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Daver
01-17-2002, 04:27 PM
Sox sign Lee, Singleton to new deals
Carlos Lee has averaged 24 home runs and 88 RBIs the past two seasons. The White Sox avoided arbitration with Carlos Lee and Chris Singleton, signing the outfielders to new contracts Thursday. The 25-year-old Lee, who batted .269 with 24 home runs, 84 RBIs and 17 stolen bases in 2001, signed a two-year contract. Singleton, 29, who hit .298 with seven home runs, 45 RBIs and 12 steals, signed a one-year deal. A full story is coming


From whitesox.com.

cheeses_h_rice
01-17-2002, 04:54 PM
Details?

Fisk Fan
01-17-2002, 05:02 PM
I guess we'll never find out what an arbitrator thinks Chris Singleton is worth in dollars. I was interested in finding out what a sub .250 lifetime, under-achieving centerfielder was worth in 2002.

BTW, did he really steal 12 bases? I don't remember a single one.

Huisj
01-17-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
I was interested in finding out what a sub .250 lifetime, under-achieving centerfielder was worth in 2002.



Umm, is .283 considered sub .250? if so, i better go back and learn how to count again.

Daver
01-17-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Huisj


Umm, is .283 considered sub .250? if so, i better go back and learn how to count again.

Something tells me that CLR has poisoned your brain with his teachings.

:)

cornball
01-17-2002, 06:32 PM
Okay ...now can we trade them?

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Okay ...now can we trade them?

Maybe Singleton. Not Lee.

Daver
01-17-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Okay ...now can we trade them?

Move both of them as far as I'm concerned.

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by daver
Move both of them as far as I'm concerned.

I was waiting for that.

Daver
01-17-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I was waiting for that.

Did you expect any less?

RichH55
01-17-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by daver


Move both of them as far as I'm concerned.

Singleton is definately looking like the oddman out....but moving Lee now is folly unless someone out there highly overvalues him...he is near the low end of his potential value and is generally a good half player, so if you are going to move him and the odds of him having a good first half are decent..let him put up some numbers and the player you can get for him morphs from a 3-4 starter to a legitimate threat to be a number 2 starter, plus with Lee still here you don't have to rely on both Rowand and Borchard being ready to go, so you don't have to rush guys or play a guy who shouldn't be playing

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by daver
Did you expect any less?

I thought you would have realized that Carlos Lee is not the reason why the Sox aren't winning the series anytime soon.

Daver
01-17-2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I thought you would have realized that Carlos Lee is not the reason why the Sox aren't winning the series anytime soon.

I realize that Carlos is a DH running around in LF.
I think Senor Sock said it best when he wished for a glove big enough to cover all of left feild for Carlos.
I also realize that Carlos may be better suited wearing the glove he has now on his head.

RichH55
01-17-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by daver


I realize that Carlos is a DH running around in LF.
I think Senor Sock said it best when he wished for a glove big enough to cover all of left feild for Carlos.
I also realize that Carlos may be better suited wearing the glove he has now on his head.

Daver granted Carlos isnt the best LF ....but how many games do you think is the difference between the best defensive LF and Carlos? Now if Carlos doesn't turn his hitting around from what he did in the 2nd half this question is academic, but when Carlos hits like he can, doesn't that more than offset his defensive shortcomings and make him a plus player overall?

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by daver
I realize that Carlos is a DH running around in LF.
I think Senor Sock said it best when he wished for a glove big enough to cover all of left feild for Carlos.
I also realize that Carlos may be better suited wearing the glove he has now on his head.

You want him gone because of his defense. My point is that it doesn't matter. If the Sox were on the verge of winning the Series and Carlos was costing the team games, then fine move him. Since there not, he's not "hurting" the team.

That's just my view of the situation, I know you disagree.

Daver
01-17-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


Daver granted Carlos isnt the best LF ....but how many games do you think is the difference between the best defensive LF and Carlos? Now if Carlos doesn't turn his hitting around from what he did in the 2nd half this question is academic, but when Carlos hits like he can, doesn't that more than offset his defensive shortcomings and make him a plus player overall?

If you are bound and determined to feild a weak infeild,and the Sox will,then you have to back it up with a strong defensive outfeild,you can't be weak defensively all over the feild and win.

But then again what the hell do I know?

nut_stock
01-17-2002, 07:51 PM
Anyone have a theory explaining how Lee put on one of the best 1st halfs (in recent sox history), and then follows it up will an equally bad 2nd half?

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by nut_stock
Anyone have a theory explaining how Lee put on one of the best 1st halfs (in recent sox history), and then follows it up will an equally bad 2nd half?

Loss of Thomas, being moved around like a yo-yo in the order.

RichH55
01-17-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by daver


If you are bound and determined to feild a weak infeild,and the Sox will,then you have to back it up with a strong defensive outfeild,you can't be weak defensively all over the feild and win.

But then again what the hell do I know?

I understand you need D, but aren't LF and 1B places where the difference between great D and marginal D can be more, much more) than offset by good hitting from that spot?

I reiterate :
how many games do you think is the difference between the best defensive LF and Carlos? Now if Carlos doesn't turn his hitting around from what he did in the 2nd half this question is academic, but when Carlos hits like he can, doesn't that more than offset his defensive shortcomings and make him a plus player overall?

Daver
01-17-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by RichH55


I understand you need D, but aren't LF and 1B places where the difference between great D and marginal D can be more, much more) than offset by good hitting from that spot?

I reiterate :
how many games do you think is the difference between the best defensive LF and Carlos? Now if Carlos doesn't turn his hitting around from what he did in the 2nd half this question is academic, but when Carlos hits like he can, doesn't that more than offset his defensive shortcomings and make him a plus player overall?

Not really,he is playing behind I have 0 range Clayton,and Jose playing out of position,so it becomes nescasary to have a decent defensive player playing in left,and Carlos has neither the feilding nor the arm to get the job done.

cornball
01-17-2002, 08:41 PM
Jerry i am with Daver, he is a streak hitter ...when he is on he is great and the same going the other way too...his glove is brutal..and i dont think we are saying to move him for moving sake ...i think we are saying if....and only if we can upgrade another area like starting pitching, catcher, middle infield then trade him...all this being said counting on Brouchard next year

CLR01
01-17-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by daver


Something tells me that CLR has poisoned your brain with his teachings.

:)

I have not poisoned anyones mind. I dont have to preach to anyone about 283 coming after 250. Also i think they avoided arbitration because they didnt want to pay him the 25 million a year he would have recieved. Smart move by the sox. :smile:


"...327..328...329...263...330...331..."

:hitless

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 08:45 PM
Daver, I'm sure you can live with Lee for another year. And I know your not crazy enough to tell me the Sox have a shot at the series this year. Your whole idea for ditching Lee is because of Royce at short and Jose at 3rd. In 2003 it will be Crede at 3rd and Jose back at short. What would be your reason for wanting him gone then?

Daver
01-17-2002, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
What would be your reason for wanting him gone then?

Because he will still be wearing his glove on his head comes to mind.

Daver
01-17-2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by CLR01


I have not poisoned anyones mind. I dont have to preach to anyone about 283 coming after 250. Also i think they avoided arbitration because they didnt want to pay him the 25 million a year he would have recieved. Smart move by the sox.


LMAO!!!!!!!

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by daver
Because he will still be wearing his glove on his head comes to mind.

OK, this is going nowhere. I see your side of the story but mine is falling on deaf ears.

Daver
01-17-2002, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


OK, this is going nowhere. I see your side of the story but mine is falling on deaf ears.

I just think that an outfeilder should be able to feild his position,Carlos Lee is a better than average hitter that would be well suited as a 1st baseman or a DH,but there are no openings for him on this team at this time,so I would not object to seeing him dealt.That being said he has small trade value because of the points I just brought up,so I will have to assume that the Sox will be stuck with him for awhile.I will shut up now before FWC bans me for heresy.

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by daver
I just think that an outfeilder should be able to feild his position,Carlos Lee is a better than average hitter that would be well suited as a 1st baseman or a DH,but there are no openings for him on this team at this time,so I would not object to seeing him dealt.That being said he has small trade value because of the points I just brought up,so I will have to assume that the Sox will be stuck with him for awhile.I will shut up now before FWC bans me for heresy.

Daver I agree that Carlos is brutal in the field. But the Sox are not a trade of Carlos Lee away from being a contender. I know you never said that, but the Sox need a lot of help before they can be called contenders. Which is why I have said, it doesn't matter that Lee is in left field.

Just my opinion

fuzzy_patters
01-17-2002, 09:04 PM
I really don't see the difference between Carlos Lee now and Manny Ramirez after 3 years. Both are inconsistent hitters with blossoming power and suspect defense. To say that Carlos Lee has no trade value is laughable, and to want to trade him just because of his defense is also. Left field and first base are where teams put guys who can't field. What did you expect out of left field?

Daver
01-17-2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
To say that Carlos Lee has no trade value is laughable

They have been shopping him since the October with no takers,in a market that has teams more willing to trade than sign a FA,so his value may not be "laughable".I think it is more that Sox fans think he is worth more than the league does.

fuzzy_patters
01-17-2002, 09:26 PM
Media reports claim that he is being shopped around. Do we know what the Sox are asking for him? They could be asking for a Clemens type starter. Until we know what is being asked for him, he don't really know why he isn't being traded. Furthermore, it's not exactly like ESPN and the Chicago media have a great track record. It could be pure speculation that he was ever being shopped at all. As far as I know, the only thing KW ever really said was that everybody has a price.

As far as you not thinking he has trade value, I have to wonder how long you have been watching baseball. We have a left fielder who has proven that he can hit .300 over a full season. He has also proven that he has streaks of power. Young players with power streaks tend to be able to extend them as they get older. You can't tell me that other teams wouldn't love to have a potential .300-35-100 guy in left field regardless of defense. Furthermore, AL teams could use him at DH which further drives up trade value among them. I really don't see any logic as to why he wouldn't have trade value other than that you don't like him.

kermittheefrog
01-17-2002, 09:50 PM
I'm not the biggest Lee fan but he's a solid player who still has some offensive upside, trading him right now would be trading him when his value is lowest after a bad second half of 2001. Unless he mysteriously turns into a pumpkin his value can only go up which means he'll either be more productive for us or demand more in a trade. Keep Carlos if only until we have someone else to take his spot.

Daver
01-17-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Media reports claim that he is being shopped around. Do we know what the Sox are asking for him? They could be asking for a Clemens type starter. Until we know what is being asked for him, he don't really know why he isn't being traded. Furthermore, it's not exactly like ESPN and the Chicago media have a great track record. It could be pure speculation that he was ever being shopped at all. As far as I know, the only thing KW ever really said was that everybody has a price.

As far as you not thinking he has trade value, I have to wonder how long you have been watching baseball. We have a left fielder who has proven that he can hit .300 over a full season. He has also proven that he has streaks of power. Young players with power streaks tend to be able to extend them as they get older. You can't tell me that other teams wouldn't love to have a potential .300-35-100 guy in left field regardless of defense. Furthermore, AL teams could use him at DH which further drives up trade value among them. I really don't see any logic as to why he wouldn't have trade value other than that you don't like him.

OK so you have joined the Bmr club that I know nothing about baseball,which is fine by me,but I have stated in the past(and no I am not going to look up the threads,do it yourself)that Carlos Lee's trade value was limited to AL teams,because he is an awful LF.I have stated in this thread that he is a better than average hitter,I have the opinion that you can be better served with a decent hitter that can play defense,like Aaron Rowand,in LF rather than a DH playing out of position.

kermittheefrog
01-17-2002, 10:25 PM
How many good defensive left fielders are there anyway? Generally guys who can throw end up in right and guys who can run end up in center. Leftfield is pretty much for the guys who didn't make the cut in center or right. I think Joe Borchard is the best example of this. Borchard as a top outfield prospect is being tried in center first, if he can't make it there they expect him to be a rightfielder. I don't think Lee's glove in left is a big deal because generally the better outfielders play center and right anyway. He's not hurting us that much.

Jerry_Manuel
01-17-2002, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I don't think Lee's glove in left is a big deal because generally the better outfielders play center and right anyway. He's not hurting us that much.

I find myself agreeing with Kermit almost all the time now, which is scary in and of itself. And to top it all off Kermit is starting to question the moves Dan Evans is making in LA. Very strange things happening as of late. :smile:

Iguana775
01-17-2002, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Okay ...now can we trade them?

LMAO. that was a good one. :gulp:

czalgosz
01-18-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
How many good defensive left fielders are there anyway? Generally guys who can throw end up in right and guys who can run end up in center. Leftfield is pretty much for the guys who didn't make the cut in center or right. I think Joe Borchard is the best example of this. Borchard as a top outfield prospect is being tried in center first, if he can't make it there they expect him to be a rightfielder. I don't think Lee's glove in left is a big deal because generally the better outfielders play center and right anyway. He's not hurting us that much.

I tend to agree... if I'm Williams, I passively shop Lee. That is, if anyone comes up with something I can't refuse, I take it. Short of that, I put him back out in left. He'll recover. We found out that he's not ready to bat in the upper half of the lineup.

Actually, his numbers for 2001 (.321 OBP, .468 SLG) almost exactly mirror his career stats (.327 OBP, .472 SLG). The thing was, when he exploded in the first half, we thought we were seeing the Carlos Lee that everyone expected to see (.887 OPS before the break). With Thomas back in the lineup, Lee's numbers will improve with the pressure off of him.

Jerry's right - Lee's not the kind of player you dump for whatever you can get for him. If the Sox are 15 games back at the trading deadline, that's when you trade him.

RichH55
01-18-2002, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
How many good defensive left fielders are there anyway? Generally guys who can throw end up in right and guys who can run end up in center. Leftfield is pretty much for the guys who didn't make the cut in center or right. I think Joe Borchard is the best example of this. Borchard as a top outfield prospect is being tried in center first, if he can't make it there they expect him to be a rightfielder. I don't think Lee's glove in left is a big deal because generally the better outfielders play center and right anyway. He's not hurting us that much.

I'm in total agreement here..Carlos is only going to get more value over time and I'm assuming that 2 year deal gives us time to try and get that value up whether as our LF or as trade bait...How old is Carlos these days? 25?

JoeBatters
01-18-2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Fisk Fan
I guess we'll never find out what an arbitrator thinks Chris Singleton is worth in dollars. I was interested in finding out what a sub .250 lifetime, under-achieving centerfielder was worth in 2002.

BTW, did he really steal 12 bases? I don't remember a single one.

I couldn't have said any better ! :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:
6 - pack is on me ..............