PDA

View Full Version : WBC: Beautiful or Bust?


kevin57
03-21-2006, 07:56 AM
There were lots of posts before and during the WBC about whether this was a good or bad idea. Now that it's over and we've had a chance to see it through completely, what's your opinion?

StepsInSC
03-21-2006, 08:06 AM
Well I think it could use some improvements, but not enough to make me vote for "needs significant changes". Thus, I voted for #1.

It was undeniably competitive. There were no major injuries. The atmosphere at many of the games was great, and it seemed that many teams' countries were very riled up about it. I think it was great. I'm curious to see how the detractors will rail on it, in spite of a lack of injuries.

kevin57
03-21-2006, 08:12 AM
Well I think it could use some improvements, but not enough to make me vote for "needs significant changes". Thus, I voted for #1.

The (significant) is put in parentheses to indicate that the degree to which changes need to be made could be on a continuum. Thus, one would chose this option if he thought that relatively minor or major changes need to be made.

Madvora
03-21-2006, 08:44 AM
I loved all of it, but I still don't think it's fair that Korea only lost one game and they're out of it while Japan lost to Korea twice and the US, yet still won the championship.

Another thing is that I wish that after the first round, you are put in another group. Japan and Korea, for example, shouldn't play in the second round too. I'd like to see the Latin American teams get mixed in with the Asian teams in round 2. Everything is in the US or PR at that point anyway.

itsnotrequired
03-21-2006, 08:52 AM
I think the championship needs to be a series. Anything can happen in one game. It doesn't have to be some major series, just a best of three. The semis could still be single elimination.

Ideally, the semis would be a best of three and the championship would be a best of five but that could drag the whole event out too long.

Jerko
03-21-2006, 09:00 AM
CHANGE the tiebreakers, switch groups after each round, and I have no problem with it. I enjoyed it.

itsnotrequired
03-21-2006, 09:05 AM
CHANGE the tiebreakers, switch groups after each round, and I have no problem with it. I enjoyed it.

I think the tiebreaker situation was fine. Its the way they have been doing it in international competition for years.

StepsInSC
03-21-2006, 09:10 AM
BA's take on it:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/060320wbcschwarz.html

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 09:30 AM
The WBC was pretty good, and seems to have been pretty well received in general. raising global awareness like that is good for the sport. The biggest thing is that anecdotally, the American players were VERY into it, which tells me the national pride angle works. However, I think there are some things that can & should be done to tweak it. Just IMO, although to be fair, I'm taking liberally from various writers (and IIRC our very own PHG).

- Set some better standards for team eligibility. Let's say where you were born/have citizenship, or where your parents were born/had citizenship.

- Keep single elimination and the pitch counts, and keep the early rounds in March.

- Use results from this WBC to structure the groups for the next one. So US doesn't get any favorable treatment.

- Have the Semis & Finals at the AS break, extending the break by a few days to accomodate. Pitchers involved will get 1 more outing than otherwise, but will have a nice long break.

- Investigate having the winner play the WS winner in a 1-game or 3-game playoff after the WS is done. Possibly cut the schedule to 154 games or something (although the revenue hit might be too big for most teams). Tiring for the champs - yes.

- Keep it in the US/Latin America. There's no way around the fact that the best players are here and you can't take them halfway around the world from ST.

- Get a better TV deal. More games in primetime.

TomBradley72
03-21-2006, 10:07 AM
My vote would be for a fourth option: I like it but it needs some changes...but not signfificant. Other than the great White Sox years...as good a 2-3 weeks of baseball as I've ever watched. Very entertaining...and very unique.

1951Campbell
03-21-2006, 10:08 AM
Scrap it.

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 10:17 AM
Scrap it.Rationale?

Chicken Dinner
03-21-2006, 10:28 AM
If your going to sell the TV rights to a loser like ESPN in order to promote this thing, THEN MAKE THEM SHOW THE GAMES LIVE!!!!

mjharrison72
03-21-2006, 10:41 AM
I think they should only do it every four years, like the World Cup.

That, and they should have a really awesome trophy they play for. :cool:

davenicholson
03-21-2006, 10:46 AM
- Have the Semis & Finals at the AS break, extending the break by a few days to accomodate. Pitchers involved will get 1 more outing than otherwise, but will have a nice long break.


As someone who froze his butt off during Game 2 of the World Series (a considerable feat), I would be against this. Extending the playoffs even deeper into October increases the risk that it will be snowing the next time I'm watching the Sox in the World Series!

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 10:50 AM
As someone who froze his butt off during Game 2 of the World Series (a considerable feat), I would be against this. Extending the playoffs even deeper into October increases the risk that it will be snowing the next time I'm watching the Sox in the World Series!

Good point, but I wonder if a day at the beginning of the season and a day at the end really make that much difference?

Rooney4Prez56
03-21-2006, 10:53 AM
- Set some better standards for team eligibility. Let's say where you were born/have citizenship, or where your parents were born/had citizenship.



Amen to that.

RealMenWearBlack
03-21-2006, 11:10 AM
The tie breaker system has to change and the games have to be aired a lot earlier.

0o0o0
03-21-2006, 11:23 AM
the only thing i didn't like about it was watching the u.s. team, and not just cause they sucked. even if they won it all, who cares? they played like they didn't give a ****, but it's understandable. they have a more important season ahead of them. so watching them was really boring, but on the other hand, how could you not love fans from cuba and the dominican going nuts for their team. it was a good thing to see.

i think it would be really interesting to see the winner of the world series play the best teams every other country has to offer. then they can actually be called world champs.

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 11:46 AM
I loved it. Best few weeks of baseball since last October.

A couple of changes,

make it every year or every other year at least.

keep the first round pools but then have a round robin tourney where you play each of the seven other teams once (twice is better)

the top two teams play a best of three series for the championship.

the USA Team should be picked by someone without an east coast bias.

the Grapefruit and Cactus Leagues should have automatic births for last year's Japanese champ/ maybe Korean champ and a Cuban team or a Caribbean team or two. I think another Arizona city could be found which would be interested in hosting the Koreans and another the Japanese.

1951Campbell
03-21-2006, 12:47 PM
Rationale?

It doesn't attract many top players for many countries because those players are in MLB and don't want to get hurt.

Furthermore, you have ridiculously lax "rules" for who may be counted as a citizen of certain countries.

In the end, it's a B-list of players who may or may not even be playing for a country they've ever set foot in. It's boring and contrived.

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 01:17 PM
It doesn't attract many top players for many countries because those players are in MLB and don't want to get hurt.

Furthermore, you have ridiculously lax "rules" for who may be counted as a citizen of certain countries.

In the end, it's a B-list of players who may or may not even be playing for a country they've ever set foot in. It's boring and contrived.

Yeah, who would consider guys like ARod, Pujols, Tejada, Vlady, Santana, Vazquez, Garcia, Ichiro, Jeter as anything more than B-list.....:rolleyes:

I agree with you on the citizenship point (as I noted), and as someone else said - the tiebreakers need to change. But the key point here is that there's no denying that this event has added a ton of interest in March baseball globally and at home (or else why would you have many complaining that ESPN isn't showing the games?). That means it's a good thing.

As for the injury possibility, I'm still not sure that there's any greater chance of that v. regular spring games.

longshot7
03-21-2006, 01:35 PM
The WBC was pretty good, and seems to have been pretty well received in general. raising global awareness like that is good for the sport. The biggest thing is that anecdotally, the American players were VERY into it, which tells me the national pride angle works. However, I think there are some things that can & should be done to tweak it. Just IMO, although to be fair, I'm taking liberally from various writers (and IIRC our very own PHG).

- Set some better standards for team eligibility. Let's say where you were born/have citizenship, or where your parents were born/had citizenship.

- Keep single elimination and the pitch counts, and keep the early rounds in March.

- Use results from this WBC to structure the groups for the next one. So US doesn't get any favorable treatment.

- Have the Semis & Finals at the AS break, extending the break by a few days to accomodate. Pitchers involved will get 1 more outing than otherwise, but will have a nice long break.

- Investigate having the winner play the WS winner in a 1-game or 3-game playoff after the WS is done. Possibly cut the schedule to 154 games or something (although the revenue hit might be too big for most teams). Tiring for the champs - yes.

- Keep it in the US/Latin America. There's no way around the fact that the best players are here and you can't take them halfway around the world from ST.

- Get a better TV deal. More games in primetime.

Very good post. Baseball America's suggestions were very good as well. The only problem I see with having the semis & finals during the all-star break would be the travel difficulty getting the Asian teams over here during their season.

But on the whole, I loved it. I feel bad for Korea, but like the later rounds of the World Cup and College World Series, single elimination is the way to do it.

StockdaleForVeep
03-21-2006, 03:55 PM
I said keep but some minor changes

All games televised, theres some espn programming i can do without
the citizenship issue
the tiebreaking rule

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 04:20 PM
The citizenship thing is actually quite standard across World Cup tournaments. Having lived in New Zealand, where rugby is the national sport (well, that and homebrewing) I can tell you that the participation rules for the Rugby World Cup are virtually identical, grandparent-based ones. They give lesser countries, with some development in the sport, like Italy, a chance to field a team with a smattering of major and minor leaguers so at least they can play and keep the games interesting. Without these players, Italy would not have been able to participate.

I know this is unpopular but I think the citizenship rule should stay just where it is.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-21-2006, 05:06 PM
It doesn't attract many top players for many countries because those players are in MLB and don't want to get hurt.

Furthermore, you have ridiculously lax "rules" for who may be counted as a citizen of certain countries.

In the end, it's a B-list of players who may or may not even be playing for a country they've ever set foot in. It's boring and contrived.

I agree. You shouldn't be on say Italy because you like Italian food.

If you want to have a real tournament, do the following:

1. Hold it in November / December when it will be televised during a time people will actually care (i.e. not during March Madness) and not interfere with Spring Training.

2. Scale back the number of teams to squads who can actually field a decent squad of passport holders of or natives born in the country they represent.

4. Have a double elimination tournament like the NCAA World Series - not this bogus runs calculation to see who advances.

Do that and maybe I'll watch it next time. The only thing I cared about during this tournament was whether or not Garcia or Vazquez would get hurt.

CanBuehrleWait
03-21-2006, 05:08 PM
But on the whole, I loved it. I feel bad for Korea, but like the later rounds of the World Cup and College World Series, single elimination is the way to do it.

It's just not fair that Korea had to beat Japan 3 times to make it to the finals where as Japan only had to beat them once. I also don't get the tiebreakers. Canada was 2-1 just like Mexico and the US in round 1. Seeing as Canada beat the US why were they booted again? Also the other examples I don't recall of ties.

JUribe1989
03-21-2006, 05:11 PM
I absolutely loved the tournament, but I find it unfair that Korea, the team with the best record, did not win the tournament. If you are going to have a round robin tournament, you must have the tournament be round robin the entire time. You can't go to a regular 1 game elimination for the last 2 games. Other than that, GREAT!

RealMenWearBlack
03-21-2006, 05:14 PM
I absolutely loved the tournament, but I find it unfair that Korea, the team with the best record, did not win the tournament. If you are going to have a round robin tournament, you must have the tournament be round robin the entire time. You can't go to a regular 1 game elimination for the last 2 games. Other than that, GREAT!

I thought they should have had three game series format for the last two rounds.

lumpyspun
03-21-2006, 05:19 PM
I can't take it seriously b/c of the pitch count rule. I understand why they have it, so pitchers don't get overused. However, to me it is like biddy basketball where every kid has to get in the game. If you are going to play baseball, don't do it halfway. If Puerto Rico thought they could win every game by having Vazquez pitch 9 innings every game, then why shouldn't they be allowed to win in a manner they think gives them the best shot.

ChiSoxRowand
03-21-2006, 06:16 PM
My biggest problem is that some of the games were on at the same time as march madness. That needs to change. I would also switch groups more often.

jortafan
03-21-2006, 06:28 PM
I also don't get the tiebreakers. Canada was 2-1 just like Mexico and the US in round 1. Seeing as Canada beat the US why were they booted again?

Canada may have beat the U.S. by a score of 8-6, but Mexico beat Canada in that same round by a score of 9-1. Getting beat by so much screwed up any chance that Canada would have been among the two best teams in that pool.

Besides, aside from the sight of having Canadian ballplayer spouse Chastity Clapp sitting in the stands (I still get a kick out of that name), was anything really lost by not having Canada in the second round? At least team Mexico showed some very respectable pitching throughout the tournament (with the exception of the one game where Esteban Loaiza got his butt kicked by Japan).

MUsoxfan
03-21-2006, 07:14 PM
I hated it. I'll tell you why:

* A majority of these teams were made up of largely average players that may or may not have ever been to the country (or the continent that the country is on) that they played for.

* It took Major League players with Major League salaries out of the camp of the team that pays them and where their first allegiance should be

* These weren't even real baseball games. They were structured around pitch counts.

* Alot of other people must have found it dopey as well because many of the early U.S. games were sparcely attended. The game the Rocket pitched at the BOB had little more than friends and family in attendance. Listening to Selig would have you believe this is what people have been begging for since the beginning of time

* It gives players unnecessary injury risks. I don't want to hear the "Well, they can get hurt in Spring Training too" argument because while true, Spring Training is a necessary component in MLB. If I were KW and Freddy or Vazquez got hurt I would hold their agents and Selig personally responsible for the teams wasted $$

GregoryEtc
03-21-2006, 07:21 PM
Why not hold it in February? Football season is over. Basketball and hockey are in the middle of their long painful seasons. Its the most dead time of year for sports. The world would be more focused on baseball if they moved it to February. Plus, any injury sustained in february would most likely be healed by april or may... no big deal.

Also, there should have been a major trophy, like the world cup.

flo-B-flo
03-21-2006, 08:57 PM
When I was young, my mom and dad would go on vacation to Puerto Rico. When they returned, my dad would tell all these cool stories about the Caribbean series. I always wanted to see ALL the baseball teams in the world get it on. The success the Japanese and Korean teams were having in the little league games I watched as a youth, proved to me that thay too could play the game. With a few tweaks - many good ideas in here - this is gonna be huge worldwide. And great fun for me.

santo=dorf
03-21-2006, 10:30 PM
* It gives players unnecessary injury risks. I don't want to hear the "Well, they can get hurt in Spring Training too" argument because while true, Spring Training is a necessary component in MLB. If I were KW and Freddy or Vazquez got hurt I would hold their agents and Selig personally responsible for the teams wasted $$
Based on what?
Considering most of the fuss was about the pitchers and thus implementing the pitch count rule, I would love to see someone proved how an injured player in the WBC would not have been injured if he was in spring training.
There was one serious injury in the WBC, and it was from a pitcher who was recovering from a sore elbow after surgery for a bone spur.

Upon his successful completion of a bullpen session yesterday, Luis Ayala said that he is going to play for Mexico in the World Baseball Classic.
Ayala has been dealing with some elbow soreness as he recovers from surgery to remove a bone spur. "This is my country," Ayala said. "I played for Mexico in different tournaments. I even went to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., in 1986. I feel great. I want to play for my team in any situation." The Nationals were unsuccessful earlier this month in an attempt to prevent Ayala from taking part.

I would make the final round double elimination. The one and done was too NFL-like and took away the intriguing matchups of Cuba-Korea and D.R.-Japan.

StockdaleForVeep
03-21-2006, 10:58 PM
I Wonder now if players will put wbc clauses in the contracts to prevent being picked or whatnot

wassagstdu
03-22-2006, 06:44 AM
It was great baseball, and I want to see more of it. Too bad someone can't broadcast Cuban baseball like they did in Chicago in the late '50s, or Japanese baseball. I would rather watch them than any ML team except the Sox.

..

Railsplitter
03-22-2006, 09:47 AM
Good idea, but a few flaws. I most international tournements, team in in the same bracket don't face each other in the first elimination round. The semis should have had the group 1 winner vs. the group 2 runner-up and vice versa.