seen him since he still gives me a hard time about the jokes I told him. He never did figure out "The white horse fell in the mud" joke, but it convinced him to throw three straight changeups for strikes on the inside corner to a kid named I.Suzuki playing for Hitachi straight out of high school.

Fuller_Schettman
04-13-2006, 05:16 PM
Garland has had ungodly run support. Maybe he is just not the kind of guy that does well when you score 10 or 15 runs for him. Some pitchers are like that. They get sloppy or lazy and figure they will just let the hitters hit the ball to the fielders and be done with it.

Having said that, he keeps this up and he will be switching places with McCarthy quicker than you can say "Happy Flag Day!"

Ol' No. 2
04-13-2006, 05:17 PM
Garland has a crumbly history. He's always been suspect to big innings and always to flaws on defense. Some pitchers get over those things and some don't. You notice that Ozzie put his best defenders out there today so that inning opening errors were (hopefully) prevented. A good manager knows which of his pitchers easily bounce back from the occasional boot in the field and which fall apart.

Knowing a guy will fall apart and doing nothing to compensate and having him lose the game is the manager's fault. Garland seemed to throw well but then crumbled when some iffy defense occurred. I caught a guy like that in Japan. Whenever there was a boot in the field, I'd go out and tell him a joke, he'd work so hard to translate it, he'd forget the kicked ball and have to start fresh and he'd be back to cruising. Got him up to the majors where he waffled for a few weeks, came back down, righted himself and went back with instructions. Won 15 for the Dragons the next year and whenever I've seen him since he still gives me a hard time about the jokes I told him. He never did figure out "The white horse fell in the mud" joke, but it convinced him to throw three straight changeups for strikes on the inside corner to a kid named I.Suzuki playing for Hitachi straight out of high school.But that's how Judy finally got banished last year. He learned to pitch over those things. Somehow, he's forgotten. Maybe you should send AJ a few of those jokes.

ode to veeck
04-13-2006, 05:39 PM
Garland used to have a crumbly history, but he's always had the stuff. Give him time to work through it, it's still wayyy early.

StockdaleForVeep
04-13-2006, 05:48 PM
Are there folks around here who just can't wait to post the "Let's worry about X" thread?

Does it count if ive worried about him for the past 3 years?

INSox56
04-13-2006, 05:59 PM
Garland has had ungodly run support. Maybe he is just not the kind of guy that does well when you score 10 or 15 runs for him. Some pitchers are like that. They get sloppy or lazy and figure they will just let the hitters hit the ball to the fielders and be done with it.

Having said that, he keeps this up and he will be switching places with McCarthy quicker than you can say "Happy Flag Day!"
Very good point...I almost forgot about that. Garland DID go 8-0 last year, but yeah, now that you mention it, I remember he had incredible run support. I'm not on the list of "he's fine" OR "he's horrible" yet. I'm just bringing up that the tigers DO have a pretty darn good offense.

SOXSINCE'70
04-13-2006, 06:03 PM
I seem to recall Buehrle having a string of pretty bad outings a couple of years ago.

Beuhrle started the 2003 season 4-9,went 11-5 in the second half and
finshed with a 14-14 record.If it weren't for Beuhrle being a good sport
(he let Esteban Loaiza start against KC on the last day of the season
so he could "shatter":rolleyes: the Mexican pitching strikeout record),he could
have won 15.Beuhrle responded well to adversity.Let's see how Garland
responds to it.

SOXSINCE'70
04-13-2006, 06:06 PM
I cant wait for the game that Thome goes 0-4 ......there will be a major "is it time to worry about Thome!!!" thread :redneck

No,then it will be time to trade his sorry ass.:D: :D: :D:

SoLongFrank
04-13-2006, 06:16 PM
All of you are forgetting the AJ effect on Jon. What turned Jon around last year is Ozzie going out there & chewing his arse out near the 5th inning. Jon looks good the first & second time thru a lineup but he seems lost .. again .. the 3rd time around.

Ozzie needs to ride him again. Ride his arse until he just throws what AJ tells him to. Hawk & DJ got it right today. Jon stopped pounding the inside. He went away from getting the weak go's & fo's & tried to get more strike outs.

He's no Vazquez or Contreras. He's more like Buehrle.

I still think he'll be traded first to make room for BrMac because mentally he's still the most fragile & when he doesn't get calls he loses it quickly. The rest don't.

HomeFish
04-13-2006, 06:43 PM
Thome will not hit 97 home runs

http://earth.rice.edu/mtpe/atmo/atmosphere/what_images/dark_clouds(small).jpg

ode to veeck
04-13-2006, 06:45 PM
http://earth.rice.edu/mtpe/atmo/atmosphere/what_images/dark_clouds(small).jpg

awsome dark cloud image, I hadn't seen that one yet

Lip Man 1
04-13-2006, 08:18 PM
It is not unreasonable to wonder what may be going on with Garland but after two games it's hard to get a reading.

No question though he has reverted back to 2001-2004, the big inning is killing him.

Maybe he is tipping something right now.

In any event if needed McCarthy can be slotted into the rotation. I know the Sox don't want to do that since he is adjusting to long / middle relief and he'd need to stretch his arm out, but it is a viable option.

And may I add, it's certainly a better one then retreds and clowns like Arnie Munoz, Brian Keyser, Jon Rauch and Mike Bertotti!

Lip

whitesoxfan1986
04-14-2006, 01:02 PM
Note that Garland's fastball is in the 87-90 mph range right now. His fastball is not setting up his breaking balls. Last year Jon's fastball was in the 92-95 mph range with occasional pops at 96, which set up his breaking balls so they could be more effective. I haven't seen Jon throw sinkers this year unless they were the 81-83 mph stuff that looks like a changeup. The velocity on Jon's pitches is way down from last year which makes me wonder if he is hurt or has mechanical problems, or if he didn't get enough work in ST and will be fine once he gets his velocity back after a couple more starts. Personally, I believe the latter.

FarWestChicago
04-14-2006, 01:19 PM
It's nice to see Lip and HomeFish in their glory. :tongue:

SBSoxFan
04-14-2006, 01:54 PM
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7577/1975/1600/LigerSweep.0.jpg

:roflmao:

Jurr
04-14-2006, 11:08 PM
If you're wanting to be concerned about anything, it's the status of this whole pitching staff. The offense is setting the tone this year, and the pitching has been lacking since Arizona. The numbers don't lie.

However, you've gotta be patient and believe that the Sox are going to get themselves out of this mess.

ndu3t4
04-14-2006, 11:17 PM
If you're wanting to be concerned about anything, it's the status of this whole pitching staff. The offense is setting the tone this year, and the pitching has been lacking since Arizona. The numbers don't lie.

However, you've gotta be patient and believe that the Sox are going to get themselves out of this mess.
I think the pitching staff is fine if your not comparing it to last year. 2005's staff went down as one of the best in MLB history and it's unfair to have to live up to that. Our top three are fine. I'm also not too concerned about Javier. He got ruffed up tonite, but he was making good pitches (exept Hillinbrand) and the Jays were hitting dinks all over the place. Jon needs some work though, but I'm sure he'll come around. As for the bullpen, I like Thornton, Nails, Cotts, and Bobby. I think Cliff's done though. Logan also did his job tonight, and with some good coaching and getting worked slowly into game situatons (I don't think we can ask for any better in this department), Boone will be a fine reliever.

And this early in the year, yes, numbers do lie. A pitcher can give up one run in one inning, in his first outing, and have a 9.00 ERA.

Let's not get worried, folks.

TomBradley72
04-15-2006, 11:28 AM
Brian Anderson.

I'm having Julio Ramirez flashbacks the way he looks at the plate right now.

Railsplitter
04-15-2006, 01:26 PM
It's still April. No worrying until May!:wink:


I don't this April being like last August if:

A) This August is like last April

and

B) The rest of the months play out the same way as last year

PaleHoseGeorge
04-15-2006, 01:38 PM
It's April 15 and I'm not worried about anything but my taxes.
:cool:

In case you hadn't noticed Cleveland just loss 3 in a row, so I guess they're all committing suicide up and down the length of the Cuyahoga.
:kukoo:

Ol' No. 2
04-15-2006, 01:47 PM
It's April 15 and I'm not worried about anything but my taxes.
:cool:

In case you hadn't noticed Cleveland just loss 3 in a row, so I guess they're all committing suicide up and down the length of the Cuyahoga.
:kukoo:But there's only 152 games left. They have to act now before it's too late.:D:

SoLongFrank
04-15-2006, 02:18 PM
Anderson. It's not so much that he is woeful at the plate as it is missed scoring opps. Both Crede & Uribe/Cintron are getting on ahead of him & he resembles a national league pitcher at the plate right now.

He's not only in a hitting funk, but he's failing to move runners over & get the easy rbi's without having to get a hit.

That kind of a hole brings the whole tail of the order down as far as run production.

RowanDye
04-15-2006, 02:44 PM
B& is painful to watch right now. He's having trouble even touching the ball. At least Pods is taking some pitches and making contact. Brian would be better off trying to bunt everytime just to remember what it feels like when the ball hits his bat. I really like the guy, but another few weeks of this and something has to be done.

Anderson. It's not so much that he is woeful at the plate as it is missed scoring opps. Both Crede & Uribe/Cintron are getting on ahead of him & he resembles a national league pitcher at the plate right now.

He's not only in a hitting funk, but he's failing to move runners over & get the easy rbi's without having to get a hit.

That kind of a hole brings the whole tail of the order down as far as run production.

ondafarm
04-15-2006, 02:59 PM
B& is painful to watch right now. He's having trouble even touching the ball. At least Pods is taking some pitches and making contact. Brian would be better off trying to bunt everytime just to remember what it feels like when the ball hits his bat. I really like the guy, but another few weeks of this and something has to be done.

Is he as bad as Robin Ventura was at the start of his rookie season?

Leave him alone. Anderson seems to be doing well in the field (I get to watch a couple of Phillies games on Extra Innings and Rowand is doing no better than Anderson on defense.)

ChiSoxFan7
04-15-2006, 06:17 PM
It's still April. No worrying until May!:wink:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't this April being like last August if:

A) This August is like last April

and

B) The rest of the months play out the same way as last year



what he said.

Lprof
04-16-2006, 05:50 PM
Anderson. It's not so much that he is woeful at the plate as it is missed scoring opps. Both Crede & Uribe/Cintron are getting on ahead of him & he resembles a national league pitcher at the plate right now.

He's not only in a hitting funk, but he's failing to move runners over & get the easy rbi's without having to get a hit.

That kind of a hole brings the whole tail of the order down as far as run production.


I'm worried about Anderson, Pods, Cliff, Garland.......I worry a lot :(: ( though I guess it beats worrying about global warming and Iraq). Somehow, they still seem to be winning (and that "somehow" has a lot to do with Buerhle, the middle of the order, and--surprise, surprise--Jenks!).