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lumpyspun
03-21-2006, 05:07 PM
Three run homerun...the sky is falling, storm head!

Tekijawa
03-21-2006, 05:10 PM
I won't quit you Matt! I bet if Borchard we in the OF that wouldn't have been a Homer!

HomeFish
03-21-2006, 05:11 PM
No. His first batter faced was a ground ball to Uribe that Uribe committed an error on. It -should- have ended the inning.

Instead, Thorton gets 4 unearned runs tacked on to him.

oeo
03-21-2006, 05:12 PM
That wasn't his first batter...if it wasn't for a Uribe error, the homer would have never happened.

mbwhitesox
03-21-2006, 05:12 PM
His first batter he made a nice pitch and what should have been an easy groundout was booted by Uribe.

Second batter got a lucky bloop single to RF.

THEN the 3 run HR.

I'm not trying to defend the guy b/c he looks terrible out there, but not all of it was his fault.

lumpyspun
03-21-2006, 05:15 PM
Thanks for the corrections...third batter. I went to the bathroom here at work and when I came back I thought it was the first batter...

Ol' No. 2
03-21-2006, 05:15 PM
He's obviously Coop's project for the year. Don't expect him to be used in real games except in garbage time until they get some confidence in him.

Jerko
03-21-2006, 05:17 PM
He's obviously Coop's project for the year. Don't expect him to be used in real games except in garbage time until they get some confidence in him.

True. Coop can't work his magic in one day. I think by mid-year we'll be happy with this guy. I hope so anyway.

veeter
03-21-2006, 05:20 PM
Man, I love his arm though.

mbwhitesox
03-21-2006, 05:21 PM
Is this guy expected to make the team? I thought he was out of minor league options.

Ol' No. 2
03-21-2006, 05:22 PM
True. Coop can't work his magic in one day. I think by mid-year we'll be happy with this guy. I hope so anyway.He's replacing Damaso Frikkin' Marte. How hard can that be?

ilsox7
03-21-2006, 05:25 PM
He's replacing Damaso Frikkin' Marte. How hard can that be?

For some reason, this just made me :rolling:.

delben91
03-21-2006, 05:29 PM
He's replacing Damaso Frikkin' Marte. How hard can that be?

^ This man speaks the truth.

Jerko
03-21-2006, 05:33 PM
Well, if he's replacing Marte he's doing a fine job so far.

lumpyspun
03-21-2006, 05:34 PM
He's replacing Damaso Frikkin' Marte. How hard can that be?

If anything it appears the dude will give me less ulcers than Damaso this year...Damaso was brutal on the stomach.

SoxSpeed22
03-21-2006, 05:36 PM
He's replacing Damaso Frikkin' Marte. How hard can that be?Just remember that Vizcaino and Marte ate up a lot of innings early in the year. True that Marte did suck in the second half, but those are still innings that are tough to replace.

SoxFan76
03-21-2006, 05:47 PM
Just remember that Vizcaino and Marte ate up a lot of innings early in the year. True that they did suck in the second half, but those are still innings that are tough to replace.

sigh....

Vizcaino didn't suck in the 2nd half. Vizcaino was one of the better relievers in the league last year.*

*Note I said "better", not best. Don't start another argument here please.

ilsox7
03-21-2006, 05:50 PM
sigh....

Vizcaino didn't suck in the 2nd half. Vizcaino was one of the better relievers in the league last year.*

*Note I said "better", not best. Don't start another argument here please.

Yup. I was just about to post this, but I could not find his actual splits. But Viz in the 2nd half was quite good.

SoxSpeed22
03-21-2006, 05:55 PM
Yup. I was just about to post this, but I could not find his actual splits. But Viz in the 2nd half was quite good.Just beat me to it. Vizcaino had over 70 innings.

FloridaSox
03-21-2006, 06:07 PM
If anything it appears the dude will give me less ulcers than Damaso this year...Damaso was brutal on the stomach.

Get out the Pepto Bismal...because the bullpen is going to give you quite a few uclers this year...that is, unless my new hero, Boone Logan, is given the keys to the bullpen.

Banix12
03-21-2006, 06:20 PM
Anybody find it fitting that he gets #37? I get a bit of Jon Adkins vibe off this guy, except left handed.

SoxFan76
03-21-2006, 11:56 PM
Yup. I was just about to post this, but I could not find his actual splits. But Viz in the 2nd half was quite good.

Yet people are so ****ing quick to rip on Vizcaino because he had a bad outing against Cleveland at the beginning of the year.

It makes me so angry!!!!!

chisoxmike
03-22-2006, 12:07 AM
Three run homerun...the sky is falling, storm head!

You obviously didn't watch the game.

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 09:27 AM
No one can ever "replace" Marte unless they regularly and repeatedly are willing to:

1. Throw a 58 foot curve ball in the dirt to allow a run to score on a wild pitch;

2. Bean a batter with the bases loaded;

3. Walk the #9 hitter on four pitches to load the bases;

4. Balk

:rolleyes:

lumpyspun
03-22-2006, 09:40 AM
You obviously didn't watch the game.

And you obviously didn't read the previous posts where I admitted my mistake and I said that I left the game for a few minutes and thought it was his first batter.

ilsox7
03-22-2006, 10:18 AM
Yet people are so ****ing quick to rip on Vizcaino because he had a bad outing against Cleveland at the beginning of the year.

It makes me so angry!!!!!

I hear ya. But I'll take reading this type of mistake over the green seat discussion any day of the week!

russ99
03-22-2006, 10:21 AM
No one can ever "replace" Marte unless they regularly and repeatedly are willing to:

1. Throw a 58 foot curve ball in the dirt to allow a run to score on a wild pitch;

2. Bean a batter with the bases loaded;

3. Walk the #9 hitter on four pitches to load the bases;

4. Balk

:rolleyes:

Oh, how soon we forget! :tongue:

Chicken Dinner
03-22-2006, 10:23 AM
If he can give up less walks than Marte and less hits than Kevin Walker.....He's got to be an improvement.

ilsox7
03-22-2006, 10:58 AM
No one can ever "replace" Marte unless they regularly and repeatedly are willing to:

1. Throw a 58 foot curve ball in the dirt to allow a run to score on a wild pitch;

2. Bean a batter with the bases loaded;

3. Walk the #9 hitter on four pitches to load the bases;

4. Balk

:rolleyes:

5. Show up on the mound with the wrong hat in front of the entire world.

Hawkeroo1980
03-22-2006, 11:38 AM
He's replacing Damaso Frikkin' Marte. How hard can that be?

i'm sorry but i'd take Damaso right now.

White Sox Randy
03-22-2006, 11:51 AM
Marte was excellent for a few years - now everyone forgot. He was our best reliever a couple of years ago.

And, even at his worst, he is better than this guy.

Baby Fisk
03-22-2006, 11:54 AM
Yet people are so ****ing quick to rip on Vizcaino because he had a bad outing against Cleveland at the beginning of the year.

It makes me so angry!!!!!
Viz took one for the team early last year. It blew his ERA out of proportion for most of the season. You are correct!

SBSoxFan
03-22-2006, 12:24 PM
How was Thorton's full inning?

viagracat
03-22-2006, 12:35 PM
His line: 1.1 IP, 4 hits, 4 runs (0 earned), 2 BB, 2 K. But Ozzie says "I like what I see". 96 mph? Cool. If he can learn to get it over the plate, might be cool. Borchard just never got it together, and I'll never forget the inning from hell from Marte in the playoffs. Give the kid some time.

Baby Fisk
03-22-2006, 12:41 PM
Give the kid some time.Wigging out is more fun.

White Sox Randy
03-22-2006, 12:47 PM
He's not a kid - he'll be 30 this year.

SBSoxFan
03-22-2006, 12:58 PM
Wigging out is more fun. :D:

Didn't he pitch a scoreless inning after all the unearned runs though?

Lip Man 1
03-22-2006, 01:21 PM
His pitching line yesterday was 1.1 innings pitched.

Lip

SBSoxFan
03-22-2006, 01:25 PM
His pitching line yesterday was 1.1 innings pitched.

Lip
I know, but weren't the 4 runs given up while finishing off the 6th for Garland? Then he pitched a scoreless 7th? Just looking for a silver lining here. :smile:

Corlose 15
03-22-2006, 03:21 PM
Marte was excellent for a few years - now everyone forgot. He was our best reliever a couple of years ago.

And, even at his worst, he is better than this guy.

You have way too high an opinion of yourself. Everyone remembers how good Marte was 2 and 3 years ago and everyone remembers how often he **** his pants last year.:rolleyes:

sullythered
03-22-2006, 03:37 PM
He's not a kid - he'll be 30 this year.

I think you've got a personal vendetta against this guy. Yeah, he has sucked so far. But he has a good fastball, and we have one of the two best pitching coaches in baseball. He might help out at some point. No need to argue against him ever doing anything so adamatly.

santo=dorf
03-22-2006, 06:17 PM
i'm sorry but i'd take Damaso right now.
....even with the bum shoulder?

It's too bad Shingo had to **** his pants against the Indians in the 3rd game of the season in a game where Ozzie was acting like Tony LaRussa in the 7th inning. That one outing totally bloated Viz's ERA and some Sox fans already threw him under the bus.

2nd Half: 2.60 ERA, 1.27 WHIP.

I wouldn't mind getting him back.

SABRSox
03-22-2006, 08:39 PM
He's not a kid - he'll be 30 this year.

Pitchers don't reach their peak as soon as hitters. The so-called "golden age" of 27 applies to hitters only. A pitchers peak is usually in his early thirties. So I'd still say roll the dice with Thornton, despite the age, and see if he can find his control. If he does, we've got a lefty that throws 96-98mph heat. Not a bad LOOGY, IMO.

Mohoney
03-22-2006, 09:20 PM
Just remember that Vizcaino and Marte ate up a lot of innings early in the year. True that Marte did suck in the second half, but those are still innings that are tough to replace.

But they were replaced...by adding ANOTHER 200+ inning starter to the rotation.

Banix12
03-22-2006, 10:41 PM
Pitchers don't reach their peak as soon as hitters. The so-called "golden age" of 27 applies to hitters only. A pitchers peak is usually in his early thirties. So I'd still say roll the dice with Thornton, despite the age, and see if he can find his control. If he does, we've got a lefty that throws 96-98mph heat. Not a bad LOOGY, IMO.

True, and I think we've all seen so many pitchers go from meat to being quality middle relievers in a short period of time with a little tweaking that it's worth a shot. The brewers have essentally made a cottage industry of reviving the careers of suspect pitchers (Kolb for example) and later on they usually trade them off for prospects.

Tragg
03-22-2006, 11:27 PM
Marte was excellent for a few years - now everyone forgot. He was our best reliever a couple of years ago.

And, even at his worst, he is better than this guy. He certainly was. And if this guy's as good as Marte was LAST year, I'll do a dance.
And we'll see if Ross Gload out produces Borchard, too.

Banix12
03-22-2006, 11:48 PM
He certainly was. And if this guy's as good as Marte was LAST year, I'll do a dance.
And we'll see if Ross Gload out produces Borchard, too.

I actually expect him to at least end up around Marte's production last season. Thornton right now seems to be around the same type of pitcher that Marte was last year. Sure Marte's ERA was under 4 and Thornton's ERA was over 5, but that's because the sox bullpen was so good at bailing him out of trouble last season.

Thornton's WHIP last season 1.68
Marte's WHIP last season 1.72

So they are already essentially the same pitcher, at least when it comes to WHIP.

As for the other comment, Gload has always out produced Borchard so why should he stop now.

White Sox Randy
03-23-2006, 09:25 AM
As far as Gload vs. Borchard....it doesn't make much difference to me. I looked at these guys more as defensive players anyway.

But, I'm going on the record right now to say that I don't believe that Thornton will ever be as good as Marte. I don't even think that is a stretch to say that.

We get Mackowiack,one of the best bench players in baseball, for Marte. We only have to give up Borchard to get the great Matt Thornton.

If Thornton were 22-23, then I would cut the guy some slack and see what happens. But, truthfully, the guy has been a bust longer than Borchard has. Plenty of coaches have been trying to straighten this guy out for what 8 years ?

Seriously, if Cooper can make this guy into a reliable relief pitcher than he really is a special coach. And, I hope he does. I will root for Thornton to play well just as I have for every Sox player since 1970.

Banix12
03-23-2006, 05:01 PM
As far as Gload vs. Borchard....it doesn't make much difference to me. I looked at these guys more as defensive players anyway.

But, I'm going on the record right now to say that I don't believe that Thornton will ever be as good as Marte. I don't even think that is a stretch to say that.

We get Mackowiack,one of the best bench players in baseball, for Marte. We only have to give up Borchard to get the great Matt Thornton.

If Thornton were 22-23, then I would cut the guy some slack and see what happens. But, truthfully, the guy has been a bust longer than Borchard has. Plenty of coaches have been trying to straighten this guy out for what 8 years ?

Seriously, if Cooper can make this guy into a reliable relief pitcher than he really is a special coach. And, I hope he does. I will root for Thornton to play well just as I have for every Sox player since 1970.

Can Thornton be as great as Marte was his first couple years in the majors? That's probably very unlikely.

Can Thornton be as good as Marte has been recently? I'd say he's already there.

Basically we traded a suspect Marte to get Mackowiak and then we traded Borchard to get back a pitcher in Thornton who basically throws like a suspect Marte.

At least based on recent performance I'd say Marte vs. Thornton is a wash. Neither has been very good lately as both have shown poor control and have struggled to retire lefties.

White Sox Randy
03-24-2006, 08:33 AM
Can Thornton be as great as Marte was his first couple years in the majors? That's probably very unlikely.

Can Thornton be as good as Marte has been recently? I'd say he's already there.

Basically we traded a suspect Marte to get Mackowiak and then we traded Borchard to get back a pitcher in Thornton who basically throws like a suspect Marte.

At least based on recent performance I'd say Marte vs. Thornton is a wash. Neither has been very good lately as both have shown poor control and have struggled to retire lefties.


You make my point. I'm not saying that we should have kept Marte. The trade for Mack. was a great one.

But, if you think Marte stunk at the end of last year and you are saying that Thornton is the same, why trade for the guy ? Basically, on his good day this guy is as good as Marte on a bad day.

I don't really care that we traded for the guy. I don't want him in our bullpen now because he is not good enough. Let him try to work out his problems in Charlotte. If you just want a competitive team, fine - keep him. If we want to repeat and win another WS, then we need better bullpen guys than him. We aren't going to get another chance to do this.

I want to see us with another reliable proven relief pitcher. Maybe Redding can step up.

lostletters
03-24-2006, 02:50 PM
This guy is a project for Coop. He obviously has talent. He is in the garbage position in the Bullpen for now.

Logan, who has been VERY consistant in spring training will probably be moved up to be in the position to replace vizciano.

Politte is coming back to his form of last season, there was something off in his mechanics.

Cotts came back in his true form. The guy is probably the only consistancy in the bullpen.


Basically Politte and Cotts are fine.

Bullpens are ALWAYS a gamble year to year and a work in progress. Even last year the Sox only had three guys really consistant, and hermanson was injured alot the second half, and Viz came around in the second half.
Jenks appeared the second half as well.

If you have three guys you can depend on you are lucky. The Sox have three guys right now where they should be (Logan, Cotts, and Politte).

Also bullpens are heavily reliant on youth. Good veteran relievers are called closers and setup men and are few and far between. Mostly this is something you have to reform a pitcher (read: Politte) or bring one up through your own system (read: Cotts).

Coop thinks he can reform Thorton, he may blossum in the second half the same way Viz did. If not I do not see him as any worse then Marte.

Jenks, I think Jenks will get there, but he may not be to the point he needs to be at the first week of the season, so do not be surprised to see Cotts closing out some games.

McCarthy, it is mechanics and he will probably be where he needs to be like Politte at the begining of the season.

Flight #24
03-24-2006, 02:58 PM
But, if you think Marte stunk at the end of last year and you are saying that Thornton is the same, why trade for the guy ? Basically, on his good day this guy is as good as Marte on a bad day.


Because Borchard was useless, this guy at least has a hope of being useful. Also, regardless of what he is right now, Coop & KW obviously think they can turn him around into something good or even special fairly quickly. That could be hubris, or it could be that a good swift roundhouse kick will set him right.

Ol' No. 2
03-24-2006, 03:01 PM
You make my point. I'm not saying that we should have kept Marte. The trade for Mack. was a great one.

But, if you think Marte stunk at the end of last year and you are saying that Thornton is the same, why trade for the guy ? Basically, on his good day this guy is as good as Marte on a bad day.

I don't really care that we traded for the guy. I don't want him in our bullpen now because he is not good enough. Let him try to work out his problems in Charlotte. If you just want a competitive team, fine - keep him. If we want to repeat and win another WS, then we need better bullpen guys than him. We aren't going to get another chance to do this.

I want to see us with another reliable proven relief pitcher. Maybe Redding can step up.Let's see....Cooper and Ozzie think he has potential. You think he sucks. Who to believe...???

palehozenychicty
03-24-2006, 03:53 PM
Let's see....Cooper and Ozzie think he has potential. You think he sucks. Who to believe...???

True. At the worst, he'll give us similar numbers to Marte last year. At the best, he can make us significantly better. KW again buying low, possibly winning big.

delben91
03-26-2006, 09:12 PM
Cooper magic beginning to take hold?

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060326&content_id=1363046&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

Way too early to say, but have to like the early returns...

One minor change in Matt Thornton's delivery, made by pitching coach Don Cooper, already has made a noticeable difference. Thornton threw two scoreless innings on Sunday, walking just one, riding out his stride as far as he could with each pitch. "The change is helping my control unbelievably -- in the bullpen and now in the games," Thornton said. "It's a start. If I can throw the ball like I did today, I think it will be a big step forward for me."

Ol' No. 2
03-26-2006, 09:14 PM
Cooper magic beginning to take hold?

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060326&content_id=1363046&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

Way to early to say, but have to like the early returns...He threw the ball pretty well today. But that fastball is still straight as an arrow.:(: Kinda reminds me of Alan Embree.:(::(: