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nasox
04-08-2006, 04:58 PM
Here come the dark clouds....

1951Campbell
04-08-2006, 04:59 PM
Well, fire up the Airplane! quotes and pics...

Uncle_Patrick
04-08-2006, 04:59 PM
Well, that sucked....

gosox3072
04-08-2006, 04:59 PM
I miss winning games

gbergman
04-08-2006, 05:00 PM
can we not pitch to sweeney anymore my God. Vasquez pitched a great game though to bad it got away.

unclegary
04-08-2006, 05:00 PM
Nothing but a World Series Hangover. All will be well in the long run.

0o0o0
04-08-2006, 05:00 PM
This is getting ridiculous. Oh but wait, we won the world series...we're not supposed to care right?

buehrle4cy05
04-08-2006, 05:01 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/shingotime10/airplane-joeyoveurlarge.jpg
"Jimmy, do you like movies about gladiators?"

Please, it's five games into the season.

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 05:01 PM
It would be nice if they showed up for activities other than celebrations of last year. Another listless performance. They went down with a whimper.

WikdChiSoxFan
04-08-2006, 05:01 PM
ridiculous.

ridiculous indeed!!!:angry:

Captian Ron
04-08-2006, 05:01 PM
I feel sick:puking: :puking: :puking:

CaptainBallz
04-08-2006, 05:02 PM
uhhhhh....Sox?

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 05:02 PM
http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/9710/17/elnino/skilling.jpg

There will be a 2 minute break in the wind pattern this afternoon, based on the Sweeney model.

Bobbo35
04-08-2006, 05:02 PM
Man, that was a like a knife to the heart.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-08-2006, 05:02 PM
G R R R R .

OK, now win tomorrow.

Madvora
04-08-2006, 05:02 PM
Does Mike Sweeny hate Chicago?

Law11
04-08-2006, 05:02 PM
So when does the real season start.
Good God these guys cant catch a break.

Hurricane winds for 2 days and the eye of the storm comes when Sweeney decides to hit.

ndu3t4
04-08-2006, 05:03 PM
This is a game where we plane got beat. The past few games are pitchers were hanging things and we were stranding people all over the place, but today, we just got beat. Sure it would have been nice to have some insurance, but Mike Sweeny could bunt at the ball and it would leave the park against us. It sucks, but now I guess I'll have to settle for 158-4.

Also, based on the first five games, Mark, Jose, and Vasquez have looked great. Freddy's gonna come around, and I think Jon would have been a lot better if not for pablo.

0o0o0
04-08-2006, 05:03 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/shingotime10/airplane-joeyoveurlarge.jpg
"Jimmy, do you like movies about gladiators?"

Please, it's five games into the season.
That's not the point. These aren't tough losses. They look bad. It has nothing to do with how many games have been played.

alohafri
04-08-2006, 05:03 PM
It would be nice if they showed up for activities other than celebrations of last year. Another listless performance. They went down with a whimper.

And that is exactly it. They look listless out there. My eighth graders had more energy going into the U.S. Constitution test!

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 05:03 PM
That ball would have left the yard during Hurricane Katrina. The loss had little to do with bad luck.

Uncle_Patrick
04-08-2006, 05:03 PM
Nice outing by Vazquez. Its unfortunate that Politte couldn't step up. The offense looks lathargic. There are good signs here and there, but they can't put it all together. At least Pods finally got a hit.

BanditJimmy
04-08-2006, 05:04 PM
Here come the dark clouds....


At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"

Deebs14
04-08-2006, 05:04 PM
Does Mike Sweeny hate Chicago?

Good question. :dunno:

Patrick134
04-08-2006, 05:04 PM
Politte had the same exact thing happen against sweeney last year. He's a prototypical sox killer. Too bad for Vazquez, but way too premature for gloom and doom. Sure 1-4 looks bad to begin, but every team has 1-4 stretches during the season.

Bobbo35
04-08-2006, 05:04 PM
So when does the real season start.
Good God these guys cant catch a break.

Hurricane winds for 2 days and the eye of the storm comes when Sweeney decides to hit.

Ya, we crushed the ball like 3 times and nothing from it. Sweeney taps the ball and it lays out there. That is the way it is going right now.

downstairs
04-08-2006, 05:04 PM
Hey.... look at the bright side... we have 6 games against Tampa Bay this year... so I gotta believe our record will be at least 5-157.

I can't think of any other team we'll beat even once... unless we get lucky with a rain delay that goofs everyone up...

gbergman
04-08-2006, 05:05 PM
Also, based on the first five games, Mark, Jose, and Vasquez have looked great. Freddy's gonna come around, and I think Jon would have been a lot better if not for pablo.

If not for pablo? Garland still gave up all those hits after that play to allow those runs to score, so dont blame how he pitched on ozuna

Uncle_Patrick
04-08-2006, 05:05 PM
Does Mike Sweeny hate Chicago?

He ought to love Chicago. He seems to do pretty well against the Sox.

Law11
04-08-2006, 05:05 PM
http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/9710/17/elnino/skilling.jpg

There will be a 2 minute break in the wind pattern this afternoon, based on the Sweeney model.

I needed that. Thanks:cool:

Blueprint1
04-08-2006, 05:05 PM
At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"

So to not be a dark cloud should we be happy we lost our 4th game in a row? Should we be happy we just lost our second game in a row to the worst team in baseball? What exactly do we have to be happy about?

0o0o0
04-08-2006, 05:05 PM
At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"
Good question.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:06 PM
The pen's going to have to be addressed. Politte's just not the same pitcher. His 4 seamer hasn't had any life since the 2nd half of last year.

buehrle4cy05
04-08-2006, 05:06 PM
I can't think of any other team we'll beat even once... unless we get lucky with a rain delay that goofs everyone up...

Please tell me that was supposed to be in teal.

nasox
04-08-2006, 05:06 PM
At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"

When they cease to exist.

Cat Thief
04-08-2006, 05:06 PM
And that is exactly it. They look listless out there. My eighth graders had more energy going into the U.S. Constitution test!

AJ being the #1 culprit.

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 05:06 PM
I hate Mike Sweeney...:whiner:

goon
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
He ought to love Chicago. He seems to do pretty well against the Sox.


yeah, the only games he shows up for are against chicago. what a ****. i really do hate him.

Hokiesox
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
0-2 in one run games. Not good.

ChiSoxGirl
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
Nothing but a World Series Hangover. All will be well in the long run.

I'm glad you're so positive, my ever-so optimistic uncle. Your niece is so aggravated right now!!! :angry: It took us until August to lose 4 in a row in 2005; this year the season isn't even a week old and we've dropped 4- three of which are inexcusable.

Timely hitting is gone, the solid work of Politte seems to have gone missing, and why is it that we continue to pitch to Sweeney? Hawk commented that two of the toughest Sox killers were in the ballpark today. We got Thome, so he doesn't kill us anymore... any chance we can land Sweeney, too?! :rolleyes:

buehrle4cy05
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"

Not now, just FIVE games into the season.

pudge
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
Here come the dark clouds....

I guess I'm a dark cloud if I say, a) we have bullpen issues, b) we have tired arm issues throughout the rotation, c) April is critical due to the divisional games and d) we look like garbage against the friggin Royals.

KRS1
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
Hey.... look at the bright side... we have 6 games against Tampa Bay this year... so I gotta believe our record will be at least 5-157.

I can't think of any other team we'll beat even once... unless we get lucky with a rain delay that goofs everyone up...


***, I hope this was intended to be in teal. I can take the loss we had to Cleveland in game two, but the last three losses have me smashing chairs. Turn around time is now gang, get your act together.

WinOrDyeTrying
04-08-2006, 05:07 PM
Here come the dark clouds....

And rightfully so. This team is playing like crap, unquestionably. Wether this is a mark for the rest of the year is speculation, but they need to get a round turn on this soon. Our bullpen is a mess, Pods looks lost at the plate, the defense has been bad, and Dye is injured. If the Sox keep this up, they will finish dead last in the ALC. That, however, will probably not be the case. Never the less the Indians are hungry, the Tigers look good this year, and the Twins are always a threat.

CLR01
04-08-2006, 05:08 PM
At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"

When the people who are ready to jump of a bridge after 5 games or every lose go away diappear.

Uncle_Patrick
04-08-2006, 05:08 PM
So to not be a dark cloud should we be happy we lost our 4th game in a row? Should we be happy we just lost our second game in a row to the worst team in baseball? What exactly do we have to be happy about?

To not be be a dark cloud means to not jump off a bridge after losing 4 out of the first 5 games of the season. Its ok to be upset with the way they played. There's a difference with being upset with the way a team performs and being a dark cloud.

A.T. Money
04-08-2006, 05:08 PM
Don't worry, it's only been (insert number here) games!

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 05:08 PM
We are lossing to the bs Royals, who were absolutely owned by the Tigers. No more excuses or saying "it's just early". The Royals suck.

Teams looking to win the World Series don't lose to the AAA team in Kansas City.

0o0o0
04-08-2006, 05:09 PM
Don't worry, it's only been (insert number here) games!
Yeah, that's getting real old real fast.

Lip Man 1
04-08-2006, 05:10 PM
These guys should be 4-1....instead 1-4. Two blown games, two one run losses.

This bullpen sucks and has since spring training.

Mike Sweeney...big surprise.

That Detroit series is looking bigger and bigger. If these guys don't get their heads out of their asses they'll be five or six out by next week.

Uncle Patrick please define the difference between a 'dark cloud' and being 'concerned.' All of the posters are concerned otherwise they wouldn't bother to say anything.

Great start for the World Champions.

That's all for me.

Lip

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 05:10 PM
Don't worry, it's only been (5) games!

Fixed your post...

Okay, it's officially halftime of the first football game of the season...

Bears are down a touchdown. I guess it's time to quit on the season...:rolleyes:

veeter
04-08-2006, 05:10 PM
That ball would have left the yard during Hurricane Katrina. The loss had little to do with bad luck.The guy hit the ball with one hand, off of his front foot. Give me a break. Uribe and Crede hit rockets to left that are held up. Terrible pitch by Vasquez to Sanders. Joe can't hit into that DP in the eighth. If in the middle of the season this would be hidden. But a crappy way to start the title defense. The media is going to eat this up.

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 05:10 PM
I say that today is: This is Spinal Tap! day.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:JMzVz1RvVLLy3M:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5d/Cguest.jpg/180px-Cguest.jpg

You can't really dust for vomit.

buehrle4cy05
04-08-2006, 05:10 PM
The breaks are going to end up going our way sometime this year, everybody. They haven't in the past three games.

slowlearner
04-08-2006, 05:12 PM
"You can't win a pennant in April-- but you can lose one"

ShoelessJoeS
04-08-2006, 05:12 PM
To sum up this game in one word: un****ingbelievable

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 05:13 PM
The Sweeney home run was a line drive that left the yard in a flash. How was that bad luck?

Saying the wind prevented our "home runs" is pure speculation. Good teams make their own luck.

goon
04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
i still hate mike sweeney.



dye, please for the love of god, play tomorrow.

Jjav829
04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
At what point do we STOP using the term "dark clouds?"

Never, probably. It has been taken completely out of context, as well. It was first started last year when the Sox had the best record in baseball and were just cruising along during May and June, yet some people would still complain about one loss here or there. Ever since then people just started throwing out the term "dark cloud" whenever someone expressed a legitimate concern, as if anything other than complete optimism should not enter our minds. :rolleyes:

Anyways, as for the game...

Good start by Vazquez. I had a feeling he would do well, though I thought he'd get a win.

This team is just finding ways to lose games so far. One game it's the starting pitching, the next it's the hitting, the next it's the defense, the next it's the bullpen, etc. They just don't look good right now. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get concerned. I hate slow starts. In the past few years, slow starts always killed us. Last year we got off to a great start. This year it's the same slow start ****. I keep telling myself that this is a different team and the talent will eventually show, but I'm definitely not liking what I am seeing so far.

Through 5 games only 1 Sox player has hit a home run. One! That's pretty bad.

soxfanatlanta
04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
Please don't let KC sweep us

Please don't let KC sweep us

Please don't let KC sweep us

Please don't let KC sweep us

Please don't let KC sweep us

CLR01
04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
It would be interesting to go back and compare all of the dark cloud posters this year to the ones who tried to over run this board back in August and September. I bet many of them are the same.



:gulp:Here's to being a "realist". :rolleyes:

WinOrDyeTrying
04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
Theres nothing unlucky about Crede ****ing up the rally with bases loaded, 1 out. Last year, they would have gotten in at least two runs more in that inning.

buehrle4cy05
04-08-2006, 05:15 PM
Cliff Politte did not throw a bad pitch. Sweeney's hack looked awful, but he somehow was able to get the bat head out and hit it. That's part luck, and part Sweeney being a damn good hitter. I don't blame Politte for it. The way Cliff set the at-bat up, a changeup there was the right pitch to throw. He threw it low and away, the perfect location for it.

socko82
04-08-2006, 05:15 PM
This is reminding of the start of 2001. Coming off the division title with sky high expectations, won the opener and then fell apart. Got swept twice in the first 3 weeks by the Twins that year and were buried by the end of April.
They better wake up quick or they could be 7 or 8 behind the Tribe/Tigers by May 1.

0o0o0
04-08-2006, 05:15 PM
Never, probably. It has been taken completely out of context, as well. It was first started last year when the Sox had the best record in baseball and were just cruising along during May and June, yet some people would still complain about one loss here or there. Ever since then people just started throwing out the term "dark cloud" whenever someone expressed a legitimate concern, as if anything other than complete optimism should not enter our minds. :rolleyes:
Thank you!!!

buehrle4cy05
04-08-2006, 05:15 PM
It would be interesting to go back and compare all of the dark cloud posters this year to the ones who tried to over run this board back in August and September. I bet many of them are the same.



:gulp:Here's to being a "realist". :rolleyes:

Ah, they're just making up for lost time in October.

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 05:15 PM
yeah, the only games he shows up for are against chicago.

Uh, not really. He's a career .300 hitter, which by your logic, would mean he hits 4.982 against us.

Wait... you might be right.

Mr. White Sox
04-08-2006, 05:16 PM
Check out Sweeney's career stats against the White Sox:

G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS


110 394 64 127 26 28 90 47 51 .322 .395 .602 .996




That's not including this game.
Umm, sick?

Huisj
04-08-2006, 05:17 PM
And rightfully so. This team is playing like crap, unquestionably. Wether this is a mark for the rest of the year is speculation, but they need to get a round turn on this soon. Our bullpen is a mess, Pods looks lost at the plate, the defense has been bad, and Dye is injured. If the Sox keep this up, they will finish dead last in the ALC. That, however, will probably not be the case. Never the less the Indians are hungry, the Tigers look good this year, and the Twins are always a threat.

And if you go by what Harrelson says about KC, that's a team of future hall of famers. Everybody they throw out onto the field is either real impressive because they hit a ball hard in spring training or hit a 2-mile high popup in spring training or because their stuff is just nasty filthy, or they're a quality veteran who brings leadership and direction and makes the young guys even better.

I'm so sick of the Sox announcers whining out excuse after excuse about how other players on other teams are so good and how the sox just were a couple of unlucky breaks away from winning. Admit it--the Sox are playing like crap. It's as if corpseball has come back from the dead. How long can a freaking "world series hangover" last? I thought they said they would leave that behind when they got out on the road this weekend, but no. This team looks like it's exactly the opposite of last years early season team. There is very little timely hitting, batters look like they're constantly trying to kill the ball (either that or they strike out looking), the defense is pathetic, and the pitching is very shakey.

I know that people will use teams like recent oakland teams or Houston last year for examples of how it doesn't matter what kind of start you get off to, but I'd bet that for every example like that, you could find 15 examples of teams that sucked out of the gate and didn't recover enough to overcome it.

Deebs14
04-08-2006, 05:18 PM
Check out Sweeney's career stats against the White Sox:

G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS


110 394 64 127 26 28 90 47 51 .322 .395 .602 .996




That's not including this game.
Umm, sick?

That's ****ing insane. :mad:

Frankfan4life
04-08-2006, 05:18 PM
These guys should be 4-1....instead 1-4. Two blown games, two one run losses.

This bullpen sucks and has since spring training.

Mike Sweeney...big surprise.

That Detroit series is looking bigger and bigger. If these guys don't get their heads out of their asses they'll be five or six out by next week.

Uncle Patrick please define the difference between a 'dark cloud' and being 'concerned.' All of the posters are concerned otherwise they wouldn't bother to say anything.

Great start for the World Champions.

That's all for me.

LipYour post pretty much says it all for me.

Jjav829
04-08-2006, 05:19 PM
It would be interesting to go back and compare all of the dark cloud posters this year to the ones who tried to over run this board back in August and September. I bet many of them are the same.



:gulp:Here's to being a "realist". :rolleyes:

Define "dark cloud." I haven't seen a single "dark cloud" yet. I haven't seen anyone say that the season is over or that we aren't going to repeat. So show me all the "dark clouds." The only thing I see in this thread are people correctly pointing out that this team is playing like crap right now and should not be losing games to the Royals.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:20 PM
Cliff Politte did not throw a bad pitch. Sweeney's hack looked awful, but he somehow was able to get the bat head out and hit it. That's part luck, and part Sweeney being a damn good hitter. I don't blame Politte for it. The way Cliff set the at-bat up, a changeup there was the right pitch to throw. He threw it low and away, the perfect location for it.

I don't care what DJ said. It was a hanging slider and it was crushed.

WinOrDyeTrying
04-08-2006, 05:20 PM
:therapy:

goon
04-08-2006, 05:20 PM
Check out Sweeney's career stats against the White Sox:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS


110 394 64 127 26 0 28 90 47 51 5 5 .322 .395 .602 .996




That's not including this game.
Umm, sick?


looks like i dont really have to reply now i guess. he's also missed quite a few games over the years. how many of his total home runs last year came against the sox? i think it was like 20%. yes, i stand by my statement.

Chicken Dinner
04-08-2006, 05:24 PM
I thought spring training was over.

BanditJimmy
04-08-2006, 05:24 PM
How much of this bad start this year is an attribute of guys pretty much not getting a chance to play together for most of the spring?

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 05:25 PM
How much of this bad start this year is an attribute of guys pretty much not getting a chance to play together for most of the spring?

You could also rephrase and ask how much that helped us last year. The biggest concern right now should be the bullpen. It looks really, really weak.

The Racehorse
04-08-2006, 05:26 PM
As every World Series Champion playing the following year can attest to, this is the life of having a BULLSEYE on your chest.

I'm no dark-cloud, but the Sox could really use a win tomorrow.

Patrick134
04-08-2006, 05:27 PM
Let's put a moratorium on posts that say " last year this wouldnt have happened " or "last year ***** gets a hit in that situation" Not only is it dumb it's not true. The sox had plenty of dud games last year ( and i'm not just talking about september). It also seems that plenty of people are taking the season for granted and placing the sox in the playoffs. When you're the champs, everyone gets up to play you, be it KC or the Yankees, theres no more flying under the radar. If you start wanting to push the panic button now, you're not too astute of a baseball fan.

JB98
04-08-2006, 05:27 PM
How much of this bad start this year is an attribute of guys pretty much not getting a chance to play together for most of the spring?

A lot. We're not clicking. When we pitch well, we don't hit. When we hit well, we don't pitch. Defensively, we've had lapses. The bullpen has blown two games in eighth innings. It's frustrating. Maybe we got a little too confident. If so, this first week has been like a punch in the nuts. Sometimes, the game humbles you. Right now, we're getting our butts kicked by the Royals, and it's humbling.

goon
04-08-2006, 05:28 PM
i... still hate mike sweeney?


yeah, yeah i do.

MrRoboto83
04-08-2006, 05:29 PM
If we get beat tomorrow and get swept by the Royals I will be offically sick.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:29 PM
You could also rephrase and ask how much that helped us last year. The biggest concern right now should be the bullpen. It looks really, really weak.

Not only the pen, but the COF. Pods doesn't have that explosiveness. I don't see him being able to put alot of pressure on opposing pitchers.

Here's some irony... We'd be a better team if we made the moves that the Cubs made.

BanditJimmy
04-08-2006, 05:30 PM
Define "dark cloud." I haven't seen a single "dark cloud" yet. I haven't seen anyone say that the season is over or that we aren't going to repeat. So show me all the "dark clouds." The only thing I see in this thread are people correctly pointing out that this team is playing like crap right now and should not be losing games to the Royals.


I agree 100%

I am all for people being positive. But some people are still caught up in what happened in 2005 with the World Series and see nothing wrong with a 1 - 4 start (including 2 losses to a bad Royals team).


It is 2006 folks, let's turn the page and start judging this team on a day by day basis. Right now we SUCK!!! === nothing "Dark Cloud" about that.

Cuck the Fubs
04-08-2006, 05:33 PM
I have now moved my status to "officially concerned".

If they lose the Tigers series, we could find ourselves in some really, really deep trouble here.

CaptainBallz
04-08-2006, 05:33 PM
Let's put a moratorium on posts that say " last year this wouldnt have happened " or "last year ***** gets a hit in that situation" Not only is it dumb it's not true. The sox had plenty of dud games last year ( and i'm not just talking about september). It also seems that plenty of people are taking the season for granted and placing the sox in the playoffs. When you're the champs, everyone gets up to play you, be it KC or the Yankees, theres no more flying under the radar. If you start wanting to push the panic button now, you're not too astute of a baseball fan.

Thank you.

BanditJimmy
04-08-2006, 05:33 PM
As every World Series Champion playing the following year can attest to, this is the life of having a BULLSEYE on your chest.

I'm no dark-cloud, but the Sox could really use a win tomorrow.

I agree about the whole BULLSEYE thing .... but a team like the Royals should miss that BULLSEYE even one the size of Texas.

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 05:34 PM
If you want to say everything will be alright, we'll surely bounce back later then you haven't been a Sox fan for too long. It's not that they are losing. It is how and to whom.

The bullpen has failed in the last three losses. The last two games they blew numerous leads to the ROYALS, a team with perhaps 5 major league caliber hitters. If that's not a cause for concern I'm not sure what is. This team is built around it's pitching. A weak pen = a lost season.

Dan H
04-08-2006, 05:34 PM
So to not be a dark cloud should we be happy we lost our 4th game in a row? Should we be happy we just lost our second game in a row to the worst team in baseball? What exactly do we have to be happy about?

I agree. The season certainly isn't over during the first week of April, but the Sox won these games last year. No way am I smiling during a four game losing streak especially when two are against main rival Cleveland and two against the AAA Royals.

viagracat
04-08-2006, 05:34 PM
http://www.tigersweat.com/movies/animal/anim15s.jpg

"All is well!!!"

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:35 PM
If you want to say everything will be alright, we'll surely bounce back later then you haven't been a Sox fan for too long. It's not that they are losing. It is how and to whom.

The bullpen has failed in the last three losses. The last two games they blew numerous leads to the ROYALS, a team with perhaps 5 major league caliber hitters. If that's not a cause for concern I'm not sure what is. This team is built around it's pitching. A weak pen = a lost season.

Okay n00b. :rolleyes:

soxfan13
04-08-2006, 05:36 PM
Think I am gonna get back on that ledge that I was on last Sept.

JB98
04-08-2006, 05:37 PM
And if you go by what Harrelson says about KC, that's a team of future hall of famers. Everybody they throw out onto the field is either real impressive because they hit a ball hard in spring training or hit a 2-mile high popup in spring training or because their stuff is just nasty filthy, or they're a quality veteran who brings leadership and direction and makes the young guys even better.

I'm so sick of the Sox announcers whining out excuse after excuse about how other players on other teams are so good and how the sox just were a couple of unlucky breaks away from winning. Admit it--the Sox are playing like crap. It's as if corpseball has come back from the dead. How long can a freaking "world series hangover" last? I thought they said they would leave that behind when they got out on the road this weekend, but no. This team looks like it's exactly the opposite of last years early season team. There is very little timely hitting, batters look like they're constantly trying to kill the ball (either that or they strike out looking), the defense is pathetic, and the pitching is very shakey.

I know that people will use teams like recent oakland teams or Houston last year for examples of how it doesn't matter what kind of start you get off to, but I'd bet that for every example like that, you could find 15 examples of teams that sucked out of the gate and didn't recover enough to overcome it.

I agree about Harrelson. He made excuse after excuse for Konerko when he failed to pick up that grounder Brown hit in the eighth. I don't care how hard it was hit. It was hit right to him. Make the ****ing play, Paulie.

samram
04-08-2006, 05:39 PM
Never, probably. It has been taken completely out of context, as well. It was first started last year when the Sox had the best record in baseball and were just cruising along during May and June, yet some people would still complain about one loss here or there. Ever since then people just started throwing out the term "dark cloud" whenever someone expressed a legitimate concern, as if anything other than complete optimism should not enter our minds. :rolleyes:

Anyways, as for the game...

Good start by Vazquez. I had a feeling he would do well, though I thought he'd get a win.

This team is just finding ways to lose games so far. One game it's the starting pitching, the next it's the hitting, the next it's the defense, the next it's the bullpen, etc. They just don't look good right now. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't starting to get concerned. I hate slow starts. In the past few years, slow starts always killed us. Last year we got off to a great start. This year it's the same slow start ****. I keep telling myself that this is a different team and the talent will eventually show, but I'm definitely not liking what I am seeing so far.

Through 5 games only 1 Sox player has hit a home run. One! That's pretty bad.

Good post. I don't see why anyone who expresses any concern is labeled as giving up on the season. The team isn't playing well. They've had two decent starts from the pitching staff, almost no ability to get a clutch hit, and poor performances from the bullpen. It's time to start playing.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:39 PM
I agree about Harrelson. He made excuse after excuse for Konerko when he failed to pick up that grounder Brown hit in the eighth. I don't care how hard it was hit. It was hit right to him. Make the ****ing play, Paulie.


Come on. It's common knowledge that Hawk's always been a blowhard who doesn't really give good analysis. He's like a cliche machine with 100 phrases and the same 8 stories.

Jjav829
04-08-2006, 05:41 PM
If you want to say everything will be alright, we'll surely bounce back later then you haven't been a Sox fan for too long. It's not that they are losing. It is how and to whom.

The bullpen has failed in the last three losses. The last two games they blew numerous leads to the ROYALS, a team with perhaps 5 major league caliber hitters. If that's not a cause for concern I'm not sure what is. This team is built around it's pitching. A weak pen = a lost season.

Ehh, thanks for blowing my whole argument about this not being a "dark cloud" thread.

Just for the record, this is more how I would define a "dark cloud." Expressing concern is one thing, but saying that the season is lost because our bullpen is bad is a little over the edge.

I do agree that the bullpen has been bad. I didn't really expect much, though. I figured the bullpen would be weak for the start of the season. My hope entering the season (and it's still my hope), is that the starting pitching and offense carries us through until June/July and then KW makes a move or two to solidy the pen for the stretch run.

goon
04-08-2006, 05:41 PM
Come on. It's common knowledge that Hawk's always been a blowhard who doesn't really give good analysis. He's like a cliche machine with 100 phrases and the same 8 stories.


i think maybe you just need to cinch it up and hunker down.

EndemicSox
04-08-2006, 05:41 PM
I'll gives these guys 6-8 weeks before panicking. Our pitching is built around ending slumps such as these. Nevertheless, its going to take 90-95+ to make the playoffs, so the sooner the Sox pick it up, the better. Kenny Williams better be on the phone working out some type of deal for bullpen help.

Deebs14
04-08-2006, 05:42 PM
i think maybe you just need to cinch it up and hunker down.

:roflmao:

veeter
04-08-2006, 05:42 PM
The most irritating thing in the whole losing sequence, was Mark Greuihfuihfiudsfhuik's little bloooper with that goofy ass swing of his. I hate THAT guy!!

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:43 PM
i think maybe you just need to cinch it up and hunker down.

I'm just being a heinybird.

Jjav829
04-08-2006, 05:44 PM
i think maybe you just need to cinch it up and hunker down.

I think TaylorStSox just needs to bow his neck. That'll get him in the cat-bird seat.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:44 PM
The most irritating thing in the whole losing sequence, was Mark Greuihfuihfiudsfhuik's little bloooper with that goofy ass swing of his. I hate THAT guy!!

It reminded me Pods' hit.

JB98
04-08-2006, 05:44 PM
Come on. It's common knowledge that Hawk's always been a blowhard who doesn't really give good analysis. He's like a cliche machine with 100 phrases and the same 8 stories.

You're right, TaylorSt. But you have to understand I'm used to muting the TV. For the last 15 or so years, I've been listening to John Rooney on the radio. But since I can't stand the tandem of Farmio and Singleton, I'm back to listening to Hawk. I attended our first two games of the season at the Cell, but these last three games have been bad baseball and a ****load of excuses from Harrelson. It's been a rough adjustment for me.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 05:47 PM
You're right, TaylorSt. But you have to understand I'm used to muting the TV. For the last 15 or so years, I've been listening to John Rooney on the radio. But since I can't stand the tandem of Farmio and Singleton, I'm back to listening to Hawk. I attended our first two games of the season at the Cell, but these last three games have been bad baseball and a ****load of excuses from Harrelson. It's been a rough adjustment for me.

I'm right there with you man. The radio broadcast is tolerable when Singleton's doing color. When Farmer makes him do some PBP, it's hard to sit through.

When I listen to Hawk, I keep myself entertained by finishing his sentences for him.

veeter
04-08-2006, 05:47 PM
It reminded me Pods' hit. Pod's hit his on the barrell.

JoeClutch24
04-08-2006, 05:51 PM
We lost, but how bout that performance from a 5th starter. Good to see all the Sox fans at the game today. Everybody needs to settle down if this September then we could all be pissed. There are no dark clouds we WILL be ok. Just wait till we rattle off 12 in a row or so once we get hot. No need to panic boys and girls!

Taliesinrk
04-08-2006, 05:53 PM
Pod's hit his on the barrell.

yeah.. Pods hit did not compare to Mark GIFDSA*R#EQHJE#QF*EWQFEAWJik's hit

WSox8404
04-08-2006, 05:54 PM
We lost, but how bout that performance from a 5th starter. Good to see all the Sox fans at the game today. Everybody needs to settle down if this September then we could all be pissed. There are no dark clouds we WILL be ok. Just wait till we rattle off 12 in a row or so once we get hot. No need to panic boys and girls!

To me Javier is our number three. Garland and Garcia make up 4 and 5 in no particular order.

Chicken Dinner
04-08-2006, 05:57 PM
OK we had 6 hits and 6 walks and only scored 3 runs. Denny Bautista 1 hits us through 6 innings. We have left way too many on base.

Vernam
04-08-2006, 05:58 PM
The most irritating thing in the whole losing sequence, was Mark Greuihfuihfiudsfhuik's little bloooper with that goofy ass swing of his. I hate THAT guy!!My vote goes for Sweeney's HR. When will Sox pitchers stop letting him beat us? It's not like the guys behind him are fearsome hitters. That was one piss poor changeup Politte threw.

I'm nowhere near panicking, but it sure feels like mid-August all over again. :o:

Vernam

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 05:58 PM
I'm not sure how saying a bad bullpen will derail a season kills your argument. I've seen nothing from this revamped pen to give me much optimism.

The Sox are better than this, but if they don't wake up soon they could dig themselves a hole that won't be easy to climb out of. The division is better and the pressure is worse this year.

Time for Mark to stepup in his home state and make the bullpen a moot point.

PaulDrake
04-08-2006, 05:59 PM
This is reminding of the start of 2001. Coming off the division title with sky high expectations, won the opener and then fell apart. Got swept twice in the first 3 weeks by the Twins that year and were buried by the end of April.
They better wake up quick or they could be 7 or 8 behind the Tribe/Tigers by May 1. Yes, I've already posted as much. They are reminding me of the 2001 Sox who dug themselves too deep a hole to dig themselves out of. I'm too old to care what I get labeled here or anywhere else for that matter. Still, you have to have your pollyanna rose colored glasses on not to be concerned. Losing is one thing, the way they are losing and who they are losing to is quite another. Yes it is too early to throw in the towel, but time is short. The division is improved. No matter what happens 2005 will always be great, but it's in the rear view mirror now. Time to get real serious now.

JoeClutch24
04-08-2006, 06:00 PM
The KC weathermen say no wind tomorrow. We would've had 3 if it wasn't for the wind (Crede, Uribe, and Thome). I also sat behind the most obnoxious guy too. "Podsednik has nuthin, Oh ****."

LongLiveFisk
04-08-2006, 06:00 PM
My vote goes for Sweeney's HR. When will Sox pitchers stop letting him beat us? It's not like the guys behind him are fearsome hitters. That was one piss poor changeup Politte threw.

Yeah, he always comes up big in clutch situations against the Sox. Walk the guy and make the next twerp get a big hit for once. I'm willing to bet it doesn't happen.

Chicken Dinner
04-08-2006, 06:02 PM
Yeah, he always comes up big in clutch situations against the Sox. Walk the guy and make the next twerp get a big hit for once. I'm willing to bet it doesn't happen.

If Ozzie doesn't walk Berkman in the World Series I doubt if he'll walk Sweeney

Taliesinrk
04-08-2006, 06:03 PM
Yeah, he always comes up big in clutch situations against the Sox. Walk the guy and make the next twerp get a big hit for once. I'm willing to bet it doesn't happen.

look.. i know he has killed the Sox ppl; but *****. They had two strikes on him, and it was a ball low and away. Sweeney pulled it into the wind. Good pitch, one hell of a job of hitting. That's it. I guarentee they throw that same pitch w/ the same count and situation again..

in fact... for the record: Doug Meieiafdsakht and Reggie Sanders sure as hell aren't double A ball players. You put the tying run in scoring position there in order to go to them.. w/ 2 strikes? neah..

JoeClutch24
04-08-2006, 06:05 PM
Sweeney:The Real American Sox Killer!

Brian26
04-08-2006, 06:05 PM
Nice outing by Vazquez. Its unfortunate that Politte couldn't step up. The offense looks lathargic. There are good signs here and there, but they can't put it all together. At least Pods finally got a hit.

Bases loaded and one out....you need to score a run or two. I knew we were in trouble when Crede hit into that DP and couldn't get any insurance runs in.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 06:08 PM
My vote goes for Sweeney's HR. When will Sox pitchers stop letting him beat us? It's not like the guys behind him are fearsome hitters. That was one piss poor changeup Politte threw.

Actually, it was a great pitch by Politte. Sweeney just beat him. Give credit where credit is due.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 06:08 PM
Well, I haven't read the thread yet--just got home--but obviously volleyball practice was the way to go today. Where I went wrong was turning on the radio when I got in the car. :(:

Well, let's get 'em tomorrow, guys! And look at it this way--would you rather they do what they're doing right now or do what Cleveland did the last week of last season?

Time for a :gulp:.

soxfanreggie
04-08-2006, 06:08 PM
Sweeney absolutely kills us.

For all those who say, "why worry now." Well, I'll give you the reason. Winning game 1 or game 162 means the same thing. The reason we didn't give away the central last year was because we won so many games earlier. We had built up such a lead from winning EARLY games that we couldn't be overtaken. I would hate to start the season going 2-8 or 3-7 and digging ourselves into a little hole. It would be especially bad if another team started 8-2 or 9-1 and got out to a hot start the first few months. For those who say "Don't worry, it's only April." don't really understand the importance of every game.

I think we can take away a positive that Javier is going to move up to be a top 3 starter IMO. He has the stuff and showed it today. Let's hope that MB and JC can get us back on track. They are our most consistent pitchers and can help us get out of this funk. But, we also can't rely on Thome as most of our offense. Anderson has impressed me in CF, but c'mon PK. Show us why we signed you to a nice contract. Send one out of the park! Last night, to start the game, everyone got involved, but then we got outscored 11-1 by the Royals...ugh!

We need to get out of this funk and need to now!

thomas35forever
04-08-2006, 06:11 PM
I know we haven't seen the last of Mike Sweeney. He's just going to keep killing us for years to come, and there's not much that can be done about it.:angry:

Buehrle, please win tomorrow.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 06:15 PM
Check out Sweeney's career stats against the White Sox:

G AB R H 2B HR RBI BB K AVG OBP SLG OPS


110 394 64 127 26 28 90 47 51 .322 .395 .602 .996




That's not including this game.
Umm, sick?

Sick, yes. But it's just a statistical coincidence...an anomaly.... There's no scientific reason why Mike Sweeney kills the White Sox. The players over the course of the years have changed. The Sox pitching staff has turned over three times since he came into the league. There's no reason why Sweeney hits so well against people in the Sox uniform.

TaylorStSox
04-08-2006, 06:17 PM
Actually, it was a great pitch by Politte. Sweeney just beat him. Give credit where credit is due.

I watched it a few times and it looked like a slider that didn't bite.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 06:18 PM
Teams looking to win the World Series don't lose to the AAA team in Kansas City.

That's why we got our asses handed to us at Kaufman last August? And that was a team without Sanders, Grudz, and Sweeney was still coming off the DL. One series doesn't mean the world.

Chisox003
04-08-2006, 06:19 PM
We're lacking the fire we had last year. There's no attitude with this team, no "prove them wrong" mentality.

And it's showing.

The Indians - Got it
The Tigers - Got it
Hell, even the Royals - Got it

Whatever it is, they have through this first week. Whatever it is, we had through the entirety of last season.

This team thus far, however, does not.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 06:21 PM
Good God these guys cant catch a break.

Actually we caught a huge break when Pierzynski smashed a ball right at Mienkiewitz that could have easily been an inning-ending double play (when the bases were loaded with one out). Instead, we score a run to tie the game and nobody was out on the play. Luck had nothing to do with today's loss. It's the lack of situational hitting that killed us...ie Crede's double play ball to end that 8th inning rally.

Taliesinrk
04-08-2006, 06:24 PM
Actually we caught a huge break when Pierzynski smashed a ball right at Mienkiewitz that could have easily been an inning-ending double play (when the bases were loaded with one out). Instead, we score a run to tie the game and nobody was out on the play. Luck had nothing to do with today's loss. It's the lack of situational hitting that killed us...ie Crede's double play ball to end that 8th inning rally.

yeah.. i mean maybe that's it.. maybe our hitters just take for granted a one-run lead post-6th inning is a win.. it was last year. our pen last year was that way, but it hasn't been so thus far.

wassagstdu
04-08-2006, 06:24 PM
Crede just can NOT hit in the clutch!

.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 06:26 PM
Sweeney absolutely kills us.

For all those who say, "why worry now." Well, I'll give you the reason. Winning game 1 or game 162 means the same thing. The reason we didn't give away the central last year was because we won so many games earlier. We had built up such a lead from winning EARLY games that we couldn't be overtaken. I would hate to start the season going 2-8 or 3-7 and digging ourselves into a little hole. It would be especially bad if another team started 8-2 or 9-1 and got out to a hot start the first few months. For those who say "Don't worry, it's only April." don't really understand the importance of every game.

I think we can take away a positive that Javier is going to move up to be a top 3 starter IMO. He has the stuff and showed it today. Let's hope that MB and JC can get us back on track. They are our most consistent pitchers and can help us get out of this funk. But, we also can't rely on Thome as most of our offense. Anderson has impressed me in CF, but c'mon PK. Show us why we signed you to a nice contract. Send one out of the park! Last night, to start the game, everyone got involved, but then we got outscored 11-1 by the Royals...ugh! We need to get out of this funk and need to now!

Beg to differ, but we came very damn close to being overtaken last year despite the early lead. Don't get me wrong; I'd rather we were winning. But Paulie will hit his HRs and our pitching will be there. I'd still rather be us than anyone else in the league.

Chisox003
04-08-2006, 06:32 PM
Beg to differ, but we came very damn close to being overtaken last year despite the early lead.
:?:

Yes, but if we didn't win last April we would have been over taken

Either way, the division is better this year than it ever has been, and come late September if we're down 2 or 3 games, which ones do you think we'll be looking back on and saying "If only..."?

Example:
If only we didn't blow that lead in the 8th inning against the Indians....
If only we didn't blow that 6 run lead we had against Kansas City...

mike squires
04-08-2006, 06:32 PM
Even though we lost today, it reminds me why I love baseball. It's such a zany game. You never know what's going to happen.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 06:35 PM
So to not be a dark cloud should we be happy we lost our 4th game in a row? Should we be happy we just lost our second game in a row to the worst team in baseball? What exactly do we have to be happy about?

Anybody want to take that one? Bueller? :o:

LongLiveFisk
04-08-2006, 06:36 PM
look.. i know he has killed the Sox ppl; but *****. They had two strikes on him, and it was a ball low and away. Sweeney pulled it into the wind. Good pitch, one hell of a job of hitting. That's it. I guarentee they throw that same pitch w/ the same count and situation again..

Oh I'll admit I didn't even see the at-bat when it happened. I was just saying this guy kills us probably worse than any other player I can think of, especially in clutch situations.

Flying Swede
04-08-2006, 06:40 PM
Politte went 1-2 on every batter he faced today, he must have felt bad for them afterwards and decided to give them something to hit. I want to jump off a cliff!

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 06:42 PM
Define "dark cloud." I haven't seen a single "dark cloud" yet. I haven't seen anyone say that the season is over or that we aren't going to repeat. So show me all the "dark clouds." The only thing I see in this thread are people correctly pointing out that this team is playing like crap right now and should not be losing games to the Royals.

Second that!

"You can't win a pennant in April-- but you can lose one" Nice first post. Can't wait for the next one!

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 06:56 PM
Okay, just like we cannot assume the Sox will play like 2005 out of the gate, it seems silly to assume the Royals are completely unimproved too. Bautista made some good pitches today and I for one was happy to see him gone. Vazquez pitched great so we got that going for us. Hopefully the offense will start to wake up and the rest of the pitching will get fired up from Javier's performance and the Sox will get it together sooner rather than later, but right now as bad as things are they still aren't bad.

Time will tell if this is a trend or an aberation caused by a number of reasons that have been pointed out, just breath everybody, not a damned thing we can do by getting ourselves worked up anyway...

Defense has been solid, a couple of pitches either way and the Sox are 3-2 or even 4-1 right now. They aren't - sucks to be us. Let's see how they respond.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 06:58 PM
:?:

Yes, but if we didn't win last April we would have been over taken


You don't know that. Our lead sharply deteriorated, but we stepped up. Maybe if we'd been tied with--or a game or two behind--the Tribe, we would've stepped up (as they didn't). Or maybe we wouldn't. That is useless speculation.

Last year, the Indians damn near caught us and could have, and the fact that we won early while they were playing like **** did not determine the outcome of the season. Just as who wins early and who is playing like **** does not predetermine the outcome of THIS season. Fact is, you just don't know who will get hot when. It's a cliche, but that doesn't mean it isn't true; THAT's why they play the games.

ChiSoxIn06
04-08-2006, 07:00 PM
Nice first post. Can't wait for the next one!

why are you giving him attitude... i totally agree with him...if the sox dont get thier **** together soon this is going to be a real long season.

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 07:00 PM
I seem to remember Cleveland dropping it's chance to win the AL Central in Kaufmann last September. We need to take care of business against the Royals. That's what good teams do. I'm not worried about the losing streak. As I said earlier, it's not the streak but how they are losing and to whom.

paciorek1983
04-08-2006, 07:01 PM
We stink!!!!!!!!!!!:whiner:

Chisox003
04-08-2006, 07:02 PM
Defense has been solid, a couple of pitches either way and the Sox are 3-2 or even 4-1 right now. They aren't - sucks to be us. Let's see how they respond.
I agree up until that point, in which case I think just the opposite....

Pablo Ozuna, Brian Anderson, and Rob Mackowiak does not = Podsednik, Rowand and Dye. We need to get these guys back in there (healthy), because the OF defense has been horrendous.

Our starting pitching has been fine, and will be better, no doubt about that.
A healthy Dye and Podsednik will result in a MUCH better lineup and obviously a better D, no doubt about that.

The bullpen is, and has been for a few weeks, the biggest conern, and until it proves it can hold a damn lead, it shall remain our biggest question mark.

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 07:07 PM
It's going to be tough to get Rowand in there, but I don't think the poor outfield defense has anything to do with Anderson.

Mack looked good too. Other than the Ozuna gaffes it hasn't been the defense. The pitching needs some work. And hopefully Pods jump starts the offense.

These losses are just so frustrating because the Sox are better than this. Hopefully Ozzie rips them, and they unload on the hapless Royals tomorrow.

Chicken Dinner
04-08-2006, 07:14 PM
I agree up until that point, in which case I think just the opposite....

Pablo Ozuna, Brian Anderson, and Rob Mackowiak does not = Podsednik, Rowand and Dye. We need to get these guys back in there (healthy), because the OF defense has been horrendous.

Our starting pitching has been fine, and will be better, no doubt about that.
A healthy Dye and Podsednik will result in a MUCH better lineup and obviously a better D, no doubt about that.

The bullpen is, and has been for a few weeks, the biggest conern, and until it proves it can hold a damn lead, it shall remain our biggest question mark.

Garcia ERA 15.75
Garland ERA 15.19
Buehrle ERA 6.75

If that's fine I'd like to know what bad is.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 07:14 PM
why are you giving him attitude... i totally agree with him...if the sox dont get thier **** together soon this is going to be a real long season.

You're right; I sure do suck. I'm a horrible person, and one of my biggest faults is that I don't speak fluent cliche.

And it's nice that you totally agree with him. However, the bottom line is the first few games of this season are not going to decide the outcome.

BeviBall!
04-08-2006, 07:16 PM
Garcia ERA 15.75
Garland ERA 15.19
Buehrle ERA 6.75

If that's fine I'd like to know what bad is.

These same ERA's in mid-May.

SluggersAway
04-08-2006, 07:16 PM
Funny how you speak about "useless speculation" in one post and yet the post before you say:

And look at it this way--would you rather they do what they're doing right now or do what Cleveland did the last week of last season?

This is quite the logical fallacy since the Sox ultimate outcome is not an either-or proposition.

Tragg
04-08-2006, 07:18 PM
I don't know why Ozuna is on this club, much less getting well above minimum salary...he can't hit and he can't field.

Ozzie used the bench a lot last year...keeps players fresh. Thing is, we could use a real outfielder on the bench, instead of 3 utility infielder type guys, only one of whom can hit.

The Royals could conceivably be improved; but that realistically means we're losing to a 70 win team instead of a 55 win team.

The season's young and we won't play like this forever.

voodoochile
04-08-2006, 07:19 PM
Garcia ERA 15.75
Garland ERA 15.19
Buehrle ERA 6.75

If that's fine I'd like to know what bad is.

SAMPLE SIZE!

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 07:21 PM
These same ERA's in mid-May.

Exactly. Barry Zito's ERA is currently 47.25. He must suck!

Chisox1500
04-08-2006, 07:24 PM
I don't know why Ozuna is on this club, much less getting well above minimum salary...he can't hit and he can't field.
You're right. With Cintron on the bench I don't see any need for Pablo...

Chisox003
04-08-2006, 07:26 PM
Garcia ERA 15.75
Garland ERA 15.19
Buehrle ERA 6.75

If that's fine I'd like to know what bad is.
Sure, but the only guy who pitched BAD out of them is Garcia.

Are you honestly concerned about any one of those 3 guys?

I'm not....

JB98
04-08-2006, 07:29 PM
Exactly. Barry Zito's ERA is currently 47.25. He must suck!

Tim Hudson's ERA is 12.38 after two starts. He sucks too!

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 07:33 PM
Funny how you speak about "useless speculation" in one post and yet the post before you say:



This is quite the logical fallacy since the Sox ultimate outcome is not an either-or proposition.

I'm not going to go back and search this thread to find my "useless speculation" quote because I don't want to bother. However, you are right that the Sox outcome is not an either-or proposition. Nor will it be decided in the first couple weeks of the season.

Wait, never mind. I did research the thread. And what is referred to as useless speculation was, in fact, useless speculation. The poster said if we hadn't won in April we would have been overtaken. NO ONE KNOWS THAT. And what about my comment that I'd rather they were doing this now than do what Cleveland did at the end of last season in any way implies that the Sox's ultimate outcome is anything other than a "wait-and-see" proposition?

All speculation aside--and we can speculate until we're blue in the face--my point always has been--and always will be--that what happens at the end of the season (among the teams that are in contention at that time, and do you honestly believe we won't be one of them?) ultimately decides who wins the whole thing. Not what happens in April. You want to disagree? Fine, go right ahead.

itsnotrequired
04-08-2006, 07:35 PM
Tim Hudson's ERA is 12.38 after two starts. He sucks too!

Sosa and Arroyo are both batting 1.000 with a 4.000 slugging percentage. Greatest pitchers in the league!

SluggersAway
04-08-2006, 07:38 PM
What you are saying now and what you said in the other post are two different things. So I have no argument.

JoeClutch24
04-08-2006, 07:42 PM
Buehrle pitched 4 innings!! Cause a rain delay. that's why he's at 6.75. Buehrle WILL pitch good tomorrow, It all depends on if our bats feel like showin up. oh yeah, and our manager. In my opinion I haven't seen enough Ozzie Ball.

Chicken Dinner
04-08-2006, 07:45 PM
Buehrle pitched 4 innings!! Cause a rain delay. that's why he's at 6.75. Buehrle WILL pitch good tomorrow, It all depends on if our bats feel like showin up. oh yeah, and our manager. In my opinion I haven't seen enough Ozzie Ball.

He's too busy changing the line-up every day. 5 games....5 different line-ups.

JB98
04-08-2006, 07:47 PM
He's too busy changing the line-up every day. 5 games....5 different line-ups.

As I said before the game, today's lineup was fine. It was the best lineup possible, given the injury to Dye. Hopefully, JD is back tomorrow. If not, I want to see the same lineup we had today.

Chicken Dinner
04-08-2006, 07:55 PM
As I said before the game, today's lineup was fine. It was the best lineup possible, given the injury to Dye. Hopefully, JD is back tomorrow. If not, I want to see the same lineup we had today.

I doubt if you'll see the same line-up 2 days in a row. Ozzie don't work that way.

JB98
04-08-2006, 07:59 PM
I doubt if you'll see the same line-up 2 days in a row. Ozzie don't work that way.

You're wrong. I'm certain we had the same lineup on back-to-back days on numerous occasions over the course of the last two years.

Beer Can Chicken
04-08-2006, 08:07 PM
Here come the dark clouds....

I dont take losing lightly. I dont take playing like crap lightly either.

I'm not saying the season is over by any means, but it seems Spring Training is carrying over into the regular season. Like it or not, there is reason for concern. Please note that concern is different than panic.

DickAllen72
04-08-2006, 08:22 PM
We're lacking the fire we had last year. There's no attitude with this team, no "prove them wrong" mentality.

And it's showing.

Whatever it is, we had through the entirety of last season.

This team thus far, however, does not.

Here's part of what "it" is: :everett: :rowand

WorldSeriesChiSo
04-08-2006, 08:24 PM
I think he will carry the team this year.... if he and Konerko don't get caught into too many double plays.

Mod Edit: No one cares about your crappy site. Go away.

siugrad25
04-08-2006, 08:48 PM
Well, mainly a nice first outing for Vazquez.

That being said, this team is almost unwatchable. I've put last year on the mantle with all my other cherished memories and now it's time to start a new chapter. At this point, I just sit there and wait to find out how they're going to screw something up. I know it will get better and I know they will be a contender in the long run, but right now, they are not playing good baseball and I'm disgusted. It would be easier to swallow if they had crap for ballplayers, but they don't. And what makes it harder are these 1-run losses. I can deal with the blowouts, but not being able to sustain a lead in both close losses is unacceptable.

I didn't think this would happen so soon this season, but all five starters went winless in the first week of the season. I know Ozzie will get this straightened out, but I sure hope they don't get swept heading into Detroit or we might be in for a long 2nd week. Then the truly dark clouds will roll in.

Lip Man 1
04-08-2006, 08:49 PM
Mary:

I think you mentioned something about a team's play one season not carrying over or influencing the next season. I don't know if that's true.

The Braves who went from worst to first in the 1991 season saw that momentum carry over to 1992 and well beyond. I'm sure that was caused in part but the fact that they realized 'hey we're good...'

Look at the White Sox in 1990. It was unexpected and it certainly carried over to 1991 through August 1994.

Look at Cleveland. They had an incredibly white hot final two months of 2005, ripped off a franchise record 21 spring training wins and started the regular season 4-1 despite what I think is a weaker pitching staff then in 2005.

I can't definitively prove it but I think there is a carry-over.

Lip

Foulke You
04-08-2006, 08:52 PM
Here's part of what "it" is: :everett: :rowand
So, are you are telling me is that their replacements, Thome and Anderson aren't doing a good job and are lacking some sort of intangibles that these guys had? Please. Thome is a professional and quite possibly a future hall of famer. You think he has nothing to prove out there? He is doing quite well to boot. Anderson has played solid CF and has contributed on offense. What more do you want from these guys?

This thread is loaded with crazy people today who are ready to jump off a bridge. It reminds me of when the Sox dropped 7 straight and the Tribe was gaining on us and tons of people had the Indians penciled in as AL Central Champs. I love my fellow Sox fans but sometimes the "fatalist" mentality dies hard with a lot of you. Give it more than 5 games before passing judgment that this team doesn't have "it".

sox84
04-08-2006, 08:59 PM
So, are you are telling me is that their replacements, Thome and Anderson aren't doing a good job and are lacking some sort of intangibles that these guys had? Please. Thome is a professional and quite possibly a future hall of famer. You think he has nothing to prove out there? He is doing quite well to boot. Anderson has played solid CF and has contributed on offense. What more do you want from these guys?

This thread is loaded with crazy people today who are ready to jump off a bridge. It reminds me of when the Sox dropped 7 straight and the Tribe was gaining on us and tons of people had the Indians penciled in as AL Central Champs. I love my fellow Sox fans but sometimes the "fatalist" mentality dies hard with a lot of you. Give it more than 5 games before passing judgment that this team doesn't have "it".

Very well said... Lets all step back from the ledge already..

SluggersAway
04-08-2006, 09:18 PM
The thing is some people want to comment and judge every game and some just want to sit back and let things work themselves out. I don't think it helps for the big picture folks to just criticize and call people names when it is a fact that the Sox have not been playing well. I don't see anyone on the ledge and giving up on the Sox just people calling it like they see it.

NSSoxFan
04-08-2006, 09:32 PM
I can't keep on drinking like this...

We'll be fine, go get a damn win tomorrow.

ArkanSox
04-08-2006, 09:35 PM
Vazquez and Thome are great additions to the Sox, and Mac and Cintron are also going to help out. If our team can stay healthy, I truly expect them to repeat. I understand people's frustration. I didn't think we should go to war in Iraq and was called unpatriotic. Just because someone is concerned with the poor play of the Sox lately, doesn't mean they aren't a true fan, or that they are giving up on them.

After the tremendous championship season, obviously expectations are going to be sky high. This team may still have their heads in the clouds, but they will find their groove and rip off quite a few long winning streaks this year. Their starting pitching and middle of the lineup is too good not to. I promise.
GO SOX!!!

TomParrish79
04-08-2006, 09:36 PM
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~jdann/mask117.jpg
So the White Sox lost a few games in a row...look on the bright side, atleast you dont look like me...

Jjav829
04-08-2006, 09:42 PM
I don't know why Ozuna is on this club, much less getting well above minimum salary...he can't hit and he can't field.

Ozzie used the bench a lot last year...keeps players fresh. Thing is, we could use a real outfielder on the bench, instead of 3 utility infielder type guys, only one of whom can hit.


Completely agree. I thought (hoped?) Ozuna would be the odd man out when Cintron was added. I still don't understand why he is around. The only thing he does well is run. Ozuna's hustle is nice and all, but I'd rather have an outfielder on the bench with a little pop in his bat.

JB98
04-08-2006, 09:51 PM
Here's part of what "it" is: :everett: :rowand

Obviously, Jim Thome and Brian Anderson are to blame for this losing streak. They are not adequate replacements for Everett and Rowand. Never mind the injuries to Pods and Dye, or the early-season struggles of Garcia and Garland.

MarySwiss
04-08-2006, 09:59 PM
Mary:

I think you mentioned something about a team's play one season not carrying over or influencing the next season. I don't know if that's true. I can't definitively prove it but I think there is a carry-over.

Lip

Hey, Lip! I don't recall making that point, but since there seem to be several posters attributing points to me that I don't recall making, you may well be right. And I'm sorry if I truncated your post, sweetie, but I think I captured the salient references. If I didn't, please feel free to correct me.

In any event, I don't disagree with your carryover theory. In fact, I'm sure you are right, and there is a carryover of a sort. At some point--hopefully soon!--the Sox will realize that Hey! We won!! and the carryover will kick in. However, just because the Sox waltzed through the postseason last year, that doesn't mean they will do it this year. They are not the same team. Likewise, just because the Indians came up short last year, that doesn't mean they will do it this year. For the same reason. It is simply too early to tell.

And frankly, I am getting goddamn sick and tired of saying this and getting attacked for urging optimism. (Not by you; your post made perfect sense.)

My opinion: Right now, the Sox are not at the top of their game. SO WHAT? We need to play the season. And for those who seem to have a problem understanding my opinion, I really don't know how to make it clearer. And I'm done responding to them.

Of course, one or more of the naysayers will sign on soon and tell me that they won the argument, and I lost. Let me just say in advance: Good for you!

SoxSpeed22
04-08-2006, 10:10 PM
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/%7Ejdann/mask117.jpg
So the White Sox lost a few games in a row...look on the bright side, atleast you dont look like me..."Oh God, what is this? What is all this? Am I touching the outside of a house? Oh God, you're a monster!"
"I'm beautiful on the inside."
"Yeah but Rocky, there's a limit. Oh, oh, what is this now? Does your face have a pelvis?!"
:rolling::rolling::roflmao:

brucefan34
04-08-2006, 10:11 PM
We're lacking the fire we had last year. There's no attitude with this team, no "prove them wrong" mentality.

And it's showing.

The Indians - Got it
The Tigers - Got it
Hell, even the Royals - Got it

Whatever it is, they have through this first week. Whatever it is, we had through the entirety of last season.

This team thus far, however, does not.


And unfortunately if the White Sox don't get that mentality back...someone's gonna take what they got last year!!! (Ya know that thing we spent 3 days celebrating last week?)

Chisox003
04-08-2006, 10:11 PM
"Oh God, what is this? What is all this? Am I touching the outside of a house? Oh God, you're a monster!"
"I'm beautiful on the inside."
"Yeah but Rocky, there's a limit. Oh, oh, what is this now? Does your face have a pelvis?!"
:rolling::rolling::roflmao: Quickly, what is this from before it drives me insane....?!?

Edit: I got it, Family Guy

cwsfannick
04-08-2006, 10:23 PM
Sox bullpen blows another lead. Currently, the Bulls are down to the 76ers by 23, the Hawks blow another 3rd period lead and the Cubs beat the Cards. I think I am going have to put in the Sox Pride Video to lift my spirits.

FanofBill
04-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Remember the bad last month we had last year. Hopefully, this is what we are going through now and get it out of the way for this year. Thank God, we still have 157 to go and not 10.

spiffie
04-08-2006, 10:40 PM
In any event, I don't disagree with your carryover theory. In fact, I'm sure you are right, and there is a carryover of a sort. At some point--hopefully soon!--the Sox will realize that Hey! We won!! and the carryover will kick in. However, just because the Sox waltzed through the postseason last year, that doesn't mean they will do it this year. They are not the same team. Likewise, just because the Indians came up short last year, that doesn't mean they will do it this year. For the same reason. It is simply too early to tell.
I agree entirely with this. Which is why I disagree with the idea that this will be decided in September. This is a different year, so the idea that we can turn it on at some point and make up any deficit seems problematic to me. These games are just as important as a game in September, we just don't the context of the importance yet. They may help decide if we get HFA. They may get us a wild card. They may make us fight to get to .500. But the idea that we can just give away these games as if they don't matter as much scares me. Not because you have it, in the end what we think doesn't much matter. But I worry the organization may have a bit of that. Hence the shifting lineups, or the Logan appearance on Wed.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 10:48 PM
I think you mentioned something about a team's play one season not carrying over or influencing the next season. I don't know if that's true.

Look at the White Sox in 1990. It was unexpected and it certainly carried over to 1991 through August 1994.

Actually, a better example would be looking at the 2nd half of the 1989 season. Even though the Sox finished with a terrible record, I believe they had the 2nd best record in the AL during the 2nd half of '89. THAT carried over into 1990, and they had an incredible year.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 10:49 PM
Completely agree. I thought (hoped?) Ozuna would be the odd man out when Cintron was added. I still don't understand why he is around. The only thing he does well is run. Ozuna's hustle is nice and all, but I'd rather have an outfielder on the bench with a little pop in his bat.

Ozzie's in love with Pablo. He's not going anywhere.

Brian26
04-08-2006, 10:55 PM
Tim Hudson's ERA is 12.38 after two starts. He sucks too!

Chris Shelton has 5 hrs through 5 games. This must mean he'll finish the season with 162 hrs!

1951Campbell
04-08-2006, 11:26 PM
I have now moved my status to "officially concerned".



Put me down for "pissed, but not officially concerned."

illinisox1
04-08-2006, 11:40 PM
There is cause for concern, but very little at this point IMO........

Lip Man 1
04-08-2006, 11:45 PM
Well Detroit and Cleveland both won again.

Regardless of what happens Sunday...Comerca Park is going to be absolute bedlam Monday.

If the Sox aren't very, very careful they could find themselves six or seven or even eight games back in mid-April.

Detroit doesn't figure to keep playing the way they have been (of course the national folks said the same thing about the Sox last year) but Cleveland certainly can.

A double barrel problem looking the Sox squarely in the eyes.

Wake up boys, 2005 is a thing of the past. Kenny like I said three weeks ago get on that phone and get yourself a friggin' bullpen.

Lip

Murphy10
04-09-2006, 12:04 AM
I think we are going to be fine tomorrow. Mark is a guaranteed 6 inning pitcher. He will hopefully go up to 8 tomorrow. That is what we need right now.

Put us on the right track Mark!

DaveIsHere
04-09-2006, 12:07 AM
Well Detroit and Cleveland both won again.

Regardless of what happens Sunday...Comerca Park is going to be absolute bedlam Monday.

If the Sox aren't very, very careful they could find themselves six or seven or even eight games back in mid-April.

Detroit doesn't figure to keep playing the way they have been (of course the national folks said the same thing about the Sox last year) but Cleveland certainly can.

A double barrel problem looking the Sox squarely in the eyes.

Wake up boys, 2005 is a thing of the past. Kenny like I said three weeks ago get on that phone and get yourself a friggin' bullpen.

Lip

Bullpen is not the problem, it has been starting pitching and most notably Hitting with RISP. Remove yourself from the "Bullpen Sucks" soapbox.

spiffie
04-09-2006, 12:25 AM
Bullpen is not the problem, it has been starting pitching and most notably Hitting with RISP. Remove yourself from the "Bullpen Sucks" soapbox.
More solid bullpen work and we're 3-2 right now instead of 1-4 and everyone feels pretty good about things. But no, it isn't all the bullpen. Plenty of blame to go around. However, the starters are likely, based on past performance to get better. The avg. with RISP is likely to improve. The bullpen however may have fundamental flaws which cannot be corrected short of personnel changes.

Viva Medias B's
04-09-2006, 12:40 AM
I am not going to be a dark cloud at all here. I am not worried about the 1-4 start nor our long term prognosis.

However, I'm mad as hell that we lost today. And the Cardinals laying down and letting the Evil Empire have their way with them is salt on the open wound!!! Fans of the Cubs and Indians are having a field day (http://p206.ezboard.com/framblermaniafrm1.showMessage?topicID=7828.topic) at our expense! To put in a WarGames reference:

"Dammit, I want a win and I want it now!" :angry:

fuzzy_patters
04-09-2006, 01:46 AM
It seems that we are losing in every way imaginable, and losing can be contagious. One of the strengths coming into last year was supposed to be that having so much pitching made it unlikely that you would have prolonged losing streaks. This crappy play sucks, but I am glad that Buehrle is pitching tomorrow. I think he gives us the best chance to pick up a win and feel better about things.

oeo
04-09-2006, 02:02 AM
Well Detroit and Cleveland both won again.

Regardless of what happens Sunday...Comerca Park is going to be absolute bedlam Monday.

If the Sox aren't very, very careful they could find themselves six or seven or even eight games back in mid-April.

Detroit doesn't figure to keep playing the way they have been (of course the national folks said the same thing about the Sox last year) but Cleveland certainly can.

A double barrel problem looking the Sox squarely in the eyes.

Wake up boys, 2005 is a thing of the past. Kenny like I said three weeks ago get on that phone and get yourself a friggin' bullpen.

Lip
Lip, you're a real downer, you know that? Listen here: they're going to be fine and they're going to win the division.

At the same time they could go down 6-8 games, they could also beat the snot out of the Tiggers and put them into place.

QCIASOXFAN
04-09-2006, 02:10 AM
When you win like we did losing really sucks!! I'm not scared though.

TaylorStSox
04-09-2006, 05:03 AM
Well Detroit and Cleveland both won again.

Regardless of what happens Sunday...Comerca Park is going to be absolute bedlam Monday.

If the Sox aren't very, very careful they could find themselves six or seven or even eight games back in mid-April.

Detroit doesn't figure to keep playing the way they have been (of course the national folks said the same thing about the Sox last year) but Cleveland certainly can.

A double barrel problem looking the Sox squarely in the eyes.

Wake up boys, 2005 is a thing of the past. Kenny like I said three weeks ago get on that phone and get yourself a friggin' bullpen.

Lip

They need "bedlam."

Grzegorz
04-09-2006, 06:59 AM
Sox bullpen blows another lead.

Politte jams Grudzielanek and he gets on base with a Texas Leaguer. Then Sweeney hits a good pitchers pitch out of the ballpark.

It was just a bad break on Saturday. I am a bit disappointed in the start, but if the White Sox win on Sunday and Garcia/Garland bounce back I think they'll be fine.

I believe the American League Central division will be tough; tougher than people expected. So giving away games (04/07) is NOT advisable.

DumpJerry
04-09-2006, 11:27 AM
I think we are learning by now that there are no victory laps in baseball. Each year you have to earn it.

BTW, even more true is the fact that there are no "turns" in baseball, either.

Tragg
04-09-2006, 12:21 PM
Politte jams Grudzielanek and he gets on base with a Texas Leaguer. Then Sweeney hits a good pitchers pitch out of the ballpark.

It was just a bad break on Saturday. I am a bit disappointed in the start, but if the White Sox win on Sunday and Garcia/Garland bounce back I think they'll be fine.

I believe the American League Central division will be tough; tougher than people expected. So giving away games (04/07) is NOT advisable.


I'm glad to hear that Cliff made good pitches.
How did Garland do on Friday? Was he tatooed or was it just BS. Oz left him in there a long time.

DickAllen72
04-09-2006, 01:06 PM
So, are you are telling me is that their replacements, Thome and Anderson aren't doing a good job...

No, I'm not saying they're not doing a good job.

and are lacking some sort of intangibles that these guys had?

Yes. The Sox miss the intangibles that Carl & Aaron brought to the team.

This thread is loaded with crazy people today who are ready to jump off a bridge.

I'm not crazy and I'm not ready to jump off a bridge. The Sox have a very good team on paper and they should have another great season this year. At the same time, they haven't played well this first week and they have shown a lack of fire, focus and intensity. It is what it is.

It's very early yet. Let's see what happens.

Lip Man 1
04-09-2006, 01:37 PM
Dave:

Well the fact is the bullpen 'lost' the lead in two winnable games this week.

They also have a kid who never pitched higher then A ball (and as No. 2 posted never even 'dominated' that league) as well as a first round bust who couldn't find the strike zone if he rolled the ball over the plate.

If that's a good bullpen, I shudder to imagine what you think a bad one is.

:?:

OEO:

You're right it's early. But unfotunately I remember 1968, 1973, 1984, 1995 and 2001 when the pressure to follow up was squarely on the White Sox. Things didn't turn out well.

There's a lot riding on this season... more then just wins and losses. It's a real opportunity to make a serious dent in the Chicago market that the Sox themselves foolishly gave away twenty years ago.

To do that they need a string of successes. That doesn't mean getting back to the World Series, that doesn't mean even making the post season. But a string of winning, 90+ seasons will go a long way towards reclaiming a young generation, making up for the generation that was pissed away by the team from 1981 through 1989.

That's what's at stake this season in my opinion.

My concern stems from the fact that the Sox looks listless, lifeless and confused. That began in spring training and hasn't ended yet.

It's a long season... we'll see, but I see some warning signs that all isn't right and it's frustrating.

If my comments distrube you I apologize.

Lip

beckett21
04-09-2006, 01:54 PM
Lip,

If it were as easy to get good bullpen help as you seem to imply that it is, Kenny would have done it by now.

I agree that the bullpen is cause for concern, but nobody is dealing the first week of the season. Hopefully with the help of Cooper, Politte and friends will right the ship sooner rather than later.

The bullpen is a weakness right now, but there is no one of quality readily available. The only guys available at the drop of a hat are already out of work, and there is probably a good reason for that. Or shall KW see what Mike Jackson is up to these days?

I'm not thrilled with the start of the season, but we have to be patient. Give them time to shake off a little rust and hopefully the problem will correct itself. If not, I'm sure Kenny will get someone. There is just no one available now; no one is cutting bait yet.

It is premature to be hitting the panic button, IMHO. Sorry if you disagree. I'm not saying that I am burying my head in the sand, there is just nothing that can be done right at this moment. Just relax and let things sort themselves out.

batmanZoSo
04-09-2006, 02:03 PM
Dave:

Well the fact is the bullpen 'lost' the lead in two winnable games this week.

They also have a kid who never pitched higher then A ball (and as No. 2 posted never even 'dominated' that league) as well as a first round bust who couldn't find the strike zone if he rolled the ball over the plate.

If that's a good bullpen, I shudder to imagine what you think a bad one is.

:?:

OEO:

You're right it's early. But unfotunately I remember 1968, 1973, 1984, 1995 and 2001 when the pressure to follow up was squarely on the White Sox. Things didn't turn out well.

There's a lot riding on this season... more then just wins and losses. It's a real opportunity to make a serious dent in the Chicago market that the Sox themselves foolishly gave away twenty years ago.

To do that they need a string of successes. That doesn't mean getting back to the World Series, that doesn't mean even making the post season. But a string of winning, 90+ seasons will go a long way towards reclaiming a young generation, making up for the generation that was pissed away by the team from 1981 through 1989.

That's what's at stake this season in my opinion.

My concern stems from the fact that the Sox looks listless, lifeless and confused. That began in spring training and hasn't ended yet.

It's a long season... we'll see, but I see some warning signs that all isn't right and it's frustrating.

If my comments distrube you I apologize.

Lip

You're right, this is a huge year for the franchise. They can't fall on their faces like they have in those other years you mentioned.

First time through the rotation was a flop. Let's just hope that's all it was. A 5 or 6 game winning streak will wipe this out, but you can't bury yourself in April. This is looking a lot like 2001 so far, I can't say I'm not worried. Hopefully they can just forget about it and get out of there with a win today. Buehrle, step up man!

Lip Man 1
04-09-2006, 10:22 PM
Beckett:

I agree somewhat that nothing can be done now. Although in fairness it was reported midway through spring training that Juan Cruz was available and that the Sox had been 'looking hard at Oscar Villareal....' instead we get Matt Thornton.

:?:

And there were a number of veteran relief guys available in the off season. Kenny knew from the number of tickets sold starting in September that his fan base was going to go way up in 2006 (along with the payroll).

Kenny has done a fantastic job filling the holes, I guess I just don't understand why he risked his bullpen to the hands of Thornton and Logan knowing that Hermanson was no sure thing from the start.

Considering the Sox payroll is now around 90 million (with another ten being paid by opponents pushing it to 100 million :smile: ) what was another three or four million to get a Myers or an Eyre or even (gulp) a Howry. Even if it meant 'overpaying.' Come July when the price of pitching goes shy-high, the Sox may have to give up a lot more then just 'money.'

My only point was there were opportunities to reduce or eliminate this 'problem' before the season even started.

As you stated all we can do is now 'wait and see.'

Lip