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View Full Version : Payroll Priority #1: Lock up Mark Buehrle


Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 09:40 AM
Today's Chicago Tribune reports that the advance season ticket sales have given the Sox even more payroll flexibility. The story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060321sox,1,1220124.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) goes on to report:

Williams likes that the Sox have eight core players under control, not including club options on ace Mark Buehrle, right fielder Jermaine Dye and second baseman Tadahito Iguchi.

Dye and Iguchi certainly would be priorities based on how they perform this year (and how after this season the Sox view Ryan Sweeney and Chris Getz as potential long-term solutions).

But Buehrle clearly would be the biggest priority. It's a no-brainer that they would pick up his option, but I think the Sox ought to lock him up long-term - probably to a five-year deal - NOW, before his value skyrockets even more.

Kenny Williams needs to make sure Mark Buehrle pitches his entire career in a White Sox uniform. Assuming he stays healthy and keeps up his current level of excellence, I think he's got a legitimate shot at 300 wins and therefore first-ballot HOF potential.

Morever, Buehle has proven himself to be the ace of the best rotation in baseball. Keeping a strong rotation together (McCarthy replacing Contreras at some point) ensures the Sox have the best chance of making a sustained run of post-season appearances and potentially multiple World Series championships. Locking up the ace - Buehrle - is of utmost importance.

Get it done, Kenny!

:supernana:

Anyone care to disagree that KW needs to lock up Buehrle with this infusion of cash?

The Wall
03-22-2006, 09:45 AM
What is the contract you are going to offer him? If you want him for 5 years...it wont be for less than Paulie kind of money considering Garland got 10-mil-per. Buehrle certainly has better track record than Garland and will attract a lot more attention if he becomes FA and there is that St.Louis angle to this. You think Walt Jocketty will not find a way to bring Buehrle home if he ever gets the chance, no matter what the price would be ?

Trav
03-22-2006, 09:48 AM
I agree. He is also a fan favorite which helps to put preassure on KW to lock him up.

I hope that he isn't the second HOF hopefull to go to the ST. Louis franchise.

Mickster
03-22-2006, 09:49 AM
I think the MB might very well break the bank. I doubt the Sox would give him, or any pitcher, a 5 year deal. I could see them giving him a deal similar to Halladay who the Jays just signed to a 3 year extension at $40M.

Randar68
03-22-2006, 09:51 AM
Anyone care to disagree that KW needs to lock up Buehrle with this infusion of cash?

KW needs to do what it takes to win a championship this year with this year's flexibility.

Hell, if Jose Contreras is his second-half self in the first half, I'd rather sign him to the extension. Buehrle will never be a true #1, Contreras is if last season wasn't an abberration.

doublem23
03-22-2006, 09:55 AM
KW needs to do what it takes to win a championship this year with this year's flexibility.

Hell, if Jose Contreras is his second-half self in the first half, I'd rather sign him to the extension. Buehrle will never be a true #1, Contreras is if last season wasn't an abberration.
Contreras is what? Maybe 8 years older than Mark? I think "officially" he's 7, but who really knows?

Mark Buehrle is destined to wear silver and black the rest of his uniform. I'd take him over all but a handful of SPs in baseball today.

batmanZoSo
03-22-2006, 10:06 AM
Contreras is what? Maybe 8 years older than Mark? I think "officially" he's 7, but who really knows?

Mark Buehrle is destined to wear silver and black the rest of his uniform. I'd take him over all but a handful of SPs in baseball today.

I'd agree, and a pretty small handful at that given his health, high innings pitched, low pitch count, great fielding. He's just a monument of efficiency for starting pitchers.

ondafarm
03-22-2006, 10:24 AM
If you can lock him up during ST great. Otherwise, let's get into the season and work something out at both KW and MB's leisure. Not to doubt his numbers or future but let him be in baseball mode right now.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 10:29 AM
Contreras is what? Maybe 8 years older than Mark? I think "officially" he's 7, but who really knows?

Mark Buehrle is destined to wear silver and black the rest of his career. I'd take him over all but a handful of SPs in baseball today.

I agree. Buehrle's "stuff" may not be as spectacular as Contreras' stuff when he is at his best, but Buehrle is consistent and knows how to get the win. Right now he has as much smarts and guile as Nolan Ryan did when he was 43 (I am not comparing their arms).

For example, look at the 99 minute game he pitched against Seattle (4-16-05). He knew he couldn't get Ichiro out. So he just let Ichiro get soft singles and got everyone else out and won the damn game in 99 minutes with minimal effort. He didn't care about giving up the lone run in the top of the ninth because it was more important to him to get the win. If he can't get a guy out, he'll give up a single and then get the next guy to ground into a double play to end the inning. The man is a pitching genius and one hell of a team ballplayer.

Buehrle only turns 27 tomorrow, incidentally. Give him the birthday present of a long-term contract offer, Kenny!
:happybday

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 10:30 AM
If you can lock him up during ST great. Otherwise, let's get into the season and work something out at both KW and MB's leisure. Not to doubt his numbers or future but let him be in baseball mode right now.

I agree. Let's make it another Wednesday KW special, or a nice birthday present for Mark tomorrow!

Hawkeroo1980
03-22-2006, 10:32 AM
let guys like dye walk.......

Isn't buerhle's contract got him locked up for two more years?

also....lock up Crede---mid-season extention would have me doing cartwheels. He is bulking up like Thome did plus his clutch performance in the playoffs proves he is a gamer. Not to mention his defense

Tekijawa
03-22-2006, 10:35 AM
let guys like dye walk.......

Isn't buerhle's contract got him locked up for two more years?

also....lock up Crede---mid-season extention would have me doing cartwheels. He is bulking up like Thome did plus his clutch performance in the playoffs proves he is a gamer. Not to mention his defense

I think you're right, I think the Club option is in '08 and not next year.

TheOldRoman
03-22-2006, 10:54 AM
I want Mark Buehrle to finish his career with the Sox as much as anyone else, but this extension talk is a little premature. He is under contract through 2007. Any extention the Sox give him will raise his 2006 salary by several million, and for no reason, seeing as Buehrle can't leave for two more years. Wait until next preseason, and then get the extension done.

mcfish
03-22-2006, 10:58 AM
let guys like dye walk.......Why do you want to just let the World Series MVP walk? I'm hoping he has a tremendous year and the Sox consider resigning him. Who do you want to replace him? Ryan Sweeney? One question mark in the outfield is enough for me right now.

Mickster
03-22-2006, 11:06 AM
Why do you want to just let the World Series MVP walk? I'm hoping he has a tremendous year and the Sox consider resigning him. Who do you want to replace him? Ryan Sweeney? One question mark in the outfield is enough for me right now.

I believe that Dye has a very reasonable team option for '07 in his contract.

Iwritecode
03-22-2006, 11:07 AM
KW needs to do what it takes to win a championship this year with this year's flexibility.

Hell, if Jose Contreras is his second-half self in the first half, I'd rather sign him to the extension. Buehrle will never be a true #1, Contreras is if last season wasn't an abberration.

Why is Contreras more of a "true #1" over Buehrle? A guy that you can pencil in for 6+ innings and 3-4 runs per game with 200+ innings over the course of the season can be my #1 starter any day of the week. He strikes out fewer guys but he also walks fewer guys.

Not taking anything away from Contreras because he was amazing the second half of last season but I'm just saying Mark is just as good IMO. Either one could be the #1 starter on this team. Alot of other teams as well...

Rooney4Prez56
03-22-2006, 11:12 AM
Buehrle's my favorite player and I want to see him on the Sox for years to come. Besides, if this team is built on pitching, you've gotta lock up Buehrle. He's the best on the team.

Tekijawa
03-22-2006, 11:17 AM
I was wrong the Option is for 2007 at 9.5 Mil.

Hawkeroo1980
03-22-2006, 11:24 AM
I believe that Dye has a very reasonable team option for '07 in his contract.


i dont dislike DYE....and would love to keep the entire team....but if i HAD to let someone go i'd have to let DYE. We need scotty for sb's, anderson is young and cheap so it doesn't metter, so DYE it is. (merely because a surplus of outfielders who can get 30 homeruns a year and play defence is alot easier that the surplus of Ace's/defensive infielders like Crede. But if DYe has a reasonable option then HELL YES sign him up when the time comes

FedEx227
03-22-2006, 01:04 PM
While I do agree Buehrle will never be a true no.1, you can't deny his presence in a pitching rotation.

I actually had this similar conversation with my dad yesterday, saying Buehrle is the kind of guy you always want in your rotation, 2-3-4-5, no matter what, if he can still deal he'll still be a valuable assett because he doesn't get into trouble, hes consistent, he eats up innings, etc... No I don't think hes worth 1st starter money and I don't think any MLB franchise does, but Buehrle is a true embassador and workhorse for the team and locking him up is imparative, IMHO.

Mickster
03-22-2006, 01:13 PM
While I do agree Buehrle will never be a true no.1, you can't deny his presence in a pitching rotation.

I actually had this similar conversation with my dad yesterday, saying Buehrle is the kind of guy you always want in your rotation, 2-3-4-5, no matter what, if he can still deal he'll still be a valuable assett because he doesn't get into trouble, hes consistent, he eats up innings, etc... No I don't think hes worth 1st starter money and I don't think any MLB franchise does, but Buehrle is a true embassador and workhorse for the team and locking him up is imparative, IMHO.

I'll never understand why some say that MB is not a "true No. 1: starter. For this to be the case, there would have to be 30 pitchers better than him in the majors, and at least 14 better than him in the AL. I just don't think that this is the case.

Randar68
03-22-2006, 01:17 PM
I'll never understand why some say that MB is not a "true No. 1: starter. For this to be the case, there would have to be 30 pitchers better than him in the majors, and at least 14 better than him in the AL. I just don't think that this is the case.

Does he strike out 200 batters? Can he take over games and set guys down all game long? No. He depends on his defense, he counts on guys putting the ball in play A LOT. He's not a true #1. End of story. There are only about 10 real #1 pitchers in baseball at any given time. Mark never has and never will be one.

Contreras of the second half of 2005 WAS one. Can he repeat that performance? If he can, you have to resign him. You have Buehrle for 2 more years. Nobody is going to sign Buehrle or Contreras to a 5-6 year extension so I'm still trying to figure out what anyone's age has bupkus to this.

Mickster
03-22-2006, 01:23 PM
Does he strike out 200 batters? Can he take over games and set guys down all game long? No.

I'll have to disagree with you here, Randar. Just because MB does not rely on the K, in my opinion, doesn't mean that he would not be a staff ace on at least 10-12 other teams.

As for MB being able to take games over and set guys down all day long.....I've seen it happen on several occasions. Strikeouts do not make an ace.

voodoochile
03-22-2006, 01:23 PM
Does he strike out 200 batters? Can he take over games and set guys down all game long? No. He depends on his defense, he counts on guys putting the ball in play A LOT. He's not a true #1. End of story. There are only about 10 real #1 pitchers in baseball at any given time. Mark never has and never will be one.

Contreras of the second half of 2005 WAS one. Can he repeat that performance? If he can, you have to resign him. You have Buehrle for 2 more years. Nobody is going to sign Buehrle or Contreras to a 5-6 year extension so I'm still trying to figure out what anyone's age has bupkus to this.

That's a very strict definition of true #1. I agree with the previous poster that if there aren't 30 guys better than him than by definition he is someone's true #1.

In addition, I'd consider making him the first pitcher I selected to build a team around because he has an arm that should last for a long time. Low stress, lot's of results and he eats innings. He should have a long career and will probably win 20 games a couple of times. In addition, he is a good teammate who will do whatever it takes to win.

I know I'm not in the majority of "in the know" posters on that selection, but I don't care. There is more to pitching than a plus fastball. Buehrle is a pitcher in every sense of the word. Guys like that don't grow on trees.

Randar68
03-22-2006, 01:29 PM
I know I'm not in the majority of "in the know" posters on that selection, but I don't care. There is more to pitching than a plus fastball. Buehrle is a pitcher in every sense of the word. Guys like that don't grow on trees.

They don't grow on trees? We have 5 guys in our own rotation that are about equivalent to Mark Buehrle.

200 IP, win a lot of games, etc...

What makes Buehrle better than any of our other starters at this point? He works fast? Then what?

Randar68
03-22-2006, 01:32 PM
That's a very strict definition of true #1. I agree with the previous poster that if there aren't 30 guys better than him than by definition he is someone's true #1.

That's because after the first 10-15 guys, the next 45 are about equivalent...

Buehrle is not a pitcher who can go out and dominate on any sort of regular basis. A healthy Pedro, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Zambrano, etc are those kinds of pitchers... They are RARE, which is why they end up getting paid so much more than the next group of pitchers that Mark Buehrle resides in.

This is just more over-fascination with our own player.

SBSoxFan
03-22-2006, 01:35 PM
That's because after the first 10-15 guys, the next 45 are about equivalent...

Buehrle is not a pitcher who can go out and dominate on any sort of regular basis. A healthy Pedro, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Zambrano, etc are those kinds of pitchers... They are RARE, which is why they end up getting paid so much more than the next group of pitchers that Mark Buehrle resides in.

This is just more over-fascination with our own player.
I remember a guy last year who 3-hit the Mariners in about 1-1/2 hours with 12 strikeouts. Who was that again?

voodoochile
03-22-2006, 01:36 PM
That's because after the first 10-15 guys, the next 45 are about equivalent...

Buehrle is not a pitcher who can go out and dominate on any sort of regular basis. A healthy Pedro, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Zambrano, etc are those kinds of pitchers... They are RARE, which is why they end up getting paid so much more than the next group of pitchers that Mark Buehrle resides in.

This is just more over-fascination with our own player.

You are saying there are 60 pitcers in baseball who are as good or better than Buehrle? I completely disagree.

If Mark isn't a 1 he's a 1A. You are correct that guys like the ones you mentioned are very rare, but how different is Buehrle from Maddux in terms of stuff?

As to your comment from the previous post, If stuff were all that mattered you would be correct, but Buehrle gets results that guys like Contreras (with the exception of the second half of last year) and Vazquez haven't. Same goes for Garland who is roughly the same age as Buehrle has "better stuff" but has only started to harness it. The only guy I put in the same category as Mark on the Sox is Garcia, the rest still have to prove they can be as consistent and consitent counts as much as anything...

Mickster
03-22-2006, 01:37 PM
They don't grow on trees? We have 5 guys in our own rotation that are about equivalent to Mark Buehrle.

200 IP, win a lot of games, etc...

What makes Buehrle better than any of our other starters at this point? He works fast? Then what?

We're the only team to have the luxury of 5 starters who are equivalent to Buehrle. That makes our staff pretty special. What makes Buehrle stand out is consistency and lack of time on the DL.

With Contreras, you have only seen his true "greatness" for 1/2 a season. With Garland, only 1 season. With Vazquez, ?????? (not great #'s in the NL last year, looked great before the NYY signed him, though). With Garcia.......a pretty close match.

How our starters preform this year remains to be seen. I'm not knocking them and I think we have the best 1-5 in baseball, but will Garland repeat? Which Contreras will we see? You get the point. MB and FG are very consistent barring injuries.

Mickster
03-22-2006, 01:38 PM
Wow, voodoo, scary post similarities. :o:

TaylorStSox
03-22-2006, 01:39 PM
Why is Contreras more of a "true #1" over Buehrle? A guy that you can pencil in for 6+ innings and 3-4 runs per game with 200+ innings over the course of the season can be my #1 starter any day of the week. He strikes out fewer guys but he also walks fewer guys.

Not taking anything away from Contreras because he was amazing the second half of last season but I'm just saying Mark is just as good IMO. Either one could be the #1 starter on this team. Alot of other teams as well...

If it came down to one game, you go with Contreras over anyone else on our staff. He's the guy that can dominate. He can take over a game by himself.

MB's the anchor. He's the consistant pitcher that holds everything together. Contreras is the ace. It's pretty simple.

Mickster
03-22-2006, 01:43 PM
If it came down to one game, you go with Contreras over anyone else on our staff. He's the guy that can dominate. He can take over a game by himself.

MB's the anchor. He's the consistant pitcher that holds everything together. Contreras is the ace. It's pretty simple.

I don't disagree with you in theory, but we have not seen the "ace" Contreras for more than 1/2 season. If he begins 06 the way he ended 05, I'll completely agree. If not....

Jjav829
03-22-2006, 01:56 PM
Does he strike out 200 batters? Can he take over games and set guys down all game long? No. He depends on his defense, he counts on guys putting the ball in play A LOT. He's not a true #1. End of story. There are only about 10 real #1 pitchers in baseball at any given time. Mark never has and never will be one.

So Greg Maddux was never an ace?

Is Kerry Wood an ace in your mind? If healthy, he's a lock to strike out 200 batters and can take over games and set guys damn all game long.

TaylorStSox
03-22-2006, 01:59 PM
So Greg Maddux was never an ace?

Is Kerry Wood an ace in your mind? If healthy, he's a lock to strike out 200 batters and can take over games and set guys damn all game long.

You're downplaying Maddux. He had much better stuff than Buehrle. He K'd more guys and gave up fewer hits. In fact, in Maddux prime, he was flat out nasty. Glavine would be a better comparison. While he might end up a HOF pitcher, he was never an ace IMO.

Jjav829
03-22-2006, 02:00 PM
If it came down to one game, you go with Contreras over anyone else on our staff. He's the guy that can dominate. He can take over a game by himself.

MB's the anchor. He's the consistant pitcher that holds everything together. Contreras is the ace. It's pretty simple.

Maybe to you it's simple, but we're talking about a whole season. After all, a baseball season comes down to 162 games, not who can dominate the best in one game.

And last I checked, in what was arguably our biggest win in the playoffs (Game 2 of the ALCS where we couldn't afford to fall behind 2-0 going back to Anaheim), it was Mark Buehrle who took over and allowed 1 run in 9 innings to perhaps save our playoff run.

Jjav829
03-22-2006, 02:02 PM
You're downplaying Maddux. He had much better stuff than Buehrle. He K'd more guys and gave up fewer hits. In fact, in Maddux prime, he was flat out nasty. Glavine would be a better comparison. While he might end up a HOF pitcher, he was never an ace IMO.

But Maddux was never a 200 K guy. He topped the 200 mark just once in his career with 204 K's in 1998. He had some years where he was right below 200, but he also had plenty of years where he was well under 200.

TaylorStSox
03-22-2006, 02:09 PM
But Maddux was never a 200 K guy. He topped the 200 mark just once in his career with 204 K's in 1998. He had some years where he was right below 200, but he also had plenty of years where he was well under 200.


He's topped 190 several times. He's also a 3000 K guy. I don't think Mark will ever be.

Mark Buerhle is a great pitcher. I agree that we should sign him longterm, even if it means overpaying. However, if it comes down to 1 game, I'm going with Contreras everytime.

Contreras age isn't a concern to me either. He's built like a tank. He's never had arm problems and he's got an easy delivery. There's a precedent for big, hard throwing RH's to pitch well into their 40's.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 02:16 PM
I agree with Voodoo and Jjav. In fact, I'd take Buehrle over half the other so-called #1 starters. Half of them are aging (Clemens is 43, Randy Johnson is 42, Pedro is 34), and the others, especially the strikeout guys, put high mileage on their arms and probably won't last to 35, or there's no way the Sox can pry them away from their current teams (Felix Hernandez, Johan Santana).

Barring a freak injury, Buehrle should be a solid and consistent 15+ game winner every season for 15 more seasons.

Maybe he's not quite Maddux in his prime, but he's certainly at least as good as Glavine. He's the kind of guy the Sox can build their rotation around for at least the next DECADE.

longshot7
03-22-2006, 02:17 PM
I agree with whomever said that this talk is a bit premature. I think we need to keep Buehrle in a Sox uni for his entire career, but with the option for 2007, we can do the extension thing NEXT offseason, and probably will.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 02:17 PM
Contreras age isn't a concern to me either. He's built like a tank. He's never had arm problems and he's got an easy delivery. There's a precedent for big, hard throwing RH's to pitch well into their 40's.

Contreras might be in his 40's already! :tongue:

Iwritecode
03-22-2006, 02:18 PM
However, if it comes down to 1 game, I'm going with Contreras everytime.

You wouldn't have said this in May/June of last year.

I'm gonna wait and see if Contreras can have more than 1/2 a great season before I start naming him a better #1 starter over Buehrle who has been getting it done for years.

Contreras was the #1 guy in the playoffs because Ozzie was going with the hot hand.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 02:19 PM
I agree with whomever said that this talk is a bit premature. I think we need to keep Buehrle in a Sox uni for his entire career, but with the option for 2007, we can do the extension thing NEXT offseason, and probably will.

The problem is that in one year his price is going to go up even more if he even has an "average" season by his exemplary standards. Barring injury, he's never going to be cheaper to re-sign than he is right now.

Iwritecode
03-22-2006, 02:21 PM
I agree with Voodoo and Jjav. In fact, I'd take Buehrle over half the other so-called #1 starters. Half of them are aging (Clemens is 43, Randy Johnson is 42, Pedro is 34), and the others, especially the strikeout guys, put high mileage on their arms and probably won't last to 35, or there's no way the Sox can pry them away from their current teams (Felix Hernandez, Johan Santana).

I don't think that's necessarily what we are talking about. I think the basic question is "Is Mark a #1 starter?" Certainly there are other pitchers who are a little bit better (or were in their prime) but he's certainly a guy most managers would love to have at the front of their rotation.

TaylorStSox
03-22-2006, 02:21 PM
Contreras might be in his 40's already! :tongue:

Touche! :redneck

For a guy that spends so much time watching Sox games and chatting on this site, I still suck at spelling Mark's name. :redface:

Jjav829
03-22-2006, 02:24 PM
He's topped 190 several times. He's also a 3000 K guy. I don't think Mark will ever be.

Mark Buerhle is a great pitcher. I agree that we should sign him longterm, even if it means overpaying. However, if it comes down to 1 game, I'm going with Contreras everytime.

Contreras age isn't a concern to me either. He's built like a tank. He's never had arm problems and he's got an easy delivery. There's a precedent for big, hard throwing RH's to pitch well into their 40's.

Fair enough. If I knew Contreras would pitch like he did at the end of last year, I would take him for one game as well. But given that we're talking about a 162 game season, I think it's perfectly reasonable to call Buehrle an ace.

And for the record, I wasn't trying to say that Buehrle is as good as Maddux. I was simply using Maddux as an example of a guy who didn't consistently strike out 200+ batters a year, and relied on his defense to make plays, but was still an ace.

sullythered
03-22-2006, 02:26 PM
Please.
Mark Buehrle is a #1 starter. No he doesn't throw 100mph, or strike out a load of guys. Guess what, strikeouts are embarassingly overrated. Melido Perez used to strike a bunch of guys out. Buehrle wins games. And he eats up innings. The point of playing baseball is to win games. That is it. Nothing else matters even a little bit. And I wouldn't trade Buehrles for Zambrano straight up. Health and durability are part of worth as a player. You cannot disclude those factors when determining who the best is.

Randar68
03-22-2006, 02:33 PM
You are saying there are 60 pitcers in baseball who are as good or better than Buehrle? I completely disagree.

If Mark isn't a 1 he's a 1A. You are correct that guys like the ones you mentioned are very rare, but how different is Buehrle from Maddux in terms of stuff?

As to your comment from the previous post, If stuff were all that mattered you would be correct, but Buehrle gets results that guys like Contreras (with the exception of the second half of last year) and Vazquez haven't. Same goes for Garland who is roughly the same age as Buehrle has "better stuff" but has only started to harness it. The only guy I put in the same category as Mark on the Sox is Garcia, the rest still have to prove they can be as consistent and consitent counts as much as anything...

And here's my post that got everyone all riled up...

Hell, if Jose Contreras is his second-half self in the first half, I'd rather sign him to the extension. Buehrle will never be a true #1, Contreras is if last season wasn't an abberration.

Like I said, you wait to see what the real Jose Contreras looks like, but he brings you far more value over the next 2-3 years by signing him to an extension than Mark Buehrle would considering you already have Buehrle THROUGH 2007.

It's a no-brainer, IMO.

sullythered
03-22-2006, 02:41 PM
And here's my post that got everyone all riled up...



Like I said, you wait to see what the real Jose Contreras looks like, but he brings you far more value over the next 2-3 years by signing him to an extension than Mark Buehrle would considering you already have Buehrle THROUGH 2007.

It's a no-brainer, IMO.

I'll say this, if 2nd half Contreras from last year is all year Contreras this year, we're gonna be celebrating another World Series title.

Iwritecode
03-22-2006, 02:41 PM
And here's my post that got everyone all riled up...



Like I said, you wait to see what the real Jose Contreras looks like, but he brings you far more value over the next 2-3 years by signing him to an extension than Mark Buehrle would considering you already have Buehrle THROUGH 2007.

It's a no-brainer, IMO.

IF he can keep up the same production he had the second half of last seasons and IF he can keep it up for those 2-3 years.

Those are some pretty big ifs. We know Mark can do it.

IlliniSox4Life
03-22-2006, 02:42 PM
These Stats are for last year from ESPN.com:

AL ERA Rank:
RKPLAYERTEAM
1. Kevin Millwood Cle
2. Johan Santana Min
3. Mark Buehrle CWS
4. Jarrod Washburn LAA
5. Carlos Silva Min

AL Win Rank:
RKPLAYERTEAM
1. Bartolo Colon LAA
2. Jon Garland CWS
2. Cliff Lee Cle
4. Randy Johnson NYY
T5. Mark Buehrle CWS

AL Innings Pitch Rank:
1. Mark Buehrle CWS
2. Johan Santana Cle
3. Barry Zito Oak
4. Freddy Garcia CWS
5. Randy Johnson NYY

Buehrle's 2004 AL Ranks:
IP - #1
ERA - #7
Wins - T#6

Buehrle's 2003 AL Ranks:
IP - #5
ERA - #19
Wins - T#15

Buehrle was the only pitcher in the AL in the top 5 in IP, ERA, and Wins last year. He was almost in the top five the year before for all three, and in 2003 he was in the teens. Even though his 2003 numbers don't look great compared to what he's done since, there were still only a dozen or so pitchers who would have been ahead of him. Only 7 teams in the AL in 2003 had pitchers with lower ERA's the Buehrle, which means on all the rest of them, he would have been the #1 pitcher that year.

The point being, Buehrle has only gotten better over his career. He is an inning eater and he is a gamer. It doesn't matter how he gets guys out, he gets guys out and he does it consistently. Not only that, but he is one of the most level headed super stars in any sport.

Iwritecode
03-22-2006, 02:52 PM
And here's my post that got everyone all riled up...



Like I said, you wait to see what the real Jose Contreras looks like, but he brings you far more value over the next 2-3 years by signing him to an extension than Mark Buehrle would considering you already have Buehrle THROUGH 2007.

It's a no-brainer, IMO.

Now that I thought about it for a second, I think I know what you are saying. Right now it makes more sense to extend Contreras considering we already have Buehrle for the next 2 years.

But all things being equal, if somebody said you have to pick a pitcher right now to be on the team for the next 3-4 years and it's between Buehrle and Contreras, I'd have to go with Buehrle.

I may change my mind by the end of this season. :cool:

Randar68
03-22-2006, 04:00 PM
IF he can keep up the same production he had the second half of last seasons and IF he can keep it up for those 2-3 years.

Those are some pretty big ifs. We know Mark can do it.

IF he keeps that 2nd half up he's TWICE the pitcher Mark Buehrle is, and that is ENTIRELY my point.

Randar68
03-22-2006, 04:00 PM
Now that I thought about it for a second, I think I know what you are saying. Right now it makes more sense to extend Contreras considering we already have Buehrle for the next 2 years.

But all things being equal, if somebody said you have to pick a pitcher right now to be on the team for the next 3-4 years and it's between Buehrle and Contreras, I'd have to go with Buehrle.

I may change my mind by the end of this season. :cool:

BINGO.

Ol' No. 2
03-22-2006, 04:04 PM
IF he keeps that 2nd half up he's TWICE the pitcher Mark Buehrle is, and that is ENTIRELY my point.The IF part is entirely the point on the other side of this argument. There's something to be said for consistency. You really don't know what you're going to get from Contreras this year. There's no doubt what you're going to get from Buehrle. Pitchers who can go out and give you 15+ wins every single year don't grow on trees.

santo=dorf
03-22-2006, 05:08 PM
But Maddux was never a 200 K guy. He topped the 200 mark just once in his career with 204 K's in 1998. He had some years where he was right below 200, but he also had plenty of years where he was well under 200.
Don't forget to mention that Maddux always had the luxury of striking out the opposing pitcher twice a game as well.

VASoxfan1
03-22-2006, 06:13 PM
Even if Contreras has a great year this year I'm not entirely sure the sox will be able to resign him or want to. First off he'll be a FA and we've all seen what the market is like for free agents with marginal perfomances let alone great ones. Secondly, what he'll be like "36" assuming he only lied a year....how many guys have shown they can effectively pitch into their forties.....Clemmens, nolan ryan, david wells (to some degree), maddux and glavine....meanwhile here you'll have a guy that will be turning 28 that year, proven to be a top 5 pitcher in the AL......lock him up while he's on his prime and not the decline

pearso66
03-22-2006, 09:49 PM
Don't forget to mention that Maddux always had the luxury of striking out the opposing pitcher twice a game as well.

Not to mention the luxury of getting a foot outside called strikes because he was, well, Greg Maddux

Tragg
03-22-2006, 10:24 PM
They've got to lock MB up; he's more important, much more imo, than was locking up PK. He's been a consistent as hell pitcher for this franchise since they day he first took the mound. The most important player on this team.

Let the Dyes walk...not MB.

sullythered
03-22-2006, 10:37 PM
The other thing in the Buehrle/Contreras comparison is that if Jose keeps up his second half performance from last year, he's twice the pitcher ANYBODY is, bar none.

CPditka
03-23-2006, 12:01 AM
MB is not just an ace he is OUR ace. He is a model of consistency, works very quick, and throws strikes. You always know what you are going to get from him and makes the team much more confident when hes pitching. Hes young only 27 years old and has a career era of 3.63, and hes a lock for 220+ innings. Hes a home grown talent and a huge fan favorite. This is not an option MB will be locked up, hes worth about 4 years 40 Mil and will probably be paid something right around that. There is no sox fan that doens't like MB and no sox fan that would ever want to see him in another uniform. MB is just plain and simple a WHITE SOX.

voodoochile
03-23-2006, 12:23 AM
MB is not just an ace he is OUR ace. He is a model of consistency, works very quick, and throws strikes. You always know what you are going to get from him and makes the team much more confident when hes pitching. Hes young only 27 years old and has a career era of 3.63, and hes a lock for 220+ innings. Hes a home grown talent and a huge fan favorite. This is not an option MB will be locked up, hes worth about 4 years 40 Mil and will probably be paid something right around that. There is no sox fan that doens't like MB and no sox fan that would ever want to see him in another uniform. MB is just plain and simple a WHITE SOX.

Given the current state of the market for starting pitching, especially LH starting pitching, MB is probably going to get a LOT more money than that. I expect the offers to come close to 4 years 60M or 5 years 72M.

soxinem1
03-23-2006, 07:13 AM
I like Buehrle as much as anyone, but he has three more years with the team on his contract. Unless he's traded or regresses, I don't see how he leaves unless he really wants to go to St. Louis after the 2008 season.

The future is a strange thing, ie., we don't know what it holds. From a business standpoint, I don't see the reason to lock him up now. It is sort of like that situation the Pirates had with Jason Kendall. Sure, he was good for them, but because they wanted to lock him up before he hit free agency the contract he signed dragged on the team for years and they are just now climbing out from it.

If Buehrle is still effective like the current Buehrle after 2007, then it's time to lock him up.

voodoochile
03-23-2006, 07:29 AM
I like Buehrle as much as anyone, but he has three more years with the team on his contract. Unless he's traded or regresses, I don't see how he leaves unless he really wants to go to St. Louis after the 2008 season.

The future is a strange thing, ie., we don't know what it holds. From a business standpoint, I don't see the reason to lock him up now. It is sort of like that situation the Pirates had with Jason Kendall. Sure, he was good for them, but because they wanted to lock him up before he hit free agency the contract he signed dragged on the team for years and they are just now climbing out from it.

If Buehrle is still effective like the current Buehrle after 2007, then it's time to lock him up.

I believe he only has this year and next on his contract. Next year is a team option which they will definitely invoke, but after that, he is a FA unless they wrap him up.

I think people would like to see the team be proactive in getting him resigned and to some extent I agree. If they invoke the option it might engender some bad feelings as Mark will be seriously underpaid as a SP when they do. It might affect negotiations or cause him to definitely seek FA if the Sox merely invoke it and leave the negotiations to the last minute.

Work on an extension now and tear up the final year and the issue completely disappears.

SBSoxFan
03-23-2006, 08:46 AM
MB is not just an ace he is OUR ace.
I'm reminded of an exchange at the end of the Firefly episode Safe:

Patron: The girl is a witch.

Mal: Yeah, but she's OUR witch.
(cocks his gun, and points it at the Patron)
So cut her the hell down.


:D: wacky fun!

Frater Perdurabo
03-23-2006, 12:28 PM
I believe he only has this year and next on his contract. Next year is a team option which they will definitely invoke, but after that, he is a FA unless they wrap him up.

I think people would like to see the team be proactive in getting him resigned and to some extent I agree. If they invoke the option it might engender some bad feelings as Mark will be seriously underpaid as a SP when they do. It might affect negotiations or cause him to definitely seek FA if the Sox merely invoke it and leave the negotiations to the last minute.

Work on an extension now and tear up the final year and the issue completely disappears.

This is why I'm all for being pro-active.

Contreras had a chance to sign a longer-term contract with the Sox. Remember, Kenny simultaneously tried to work out a deal with Garland and Contreras. Many of us expected Garland to reject the Sox offer and for Contreras to sign first. Garland surprised us by graciously accepting while Contreras refused.

Let's not let Buehrle get to that point, or worse, the position the Sox put themselves in with Jack McDowell.

Trying to work something out now engenders good will with Buehrle and many of the rest of the players. He's not the type of guy to grow a beer gut and mail it in once he gets the big deal. Getting a long-term deal done now would give the Sox cost certainty perhaps through 2010, and would demonstrate to the rest of the Sox that loyalty, consistency and hard work will be rewarded.

voodoochile
03-23-2006, 12:34 PM
This is why I'm all for being pro-active.

Contreras had a chance to sign a longer-term contract with the Sox. Remember, Kenny simultaneously tried to work out a deal with Garland and Contreras. Many of us expected Garland to reject the Sox offer and for Contreras to sign first. Garland surprised us by graciously accepting while Contreras refused.

Let's not let Buehrle get to that point, or worse, the position the Sox put themselves in with Jack McDowell.

Trying to work something out now engenders good will with Buehrle and many of the rest of the players. He's not the type of guy to grow a beer gut and mail it in once he gets the big deal. Getting a long-term deal done now would give the Sox cost certainty perhaps through 2010, and would demonstrate to the rest of the Sox that loyalty, consistency and hard work will be rewarded.

Garland essentially signed a similar to market value deal as Buehrle did to carry him through the rest of his only arb eligible years. He couldn't have been a complete RFA for 3 more seasons, so it made sense for him to take a deal which would be at or near market value over those years unless he suddenly turns into Roger Clemens. He is also young and has 2 or 3 more contracts coming to him barring a major injury.

Contreras is older and has only one maybe two big contracts left in him. If he continues to pitch like he did in the second half last year, he might end up seriously breaking the bank next year so it made sense to wait. Even if he backslides, he should be able to get a deal close to what he was offered simply based on what he did last year.

Frater Perdurabo
03-23-2006, 01:20 PM
Garland essentially signed a similar to market value deal as Buehrle did to carry him through the rest of his only arb eligible years. He couldn't have been a complete RFA for 3 more seasons, so it made sense for him to take a deal which would be at or near market value over those years unless he suddenly turns into Roger Clemens. He is also young and has 2 or 3 more contracts coming to him barring a major injury.

Contreras is older and has only one maybe two big contracts left in him. If he continues to pitch like he did in the second half last year, he might end up seriously breaking the bank next year so it made sense to wait. Even if he backslides, he should be able to get a deal close to what he was offered simply based on what he did last year.

The bottom line for me is that Buehrle is the kind of pitcher who could, if he remains healthy, be pitching effectively for the Sox in 2016. IMHO it makes sense to lock up a mainstay in the rotation for a 4-5 year deal now, just like the Braves did with Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux in the early and mid-90s. (FWIW, I see Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy having the same importance to the Sox as Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux had for those Braves teams.)

The other aspect is that if the Sox want to ink Buehrle to a 4-5 year deal next year, the price almost certainly will be significantly higher than it would be right now.

thomas35forever
03-23-2006, 05:00 PM
MB is not just an ace he is OUR ace. He is a model of consistency, works very quick, and throws strikes. You always know what you are going to get from him and makes the team much more confident when hes pitching. Hes young only 27 years old and has a career era of 3.63, and hes a lock for 220+ innings. Hes a home grown talent and a huge fan favorite. This is not an option MB will be locked up, hes worth about 4 years 40 Mil and will probably be paid something right around that. There is no sox fan that doens't like MB and no sox fan that would ever want to see him in another uniform. MB is just plain and simple a WHITE SOX.

I agree. If Buehrle's going to win the Cy Young award one day, it has to be in a White Sox uniform. Nobody in this town wants to see him leave. Teams would kill to have a guy work at a face pace like Buehrle.