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Daver
04-08-2006, 04:59 PM
Todays edition of the loftiest dwarf.


:AJ:


It wasn't my damn fault.

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 05:11 PM
Over Vazquez? Err?

WhiteSoxFan84
04-08-2006, 05:13 PM
Yeh that's a rough snub right there. Vaz was as good as it gets.

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 05:24 PM
I thought AJ calling for 4 consecutive fastballs to Sanders pretty much lost us the game.

thomas35forever
04-08-2006, 06:17 PM
AJ seemed inconsistent at the plate today despite those two hits. It really should've gone to Vazquez. It wasn't his fault either.

Daver
04-08-2006, 06:18 PM
Are your elephant guns clean?

gbergman
04-08-2006, 06:28 PM
Vaz is my PTC for today AJ should known better against sanders.

WSox8404
04-08-2006, 06:30 PM
Are your elephant guns clean?


Is this the first threat of the year?

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 06:32 PM
Is this the first threat of the year?

...And it comes with the team's first Cy Young performance of the year:

7 IP, 7 K, 2.57 ERA, 0.86 WHIP :roflmao:

Nice!

Daver
04-08-2006, 06:36 PM
...And it comes with the team's first Cy Young performance of the year:

7 IP, 7 K, 2.57 ERA, 0.86 WHIP :roflmao:

Nice!

Did he win the damn game?

No.

Go clean your elephant gun.

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 06:43 PM
Is this the first threat of the year?

Dogone it!! I missed that chance !!!

What's the range needed on the elephant gun? 1,000 paces? Sniper scope permitted?

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 06:45 PM
Did he win the damn game?

No.

Of course not...And as you said for AJ, Vazquez certainly deserves a "It wasn't my damn fault." Did AJ win the game?

Go clean your elephant gun.
I have no idea what this means. If it's supposed to be some sort of threat, it's not very effective, as it's just confusing. :dunno:

If it is a threat, it's also kind of silly. Do you ban people for not agreeing with you? Does everything you say stand as indisputible law? Normally, that would take a high level of insecurity. That's censorship not for vulgarity or inappropriateness, but for someone not being your mind-slave...And no one likes censorship of the Gestapo sort. If you ban people for gthat around here, you should most definitely ban me, as that would make you the kind of Sox fan I wouldn't want to be associated with in any way. :D:

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 06:46 PM
BTW, I think Bruce Froemming, the home plate umpire, who also called that game in Oakland last year (THAT GAME) should be the Royal's PTC.

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 06:47 PM
BTW, I think Bruce Froemming, the home plate umpire, who also called that game in Oakland last year (THAT GAME) should be the Royal's PTC.

That was him? :o:

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 06:47 PM
Do you ban people for not agreeing with you?

No comment.

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 06:50 PM
No comment.

That happens here?

If that's the case, this site isn't worth much to me, and shouldn't be to anyone else. Seemed like a good place full of decent fans, but I may have been wrong.

It's just odd that everyone but Daver thinks the PTC is Vazquez.

Either Daver is wrong, or his baseball knowledge is just so amazingly ahead of everyone else's that no one understands it.

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 06:51 PM
That happens here?

If that's the case, this site isn't worth much to me, and shouldn't be to anyone else. Seemed like a good place full of decent fans, but I may have been wrong.

It's just odd that everyone but Daver thinks the PTC is Vazquez.

Either Daver is wrong, or his baseball knowledge is just so amazingly ahead of everyone else's that no one understands it.

:rolleyes:

SoxSpeed22
04-08-2006, 06:51 PM
That happens here?

If that's the case, this site isn't worth much to me, and shouldn't be to anyone else. Seemed like a good place full of decent fans, but I may have been wrong.

It's just odd that everyone but Daver thinks the PTC is Vazquez.

Either Daver is wrong, or his baseball knowledge is just so amazingly ahead of everyone else's that no one understands it.Nice knowing you.

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 06:52 PM
:rolleyes:

Seeing how everyone else seems to afraid to type anything...It's been nice knowing some of you. I feel a ban coming on...And it's going to be so unjust that I'm actually quite proud of it.

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 06:54 PM
Seeing how everyone else seems to afraid to type anything...It's been nice knowing some of you. I feel a ban coming on...
Just remember that the winner of the season-long PTC contest gets a case of Hamm's. That's it. Is it really worth hassling a mod over some Hamm's?

Besides, CLR01 wins it every year anyway. He already has 3 correct picks!:wink:

Chisox003
04-08-2006, 06:54 PM
Seeing how everyone else seems to afraid to type anything...It's been nice knowing some of you. I feel a ban coming on...And it's going to be so unjust that I'm actually quite proud of it.
You're a hero

Seriously, you're arguing about a pick to click? Give me a break....

In a loss, no less.

:rolleyes:

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 06:58 PM
Just remember that the winner of the season-long PTC contest gets a case of Hamm's. That's it. Is it really worth hassling a mod over some Hamm's?

Besides, CLR01 wins it every year anyway. He already has 3 correct picks!:wink:

It's not about the pick to click. I don't really care one bit about that other than a desire to see Vazquez recognized for his superior contribution (much better than AJ's). What it's about is the most ridiculous form of censorship there is.

Just goes to show you that if it seems too good to be true, it really is. This seemed like a much nicer place than the MLB.com board. :(:

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 07:00 PM
It's not about the pick to click. I don't really care one bit about that other than a desire to see Vazquez recognized for his superior contribution (much better than AJ's). What it's about is the most ridiculous form of censorship there is.

Just goes to show you that if it seems too good to be true, it really is. This seemed like a much nicer place than the MLB.com board. :(:
You're right, the mlb.com boards are on the same level as WSI.

Daver's PTCs are beyond question. No one said this was a democracy. Now go take the wheels off your lunchbox Braino and letís all call a dog.

:D:

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:01 PM
No comment.
Depends on how often and how loudly they do it. People should realize this is for fun and getting in Daver's face repeatedly over his choices will get you in trouble. I don't own an elephant gun. I don't need one. I do have a computer with all the necessary links to "get Daver's back" whenever it seems like someone just won't put it down or decides they are getting picked on and starts ranting about the horrible way they are being treated by the PTC judge.

Don't worry about the gun, Daver hasn't actually killed anyone yet - to the best of my knowledge. Worry about me and ODF is prime example number 2 or how stupid it is to make the PTC contest into a "go to the wall" argument for the right to act like an ass over something that is supposed to be fun...

Whatever happened to Gumshoe anyway? :rolleyes:

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:02 PM
That happens here?

If that's the case, this site isn't worth much to me, and shouldn't be to anyone else. Seemed like a good place full of decent fans, but I may have been wrong.

It's just odd that everyone but Daver thinks the PTC is Vazquez.

Either Daver is wrong, or his baseball knowledge is just so amazingly ahead of everyone else's that no one understands it.

You want me to delete you account, I am more than happy to do it. I'm not kidding either. :?:

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:03 PM
Seeing how everyone else seems to afraid to type anything...It's been nice knowing some of you. I feel a ban coming on...And it's going to be so unjust that I'm actually quite proud of it.

You aren't the first to feel that way and you probably won't be the last. :rolleyes:

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 07:03 PM
You want me to delete you account, I am more than happy to do it. I'm not kidding either. :?:

1. If you guys censor people just for not agreeing with you, yes.
2. If you welcome discussion rather than squash it with bans, no.

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:08 PM
1. If you guys censor people just for not agreeing with you, yes.
2. If you welcome discussion rather than squash it with bans, no.

Opinions are one thing. So long as everyone can play nice, their opinions are welcome. Deciding to get into a huge fight or even regularly ranting about this particular topic is just plain stupid.

I for one don't take it lightly when someone decides to make a huge scene about the PTC decisions and am not afraid in any way to send someone packing until the PTC contest is over.

It's just not worth the hassles. If you feel that makes another board more your style, feel free to post there and enter whatever contest they have set up. WSI isn't for everyone, but we feel we are the best there is at what we do and one of the reasons for that is we try to keep the fighting to a minimum.

Thome's Homey
04-08-2006, 07:12 PM
Opinions are one thing. So long as everyone can play nice, their opinions are welcome. Deciding to get into a huge fight or even regularly ranting about this particular topic is just plain stupid.

I for one don't take it lightly when someone decides to make a huge scene about the PTC decisions and am not afraid in any way to send someone packing until the PTC contest is over.

It's just not worth the hassles. If you feel that makes another board more your style, feel free to post there and enter whatever contest they have set up. WSI isn't for everyone, but we feel we are the best there is at what we do and one of the reasons for that is we try to keep the fighting to a minimum.

I really thought that we were all having a nice discussion.

I thought we were playing quite nicely until someone dropped the still-confusing "elephant gun" comment into it. If you look back to that first page, everyone was civilly discussing the PTC until that. After that, everyone else ran scared.

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 07:13 PM
Hold on here.

I agree with TH, that the better PTC is Vazquez than AJ.

But, Daver made the call and like any umpire, he deserves respect for having taken that duty. Heck, I didn't volunteer for it.

If you really want that case of Hamm's that bad, I'll buy it for you, just come to Burlingame to get it.

I think fair and open discussion of most issues is generally accepted on this site. Keep it clean though. Just not the PTC.

Thome's Homey, don't say anything you'll regret.

California Sox
04-08-2006, 07:14 PM
I don't know if Thome's Homey has been banned yet, but if he hasn't, perhaps I can serve as a voice of reason.

Like any society WSI has rules and customs that were here long before you (or I) joined. One of those can basically be summed up as "no bitching about the PTC." Otherwise every postgame would be filled with vitriol over something essentially meaningless. The joke that sums up this rule is a challange to duel by elephant guns. Also, the PTC rules are tilted so a starting pitcher has to be pretty stellar to win. (Otherwise every time the team wins you could argue the starter deserves it.) Most of the time the starter has to earn a W to stand a chance. PTC rules are stuck. I suggest you read them.

Finally, the mods put in a lot of time and hard work to give our community a chance to express itself and they deserve a little respect. I think you'll find this board tolerates a lot of disagreement. I was a FOJR and never got banned. People just don't like it when posters get all hot under the collar about dumb stuff.

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 07:15 PM
If you look back to that first page, everyone was civilly discussing the PTC until that. After that, everyone else ran scared.

Actually, I became disinterested.

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 07:16 PM
I really thought that we were all having a nice discussion.

I thought we were playing quite nicely until someone dropped the still-confusing "elephant gun" comment into it. If you look back to that first page, everyone was civilly discussing the PTC until that. After that, everyone else ran scared.


The elephant gun comment is a reference to the official rules. It also means, IMHO, "My call and done."

Respectfully saying "I disagree." is fine. Ranting about a closed issue is not.

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:17 PM
I really thought that we were all having a nice discussion.

I thought we were playing quite nicely until someone dropped the still-confusing "elephant gun" comment into it. If you look back to that first page, everyone was civilly discussing the PTC until that. After that, everyone else ran scared.

The elephant gun is a running gag here. People who argue about the PTC decision are free to take it to a duel with Daver using elephant guns if they so decide. You will see that comment another 20+ times this season probably.

ODF got a first hand example of how silly it is to make this into something bigger than it is last season. He was leading the standings and decided to take it personally when a few picks went against him. He got the rest of last season off - with about a month to play.

ODF is also someone I know personally in the real world. The only person from WSI who ever visited my now defunct pizza restaurant and someone I consider a friend in the real world as a result. I say all of that because I want there to be no confusion. The PTC is for fun. Anyone who makes it into a life or death issue will not be allowed to participate anymore.

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 07:17 PM
The elephant gun comment is a reference to the official rules. It also means, IMHO, "My call and done."

Has Daver ever reversed one of his calls? I can't remember it ever happening.

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:20 PM
Has Daver ever reversed one of his calls? I can't remember it ever happening.

No...

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 07:24 PM
Has Daver ever reversed one of his calls? I can't remember it ever happening.

I hope not.

Has he ever made a bad call? I would say he wasn't human if he hasn't.

Did he today? Feel free to have your own opinion but keep it to yourself.

The contest is just a contest and with 162 chances to play, I would say one bad call isn't going to affect the ultimate winner. If it does, then be a gentleman (or gentlewoman, as appropriate) and congratulate the winner.

thomas35forever
04-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Thome's Homey, you seemed like a cool person on Opening Night, but you've really gotten yourself into hot water in such a short time. I have a feeling this thread is going to be bumped to the roadhouse. Don't say anything else stupid or we won't be hearing from you agian.

Daver
04-08-2006, 07:38 PM
A few things.

No one has been banned for arguing with the umpire, with the exception of ODF, and that was because he requested it, not because I arbitrarily decided to toss him.

I have never reversed a decision, and I won't until someone defeats me in said duel, elephant guns at a thousand paces. Please see the thread stuck at the top of the PTC forum for further information.

I think I am the only member here that actually OWNS an elephant gun, and I am accurate enough with it to hit a six inch target at two thousand yards, bring your A game if you decide on a duel.

SoxFan76
04-08-2006, 07:42 PM
PTC is all in good fun. Hence the elephant gun references. I wouldn't go with AJ, but hey, who cares?! Tallest midget awards kind of take the sting away from the loss.

Me and FWC got into some "fights" in the What's the Score forum. He didn't ban me. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, just don't be a dick.

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 07:43 PM
I think I am the only member here that actually OWNS an elephant gun, and I am accurate enough with it to hit a six inch target at two thousand yards, bring your A game if you decide on a duel.

NB. Actually, my dad is a gun collector, has one and I have fired his elephant gun. Although never at a target further than about 100 yards. I have hit man sized targets at two-thousand yards with other weapons however. My brother-in-law was a Marine sniper and he's given me some pointers since then.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 07:49 PM
PTC is all in good fun. Hence the elephant gun references. I wouldn't go with AJ, but hey, who cares?! Tallest midget awards kind of take the sting away from the loss.

Me and FWC got into some "fights" in the What's the Score forum. He didn't ban me. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, just don't be a dick.

Absolutely. Those of us who post here frequently often disagree with the mods. I have--more than once--but I've never been banned for it. (Yet!) :rolleyes:

True, once or twice I've seen things tossed into the ****house, and I haven't understood why, but as has been said before, this is not a democracy. And the PTC rules are clearly posted. As are the rules for the other forums. If new members can't take the time to read them, well....

Taliesinrk
04-08-2006, 08:47 PM
To Thomey's Homey:
I know you didn't understand the "elephant gun" reference, but hopefully everyone has cleared up the misunderstanding. Anyway; from reading your posts and what not here the past week or so, you seem like a cool guy, and I'm sure that most (if not all) want you here. Like has been stated before, the "totalitarianists" that run this site do work really hard and should be appreciated. Although I don't always agree with the rules; it's not our call to make... I know I certainly have put in the time or effort that they have to make this what it is. I think they like the fun banter; just not the fights.
I realize that you said that it was just fun before the gun reference, but I think the gun reference was made in fun... don't sweat it. I guess what I'm trying to say is I hope ya stick around cuz the more intelligent Sox fans around here the better!! :gulp:


To someone else:
For my own clarification (because this is the first year I'm trying to do the PTC.. actually I've only been a member since last season, so that would explain it); what is excessive "arguing" about the PTC? Is any allowed at all?

Thanks

CLR01
04-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Besides, CLR01 wins it every year anyway. He already has 3 correct picks!:wink:





You have a problem with that? It's not like I am cheating or anything.:smile:

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 10:10 PM
You have a problem with that? It's not like I am cheating or anything.:smile:

Glad to see you've lowered it from the 25 that was up there a couple days ago.:redneck

CLR01
04-08-2006, 10:25 PM
Glad to see you've lowered it from the 25 that was up there a couple days ago.:redneck

It's like the rabbit at the dog track. Get it to far out in front and the dogs will quit chasing it.:smile:

doublem23
04-08-2006, 10:28 PM
I can't ****ing believe they lost again. I need to go out and not be so angry for the TBGR. :angry:

I'll do it later. I'm sure we're all in a rush to relive this gem.

God dammit. :(:

Brian26
04-08-2006, 10:41 PM
That happens here?

If that's the case, this site isn't worth much to me, and shouldn't be to anyone else. Seemed like a good place full of decent fans, but I may have been wrong.

It's just odd that everyone but Daver thinks the PTC is Vazquez.

Either Daver is wrong, or his baseball knowledge is just so amazingly ahead of everyone else's that no one understands it.

Daver is never wrong. Actually, if you did your homework, you'd find that the Pick To Click criteria, established in 2002, is still available on the site.

Using this criteria, Vasquez doesn't qualify to be the PTC. Since the Sox scored 3 runs or more, and Vasquez didn't pitch a complete game, didn't throw 7 innings of shutout ball, and didn't hold the Royals to less than 5 hits (they got exactly 5 off him), he's not the choice to be the PTC.

Granted, Daver has the right to change these rules anytime, but, as far as I know, this is a template for what he uses in making his choices:



There are two steps in selecting the winning pick to click:1. Qualifying ballplayers to win PTC, and
2. Selecting a winning PTC amongst the qualifiers.

1. Qualifying criteria, by position.Position Players and DH (including the bench)

Qualify to win PTC by contributing significant offensive performance, measured hitting safely, scoring, batting in runs, stealing bases, drawing walks, avoiding strikeouts, advancing runners, avoiding double-plays, not leaving runners on base (especially with two out), etcetera.
Qualify to win by playing a key role in the inning the Sox tie or take the lead, particularly in the late innings.Starting Pitchers

Qualify to win PTC when the Sox score less than 3 runs by allowing less than 3 earned runs while pitching 7+ innings.
Qualify to win PTC when the Sox score 3 or more runs by holding the opposition to less than 5 hits OR pitching a complete game OR pitching 7+ innings of shutout baseball.Relievers

Qualify to win PTC by bailing out a starter who stands to lose, by pitching shutout or near-shutout ball 2+ innings.
Qualify to win PTC by pitching through seemingly impossible relief situations unscathed or nearly-unscathed, including inherited runners.
2. Criteria for selecting the winning PTC.If the opposing team scores less than three runs, the PTC will likely be one of the pitchers.
If the opposing team scores three runs or more, the PTC will likely be one of the position players.
If the opposing team scores exactly three runs, the PTC won't favor either pitchers or position players.



Significant contributions (hitting, pitching, or defense) are weighted more heavily the later in the game they occur.
The inning the Sox take the lead, or come closest to winning, is more heavily weighted than others.
The quality of the opposition, especially the opposing starter, will be considered when weighing PTC. (i.e. scoring three runs on Pedro Martinez is more worthy of consideration than scoring six on Todd Ritchie).
Winning PTC based solely on defensive performance will generally be limited to executing game-saving plays, such as leaping above the wall to catch the opponent's game-winning homerun ball.
To the extent possible, stellar performance in the field will be used to break ties between equally-worthy candidates, including (but not limited to) sensational catches, smart baserunning, turning double plays, cutting down runners, avoiding costly errors, wild pitches, and balks, executing difficult plays, etcetera.
Extra inning games inflate all statistical criteria used in choosing the winning PTC.
Whenever unique circumstances not noted above are weighed in choosing the winning PTC, the WSI umpire will note this fact, either in the winner's box or the game recap itself.

ondafarm
04-08-2006, 11:45 PM
Daver is never wrong. Actually, if you did your homework, you'd find that the Pick To Click criteria, established in 2002, is still available on the site.

Using this criteria, Vasquez doesn't qualify to be the PTC. Since the Sox scored 3 runs or more, and Vasquez didn't pitch a complete game, didn't throw 7 innings of shutout ball, and didn't hold the Royals to less than 5 hits (they got exactly 5 off him), he's not the choice to be the PTC.

Granted, Daver has the right to change these rules anytime, but, as far as I know, this is a template for what he uses in making his choices:

These rules were dispensed with last year when the PTC umpire changed, IIRC. This was a substantial component of my complaints last year.

gobears1987
04-08-2006, 11:56 PM
Of course not...And as you said for AJ, Vazquez certainly deserves a "It wasn't my damn fault." Did AJ win the game?


I have no idea what this means. If it's supposed to be some sort of threat, it's not very effective, as it's just confusing. :dunno:

If it is a threat, it's also kind of silly. Do you ban people for not agreeing with you? Does everything you say stand as indisputible law? Normally, that would take a high level of insecurity. That's censorship not for vulgarity or inappropriateness, but for someone not being your mind-slave...And no one likes censorship of the Gestapo sort. If you ban people for gthat around here, you should most definitely ban me, as that would make you the kind of Sox fan I wouldn't want to be associated with in any way. :D:You're new so you should know. Daver's joke is that when people disagree with him, the dispute is decided by a duel with elephant guns at 1000 paces.

voodoochile
04-09-2006, 10:00 AM
These rules were dispensed with last year when the PTC umpire changed, IIRC. This was a substantial component of my complaints last year.

Not this again... Look... the rules are not the be all and end all of the situation. They are a guidline. The judge is not bound by them. There are other factors at play and the judge can use those factors (turning points in the game, momentum shifts, gut feeling, etc.) to make their decision. The PTC rules are the starting point, but the judge may feel that other factors swing the decision when several players are a possibility. That is more likely in a loss, IMO where because the team lost no one was an actual hero...

soxfanreggie
04-09-2006, 11:16 AM
I have great respect for ALMOST all the mods. I have great respect for Daver for judging the PTC contest. I love the contest because it gives me something else to root for on top of rooting for the best team in baseball. If I somehow win the contest and pull off the biggest upset in sports-beating CLR-I will be happy to donate the case of beer to you Homey, as I do not drink.

I think that Homey brings up a point that many people have wondered. I know that disagreements do happen with certain moderators where they get on you if they do not agree with you, but I have never ever had a problem with Voodoo or Daver-they do encourage Sox fans to express their opinions. Now, talk about "dark clouds" in a PTC thread and you will likely be banned :rolleyes: .

I think that if you have a problem with Davers pick; you should ask him why he chose AJ. I know we have said several reasons why it should be Vaz, but I know Daver knows his Sox and must have a reason for picking AJ. For example, maybe he's a huge closet TNA wrestling fan.:tongue:

Homey, you've made some good points in your short time here. I am a huge Thome fan myself now that he is on the Sox, just be careful not to start burning big bridges for something that really isn't worth it. If you got banned for expressing your opinion, that is a shame, but I doubt it would be from Daver for disagreeing with his PTC. My advice, you've made your point and you do have an argument-this was a tough game to judge-just drop it and I'll buy you a soda pop!

doublem23
04-09-2006, 12:29 PM
TBGR: 4-Game Skid (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=3089)

vomit.