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SouthSide_HitMen
04-08-2006, 12:57 AM
I hope Florida's attendance is zero this season.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/***/

Your payroll is $20 million lower than the second-lowest team in the majors! Itís not even $15 million! The Marlins received $27 million in revenue sharing in 2005. Nice going. The Collective Bargaining Agreement is set to expire, and youíre going to be whining and simpering that you need more revenue sharing, yet your payroll isnít even 60% of the subsidies you received last year. Do you think the players' union isnít going to point at you as the number one reason that revenue sharing doesnít work? (Are you still paying attention San Antonio and Portland?)

ilsox7
04-08-2006, 01:07 AM
I hope Florida's attendance is zero this season.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/***/

Your payroll is $20 million lower than the second-lowest team in the majors! Itís not even $15 million! The Marlins received $27 million in revenue sharing in 2005. Nice going. The Collective Bargaining Agreement is set to expire, and youíre going to be whining and simpering that you need more revenue sharing, yet your payroll isnít even 60% of the subsidies you received last year. Do you think the players' union isnít going to point at you as the number one reason that revenue sharing doesnít work? (Are you still paying attention San Antonio and Portland?)

From a baseball perspective, I actually think what they are doing is not such a bad idea. They are in a place where they had a decent team, but not a Champion. There was probably very little chance they would be able to add the pieces they needed to win it all, or at least get to the Series. So they sell off all of their parts and build for a few years down the road. Cleveland did something similar, but just not as drastic.

It's actually the theory that I think would suit the Cubs the best. Pick a couple of guys and lock them up LONG term. Trade away your parts for any prospects you can manage to get.

The obvious problem with this situation is that you have consumers to pelase. Cleveland got killed at the gate using this strategy in its partial nature. But the Marlins were getting no gate and had no propsect of getting a huge gate. It'd be an interesting experience on the north side. Would that be the final straw for them to lose their Attendance Trophy? Eh, ain't happening anyways.

Mediocrity rules!

MUsoxfan
04-08-2006, 02:27 AM
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/May-07-Sat-2005/photos/marlins.jpg


"I'm putting a team together that can help us relocate to Miami."

Mohoney
04-08-2006, 02:48 AM
I honestly can't see South Florida as a viable baseball market when, in the subsequent two years after a World Series Championship, the Marlins drew less than 23,000 fans per game.

When you compare the Marlins, with two World Series titles despite only having two seasons of attendance over 2 million, to the Rockies, a team that led the NL in attendance the first 7 years of its existence, steadily drew over 3 million fans per year through the 2001 season, has had only one season below 2 million (last season's 1.9 million), and have produced nothing but one Wild Card and quick NLDS exit, I think it's pretty clear which market has more interest in baseball, especially when you add the fact that the Miami metro area has over 1 million more people than the Denver metro area.

Ol' No. 2
04-08-2006, 09:55 AM
I hope Florida's attendance is zero this season.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/***/

Your payroll is $20 million lower than the second-lowest team in the majors! Itís not even $15 million! The Marlins received $27 million in revenue sharing in 2005. Nice going. The Collective Bargaining Agreement is set to expire, and youíre going to be whining and simpering that you need more revenue sharing, yet your payroll isnít even 60% of the subsidies you received last year. Do you think the players' union isnít going to point at you as the number one reason that revenue sharing doesnít work? (Are you still paying attention San Antonio and Portland?)It's even worse than that. In addition to the revenue sharing money they get about $30M from the league in national broadcasting rights money. They're more profitable than most teams without selling a single ticket.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-08-2006, 12:04 PM
I honestly can't see South Florida as a viable baseball market when, in the subsequent two years after a World Series Championship, the Marlins drew less than 23,000 fans per game.

When you compare the Marlins, with two World Series titles despite only having two seasons of attendance over 2 million, to the Rockies, a team that led the NL in attendance the first 7 years of its existence, steadily drew over 3 million fans per year through the 2001 season, has had only one season below 2 million (last season's 1.9 million), and have produced nothing but one Wild Card and quick NLDS exit, I think it's pretty clear which market has more interest in baseball, especially when you add the fact that the Miami metro area has over 1 million more people than the Denver metro area.

The Miami fans are like White Sox fans - they are not going to pay money to see a crappy team - especially this team which is really a AAA team - worse than any White Sox clubs I've seen and I've seen some bad ones (1989, 1988, Hawk's team in 1986 & the worst - the 1976 squad which finished with a 64-97 .398 record). Sure they have some good prospects but most teams do in their minor leagues. They have 3 very good players (Cabrera, Willis & Hermida), a half way decent catching platoon (Willingham who can rake and Olivo) four positions which are manned by AA or AAA players (CF Abercrombie, LF Aguila (when Willingham catches), SS Ramirez, and 2B Uggla).

Their staff after Willis (Mitre, Moehler, Vargas and blank) are waiver wire bait as well as their bullpen (waiver fodder Borowski their closer with Herges being the only other pitcher with some sort of MLB career.

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=fla

$60 million in MLB welfare payments (TV & revenue sharing) and now they demand $700 million for a stadium. This ownership needs to be run out of MLB.

ewokpelts
04-08-2006, 12:14 PM
The Miami fans are like White Sox fans - they are not going to pay money to see a crappy team - especially this team which is really a AAA team - worse than any White Sox clubs I've seen and I've seen some bad ones (1989, 1988, Hawk's team in 1986 & the worst - the 1976 squad which finished with a 64-97 .398 record). Sure they have some good prospects but most teams do in their minor leagues. They have 3 very good players (Cabrera, Willis & Hermida), a half way decent catching platoon (Willingham who can rake and Olivo) four positions which are manned by AA or AAA players (CF Abercrombie, LF Aguila (when Willingham catches), SS Ramirez, and 2B Uggla).

Their staff after Willis (Mitre, Moehler, Vargas and blank) are waiver wire bait as well as their bullpen (waiver fodder Borowski their closer with Herges being the only other pitcher with some sort of MLB career.

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/depth_chart/index.jsp?c_id=fla

$60 million in MLB welfare payments (TV & revenue sharing) and now they demand $700 million for a stadium. This ownership needs to be run out of MLB.instead the reverse will happen...loria will get a stadium out of san antonio or portland......it happened in washington, and it'll happen to wherever loria moves to......florida was his punishment for screwing up montreal, but that WS victory was further ammo for selig to trump the benefits of revenue sharing(two low payroll wild card winners in two years that beat high payroll and major market teams)
Selig wont remove him, since they are still smarting over assclown huzinga's manhandling of the franchise post ws victory #1..he's amajor reason the marlins ar ein this crunch, since the dolphins(owned by huzinga) get the lion's share of profits from marlins parking, concessions, and even ticket money.....
Gene

SouthSide_HitMen
04-08-2006, 12:31 PM
instead the reverse will happen...loria will get a stadium out of san antonio or portland......it happened in washington, and it'll happen to wherever loria moves to......florida was his punishment for screwing up montreal, but that WS victory was further ammo for selig to trump the benefits of revenue sharing(two low payroll wild card winners in two years that beat high payroll and major market teams)
Selig wont remove him, since they are still smarting over assclown huzinga's manhandling of the franchise post ws victory #1..he's amajor reason the marlins ar ein this crunch, since the dolphins(owned by huzinga) get the lion's share of profits from marlins parking, concessions, and even ticket money.....
Gene

I think contraction is more likely. Texas taxpayers are not going to put up $700 million for these carpetbaggers and Houston / Texas will not be happy with another team moving to Texas. Portland's mayor already said Public Financing is dead on arrival.

Baseball has no viable new American options at this point. Unless they move 4 teams to Japan, the demand for billions from taxpayers for stadiums has come to an end. With the ever increasing obligations for ever increasing public employees on the payroll, the likelihood of further corporate welfare for MLB shrinks each and every year which is a good thing.

Lip Man 1
04-08-2006, 12:31 PM
Florida is simply following the example of tanking your season and keeping revenue sharing money pioneered by such franchises as the Expos, Brewers, Royals and Reds.

Steinbrenner was right years ago when he was pissed about giving his money to go into the pockets and banks of his compitition.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
04-09-2006, 10:58 AM
For all the talk about salary caps, I think a floor would serve baseball better. IMO, owners like Loria do far more harm to baseball than Steinbrenner.

ewokpelts
04-09-2006, 12:07 PM
For all the talk about salary caps, I think a floor would serve baseball better. IMO, owners like Loria do far more harm to baseball than Steinbrenner.

It's hard to say if he's doing anything bad, aside from pissing off south florida.
All those minor leaguers are getting loads of invaluable experience against real major leaguers. And, they'll be eligible for free agency sooner than if they got to the show the normal way.
Sides, the 03 marlins were able to win the world series with a lotta youth that learned on the job.

Gene

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 12:23 PM
For all the talk about salary caps, I think a floor would serve baseball better. IMO, owners like Loria do far more harm to baseball than Steinbrenner.

It should be mandatory that any revenue sharing and national TV revenue shared be spent on payroll (and or the club's share of stadium expense). Ticket and local broadcast revenue would be more than enough to cover overhead such as club offices and other expense (advertising, etc.) and to turn a profit. As it stands now, the Marlins of the world claim over $50 million from MLB (not including the additional payments for MLB Merchandise and MLB Online TV / Radio revenue) and can spend as little as approximately $12.5 mil on payroll (25 players * $500,000 minimum - I don't know the minimum for 2006) turning a $37.5 mil profit with 0 fans (maybe they will not open the gates to save on game day expense).

Most clubs only get the later (national TV revenue). The whole reason for revenue sharing was to prop up lower revenue clubs so they can be more competitive on the field.

This set up is like the food stamp fraud covered in the Sun Times today. Recipients are getting 70 cents on the dollar for food stamps to use for drugs (which is illegal as cash payments are NOT permitted) and the store keeps the 30 cent difference (also illegal) and then these same people also go to food pantries to claim food they should have bought with their food stamps. Over 100 stores have been caught participating in these scams with several owners convicted and jailed.

Jeff Loria is baseball's equivalent of both sides of the transaction.

munchman33
04-09-2006, 12:25 PM
I don't know guys. How can you argue with a franchise that's already done this twice and both times saw World Championships at the end of their runs. It makes perfect sense for a market like that. In a few years, that payroll will be high again, and they'll be right there competing.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 12:33 PM
I don't know guys. How can you argue with a franchise that's already done this twice and both times saw World Championships at the end of their runs. It makes perfect sense for a market like that. In a few years, that payroll will be high again, and they'll be right there competing.

The difference is the two owners responsible for the World Championships are long gone. Wayne imploded the team in 1998 and sold the remains to current Red Sox owner and FOBS (Friend of Bud Selig) John Henry who rebuilt the team and gave a great core to Loria (during the three team Bud Selig swap which did the equivalent of leaving the Expos like a new born baby in a garbage can vs. at the door of a hospital or firehouse). Loria lucked out having a low cost team succeed on the field. When it came time to pay said players he dumped them all and now is demanding $700 million welfare from taxpayers on top of the $50 million in welfare per year from MLB (for a inferior product to boot) which is the point of the article and why Loria should be removed from ownership of a MLB team.

munchman33
04-09-2006, 12:40 PM
The difference is the two owners responsible for the World Championships are long gone. Wayne imploded the team in 1998 and sold the remains to current Red Sox owner and FOBS (Friend of Bud Selig) John Henry who rebuilt the team and gave a great core to Loria (during the three team Bud Selig swap which did the equivalent of leaving the Expos like a new born baby in a garbage can vs. at the door of a hospital or firehouse). Loria lucked out having a low cost team succeed on the field. When it came time to pay said players he dumped them all and now is demanding $700 million welfare from taxpayers on top of the $50 million in welfare per year from MLB (for a inferior product to boot) which is the point of the article and why Loria should be removed from ownership of a MLB team.

Most baseball people are excited about the Marlins farm system, especially the pitchers they got in return for their fire sale. I don't think you're giving the organization enough credit.

Yes, they're being cheap. But there are designs to get better. There are designs to reach the top again. Which is more than we can say even for some high spending teams, like the Orioles and the Cubs.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 01:00 PM
Most baseball people are excited about the Marlins farm system, especially the pitchers they got in return for their fire sale. I don't think you're giving the organization enough credit.

Yes, they're being cheap. But there are designs to get better. There are designs to reach the top again. Which is more than we can say even for some high spending teams, like the Orioles and the Cubs.

They are profitting not on what they do on the field but rather what they do not do (i.e. pay players).

This is not a professional baseball team. You can still develop players and your farm system, make trades for the future but field a somewhat competitive team. 4 of their 5 starting pitchers are not MLB quality, 4 of 7 bullpen pitchers are not MLB quality (and Borowski, Herges and German are the the 12th pitcher on most clubs if they even make the team). Their LF, CF and 2B are AA - AAA players.

This is like charging $8 - $10 for a movie and you told it is a professional movie but when you sit down to watch it the movie owner shows you a 10 minute home movie of his kid's birthday party or like the Civic Opera House charging regular orchestra price for a concert performed by 7 year olds playing kazoos. The Marlins are not the only teams doing this (Tampa, Colorado, Kansas City and Pittsburgh also cash their welfare checks) but their payroll is 2 1/2 times lower than the 29th team.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2006

What the Marlins plans are for 2009 or 2010 are irrelevant to the argument that they have made no effort to field a major league team in 2007 and still have the audacity to ask Mr and Mrs. American taxpayer who make on average $30,000 to pay for this millionaires capital expenses for his shoddy product.

The_Floridian
04-09-2006, 01:41 PM
For the record, I think Florida baseball fans get a raw deal. The D-Rays and Marlins play in arguably the two worst stadiums in the league. Miami is scorching and humid all summer and an open air football stadium is not where most people want to spend their time. Part of the reason Houston and Arizona draw is because they have stadiums that keep those horrible weather conditions tolerable, therefore the old folks in Arizona are safe and the hairdos in Houston don't tumble.

Tampa Bay has a climate controlled stadium, but as a person from that area, I can say for certain there is not a worse place int he league to watch a ball game. Plus, ownership has been horrible. I understand why people haven't come out there.

The Marlins drew big their first couple of seasons, but they haven't come back since Huizenga's fire sale, and I don't think they will without a ballpark, which is probably never going to get built in the city with arguably the most corrupt local politics in the nation.

Until Tampa and Miami get decent stadiums, I don't know if we can say whether or not the markets will support their teams. The Heat and the Dolphins draw pretty well, as do the Bucs and the Lightning. The Lightning didn't draw crap when they played in Tropicana Field (it was called the Thunderdome then). But since they've moved into the Ice Palace, they've done very, very well.

munchman33
04-09-2006, 02:27 PM
They are profitting not on what they do on the field but rather what they do not do (i.e. pay players).

This is not a professional baseball team. You can still develop players and your farm system, make trades for the future but field a somewhat competitive team. 4 of their 5 starting pitchers are not MLB quality, 4 of 7 bullpen pitchers are not MLB quality (and Borowski, Herges and German are the the 12th pitcher on most clubs if they even make the team). Their LF, CF and 2B are AA - AAA players.

This is like charging $8 - $10 for a movie and you told it is a professional movie but when you sit down to watch it the movie owner shows you a 10 minute home movie of his kid's birthday party or like the Civic Opera House charging regular orchestra price for a concert performed by 7 year olds playing kazoos. The Marlins are not the only teams doing this (Tampa, Colorado, Kansas City and Pittsburgh also cash their welfare checks) but their payroll is 2 1/2 times lower than the 29th team.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2006

What the Marlins plans are for 2009 or 2010 are irrelevant to the argument that they have made no effort to field a major league team in 2007 and still have the audacity to ask Mr and Mrs. American taxpayer who make on average $30,000 to pay for this millionaires capital expenses for his shoddy product.

The amount of money you pay someone is not the end all be all. There is a ton of talent there, even if it is young. Josh Willingham, Jeremy Hermida, Hanley Ramirez, and Mike Jacobs are all going to be superstars. And the only way they are going to be good is if they play everyday in the majors. They are ready. And now they will develop together as a core, and stay for a long time. Willis and Cabrera are locked up long term. And there's a plethera of young pitching that will get a chance this year to see who's ready for the show. They'll be down one year. Next year, they'll be ready to compete.

I have more of a problem with an organization like the Royals or the Devil Rays than I do with the Marlins. The Marlins are trying to win. Who cares if they're trying to make a ton of money in the process. They've got a plan, and you can clearly see the end of the tunnel.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 03:27 PM
The amount of money you pay someone is not the end all be all. There is a ton of talent there, even if it is young. Josh Willingham, Jeremy Hermida, Hanley Ramirez, and Mike Jacobs are all going to be superstars. And the only way they are going to be good is if they play everyday in the majors. They are ready. And now they will develop together as a core, and stay for a long time. Willis and Cabrera are locked up long term. And there's a plethera of young pitching that will get a chance this year to see who's ready for the show. They'll be down one year. Next year, they'll be ready to compete.

I have more of a problem with an organization like the Royals or the Devil Rays than I do with the Marlins. The Marlins are trying to win. Who cares if they're trying to make a ton of money in the process. They've got a plan, and you can clearly see the end of the tunnel.

You clearly are not grasping the argument here so this is my final response. When a majority of your roster is filled with AA and AAA players and you are the most profitable team in the majors due to welfare payments, you deserve ZERO fans and San Antonio should join Miami and Portland in telling Loria and his 5 foot son in law to go **** off.

Jerry Reinsdorf took a lot of **** from the fans and bandwagon media for the "White Flag" trades. The White Sox still had 25 MLB players on the roster and were a .500 team and their payroll was in the top half. The difference between The White Flag deal and what Florida is doing this year is the difference between a sparkler and a nuclear bomb.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 03:31 PM
The Marlins drew big their first couple of seasons, but they haven't come back since Huizenga's fire sale, and I don't think they will without a ballpark, which is probably never going to get built in the city with arguably the most corrupt local politics in the nation.


It would be hard to surpass the combined corruption of Chicago's City Hall and Springfield over the past few decades (New Jersey and Louisiana / New Orleans being the exceptions). If they block the deal they are actually acting in their constituents best interest.


I agree with your statements of the poor stadiums in Florida. My stance is it is MLB's and not the taxpayers responsibility to resolve those issues.

ewokpelts
04-09-2006, 04:01 PM
Let's not forget that the marlins pay Wayne Huzinga A LOT OF MONEY to play in Dolphins/ProPlayer/Joe Robbe Stadium.
This fact was painfully pointed out in 2004 when the Marlins told baseball weekly that wayne makes money off almost everything in that stadium.
Of course, all the marlins lease agreements were written when wayne owned the marlins and pro player stadium(this was before he was allowed to buy the dolphins). So even though they are recieving upwards of $45 million in "profit" , how much goes to uncle wayne?
Gene

Ol' No. 2
04-09-2006, 04:13 PM
Let's not forget that the marlins pay Wayne Huzinga A LOT OF MONEY to play in Dolphins/ProPlayer/Joe Robbe Stadium.
This fact was painfully pointed out in 2004 when the Marlins told baseball weekly that wayne makes money off almost everything in that stadium.
Of course, all the marlins lease agreements were written when wayne owned the marlins and pro player stadium(this was before he was allowed to buy the dolphins). So even though they are recieving upwards of $45 million in "profit" , how much goes to uncle wayne?
GeneThat $45M is before they sell a single ticket. Even if Huizinga took all the stadium revenue, the Marlins would still be among the more profitable teams in MLB.

ewokpelts
04-09-2006, 04:27 PM
That $45M is before they sell a single ticket. Even if Huizinga took all the stadium revenue, the Marlins would still be among the more profitable teams in MLB.


they pay uncle wayne to play there...that's before any game day revenue.
and then they pay office staff....
pay for game day staff....
pay for equipment
pay for transportation (planes and bus)
pay for hotels/meal stipends
pay for media guides/other press needs
pay for their spring training complex rental/other spring training needs(that includes player/staff housing)
pay the city and county for the additional police/tafffic control/emt personell needed...
and let's not forget any debt assumed when loria purchased the team

they are probably breaking even or making a profit of 5-10 million before a single person walks through the turnstile

Gene

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 04:38 PM
That $45M is before they sell a single ticket. Even if Huizinga took all the stadium revenue, the Marlins would still be among the more profitable teams in MLB.

Not to mention the tens of millions of dollars they made dumping the Expos onto MLB owners (though I am glad MLB in general instead of Loria will get the proceeds on the sale) and completing the three way swap with John Henry moving to Boston.

Here is some background on how "Uncle Wayne" lied about "loses" before he sold the team and kept the stadium.

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/economics/faculty/jpalmer/Eco182/marlins.html

Here are some real numbers about the new stadium proposal and how the team will put up $0 of their own money.

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/041202/story-viewpoint.shtml

The current terms of the lease gives parking and suite revenue to "Uncle Wayne" and 30% of concessions. The Marlins also pay a few million $ for rent.

They are crying like Pohlad that they want more. The Twins deal was an even one for the taxpayers of Minnesota. The State & City recouped their money and the Twins also made money over the two decades the dome has been open. The fact is the Twins and Marlin owners are not satisfied with making millions or tens of millions - they want a guaranteed $20 - $30 million profit per year on the backs of taxpayers of their communities or another community who will pay for their carpetbag franchise.

munchman33
04-09-2006, 06:42 PM
You clearly are not grasping the argument here so this is my final response. When a majority of your roster is filled with AA and AAA players and you are the most profitable team in the majors due to welfare payments, you deserve ZERO fans and San Antonio should join Miami and Portland in telling Loria and his 5 foot son in law to go **** off.

Jerry Reinsdorf took a lot of **** from the fans and bandwagon media for the "White Flag" trades. The White Sox still had 25 MLB players on the roster and were a .500 team and their payroll was in the top half. The difference between The White Flag deal and what Florida is doing this year is the difference between a sparkler and a nuclear bomb.

I grasp your argument. I just think you're wrong.

In fact, the Marlins have gutted that team twice already and proven you wrong. Teams like the Brewers, Pirates, Royals, Devil Rays, that have spent that revunue shared money...they've also proven you wrong. By sucking. Every year do they suck.

The only way for a small market team to compete (for a championship, sorry A's) is to follow the Marlins model. Sell your players for prospects. Build with a young core. Suck for a year or two. And take your shot. Then sell high and try it again. I don't know what evidence other than history I can use.

You can say having a $15 million dollar payroll is an attempt to simply make money without trying. But the front office has done an excellent job of acquiring some of the best cheap talent in baseball. And they will be good. Should they be penalized for puttting together a team that will eventually win, simply because their players are cheap this year? That's ridiculous. You're completely ignoring the baseball aspect of this move. And it's you that's having trouble grasping, not I.

munchman33
04-09-2006, 06:46 PM
That $45M is before they sell a single ticket. Even if Huizinga took all the stadium revenue, the Marlins would still be among the more profitable teams in MLB.

You mean they're making a ton of money this year, and they've got some of the best, cheap young talent in all of baseball, meaning they're in a position to be good and lucrative in the future. The horror.

Believe me, by next year the Marlins organization will once again be the envy of baseball general managers everywhere, even if their fans can't appreciate how they operate.

cws05champ
04-09-2006, 07:34 PM
I live down here in South Florida and I'm one of the lucky 12 people that are Marlins season ticket holders. While I don't enjoy shelling out major league money for minor league talent...this time around I think a lot of Marlins fans don't harbor bad feeling towards Loria because of the whole stadium deal with Miami. I did not live down here when the fire sale happened in 98 but from what I hear was much worse than the salary dump of 2005.

Loria was willing to put up more than half the $$ for the stadium, and a lot of other people I talk to down here feel he was getting the shaft from the city and State gov't. What is not mentioned in this thread is how much they invested in the team the last couple years...they lost money in previous seasons because of the aforementioned stadium lease deal with Wayne.

One of the problems with the fan base down here is that it is so transient, most people are from somewhere else(like me from Chicago) and their passions are with another team(which is why 70% of the stadium cheers for the Mets when they come to town). The only rean die hard Marlins fans are the people that have been down here in the area for quite awhile and were here for the innagural season. Also, sports isn't as big or as passionate here as it is in the midwest or NorthEast.

Look, I was as pissed as anyone when I had already commited for the tickets this year and then they started the selloff, but if you owned a business that was losing money what would you do? Hopefully they rebound and come back in a year or two...but I won't be there to see it, I'm cancelling my season tickets after this year.

gobears1987
04-09-2006, 07:59 PM
I think contraction is more likely. Texas taxpayers are not going to put up $700 million for these carpetbaggers and Houston / Texas will not be happy with another team moving to Texas. Portland's mayor already said Public Financing is dead on arrival.

Baseball has no viable new American options at this point. Unless they move 4 teams to Japan, the demand for billions from taxpayers for stadiums has come to an end. With the ever increasing obligations for ever increasing public employees on the payroll, the likelihood of further corporate welfare for MLB shrinks each and every year which is a good thing.I agree with all that is said. The only way the Marlins get a new stadium in a new location is that they move to a city that wants baseball. If they can get fans, then they can try and sell PSLs. I think Vegas might be the best choice since a ton of corporations would buy STs to have tickets to give to clients. Vegas has a ton of major companies there because CEOs like living in a state with no income tax.

PSLs are the answer to a lack of public financing.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 08:17 PM
In fact, the Marlins have gutted that team twice already and proven you wrong. Teams like the Brewers, Pirates, Royals, Devil Rays, that have spent that revunue shared money...they've also proven you wrong. By sucking. Every year do they suck.

Actually you are wrong because the team has only been gutted once (and nowhere near this extent) before 2006 and it took several years and two NEW ownership groups before the team was briefly successful again. During that time frame the teams were on the low end of the scale but never 1/3 of the payroll of the second lowest team in baseball. John Henry invested in the team - on the field and in the minors - which set up 2003. Loria has only dismantled the low cost team he was given by Bud in exchange for the toxic mess he left in his native Montreal.

This is the second ownership group since Wayne dumped the team and while the 1998 and next few years were not the best squads, they fielded major league ballplayers - not these AA castoffs who are not even prospects. I classified the majority of the team who are not major league worthy. Your weak attempt at addressing that was they have 3 or 4 prospects. Big ****ing deal. People have boxes of Lorenzo Gray rookie cards and other equally worthless prospects and they are as worthless as this Marlins team.

The bottom line is revenue should not be shared with the Marlins and they should be contracted or Loria should be forced out and nobody should attend a Marlins game this year or future years as long as Loria owns the team. The basis for revenue sharing (and how it was sold by Bud to the fans and union) is to allow lower revenue teams to compete in acquiring ballplayers on the open market - not to fuel a private jet for billionaires to go from town to town with hat in hand like a bum begging for change demanding the American taxpayer to pay for the capital expenses of their business. (I'm talking about the welfare payments from the Yankees, not their share of general revenue though their claim of being a major league team being entitled to TV revenue is on shaky ground based on the farce they are fielding).

Your defense of this is laughable. Pocketing a $30 million net profit this year is irrelevant to their future which may not even exist since it looks like nobody is stupid enough (in a world filled with stupid, greedy politicians on all sides of the aisle) to hand several hundred million dollars to these scumbags. Also, they are NOT setting aside $30 million in profits for their fraudulent "major league" team each year pledging to spend it for future teams. They are not even willing to put up a penny up front for a stadium (their "share" consists of future rent payments and a ticket surcharge).

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/041202/story-viewpoint.shtml

There is no excuse to not field a professional team. If Bud comes back to us during the offseason to demand even more revenue sharing fans and the union must remember this farce and laugh in his face. Without a minimum payroll, there should be no welfare revenue sharing. Bud Selig must order a minimum payroll (at least 80 - 90% of total revenue received from the New York MLB office - TV, merchandise, web based and of course the welfare revenue sharing) to ensure another carpetbagging owner like Jeff Loria who have ruined two teams in a manner of several years is not allowed to disgrace MLB nor ruin yet another major league city.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-09-2006, 08:50 PM
A salary floor won't be effective. Ballclubs will spend just enough to meet the minimum with no regard for whether the players they spend on their payroll have any talent at all. Why work at building a champion when it's easier (and cheaper) to sign 25 dopes off the street?

The luxury tax -- like its twin sister, the salary cap -- is a joke serving strictly to add money to the ballclubs' bottom line. It has no effect on competitive balance at all. (And please leave the NFL out of this -- they trick you into believing there is competitive balance with goofy unbalanced schedules of 16 pathetic games.)

You want real competition? Split the two leagues into an upper and lower division and at the end of each season relegate the weakest team from the top division to the lower one, rewarding the the top team from the lower division with promotion into the top division for the new season. Only teams in the top division can compete for the world championship and most of their games will be played against each other, not the lower division clubs.

Make the ballclubs field competitive teams at risk of getting demoted if they don't. All the sudden the crocodile tears about how "we can't compete" while pocketing profits from MLB welfare checks (like Kansas City, Florida, and Cincinnati have repeatedly done) will suddenly come to an end.

The best part of this system? A team like the Cubs would be in the lower division forever.
:cool:

SouthSide_HitMen
04-09-2006, 09:37 PM
You want real competition? Split the two leagues into an upper and lower division and at the end of each season relegate the weakest team from the top division to the lower one, rewarding the the top team from the lower division with promotion into the top division for the new season. Only teams in the top division can compete for the world championship and most of their games will be played against each other, not the lower division clubs.

While this would create incentives for owners, the odds of Bud and MLB ownership going along with the English Football way of separating the men from the boys would be less than the odds of Bud being banned for life as the result of another farce - the Steroid Investigation. In other words, zero.

You are correct that several teams will spend the minimum and not a penny more but with the revenue sharing system currently in place, the idea that none of the money being spent on the field repulses me and most people. The bare minimum would (say $35 mil) would still result in an actual major league 25 man roster. The fans who have supported the Marlins over the years and fans of MLB in general deserve better. A team can plan for the future and still put quality players on the field in the present. Starters who hit in the .240s in AA ball (2B Uggla and CF Abercrombie) are not prospects nor should they be playing everyday baseball in Miami and neither should most of their pitching staff as well as their bench.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-09-2006, 09:46 PM
....You are correct that several teams will spend the minimum and not a penny more but with the revenue sharing system currently in place, the idea that none of the money being spent on the field repulses me and most people....

Frankly, I really could care less how the money is spent. I'm a fan and my first and only priority is enjoying the best competition possible. Salary caps, salary floors, luxury taxes and all these other schemes being discussed do NOTHING to address the core issue: making the consequences of not competing too painful for any sensible ballclub to ignore.

munchman33
04-09-2006, 10:48 PM
the team has only been gutted once (and nowhere near this extent) before 2006 and it took several years and two NEW ownership groups before the team was briefly successful again.

You're right, this is the second time. But it's the third time they're starting from scratch. But brief success? C'mon. Stop being an idiot. Winnning a world series is the ultimate success.

This is the second ownership group since Wayne dumped the team and while the 1998 and next few years were not the best squads, they fielded major league ballplayers - not these AA castoffs who are not even prospects. I classified the majority of the team who are not major league worthy. Your weak attempt at addressing that was they have 3 or 4 prospects. Big ****ing deal. People have boxes of Lorenzo Gray rookie cards and other equally worthless prospects and they are as worthless as this Marlins team.

Now you're making me laugh. The Marlins now have about ELEVEN pitching prospects that have a pretty darn good chance of being a staff ace. Some more than others, but seven of them would easily be the top prospect in more than half of the organizations in baseball. And they don't have 4 position player "prospects." They have four can't miss guys, and a ton of other prospects that are exceptional talents. And Willis and Cabrera on top of that. The Marlins will be better this year than you think. You'll see. They won't finish last. And not just because the Nationals are terrible.

The bottom line is revenue should not be shared with the Marlins

Why? Because you're jealous that an owner has figured out how to make a lot of money? Owners figure out ways to do that anyway. At least the Marlins compete. I'd rather be a fan of the Marlins than a team like the Royals, who spent their revenue sharing money this year, but have little hope in the next decade of winning even 70 games.

Your defense of this is laughable. Pocketing a $30 million net profit this year is irrelevant to their future
Yeah, I hardly think any organization could use $30 million dollars in the future, especially one with a fickle fanbase and no stadium deal in the future.....


There is no excuse to not field a professional team.


You're not a baseball person. Neither I am, or half these idiots who write those articles bashing the marlins. But the baseball people that do write are excited about the immense collection of young talent the Marlins have assembled. Maybe if you read something meaningful like that instead of that national enquirer-bash everyone for a story crap you've been reading you'd understand.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-10-2006, 12:35 AM
Stop being an idiot....You're not a baseball person. Neither I am, or half these idiots who write those articles bashing the marlins. But the baseball people that do write are excited about the immense collection of young talent the Marlins have assembled. Maybe if you read something meaningful like that instead of that national enquirer-bash everyone for a story crap you've been reading you'd understand.

I'm not "baseball people" but I "know" posters who disagree with me, most Miami baseball fans who no longer buy tickets (and the ones who regret they did) and writers I don't agree with are all idiots.

Don't tell me what I do and do not understand. You have demonstrated that you will support any spin fed to you by "baseball people" and defend the indefensible. I understand what you are saying and you make a valid point that it makes sense to rebuild if your core is old. That still does not excuse a team to spend a record setting 1/3 of the amount the 29th team spends and make ZERO effort to field a competitive team over the next few years despite the fact you are given $30 million each year in welfare payments to spend on the field.

The Marlins ARE NOT COMPETING. Your discussion about past teams has no bearing on what they are doing in 2006 or will do in 2007 & beyond. The team won their first World Series two owners and one RICO lawsuit / settlement ago and had NOTHING to do with tearing down a team. Wayne built the first team with money - not by fielding a team with 20 guys at the MLB minimum.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?year=2006&team=20

John Henry & Dave Dombrowski built the second team from scratch yet their payroll to start the season in 1999 WAS GREATER THAN THE 2006 TEAM PAYROLL even though MLB salaries have more than doubled since then. They built the team via free agents and trading with a couple of draft picks. Derek Lee was the only starter on the 2003 team who was acquired during the 1998 firesale and I would expect maybe a couple of players to be on the squad six years from now.

Loria looted the Montreal franchise before being handed this team in a three way deal (which Bud (MLB), John and Loria were subsequently sued for and which the defendants had to pay Montreal minority ownership for their actions) and since he has alienated the City of Miami and the local governments in his demands for hundreds of millions of dollars.

I wonder why fans and cities from coast (Miami) to coast (Portland) as well as Canadians reject this great and innovative welfare recipient. Cities should be giving this man a blank check and pay for his stadium, his team and anything else he wants without hesitation - baseball people told me so. :rolleyes:

munchman33
04-10-2006, 11:10 AM
You have demonstrated that you will support any spin fed to you by "baseball people" and defend the indefensible.

I can see you aren't going to take anything I say seriously, so I'm just going to stop after this.

Your position that payroll is tied to talent is ludacris. Your inexplicable contempt for serious baseball talent evaluating writers is only made more laughable by your regard for slanderous beat writers.

The Marlins are in a youth movement. The bulk of their talent is about a year away. Some is ready now. Should they pay to field a team of veterans that will certainly lose and be replaced by midseason anyways? Hell no. Let the kids play. Let them develop. Would they be better off with a $40 million payroll? Not a chance. At least playing kids is moving forward.

areilly
04-10-2006, 12:04 PM
For what it's worth, I don't think the recent salary dump is anywhere near on the scale of what happened after 1997 - the two teams weren't even comparable. The 1997 team was bought to win, and there's no way you can look up and down that roster and say otherwise. Alou, Kevin Brown, Bobby Bo, Alex Fernandez, etc. Hired guns, all of them...they out-Yanked the Yankees, so to speak, and it payed off.

The 2003 team resembled a contender on paper, but was more a consequence of the team coming together at the right team while other teams fell apart at the wrong time. They've been a garbage franchise all along, but got lucky enough for a second title. The weather is awful, the fans are non-existent, and the ownership has been carpetbagging jackass after carpetbagging jackass.

Sad to say it, but David Wells was right: baseball has no business being played in Florida.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-10-2006, 12:13 PM
I can see you aren't going to take anything I say seriously, so I'm just going to stop after this.

Your position that payroll is tied to talent is ludacris. Your inexplicable contempt for serious baseball talent evaluating writers is only made more laughable by your regard for slanderous beat writers.

The Marlins are in a youth movement. The bulk of their talent is about a year away. Some is ready now. Should they pay to field a team of veterans that will certainly lose and be replaced by midseason anyways? Hell no. Let the kids play. Let them develop. Would they be better off with a $40 million payroll? Not a chance. At least playing kids is moving forward.

It is best you stop your ludacris defense of the Marlins and their contemptable ownership. They were sued for their looting the Montreal organization and paid millions to settle the RICO lawsuit. Loria is currently violating the Collective Bargaining Agreement, not that MLB ownership has ever worried about violating their agreements in the past (exhibit 1 & 2 - Collusion I and Collusion II).

As reported by Ronald Blum of AP (presumably another "slanderous" writer):

"I don't see a need for increased revenue sharing," Fehr said, adding that revenue sharing and the luxury tax discourage teams from growing revenue.

Players also are concerned about teams that receive money, which according to the labor contract must be spent by a franchise "in an effort to improve its performance on the field."

"There's an issue as to whether or not clubs are using revenue-sharing receipts in an appropriate way," Fehr said.

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf Page 78 - 80

Bud Selig is pushing for increased revenue sharing for the new CBA, demanding that people who actually go out and work for a living (be it MLB teams who actually attempt to compete or taxpayers who pay for MLB stadiums) to increase subsidies for several organizations who are not following the CBA and are pocketing revenue sharing proceeds as opposed to why the reason they were inserted - to improve the quality of competition among low revenue teams.

Several of the 17 players earning the MLB minimum on the Marlins roster this season are not legitimate MLB players including a majority of their pitching staff. These are not legitimate prospects (not even Joe Borchard prospects)and would not be on a "MLB" roster if it weren't for the shameful plan of Loria and the Marlins. Mid season callups to replace these AA players will be even worse. This sham is plain to see for just about everyone regardless of whether they read or do not read articles by approved writers.

Hangar18
04-10-2006, 12:39 PM
Its sickening .................. whats been happening with the Marlins, Jeff Loria, MLB, Bud Selig, the Nationals, The Pirates

SOXintheBURGH
04-10-2006, 12:57 PM
Its sickening .................. whats been happening with the Marlins, Jeff Loria, MLB, Bud Selig, the Nationals, The Pirates

LOL the only thing you know about the Pirates is a salary dump three seasons ago that you still rant about. Had they traded Ramirez to the Mariners you wouldn't care at all.

munchman33
04-10-2006, 02:00 PM
"I don't see a need for increased revenue sharing," Fehr said, adding that revenue sharing and the luxury tax discourage teams from growing revenue.


"There's an issue as to whether or not clubs are using revenue-sharing receipts in an appropriate way," Fehr said.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wait, could you quote me Fehr's opinion on this again....I could use another good laugh. Seriously, quoting Fehr on this issue is like asking Sadam Hussein his opinions on American soldiers in Iraq.


Several of the 17 players earning the MLB minimum on the Marlins roster this season are not legitimate MLB players including a majority of their pitching staff. These are not legitimate prospects (not even Joe Borchard prospects)and would not be on a "MLB" roster if it weren't for the shameful plan of Loria and the Marlins.

According to who? You? No? Would you be so kind as to show me the player analysis you read for each of these prospects saying they don't belong in the major leagues? Can't do that? Didn't think so. Your opinion on those players is not based on anything but your hatred of Loria, and its obvious. Stop now, you're embarrassing yourself.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-10-2006, 04:49 PM
[/i]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wait, could you quote me Fehr's opinion on this again....I could use another good laugh. Seriously, quoting Fehr on this issue is like asking Sadam Hussein his opinions on American soldiers in Iraq.


Too bad for you most of Miami, this board and MLB fans agrees with this assessment. MLB has lied and broken their agreements in the past. Go back to MLB.com and read more press releases, the only non slanderous source of the news. Debating this further with you is like debating how bad the Cubs suck with Ronnie Woo Woo - i.e. it is "ludacris".

Enjoy your sorry team today and beyond. You deserve each other.

Ol' No. 2
04-10-2006, 05:01 PM
You mean they're making a ton of money this year, and they've got some of the best, cheap young talent in all of baseball, meaning they're in a position to be good and lucrative in the future. The horror.

Believe me, by next year the Marlins organization will once again be the envy of baseball general managers everywhere, even if their fans can't appreciate how they operate.You're putting a lot of faith in the Marlins' ability to develop their young players into something more than also-rans. There certainly isn't a direct link between payroll and performance. Top spending teams don't always win. But bottom spending teams pretty much always lose. There's simply no way to build a winning team on $15M. By the time those young players develop into anything resembling a quality team they're going to get more expensive and Loria will dump them again. Recognize it for what it is. Loria is pulling a Rachel Phelps.

StockdaleForVeep
04-10-2006, 05:16 PM
I hope Florida's attendance is zero this season.



Why so the owner can move em to cleveland?
http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/reviews/secretofmysuccessvira.jpg
"YES YES PARKMAN YOU STUD!"

munchman33
04-10-2006, 05:18 PM
You're putting a lot of faith in the Marlins' ability to develop their young players into something more than also-rans. There certainly isn't a direct link between payroll and performance. Top spending teams don't always win. But bottom spending teams pretty much always lose. There's simply no way to build a winning team on $15M. By the time those young players develop into anything resembling a quality team they're going to get more expensive and Loria will dump them again. Recognize it for what it is. Loria is pulling a Rachel Phelps.

There's never been a team like this though...there's a lot of talent. They won't win this year, but they'll get better. And the payroll will rise as the players get service time anyways. Will Loria dump again? Probably, if he's still around. But not until after they've won cheaply for a few years.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-10-2006, 05:50 PM
This is getting silly. You guys are complaining about the same thing, and neither of you appear to have a clue how to solve it. Loria faces no penalty for fielding a lousy team. That must change.

You're complaining about Loria making a travishamockery of Major League Baseball by fielding a team that isn't major league. THE FACT HE IS MAKING MONEY WHILE DOING THIS IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE! It's baseball that is being hurt, whether Loria makes a billion dollars or loses his ass. The Marlins won't be even remotely competitive.

If baseball fans really care about the Florida Marlins, they'll refuse to spend money to see any game -- home or away -- involving Loria's Marlins.

Contact your season ticket rep and tell them you expect compensation for any game they are charging you major league prices to watch your team play that travishamockery ballclub Loria is fielding. Turn your tickets in or deduct the face value from your next payment. Scratch out any verbage regarding paying in full for season tickets, or add your own verbage regarding no payment for any tickets involving the Marlins. The Marlins ARE NOT a major league team!

Free tickets, free food, free parking, free catering, free perks... take your pick. MLB owners will take action to fix their Loria problem when they start footing the bill amongst their own fan base.

If you're stupid enough to pay to see the Marlins, then stop bitching about it.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-10-2006, 06:24 PM
You're complaining about Loria making a travishamockery of Major League Baseball by fielding a team that isn't major league.

I also call it a travishamockery. The other poster is calling it a savvy plan which will surely result in a World Series (even though neither of the Marlins World Series teams were built via this method and only one player was aquired in the 1998 fire sale ever played for the championship team in 2003).

I agree with you that this should be penalized but in actuality Bud Selig is encouraging this travishamockery by

1. Demanding more revenue sharing in the next CBA and

2. Not enforcing the provisions in the current CBA that shared revenue is to be spent on the field, not pocketed.

Selig operated his club in a similar fashion (though not to this pathetic extent) and demanded revenue sharing and government welfare while he owned his 3% capitalized team in a blind trust. As in most issues confronting baseball, Bud is the cause of the problem, not the soultion.

Most of us realize The Marlins ARE NOT a major league team! though there are a few who will never differ from the company line.

If Reinsdorf did this the board and White Sox Army would be calling for his head. Good thing they are in the "*****" league as Dick Allen called it and are of little concern to the Chicago White Sox though as a baseball fan I am still disgusted.

ewokpelts
04-10-2006, 06:32 PM
This is getting silly. You guys are complaining about the same thing, and neither of you appear to have a clue how to solve it. Loria faces no penalty for fielding a lousy team. That must change.

You're complaining about Loria making a travishamockery of Major League Baseball by fielding a team that isn't major league. THE FACT HE IS MAKING MONEY WHILE DOING THIS IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE! It's baseball that is being hurt, whether Loria makes a billion dollars or loses his ass. The Marlins won't be even remotely competitive.

If baseball fans really care about the Florida Marlins, they'll refuse to spend money to see any game -- home or away -- involving Loria's Marlins.

Contact your season ticket rep and tell them you expect compensation for any game they are charging you major league prices to watch your team play that travishamockery ballclub Loria is fielding. Turn your tickets in or deduct the face value from your next payment. Scratch out any verbage regarding paying in full for season tickets, or add your own verbage regarding no payment for any tickets involving the Marlins. The Marlins ARE NOT a major league team!

Free tickets, free food, free parking, free catering, free perks... take your pick. MLB owners will take action to fix their Loria problem when they start footing the bill amongst their own fan base.

If you're stupid enough to pay to see the Marlins, then stop bitching about it.Why do people think that MLB should punish Loria?
He's only acting like uncle jerry.
White Flag trade anyone? slash payroll so you can pocket easy money
New Comiskey Park? threaten leaving town for a new stadium

And last i remember, there were a ton of young players on the late 80's sox rosters as they were bullying for a new stadium

Loria was already punished for Montreal...he was given the marlins and told to get a stadium....
Loria's only sin as owner of the marlins was beating the cubs in 03, but it really only angered Fox.
It's evident South Florida dosent want to pay for a stadium. But the proposals arent that good anyways.
The marlins dont want to play anywhere near joe robbe stadium( i dont really like calling it dolphins stadium)
The orange bowl should not be retrofitted for baseball (although a new building near it is not bad)
The state didnt want Don King's land offer (all he asked in return was a license to promote boxing matches there)

Let's face it....baseball in florida was a bad idea...sure, spring training's nice(although that's on the way out too), but a full season of baseball in a land of snowbirds and tourists is not feasible.
They cant get a deal for a two time world champion? And the second championship team DIDNT get dismatled, but actually posted THREE winning seasons in a row?
Let them go to vegas or san antonio.
Gene

PaleHoseGeorge
04-10-2006, 07:09 PM
Why do people think that MLB should punish Loria?
He's only acting like uncle jerry.
White Flag trade anyone? slash payroll so you can pocket easy money
New Comiskey Park? threaten leaving town for a new stadium

And last i remember, there were a ton of young players on the late 80's sox rosters as they were bullying for a new stadium...
Look, it's YOUR ****ing money. Stop acting like MLB knocked you over the head and stole it from you.

You want to spend your money to see the '06 Marlins? Fine. You want to spend your money to see the '87 Sox. Nobody is stopping you. Just please stop whining about it, okay?

I really could care less whether Loria loses out on getting my money, or Reinsdorf loses out on getting my money, or any of the other MLB owners loses out. The point is THEY WANT YOUR MONEY. Stop being a sap, and stop giving it to them, while wasting everyone else's time bitching about it.

ewokpelts
04-10-2006, 07:20 PM
Look, it's YOUR ****ing money. Stop acting like MLB knocked you over the head and stole it from you.

You want to spend your money to see the '06 Marlins? Fine. You want to spend your money to see the '87 Sox. Nobody is stopping you. Just please stop whining about it, okay?

I really could care less whether Loria loses out on getting my money, or Reinsdorf loses out on getting my money, or any of the other MLB owners loses out. The point is THEY WANT YOUR MONEY. Stop being a sap, and stop giving it to them, while wasting everyone else's time bitching about it.I dont know why u think I'm giving loria any of my money.....but the fact remains: MLB and Selig will NOT punish an owner for doing what other owners already have done, including Selig himself.
In fact, if you ask me, as soon as the nationals get an owner (a team that before moving to washington, slashed payroll REAL small and generally sucked eggs for a while, but once they got a city that can be suckered for 400 million, decided to start spending and competing), mlb will not only move the marlins, but also find them a new owner. As for Loria? He'll be promoted..to baltimore. Angelos will get bought out, and loria gets a true east coast team that's closer to his ny art businesses.
Gene

SoLongFrank
04-10-2006, 07:29 PM
I think they will look at this in the next CBA. Revenue sharing is based on the belief that a more competitive playing field is better for business. Those dollars are intended to be used on player payrolls.

It's up to the union to correct this greviance with a fair & reasonable addendum to the current policy:

A team's kitty pot is capped by their player payroll. The kitty pot is that which the team receives from MLB's local media revenue sharing.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-10-2006, 07:40 PM
I dont know why u think I'm giving loria any of my money.....but the fact remains: MLB and Selig will NOT punish an owner for doing what other owners already have done, including Selig himself.

Well with that attitude, Gene, why the **** are you bitching???? You're willing to do EXACTLY NOTHING about the situation. You're arguing with me why nothing can be done.

If you believe nothing can be done, then you've forfeited your right to bitch.

Salary caps, salary floors, luxury taxes, and all this other nonsense won't fix the problem you're bitching about. Loria can field a "major league" team that isn't major league. If the Marlins come to Chicago, not one Sox Fan (or Cub fan) should fork over one solitary dollar to Reinsdorf or the Cubune. Anyone who does is freely allowing themselves to get ripped off.

Daver
04-10-2006, 09:06 PM
To point out some things for Gene, since he is delusional.

Jeffrey Loria stuck MLB with the Expos, and forced them to loan him the funds to buy the Marlins, by threatening to file bankruptcy as the owner of the Expos. With that action he also opened MLB up for a series of lawsuits from minority owners of the Expos that have not been settled, and probably won't be till the Expos are sold.

Jeffrey Loria took over a relatively healthy Expos franchise, and ran it into the ground in the matter of a few years, with bad business decisions, a cocky attitude with his sponsors and partners, and a downright stupid attitude with potential broadcast partners, which left the Expos with no TV and no English radio coverage. He made up for this by slashing payroll both on field and off, and forced his GM to spend their once strong farm system into obscurity in order to field a team that might win eighty games.

Loria is a snake that does not deserve the right to own an MLB franchise, moreso than any other self interested owner in the sport today.

Ol' No. 2
04-10-2006, 09:07 PM
Well with that attitude, Gene, why the **** are you bitching???? You're willing to do EXACTLY NOTHING about the situation. You're arguing with me why nothing can be done.

If you believe nothing can be done, then you've forfeited your right to bitch.

Salary caps, salary floors, luxury taxes, and all this other nonsense won't fix the problem you're bitching about. Loria can field a "major league" team that isn't major league. If the Marlins come to Chicago, not one Sox Fan (or Cub fan) should fork over one solitary dollar to Reinsdorf or the Cubune. Anyone who does is freely allowing themselves to get ripped off.Unfortunately, Loria couldn't care less if anyone comes out to see the team. He makes a tidy profit without selling a single ticket. THAT is the problem.

This is not about punishing Loria. He's just taking advantage of a system with perverse incentives. He's not the problem - if it wasn't him, it would be someone else. The problem is the system that lets (encourages) him to do what he's doing.

The whole idea of revenue sharing is to allow teams in less profitable markets to at least attempt to field competitive teams. Putting the money in his pocket just subverts that purpose. There is no reason why it should be allowed. Receipt of revenue sharing should be conditional on spending it for its intended purpose. I see no reason to give a team $30M in revenue sharing when they have a $15M payroll.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 08:05 AM
....
The whole idea of revenue sharing is to allow teams in less profitable markets to at least attempt to field competitive teams. Putting the money in his pocket just subverts that purpose. There is no reason why it should be allowed. Receipt of revenue sharing should be conditional on spending it for its intended purpose. I see no reason to give a team $30M in revenue sharing when they have a $15M payroll.

MLB does have revenue sharing and have-not ballclubs suck just as much as they ever did... plus we've eliminated the financial pain of fielding a loser. MLB gives them a welfare check to stay in business!
:o:

So here is the key question too many here like yourself apparently are too confused to answer: is it MONEY that bothers you or LOUSY COMPETITION?

Think hard. The answer ought to obvious to anyone who isn't so lazy as to think "nothing can be done" about the problem.
:kukoo:

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 09:27 AM
On a semi-related note, Ken Rosenthal reports that the Marlins will likely trade Dontrelle Willis this year before he gets what he estimates as salaries of $7-11M/yr in arbitration over the next 2 years. He goes further to say teams like the Braves, Cubs, & BoSox will ine up with deals starting with their top prospects (Jarrod Saltomacchia, Felix Pie, Jon Lester). He also comments that Cabrera would be next on the block.

If that happens, I think you sell the farm to get Cabrera. He's an absolute stud. You open the farm and say "take your pick, any 3 guys" to get him.

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2006, 09:31 AM
MLB does have revenue sharing and have-not ballclubs suck just as much as they ever did... plus we've eliminated the financial pain of fielding a loser. MLB gives them a welfare check to stay in business!
:o:

So here is the key question too many here like yourself apparently are too confused to answer: is it MONEY that bothers you or LOUSY COMPETITION?

Think hard. The answer ought to obvious to anyone who isn't so lazy as to think "nothing can be done" about the problem.
:kukoo:It's both. I don't agree that a salary minimum will have no effect. No matter what kind of stadium you have or what city you are in, more people will come out to see a good team than a bad one (with one notable exception, **cough**flubs**cough). That is a built-in incentive for owners to put the best team on the field they can afford. Loria is a snake, but he's no fool. If he has to spend the money, he's going to do so in a way that maximizes his return. But no-strings-attached revenue sharing is a perverse incentive that turns this on its head. Loria has figured out that he can make more money putting crap on the field, even if no one shows up, because he has $60M/yr coming in no matter what. What happens when some other owner of a struggling franchise who's trying to put out the best product he can while making no profit looks at Loria and asks "Why am I being a sucker?" Once the second team adopts that model, the third won't be far behind, and soon you have a permanent class off faux major league teams. If you think have-not teams are bad now, just wait. It's inevitable with the current system.

Moreover, even if I never buy a ticket to a Marlins game, because of revenue sharing I can't buy a ticket to a White Sox game without indirectly rewarding Loria for fielding a AAA team, and THAT pisses me off.

Here's my proposal. Assume a base payroll (say $20M). No team would collect revenue sharing equal to more than the amount of their payroll over that base. The MLBPA never liked revenue sharing, anyway, and I think they'd gladly agree to this system.

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 09:37 AM
A salary floor won't be effective. Ballclubs will spend just enough to meet the minimum with no regard for whether the players they spend on their payroll have any talent at all. Why work at building a champion when it's easier (and cheaper) to sign 25 dopes off the street?


In a scenario with a salary floor, I think it's pretty likely that even a team trying to stay at the floor will try to field as good a team as they can within the confines of that. So while you may have instances in which a team signs a chump to a big contract to meet the requirement, I think that would only happen if they couldn't find a better player at the same price. In other words, they'd fill the roster with the best players at market prices. If the market goes above their budgeted room, they'll find below market players.

Owners are competitive guys. Yes, they prioritize finances significantly higher than winning in many cases, but they'd still rather win at a certain salary level than not. They wouldn't be in the positions they're in if they weren't competitive.

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 09:42 AM
Here's my proposal. Assume a base payroll (say $20M). No team would collect revenue sharing equal to more than the amount of their payroll over that base. The MLBPA never liked revenue sharing, anyway, and I think they'd gladly agree to this system.

It's a good idea. A couple of tweaks I'd make would be to include signing bonuses to draft picks in the "revenue sharing budget", which would allow a team to undergo a true rebuilding process at times without being penalized. And/or you could use a 3-yr average payroll so that if you dip below in 1-2 years to rebuild you could cover for it by increasing payroll once the process begins to deliver.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 09:43 AM
In a scenario with a salary floor, I think it's pretty likely that even a team trying to stay at the floor will try to field as good a team as they can within the confines of that.
Nonsense. If an owner is required to spend $30 million to reach the floor, and he already has commitments to ballplayers under contract for $28 million, he really doesn't give a rat's ass how the last $2 million gets spent, just as long as it costs him $2 million and not a penny more. You seriously think this sounds like a practical way to make an owner field a competitive team???
:o:

Stop worrying about the money. IT'S ABOUT COMPETITION! Until you create disincentives for owners who refuse to field competitive teams, you're just pulling your pud worrying about the money.

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 10:02 AM
Nonsense. If an owner is required to spend $30 million to reach the floor, and he already has commitments to ballplayers under contract for $28 million, he really doesn't give a rat's ass how the last $2 million gets spent, just as long as it costs him $2 million and not a penny more. You seriously think this sounds like a practical way to make an owner field a competitive team???
:o:

Stop worrying about the money. IT'S ABOUT COMPETITION! Until you create disincentives for owners who refuse to field competitive teams, you're just pulling your pud worrying about the money.

I disagree with your first statement. Yes, the first concern is spending $2M and not $3M. But within that, I think the owner, GM, and most others will much prefer to spend that $2M on a guy like Luis Vizcaino or Scott Eyre than by pulling Mike Jackson in off the street. It's not a system guaranteed to make them field a competitive team, it's a system that makes it more likely for them to do so.

Finances are definitely first and foremost. But it's not like these guys don't care one way or the other if their team absolutely sucks. It's just a lesser priority to them.

As for your 2d point, I agree the best way is to focus on results. But I don't believe that type of structural change has a hope in hell of happening, whereas the financial changes are feasible, even if they have a lesser impact. Practical, albiet baby steps.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 10:11 AM
Finances are definitely first and foremost. But it's not like these guys don't care one way or the other if their team absolutely sucks. It's just a lesser priority to them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See, this is why you're dead wrong. You're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. If it's about COMPETITION, a salary floor makes no difference to an owner whether your stupid salary floor idea requires him to spend $30 million, $40 million, or even $100 million to fill his roster with a competitive team. How do I know? BECAUSE YOU JUST TOLD ME SO RIGHT HERE! ^^^^^^^^

If you want to demand owners field a competitive team, make sure the incentives (or disincentives) are there for rewarding COMPETITION, not how much money was or wasn't spent. Worrying about money doesn't address competition.

Sheesh... it's like talking to a wall...

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 10:17 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See, this is why you're dead wrong. You're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. If it's about COMPETITION, a salary floor makes no difference to an owner whether your stupid salary floor idea requires him to spend $30 million, $40 million, or even $100 million to fill his roster with a competitive team. How do I know? BECAUSE YOU JUST TOLD ME SO RIGHT HERE! ^^^^^^^^

If you want to demand owners field a competitive team, make sure the incentives (or disincentives) are there for rewarding COMPETITION, not how much money was or wasn't spent. Worrying about money doesn't address competition.

Sheesh... it's like talking to a wall...

Competition matters to them, but finances matter more. Forcing them to spend more $$$ will not mean, as you said, that they'll just spend it on bad players, it means that they'll spend it on who they think are the best players out there.

What this means is that if the Marlins are suddenly forced to spend an extra $20M, they're not going to scrounge the rec leagues for guys to pay that to - they're going to a) resign Cabrera/Willis rather than trading them and b)find actual MLB players to pay it to rather than minimum-salaried, AAAA players. That will give them a more competitive team.

Again - it's not a be-all/end-all solution, but it's an improvement over the current state. And it's something that can actually happen. Your "premier league" concept, while striking at the heart of the problem, is incredibly unlikely to happen.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 10:23 AM
Again - it's not a be-all/end-all solution, but it's an improvement over the current state. And it's something that can actually happen. Your "premier league" concept, while striking at the heart of the problem, is incredibly unlikely to happen.

Correction: it's not a be-all/end-all solution. It's NO solution.

It's a "solution" that makes you feel warm and fuzzy that Loria is forced to spend $30 million on absolute ****. You WANT this to mean the Marlins will be competitive, but you have no answer to me besides equivocating that "deep down Loria really wants to field a winner." You admit your salary floor won't force him to do this, but you want a salary floor anyway?

This is pure jabberwocky...

:o:

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 10:32 AM
Correction: it's not a be-all/end-all solution. It's NO solution.

It's a "solution" that makes you feel warm and fuzzy that Loria is forced to spend $30 million on absolute ****. You WANT this to mean the Marlins will be competitive, but you have no answer to me besides equivocating that "deep down Loria really wants to field a winner." You admit your salary floor won't force him to do this, but you want a salary floor anyway?

This is pure jabberwocky...

:o:

Actually, no. While I would love a solution that forces them to be competitive, I haven't yet seen one proposed. Even the "Premier League" solution doesn't do that - they'll just cry poor, spend little, and talk up how they've got such great young talent that in a few years, they'll be winning enough to advance to the upper division.

The "warm & fuzzy" you're talking about is just practical experience & common sense. It may fit your world view that owners care about nothing but money, but in the real world, there are lots of other concerns, it's just that they're secondary to money. Giving them no option but to spend it takes away the financial priority (at least to the level of the salary floor). You assume that at that point there's nothing else they care about, which is pretty much contrary to human nature.

voodoochile
04-11-2006, 10:33 AM
The players union argued against a salary floor because they felt the money would just go to signing high end minor league guys and not to veterans.

Salary floor will drive up the players salaries over all, but not have a huge impact on competition. In the end other teams will simply be forced to pay higher salaries to the good players they actually want.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 10:34 AM
The "warm & fuzzy" you're talking about is just practical experience & common sense.

Warm and fuzzy is EXACTLY what it is. It's makes you feel good to know Loria is spending $30 million. What a fool... his team will still suck because you're willing to let him field a loser just as long as its a $30 million loser.

:kukoo:

Flight #24
04-11-2006, 10:47 AM
Warm and fuzzy is EXACTLY what it is. It's makes you feel good to know Loria is spending $30 million. What a fool... his team will still suck because you're willing to let him field a loser just as long as its a $30 million loser.

:kukoo:

I'd also like to live in a world where I don't have to worry about crime, but guess what - it ain't happening in the real world. It's nice to think about "real" solutions, but unless they have a chance in hell of actually occurring, it's just mental gymnastics.

There is no solution that forces a team to compete. Even your idea allows Loria to field his loser as long as he admits his team can't compete for a title because it's in the lower division. But you get your warm & fuzzy because he's admitted it, huh?

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2006, 11:00 AM
Nonsense. If an owner is required to spend $30 million to reach the floor, and he already has commitments to ballplayers under contract for $28 million, he really doesn't give a rat's ass how the last $2 million gets spent, just as long as it costs him $2 million and not a penny more. You seriously think this sounds like a practical way to make an owner field a competitive team???
:o:

Stop worrying about the money. IT'S ABOUT COMPETITION! Until you create disincentives for owners who refuse to field competitive teams, you're just pulling your pud worrying about the money.Incentives to be competitive are exactly what we're talking about. As long as more people will pay to see a better team, there is a built-in incentive to field the best team possible within whatever budget a team has. You don't need a disincentive for owners who refuse to field competitive teams - it's already there. You just need to remove the more attractive disincentive against fielding competitive teams, which is what the current no-strings-attached revenue sharing system is.

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 11:25 AM
Well with that attitude, Gene, why the **** are you bitching???? You're willing to do EXACTLY NOTHING about the situation. You're arguing with me why nothing can be done.

If you believe nothing can be done, then you've forfeited your right to bitch.

Salary caps, salary floors, luxury taxes, and all this other nonsense won't fix the problem you're bitching about. Loria can field a "major league" team that isn't major league. If the Marlins come to Chicago, not one Sox Fan (or Cub fan) should fork over one solitary dollar to Reinsdorf or the Cubune. Anyone who does is freely allowing themselves to get ripped off.
I'm in Chicago, NOT MIAMI.
Even if i was a Marlins Fan, I cannot boycott or support them, since I'm OVER 1500 MILES AWAY!

And when it was uncle jerry doing all this stuff, were YOU BOYCOTTING THE SOX? Were you talking with your wallet the last 46 years of non-al championship baseball?
Why do I get the impression I already know the answer?
Gene

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 12:09 PM
I'm in Chicago, NOT MIAMI.
Even if i was a Marlins Fan, I cannot boycott or support them, since I'm OVER 1500 MILES AWAY!

And when it was uncle jerry doing all this stuff, were YOU BOYCOTTING THE SOX? Were you talking with your wallet the last 46 years of non-al championship baseball?
Why do I get the impression I already know the answer?
Gene
Blah blah blah... anyone spending money to see the Marlins -- home or away -- is getting fleeced. Like you who thinks nothing can be done about it, they forfeit their right to bitch about the problem they themselves perpetuate. I'll grant that you didn't create the problem with your obstinate opinion that nothing can be done, but you're definitely preventing the problem from being solved with your obstinate attitude about finding a solution.

And as for the Sox of the late-80s, their payroll was not the comparably lilleputian amount that Loria's is to today's payrolls. This only further highlights the silliness of confusing equal spending with equal competitiveness.

It would be helpful if you and the salary tax/salary floor/luxury tax "burn the owners at the stake" crowd could finally tell the difference between worrying about money and worrying about competitiveness.
:cool:

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 12:18 PM
Blah blah blah... anyone spending money to see the Marlins -- home or away -- is getting fleeced. Like you who thinks nothing can be done about it, they forfeit their right to bitch about the problem they themselves perpetuate. I'll grant that you didn't create the problem with your obstinate opinion that nothing can be done, but you're definitely preventing the problem from being solved with your obstinate attitude about finding a solution.

And as for the Sox of the late-80s, their payroll was not the comparably lilleputian amount that Loria's is to today's payrolls. This only further highlights the silliness of confusing equal spending with equal competitiveness.

It would be helpful if you and the salary tax/salary floor/luxury tax "burn the owners at the stake" crowd could finally tell the difference between worrying about money and worrying about competitiveness.
:cool:You DIDNT answer my question.

Here's two more I expect you not to answer.
How many games did you go to in 1998?
1999?

I'll answer my own question.
1998? none
1999? two, and I only paid for one(opening day)

Gene

p.s. and George? It's always about the money. As long as OUR tax dollars go into Comiskey Park & Soldier Field. If the hotel tax cant cover the ammount owed to the bonds payment, where do you think the money comes from? thin air?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 12:18 PM
There is no solution that forces a team to compete. Even your idea allows Loria to field his loser as long as he admits his team can't compete for a title because it's in the lower division. But you get your warm & fuzzy because he's admitted it, huh?

I get warm and fuzzy knowing Loria's Marlins will never darken the doorstep of any ballclub with real championship aspirations. Those are major league ballclubs, worthy of the time and money spent supporting them. Loria gets no free ticket to make a mockery of the game.

You want to spend your time worrying about how much Loria does or doesn't spend. I could care less. I only care that major league teams are stocked with major league talent. You haven't offered anything BUT EXCUSES and EQUIVOCATIONS for solving nothing.

I'm in favor of a salary floor if only so you and No. 2 can be made to look like even bigger fools five years from now when the $30 million Florida Marlins lose 110 games with 25 guys Loria recruited in a Dade County gymnasium after pocketing 100 percent of his farm system budget.

You think you're smart enough to outfox Loria on finances? Think again.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 12:23 PM
p.s. and George? It's always about the money. As long as OUR tax dollars go into Comiskey Park & Soldier Field. If the hotel tax cant cover the ammount owed to the bonds payment, where do you think the money comes from? thin air?

You're right, Gene. Let's goose-step our way down to 35th and Shields, march Reinsdorf and the entire White Sox board out behind the barn, put a gun to their temple, and dare them to piss you off one more time.

Only a foolish and totalitarian mind could conceive of solving a problem like you would.
:o:

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2006, 12:27 PM
I get warm and fuzzy knowing Loria's Marlins will never darken the doorstep of any ballclub with real championship aspirations. Those are major league ballclubs, worthy of the time and money spent supporting them. Loria gets no free ticket to make a mockery of the game.

You want to spend your time worrying about how much Loria does or doesn't spend. I could care less. I only care that major league teams are stocked with major league talent. You haven't offered anything BUT EXCUSES and EQUIVOCATIONS for solving nothing.

I'm in favor of a salary floor if only so you and No. 2 can be made to look like even bigger fools five years from now when the $30 million Florida Marlins lose 110 games with 25 guys Loria recruited in a Dade County gymnasium after pocketing 100 percent of his farm system budget.

You think you're smart enough to outfox Loria on finances? Think again.You have yet to explain why an owner would spend $30M on bad players in preference to spending the exact same amount on better players. As long as more fans will pay to see the better players, he'd be a fool to do so. Moreover, under the plan I suggested, the extra money wouldn't even come out of his pocket, since it would be covered by increased revenue sharing money. Why would he not put a better product on the field if it didn't cost him any more out of his own pocket?

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 12:37 PM
Why would he not put a better product on the field if it didn't cost him any more out of his own pocket?

Ummm.... because putting together a COMPETITIVE team might actually involve work???
:o:

The easy -- and cheap -- solution is to fill out the roster with any spare parts you can find. In fact, Loria is plenty smart enough to "spend" his $30 million on a bunch of sorry-ass ballplayers who would gladly take virtually all of their compensation in deferred payments, thus making Loria's actual payroll a fraction of the required $30 million floor. Make deferred payments non-applicable to the floor? Loria just thinks up another way to save on his overhead -- maybe require the ballplayers to double as sales agents answering phone calls from ticketholders.

Loria WILL make a profit, and you can't force him to make his team competitive by spending money the way you want it spent. Why don't you just give it up already?

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2006, 01:03 PM
Ummm.... because putting together a COMPETITIVE team might actually involve work???
:o:

The easy -- and cheap -- solution is to fill out the roster with any spare parts you can find. In fact, Loria is plenty smart enough to "spend" his $30 million on a bunch of sorry-ass ballplayers who would gladly take virtually all of their compensation in deferred payments, thus making Loria's actual payroll a fraction of the required $30 million floor. Make deferred payments non-applicable to the floor? Loria just thinks up another way to save on his overhead -- maybe require the ballplayers to double as sales agents answering phone calls from ticketholders.

Loria WILL make a profit, and you can't force him to make his team competitive by spending money the way you want it spent. Why don't you just give it up already?Nobody ever said Loria was lazy. If he can make more money putting a competitive team on the field than he can putting bums out there, he'll do it.

I don't give a rat's ass whether Loria makes money or not. Nobody can make him field a competitive team. But they sure as hell shouldn't be providing perverse incentives NOT to field a competitive team, which is what they're doing now. Make no mistake - if they don't address the situation there will soon be another owner who will choose the same course. Then another. Then another.

Hangar18
04-11-2006, 01:49 PM
The Florida Marlins ............ are a joke. Their payroll atrocities are affecting the game in more ways than we can imagine.

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 02:02 PM
You're right, Gene. Let's goose-step our way down to 35th and Shields, march Reinsdorf and the entire White Sox board out behind the barn, put a gun to their temple, and dare them to piss you off one more time.

Only a foolish and totalitarian mind could conceive of solving a problem like you would.
:o:again, you didnt answer my question(S)....

as for your teal comments....i dont know what to make of it....i simply inquired where does the bonds payment come from if the hotel tax cant cover it? I'll answer that one for you....from the general fund. The same general fund most of our state income, sales, property, ect taxes go to.....that means we're getting stuck with the bill for 2 stadiums, one that neede dmassive rennovations, and another that's a toilet bowl frm space.....but money's not the problem, right?

Gene

Mohoney
04-11-2006, 04:04 PM
This sport needs contraction in the worst way, and not just one or two teams, either. I would say that about six teams need to go.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 04:04 PM
again, you didnt answer my question(S)....

as for your teal comments....i dont know what to make of it....i simply inquired where does the bonds payment come from if the hotel tax cant cover it?

Some of us require more reasoning than simply being pissed at someone for forcing them to do something. Not all of us need reasoning, Gene. You're here to prove my point.
:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 04:09 PM
Nobody ever said Loria was lazy. If he can make more money putting a competitive team on the field than he can putting bums out there, he'll do it.
All evidence to the contrary?
:o:

The Marlins have a $15 million payroll. If Loria will willingly pocket an easy $15 million in MLB welfare money, what makes you think he'll work to earn $15 million by fielding a winner? The man doesn't embarrass that easily... even with fans like SSH and Gene ready to hang him from a tree.

And just for the record, Loria IS NOT the first owner to put his MLB welfare check in his pocket. KC and Cincinnati have done the same trick multiple times. So don't worry about Loria setting the bad example. It's utter foolishness to think another competition-enhancing scheme based on spending money wouldn't have these same owners working the angles to enhance their own bottom line -- competition be damned.

Again (for the millionth time) stop worrying about money and start focusing on competition.

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2006, 04:39 PM
All evidence to the contrary?
:o:

The Marlins have a $15 million payroll. If Loria will willingly pocket an easy $15 million in MLB welfare money, what makes you think he'll work to earn $15 million by fielding a winner? The man doesn't embarrass that easily... even with fans like SSH and Gene ready to hang him from a tree.

And just for the record, Loria IS NOT the first owner to put his MLB welfare check in his pocket. KC and Cincinnati have done the same trick multiple times. So don't worry about Loria setting the bad example. It's utter foolishness to think another competition-enhancing scheme based on spending money wouldn't have these same owners working the angles to enhance their own bottom line -- competition be damned.

Again (for the millionth time) stop worrying about money and start focusing on competition.This has nothing to do with embarrassment. One thing you can trust him to do is to do what brings him the most profit. Loria has made a simple economic calculation. Is it worth it to spend another $60M on players to try to be competitive? Assuming he nets $30 for every extra person in the seats, he'd have to draw an extra 2M fans just to break even, much less come out ahead. When there's a ready alternative to just pocket the money and take a sure profit, who's to say it's a wrong decision on a purely economic basis? But remove the alternative and the calculus changes.

You can talk about focussing on competition all you want, but in reality there's no way that has any chance of acceptance to make him field a competitive team. The best you can do is to remove the disincentives and let the normal built-in incentives work.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 04:53 PM
....but in reality there's no way that has any chance of acceptance to make him field a competitive team. The best you can do is to remove the disincentives and let the normal built-in incentives work.
In reality, you get EXACTLY ZERO incremental competitive balance by telling Loria he has to spend X number of dollars (your plan) or, alternately telling Loria he is entitled to X number of dollars for not spending Y number of dollars (Selig's plan).

You and Selig are both talking nonsense. You both want competition but you're loathe to do anything about it besides talk money.

And then you wonder why we're laughing at you?

Sheesh...

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 04:59 PM
Some of us require more reasoning than simply being pissed at someone for forcing them to do something. Not all of us need reasoning, Gene. You're here to prove my point.
:cool:still talking in circles i see....


and you still havent answered my questions.....

Gene

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 05:00 PM
still talking in circles i see....


and you still havent answered my questions.....

Gene

Gene, your questions are stupid. Do I need to spell it out any clearer for you?

Ol' No. 2
04-11-2006, 05:02 PM
In reality, you get EXACTLY ZERO incremental competitive balance by telling Loria he has to spend X number of dollars (your plan) or, alternately telling Loria he is entitled to X number of dollars for not spending X number of dollars (Selig's plan).

You and Selig are both talking nonsense. You both want competition but you're loathe to do anything about it besides talk money.

And then you wonder why we're laughing at you?

Sheesh..."We"??? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I don't see anyone here but you who doesn't think that no-strings-attached revenue sharing is a disincentive to fielding a competitive team. So far I haven't seen any better ideas from you.

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 05:05 PM
All evidence to the contrary?
:o:

The Marlins have a $15 million payroll. If Loria will willingly pocket an easy $15 million in MLB welfare money, what makes you think he'll work to earn $15 million by fielding a winner? The man doesn't embarrass that easily... even with fans like SSH and Gene ready to hang him from a tree.

And just for the record, Loria IS NOT the first owner to put his MLB welfare check in his pocket. KC and Cincinnati have done the same trick multiple times. So don't worry about Loria setting the bad example. It's utter foolishness to think another competition-enhancing scheme based on spending money wouldn't have these same owners working the angles to enhance their own bottom line -- competition be damned.

Again (for the millionth time) stop worrying about money and start focusing on competition.I never wanted to hang him from a tree.
My point all along has been this:(and I'll put it in caps so you can understand):

MLB WILL NOT "PUNISH" LORIA FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT OTHER OWNERS HAVE DONE.
THE SAME WAY POLHAD WASNT PUNISHED, OR SELIG, REINSDORF, OR THE TRIBUNE COMPANY.

The only thing MLB wont let Loria do is rebuy Montreal/Washington.
I wouldnt be suprised that MLB buys the Marlins and relocates them in a manner similar to Montral/Washington, and allows Loria to buy out Angelos,who, from what I read, demands the Orioles be sold before anyone can buy the Nationals(and for a whole lotta money too!).

Now where in that does it mention i want to string up Loria?

Gene

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 05:08 PM
Gene, your questions are stupid. Do I need to spell it out any clearer for you?
Your replies to my questions are what's stupid.
You think my asking who pays the construction bonds when the hotel tax cant cover it equates to putting a gun to jerry's head because he pissed me off.
I'll ask you a question...again.....
Did YOU boycott the Sox in 1997-1999, after the White Flag trade?

Gene

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 05:16 PM
I'll ask you a question...again.....
Did YOU boycott the Sox in 1997-1999, after the White Flag trade?

I started this website in 1998. So Dr. Freud, care to offer your expert opinion?

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 05:26 PM
I started this website in 1998. So Dr. Freud, care to offer your expert opinion?so you just bitched and moaned...exactly what you're calling out people here about the marlins....

Gene

Daver
04-11-2006, 05:47 PM
MLB WILL NOT "PUNISH" LORIA FOR DOING EXACTLY WHAT OTHER OWNERS HAVE DONE.
THE SAME WAY POLHAD WASNT PUNISHED, OR SELIG, REINSDORF, OR THE TRIBUNE COMPANY.

The only thing MLB wont let Loria do is rebuy Montreal/Washington.
Pohlad, Selig, Reinsdorf, and the Tribune never extorted money from MLB, that has not been repaid, the way Jeffrey Loria did either.

MLB can't let Loria repurchase the Expos/Nationals, they have assumed his name on all the pending lawsuits.

Gene, please enjoy continuing to defend a snake and a crook that makes David Glass and the ghost of Charles Finley look like honest men.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 06:08 PM
so you just bitched and moaned...exactly what you're calling out people here about the marlins....

Gosh Gene, I can't ever recall sending Jerry Reinsdorf one thin dime from the fortune I've made here at White Sox Interactive.

You are priceless...

:roflmao: <--- at Gene

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 06:21 PM
Gosh Gene, I can't ever recall sending Jerry Reinsdorf one thin dime from the fortune I've made here at White Sox Interactive.

You are priceless...

:roflmao: <--- at Genebut you did go to games, bought sox merch, watched games on tv, listen to games on the radio, right?

laugh all you want, but you're just a hypocrite if you're advocating people that live 1500 miles away to boycott a team that has a questionable management style, while you didnt do the same to the team in your own backyard.
I paid for one game from aug 1997-sept.1999. And that was opening day 1999. I went to one other game in 1999, but that was on fleer corp.'s money.

my point never has been to put a gun to jerry's head. Nor was i ever pissed off like you claim i am. I simply pointed out that loria is a crook just like Jerry and Bud.
If you ask me, Bud and Jerry did far worse than Loria. Considering that the 1994 world series was never played. A world series that many sox fans felt was thiers.
And I can say this because I can give two craps about Loria or his Marlins.

Gene

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 06:22 PM
Pohlad, Selig, Reinsdorf, and the Tribune never extorted money from MLB, that has not been repaid, the way Jeffrey Loria did either.

MLB can't let Loria repurchase the Expos/Nationals, they have assumed his name on all the pending lawsuits.

Gene, please enjoy continuing to defend a snake and a crook that makes David Glass and the ghost of Charles Finley look like honest men.I'm not defending him moreso that pointing out that he's part of the mlb family, and barring marge schott behavior, wont get removed.

Gene

SoxEd
04-11-2006, 06:29 PM
My thoughts on this whole brouhaha:

1) The current Revenue Sharing model is obviously a bust - and one that allows Robber Barons like Loria to fleece the fans and undermine the integrity of the Sport.
Clearly, owners should be forced to either spend the RS money on fielding a competitive team, or forfeit it;

2) A Salary Floor might seem like an attractive way of doing this, because in Theory, if an owner is going to be forced to spend $Xm, then he's going to want to get the best possible value for $Xm;

3) In the Real World, a Salary Floor would ONLY have the same result as the Roman Emperor Diocletian's Maximum Price Edict:
Which is to say that it would drive UP the costs of hiring Ballplayers.*
This is because each team would have to find ways to spend AT LEAST to the Salary Floor.
There are only so many truly Major-League quality players out there, and Roster sizes are limited, so the price of hiring makeweights WILL go up as unscrupulous owners (e.g. Loria) will hire makeweights to inflated contracts just to top-out their Salary Bill to the Salary Floor.
Genuinely-Major-League-Calibre Players will demand Salary Differentials that reflect their superiority over the AAA/AAAA makeweights.
i.e. A-Rod & Jeter & Burnett will get EVEN fatter contracts.

Thus, a Salary Floor ONLY drives-up the total roster price for franchises that are actually trying to compete - and therefore Ticket prices across the board for us punters - but does NOT necessarily result in a more-competitive League.

A Salary Floor will NOT force unscrupulous owners like Loria to field competitive teams - ONLY teams that cost '$Xm'.

4) Maybe if you have a Salary Floor AND a Salary Cap you might get a situation where the best talent is spread across the whole League, and competitive teams as a result, BUT - you will NEVER get the MLBPA to agree to this, as it would drive DOWN the top salaries available to their members.

5) A system of Relegation and Promotion WOULD force the owners to field competitive teams, but there is NO WAY you'll ever get the Owners to vote for it, as it would mean some of them voting to make their own franchises less profitable.

6) How do we then fix the current farcical situatiuon?
How the Vorsprung durch Technik do I know?
I'm just a dumb limey who likes his Sox... :wink:

If I had the answer to this question I could make myself a BOATLOAD of money (and I'm thinking here of a 'boat' the size of the USS Ronald Reagan at the very least), and also win the eternal gratitude of my fellow baseball fans everywhere.

Discuss...

* Before anyone asks, no, Diocletian's MPE did NOT force up the cost of hiring Baseball Players in Ancient Rome... :wink:
It DID set a maximum permissible price for pretty much every commodity known to Johnny Roman. It was Diocletian's (or his Civil Sevice's) 'solution' to the problem of Inflation, which was running rampant through the Empire, and in the Imperial ity itself in particular.
Result? Overnight, EVERY Trader upped his prices to the maximum. In a very Inflationary way. D'Oh!

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 06:30 PM
but you did go to games, bought sox merch, watched games on tv, listen to games on the radio, right?

laugh all you want, but you're just a hypocrite if you're advocating people that live 1500 miles away to boycott a team that has a questionable management style, while you didnt do the same to the team in your own backyard.
I paid for one game from aug 1997-sept.1999. And that was opening day 1999. I went to one other game in 1999, but that was on fleer corp.'s money.

my point never has been to put a gun to jerry's head. Nor was i ever pissed off like you claim i am. I simply pointed out that loria is a crook just like Jerry and Bud.
If you ask me, Bud and Jerry did far worse than Loria. Considering that the 1994 world series was never played. A world series that many sox fans felt was thiers.
And I can say this because I can give two craps about Loria or his Marlins.

Gene

Hmm hmm... yes, very interesting... hmm... right... okay...

What this has to do with any point I've made in the thread is a secret best kept between you and that voice inside your head. I REALLY don't want to know... I've heard quite enough to be a bit afraid of what might pop out next.

:cool:

Daver
04-11-2006, 06:49 PM
Some valid points.

The MLBPA will never allow a salary cap because they have seen the writing on the wall in the NFL, a salary cap is nothing more than a guarantee of the owners profit at the cost of the players salary structure, that is really the only point a salary cap serves.

ewokpelts
04-11-2006, 06:51 PM
Hmm hmm... yes, very interesting... hmm... right... okay...

What this has to do with any point I've made in the thread is a secret best kept between you and that voice inside your head. I REALLY don't want to know... I've heard quite enough to be a bit afraid of what might pop out next.

:cool:George, You've been talking out of your ass for hours here.
I , once AGAIN, have stated that Loria WILL NOT GET PUNISHED BY MLB. Whether he deserves so or not, he's part of the mlb good ol boys club.

I'll ask this , AGAIN, what good does a boycott do if the team is 1500 miles away? Ok, I'll accept the "Dont see the marlins when they come to chicago" bit as your arguement has merit there (Why go to see a AAA team, even if they're playing against your local mlb team?)

And as ol no.2 has pointed out, when you buy ANY mlb product, see ANY mlb game, watch ANY mlb broadcast, listen to ANY mlb game, or ANY time you click on an ad at mlb.com, you are giving loria money. Even if you dont want to.

Try not bitching and moaning for a second and think that over.
Gene

Daver
04-11-2006, 06:59 PM
George, You've been talking out of your ass for hours here.
I , once AGAIN, have stated that Loria WILL NOT GET PUNISHED BY MLB. Whether he deserves so or not, he's part of the mlb good ol boys club.



You wanna bet the farm on that?

Loria is hated by almost every owner, and by Bud, but they are not in a position to force him out until the Nationals have new ownership, and he will get forced out. Do your homework, all MLB revenue sharing is paid at the decree of Bud Selig, at his sole discretion as to the amount each team recieves. Once MLB unloads the mess Loria created with the Expos, and it's bastard child the Nationals, he will be target number one for diminished revenue, as decreed by the commisioner.

SouthSide_HitMen
04-11-2006, 07:23 PM
You wanna bet the farm on that?

Loria is hated by almost every owner, and by Bud, but they are not in a position to force him out until the Nationals have new ownership, and he will get forced out. Do your homework, all MLB revenue sharing is paid at the decree of Bud Selig, at his sole discretion as to the amount each team recieves. Once MLB unloads the mess Loria created with the Expos, and it's bastard child the Nationals, he will be target number one for diminished revenue, as decreed by the commisioner.

That is all I am looking for and I hope you are right (no lynching PHG - I'm saving that option for Wirtz :rolleyes: ). He has no business owning a MLB franchise or going from city to city asking for handouts confiscated from taxpayers. He is an embarrassment to the game I love as well as two nations.

PaleHoseGeorge
04-11-2006, 07:26 PM
George, You've been talking out of your ass for hours here.

You would know, Gene. You're the voice of reason at WSI. Everyone knows it.

<Steps away from the thread very slowly>

gobears1987
04-11-2006, 08:36 PM
After watching "Major League" again, it would be interesting to see what would've happened had the plan to move them to Orlando worked. While that was fiction, it is scary how close the Sox came to this disaster.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2006, 09:49 PM
For what it may be worth to this discussion this is Phil Rogers take on the revenue sharing system, salary floor / cap and compititon. From his WSI Interview:

ML: Letís talk about the recent labor agreement. I know you spent a lot of time covering that. How close were the two sides to actually having another work stoppage?

PR: "With just hours to go until the deadline, neither side knew how it was going to come out. Both sides knew how far they were willing to go, but they didnít know how far the other side would reach. It was a legitimate concern that they would have to call off games."

ML: Revenue sharing and competitive balance were the central issues in this discussion but the agreement makes no provisions that teams have to spend revenue sharing money on players. What safeguards are there that owners will try to get better?

PR: "There isnít a minimum payroll requirement because the union objected to having one, the owners tried to get one put in. That being said, it has recently come out that clubs who get revenue sharing money must file a report every year to the commissionerís office detailing where and how that money was spent. The commissioner then has the power, if he doesnít like where the money is going, to levy substantial fines on teams. The money has to be spent on things like player salaries, adding minor league teams or stadium improvement."

ML: Then how does that square with published accounts quoting Jerry Reinsdorf as saying in the owners ratification meeting, that teams should use that money towards reducing operating debt rather then going to player acquisitions or salaries?

PR: "Iíve seen that story. All I can tell you is that I was at that meeting and all reporters were outside the conference room. I know that when Iíve tried to get comments from owners afterwards in these kind of situations, they were always tight lipped. I canít vouch for the veracity of that story. Assuming that comment was made, I donít think reducing team debt would fall under the guidelines of where revenue sharing money has to go, therefore the commissioner would get involved to stop it."

My own personal opinion is that the revenue sharing system has helped ease the imbalance the past few years but in general there are far to many owners like Loria, the Selig family, Glass, Linder, the Expos and McClatchey who have abused their money. They have not spent it on the players, they have not spent it on improving the farm system and the 'commissioner' did NOTHING despite the fact that he has (according to Rogers) the authority to do so. (Typical Bud)

The sytem needs to be corrected but what that would be I don't know.

Maybe getting an actual 'commissioner' would do the trick.

Lip

voodoochile
04-12-2006, 12:43 AM
Maybe getting an actual 'commissioner' would do the trick.

Never going to happen ever again unless it becomes a condition of keeping their monopoly powers granted by Congress.

Until the owners get serioous about revenue sharing all of this is a moot discussion, IMO. So long as the Yankees can afford a $300M+ payroll (including luxurly taxes) while the best the second place team can manage is $200M and no one else is even close to $150 the system is inherently flawed.

Ol' No. 2
04-12-2006, 09:06 AM
You wanna bet the farm on that?

Loria is hated by almost every owner, and by Bud, but they are not in a position to force him out until the Nationals have new ownership, and he will get forced out. Do your homework, all MLB revenue sharing is paid at the decree of Bud Selig, at his sole discretion as to the amount each team recieves. Once MLB unloads the mess Loria created with the Expos, and it's bastard child the Nationals, he will be target number one for diminished revenue, as decreed by the commisioner.I will be pleasantly shocked if that happens. Everybody knows what's really going on here. Loria is pulling a Rachel Phelps. He's using this to try to extort a stadium deal, either from the Florida legislature or from anyone else who will give him one. These stadium deals are little more than subsidies (read bribes) for major league teams. While the other owners may not like Loria, they all hope he's successful in getting his deal, because it increases the liklihood that they can get similar deals in the future. This is why I don't believe the league will step in. He may be a travesty, but he's a useful travesty for the other owners.

I hope to hell you're right and I'm wrong.

SoLongFrank
04-13-2006, 12:22 PM
What some of you might not know. It wasn't about Loria. It was about Henry. The whole sale of the Marilin's to Loria was orchestrated so that Henry could become a major holder in the BoSox. He's a powerful man in MLB.
As the sale was pending & MLB adopted the Expos Henry was part-owner of 3 teams: NY Yankees, Marlins, & Bo Sox. If you think of any other franchise business this is complete & utter hypocrisy & if not for the anti-trust exemption MLB would have been sued under.

The union will never accept a salary floor because that would require a salary cap. But they might be willing to accept a cap that adjusts media revenue sharing to the size of a team's player payroll + stadium improvements.

Flight #24
04-15-2006, 08:39 PM
FWIW, Gammons has an article up on ESPN that appears to focus on a couple of things:

1) Loria's generally put a contender on the field in Florida until this year
2) Without a stadium, he cut salary, but did so in a way that is accelerating the rebuilding of a contender, with significant young talent received
3) He's not trading Willis/Cabrera (contrary to reports)

Believe him or not, but if you accept the premises #2 & 3, then he's merely being smart to rebuild in a quick manner by trading for a lot of young talent and holding on to a couple of young stars. There's risk that the guys don't develop, but if even 50% of the top prospects they got back pan out, they'll be pretty good pretty fast.