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ondafarm
03-20-2006, 10:35 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-nationals-soriano&prov=ap&type=lgns

Alphonso Soriano refused to play left field for the Nationals in their game against the Dodgers. I've been following this guy since he was in Columbus AAA. I never thought he added much to a team's offense, was horribly used as a lead-off hitter and played well-below average defense.

beckett21
03-20-2006, 10:52 PM
What a team player.

Great move, Bowden. Looks like he is angling for the Knicks GM job next. :redneck

SOX ADDICT '73
03-20-2006, 10:57 PM
Caveat emptor.

(Dallas Cowboys, take note)

Trav
03-20-2006, 11:11 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-nationals-soriano&prov=ap&type=lgns

Alphonso Soriano refused to play left field for the Nationals in their game against the Dodgers. I've been following this guy since he was in Columbus AAA. I never thought he added much to a team's offense, was horribly used as a lead-off hitter and played well-below average defense.

You don't think that he adds much to a team's offense? Wow.

ondafarm
03-20-2006, 11:24 PM
You don't think that he adds much to a team's offense? Wow.

A lead-off man should be an on base machine and a disruptor. Hitting a home run leading off intimidates somewhat but does nothing to help your number 2, 3 and 4 hitters, which is how you get big innings. Soriano almost never walks, strikes out a lot and although he steals a few bases, he's more of a stealth guy doing it. Ever notice that Pods really disrupts the opposing pitcher? Soriano does none of this. His ability to score runs, something a lead-off hitter should excel at is no better than his number two hitter.

That's adding very little. I know he's popular in Rotiserre(fantasy) Leagues because his stats look good, but baseball is all about doing the little things right.

chisoxmike
03-20-2006, 11:31 PM
You know the Cubs are watching this situation unfold...

itsnotrequired
03-20-2006, 11:35 PM
You know the Cubs are watching this situation unfold...

Its the last piece they need for a 2006 championship puzzle!

:rolleyes:

Trav
03-20-2006, 11:38 PM
A lead-off man should be an on base machine and a disruptor. Hitting a home run leading off intimidates somewhat but does nothing to help your number 2, 3 and 4 hitters, which is how you get big innings. Soriano almost never walks, strikes out a lot and although he steals a few bases, he's more of a stealth guy doing it. Ever notice that Pods really disrupts the opposing pitcher? Soriano does none of this. His ability to score runs, something a lead-off hitter should excel at is no better than his number two hitter.

That's adding very little. I know he's popular in Rotiserre(fantasy) Leagues because his stats look good, but baseball is all about doing the little things right.

I understand that he isn't your typical leadoff hitter. I also understand that there are 20 other teams that don't have a leadoff hitter as good as he is. With that said, I wouldn't lead him off. I think he would be a great number 2. I think he hit there in NY with Jeter leading off. I could be wrong. Regardless, when you have a second baseman hitting with that kind of power no matter how bad he fields he is going to be an asset on offense.

doublem23
03-20-2006, 11:45 PM
A lead-off man should be an on base machine and a disruptor. Hitting a home run leading off intimidates somewhat but does nothing to help your number 2, 3 and 4 hitters, which is how you get big innings. Soriano almost never walks, strikes out a lot and although he steals a few bases, he's more of a stealth guy doing it. Ever notice that Pods really disrupts the opposing pitcher? Soriano does none of this. His ability to score runs, something a lead-off hitter should excel at is no better than his number two hitter.

That's adding very little. I know he's popular in Rotiserre(fantasy) Leagues because his stats look good, but baseball is all about doing the little things right.

I wouldn't want him as my lead-off hitter, either, but he could be a 3 or 4 on pretty much all but 4-5 MLB teams.

santo=dorf
03-20-2006, 11:49 PM
I understand that he isn't your typical leadoff hitter. I also understand that there are 20 other teams that don't have a leadoff hitter as good as he is. With that said, I wouldn't lead him off. I think he would be a great number 2. I think he hit there in NY with Jeter leading off. I could be wrong. Regardless, when you have a second baseman hitting with that kind of power no matter how bad he fields he is going to be an asset on offense.
How is he an assest to an offense with a .639 OPS on the road?
To put that in perspective, Willie Harris had a .647 OPS last season.

ondafarm
03-20-2006, 11:58 PM
I understand that he isn't your typical leadoff hitter. I also understand that there are 20 other teams that don't have a leadoff hitter as good as he is. With that said, I wouldn't lead him off. I think he would be a great number 2. I think he hit there in NY with Jeter leading off. I could be wrong. Regardless, when you have a second baseman hitting with that kind of power no matter how bad he fields he is going to be an asset on offense.

Second base is not a position that you should worry about homers.
It is an important defensive position, the most important for double plays.

If you do not know those two things, then you don't know baseball very well.
Soriano is not better than 20 other teams lead-off hitters.

He does hit a fair amount of flashy home runs, which has obviously impressed you.

StockdaleForVeep
03-21-2006, 12:12 AM
A lead-off man should be an on base machine and a disruptor. Hitting a home run leading off intimidates somewhat but does nothing to help your number 2, 3 and 4 hitters, which is how you get big innings. Soriano almost never walks, strikes out a lot and although he steals a few bases, he's more of a stealth guy doing it. Ever notice that Pods really disrupts the opposing pitcher? Soriano does none of this. His ability to score runs, something a lead-off hitter should excel at is no better than his number two hitter.

That's adding very little. I know he's popular in Rotiserre(fantasy) Leagues because his stats look good, but baseball is all about doing the little things right.

http://www.nndb.com/people/114/000031021/james-gammon-sized.jpg
"Every time you hit a ball in the air you owe me 20 pushups"

munchman33
03-21-2006, 01:49 AM
Soriano doesn't want to play left? If I'm Bowden, I say fine. There's nothing in his contract that says he has to play second. He's welcome to sit out the year and make none of that $10 million to play a game.

soxinem1
03-21-2006, 06:53 AM
Soriano doesn't want to play left? If I'm Bowden, I say fine. There's nothing in his contract that says he has to play second. He's welcome to sit out the year and make none of that $10 million to play a game.

I agree, I'd let him rot.

There have been may position switches in ML history, some work, some don't. Even though Carlton Fisk was very much against his being moved to the OF, he did it because he knew it was what his team wanted. Ernie Banks, Robin Yount, Dennis Eckersley are just a few who did and they remained All-Stars. Jim Thome is doing it this year on the White Sox and I have not heard him complain once.

I could care less how good of a hitter he is, if a player is a total brick (and a KO wiz to boot) on the field like Soriano and cannot get the hint that he serves his team better at another position, and won't even try or make an attempt for the good of his team, then he should be suspended.

The Critic
03-21-2006, 08:22 AM
Soriano doesn't want to play left? If I'm Bowden, I say fine. There's nothing in his contract that says he has to play second. He's welcome to sit out the year and make none of that $10 million to play a game.

I heard on ESPN All Night that the Nationals told him they're going to play him in LF again on Wednesday, and if he refuses to play that position again, they're going to petition to have him placed on the "disqualified" list. They consider his refusal to play to be breach of his contract, and I'd agree with that.

SoxSpeed22
03-21-2006, 08:42 AM
A lead-off man should be an on base machine and a disruptor. Hitting a home run leading off intimidates somewhat but does nothing to help your number 2, 3 and 4 hitters, which is how you get big innings. Soriano almost never walks, strikes out a lot and although he steals a few bases, he's more of a stealth guy doing it. Ever notice that Pods really disrupts the opposing pitcher? Soriano does none of this. His ability to score runs, something a lead-off hitter should excel at is no better than his number two hitter.

That's adding very little. I know he's popular in Rotiserre(fantasy) Leagues because his stats look good, but baseball is all about doing the little things right.http://msn.foxsports.com/fe/img/Writers/headshots/217.jpg"The hell it is. All those things are overratted."

D. TODD
03-21-2006, 09:44 AM
The Nationals are getting what they deserve. Soriano made it crystal clear that he did not want to play outfield. The Nats traded for him anyway and are now trying to force his hand. Sure, they have the right to sit him if he refuses, and hurt their overall team much as the Eagles did. The Eagles were blindsided by a new contract demand, but the Nats knew the situation and have chose to cause the problem by acquiring him when they knew he would fight a move to the outfield. Very Poor job by the Nationals! Even if he gives in and moves to the outfield it will have a negative effect on the team overall.

Baby Fisk
03-21-2006, 09:47 AM
The Nationals are getting what they deserve. Soriano made it crystal clear that he did not want to play outfield. The Nats traded for him anyway and are now trying to force his hand. Sure, they have the right to sit him if he refuses, and hurt their overall team much as the Eagles did. The Eagles were blindsided by a new contract demand, but the Nats knew the situation and have chose to cause the problem by acquiring him when they knew he would fight a move to the outfield. Very Poor job by the Nationals! Even if he gives in and moves to the outfield it will have a negative effect on the team overall.
Agreed. The Nationals were idiots in the first place.

Tekijawa
03-21-2006, 09:54 AM
You know the Cubs are watching this situation unfold...

If Soriano won't play the OF what makes you think he'll want to become a starting pitcher?

munchman33
03-21-2006, 10:12 AM
The Nationals are getting what they deserve. Soriano made it crystal clear that he did not want to play outfield. The Nats traded for him anyway and are now trying to force his hand. Sure, they have the right to sit him if he refuses, and hurt their overall team much as the Eagles did. The Eagles were blindsided by a new contract demand, but the Nats knew the situation and have chose to cause the problem by acquiring him when they knew he would fight a move to the outfield. Very Poor job by the Nationals! Even if he gives in and moves to the outfield it will have a negative effect on the team overall.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Soriano is one of the worst defensive second basemen in all of baseball. And now he's on the wrong side of 30. Nobody wants him at that salary playing second base. Nobody. Texas didn't want it either. The only way they were trading him was to a GM like Bowden willing to take a shot at forcing him to move. But he'd have to make that move anywhere else. If he refuses to play this season, he'll be making the move next year anyway.

itsnotrequired
03-21-2006, 10:21 AM
Agreed. The Nationals were idiots in the first place.

At least the Yankees were smart enough to talk to Jeter before they brought A-Rod in. Nationals took a chance and now they have to deal with what's going down.

munchman33
03-21-2006, 10:31 AM
At least the Yankees were smart enough to talk to Jeter before they brought A-Rod in. Nationals took a chance and now they have to deal with what's going down.

This is a completely different situation. Jeter wasn't asked to move.

Leading me to my other point. Soriano has a contract. And a big one at that. If the Nationals want him to pitch, I suggest he starts to learn a curveball.

Seriously, if one of you were transfered from your occupation, and they altered the duties of your job, would you get away with refusing? Soriano is free to quit major league baseball at anytime, just like we're free to quit our jobs if we don't like them. But if he expects to get paid, he should do what he's told, just like the rest of us.

Chicken Dinner
03-21-2006, 10:32 AM
t.o.

Baby Fisk
03-21-2006, 10:38 AM
This is a completely different situation. Jeter wasn't asked to move.

Leading me to my other point. Soriano has a contract. And a big one at that. If the Nationals want him to pitch, I suggest he starts to learn a curveball.

Seriously, if one of you were transfered from your occupation, and they altered the duties of your job, would you get away with refusing? Soriano is free to quit major league baseball at anytime, just like we're free to quit our jobs if we don't like them. But if he expects to get paid, he should do what he's told, just like the rest of us.
Moving an infielder to the outfield is not as simple as "altering the duties" of the job, it's asking him to move to an entirely new position. Should someone in Marketing quietly accept it if management suddenly decided to make them an Engineer or vice versa? I agree Soriano is being very inflexible, but he has every right to refuse this move. The Nationals didn't do their homework, now they are burned.

itsnotrequired
03-21-2006, 10:40 AM
This is a completely different situation. Jeter wasn't asked to move.

True, not the same situation but the Yankees at least recognized a potential issue with who would play SS and addressed it before they signed anyone. It seems more like the Nationals took a "let's get this bat and deal with where he plays later" attitude. I mean, it isn't like the Nationals would have signed Soriano if had stated he wouldn't switch positions.

Or maybe they would have, who knows...

D. TODD
03-21-2006, 10:57 AM
This is a completely different situation. Jeter wasn't asked to move.

Leading me to my other point. Soriano has a contract. And a big one at that. If the Nationals want him to pitch, I suggest he starts to learn a curveball.

Seriously, if one of you were transfered from your occupation, and they altered the duties of your job, would you get away with refusing? Soriano is free to quit major league baseball at anytime, just like we're free to quit our jobs if we don't like them. But if he expects to get paid, he should do what he's told, just like the rest of us. But Soriano is not free to go get another job in the same profession at another company at his old position if he quit like I would be. If he could he probably would quit, or take the position transfer and work halfass until he was let go. The Nats have created a bad situation for theirself.

D. TODD
03-21-2006, 11:03 AM
Soriano could be a better team first guy, but management went out and got him knowing he would not play another position. Now they say take it or leave it. He will be a disgruntled employee and that won't be good for the company.

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 11:26 AM
I think this was dumb by the Nats to acquire Soriano without obtaining at least some notion from him that he'd switch. I understand the Yanks had the Jeter-ARod situation already discussed before they finalized the deal.


I may be biased against Soriano. He came thru a program in Japan in which he was a grade A jerk to all the Japanese who made efforts to assist him. He would only eat food which he recognized and he would only take coaching in Spanish, as opposed to English, which is hard enough for Japanese.

Rooney4Prez56
03-21-2006, 11:58 AM
I heard on ESPN All Night that the Nationals told him they're going to play him in LF again on Wednesday, and if he refuses to play that position again, they're going to petition to have him placed on the "disqualified" list. They consider his refusal to play to be breach of his contract, and I'd agree with that.

If you can't be a team player, don't play on the team.

Trav
03-21-2006, 12:22 PM
Farm, I realize his defensive shortcomings but that isn't what was being talked about. You said he didn't bring anything to the table offensively. A statement that you admit was because you don't like him personally. The fact is, he is a major offensive threat.

And Dorf, please look up what he hits against right handed pitching on the first Thursday of every month. At night. Take that along with the OPS on the road and throw it out the window. Look at his AVG, HR and SB. Not bad huh?
Especially coming from the 2B spot.

Slats
03-21-2006, 12:40 PM
Look at his AVG, HR and SB. Not bad huh?


Look at his fingers. How many world series rings? zero
He doesn't have what it takes to be a winner in a team sport.

palehozenychicty
03-21-2006, 12:48 PM
In my mind, Bowden is a fool for making the trade in the first place. He called Soriano's bluff, they went to arbitration, and now this..........embarrassing.

Hangar18
03-21-2006, 12:52 PM
You know the silent underlying story in all of this is? Washingtons GM WISELY has said he will have him DISQUALIFIED, so that he wont get paid and be suspended. When he made those comments, he pointed them DIRECTLY at a certain GM 8 miles north, who has been lighting up his cellphone nonstop the last few weeks, offering a package of garbage minor-leaguers for Soriano. "Were not just going to give him away". Good for them.

Trav
03-21-2006, 12:58 PM
Look at his fingers. How many world series rings? zero
He doesn't have what it takes to be a winner in a team sport.

What are you talking about? Something different than the topic at hand. Go back and read ondafarm's post about not being impressed with his offensive numbers and comment on that. I never said he was a winner. I never said I wanted him on the Sox. I never said that he was a good lead off hitter. I said that I would bat him in the number 2 hole and be very impressed by the numbers coming from my 2B. I never said he was good defensively, either.

StepsInSC
03-21-2006, 01:01 PM
Look at his fingers. How many world series rings? zero
He doesn't have what it takes to be a winner in a team sport.

So your premise is this: "All ballplayers without World Series rings do not have what it takes to be a winner in a team sport?"

You sure you want to advance that?

kittle42
03-21-2006, 01:12 PM
So your premise is this: "All ballplayers without World Series rings do not have what it takes to be a winner in a team sport?"

You sure you want to advance that?

Exactly. That argument does not have much merit.

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 01:12 PM
. . . The fact is, he is a major offensive threat. . .

A guy who bats lead-off but doesn't get on base very well at all (Konerko has a higher OBP) doesn't assist producing big innings and doesn't score a lot of runs isn't an offensive threat.

Three run homers or big innings break games open, not lead-off homers. Steals themselves are overrated, its the requirement to adjust the defense against steals which disrupts the defense and causes big innings.

If you are so shallow that you think Soriano's numbers make him a major offensive threat then welcome to Crazy Carl's 98%.

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 01:15 PM
So your premise is this: "All ballplayers without World Series rings do not have what it takes to be a winner in a team sport?"

You sure you want to advance that?

With how long he played on the Yankee$, I would take his lack of rings as solid evidence.

Trav
03-21-2006, 01:17 PM
A guy who bats lead-off but doesn't get on base very well at all (Konerko has a higher OBP) doesn't assist producing big innings and doesn't score a lot of runs isn't an offensive threat.

Three run homers or big innings break games open, not lead-off homers. Steals themselves are overrated, its the requirement to adjust the defense against steals which disrupts the defense and causes big innings.

If you are so shallow that you think Soriano's numbers make him a major offensive threat then welcome to Crazy Carl's 98%.

You must be pretty deep to be able to overlook 105 RBIs.

Again, you must have missed me saying that he isn't as good of a hitter as he was in the number 2 hole.

StepsInSC
03-21-2006, 01:20 PM
With how long he played on the Yankee$, I would take his lack of rings as solid evidence.

Three years?

Trav
03-21-2006, 01:26 PM
He played with the yankees in 1999 and 2000. I'm guessing he has two rings even though he didn't play full seasons.

Mickster
03-21-2006, 01:34 PM
Farm, I realize his defensive shortcomings but that isn't what was being talked about. You said he didn't bring anything to the table offensively. A statement that you admit was because you don't like him personally. The fact is, he is a major offensive threat.

And Dorf, please look up what he hits against right handed pitching on the first Thursday of every month. At night. Take that along with the OPS on the road and throw it out the window. Look at his AVG, HR and SB. Not bad huh?
Especially coming from the 2B spot.


This is precisely why he does not want to move to another position. Soriano's numbers playing 2B make him a $12M/yr second baseman. Soriano's numbers in LF do not.

Trav
03-21-2006, 01:37 PM
This is precisely why he does not want to move to another position. Soriano's numbers playing 2B make him a $12M/yr second baseman. Soriano's numbers in LF do not.

It wouldn't suprise me if that was the reason.

VenturaFan23
03-21-2006, 01:47 PM
http://www.nndb.com/people/114/000031021/james-gammon-sized.jpg
"Every time you hit a ball in the air you owe me 20 pushups"

"Aw, forget that crap! Put the ball on the ground!"

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 01:50 PM
You must be pretty deep to be able to overlook 105 RBIs.

Again, you must have missed me saying that he isn't as good of a hitter as he was in the number 2 hole.

Considering that he batted fifth or sixth last year for the Rangers for the team which scored 865 runs then 104 RBIs isn't particularly impressive. Not in that ballpark, not with that line-up.

Soriano would be a disaster in the number two hole, he strikes out far too often.

Efficient RBI men have fewer strikeouts than RBIs, of the top ten RBI men in the AL only three had more strikeouts than RBIs and only one Sexson of Seattle had as bad a K rate to RBI. I don't count Sexson as a premiere RBI guy. For example, Konerko had 109Ks to 100 RBIs; not maximaly effiecient but acceptable in a down year for him. Frank Thomas had nine straight more RBIs than strikeout years, Soriano has never had one, not even close.

Soriano isn't a good lead-off man, isn't a good RBI man, isn't talented at moving runners up, and isn't adept at scoring runs ergo, he has no offesnive value.

Stats are useful, but you can get buried in them. You've gone bird bath deep and are gasping for air already.

patbooyah
03-21-2006, 02:00 PM
Soriano isn't a good lead-off man, isn't a good RBI man, isn't talented at moving runners up, and isn't adept at scoring runs ergo, he has no offesnive value.

Stats are useful, but you can get buried in them. You've gone bird bath deep and are gasping for air already.

yes, but there is one thing stats can't measure: soriano's hardworking, agreeable nature

christ. what a douchebag. if i was getting 10mil/a year, i would do whatever the **** my employer wanted. especially if i was an average hitter and an average defender.

EDIT: i'm so excited to see soriano's numbers plunge in DC. it's a much different ballpark than the palace in arlington

Trav
03-21-2006, 02:08 PM
Considering that he batted fifth or sixth last year for the Rangers for the team which scored 865 runs then 104 RBIs isn't particularly impressive. Not in that ballpark, not with that line-up.

Soriano would be a disaster in the number two hole, he strikes out far too often.

Efficient RBI men have fewer strikeouts than RBIs, of the top ten RBI men in the AL only three had more strikeouts than RBIs and only one Sexson of Seattle had as bad a K rate to RBI. I don't count Sexson as a premiere RBI guy. For example, Konerko had 109Ks to 100 RBIs; not maximaly effiecient but acceptable in a down year for him. Frank Thomas had nine straight more RBIs than strikeout years, Soriano has never had one, not even close.

Soriano isn't a good lead-off man, isn't a good RBI man, isn't talented at moving runners up, and isn't adept at scoring runs ergo, he has no offesnive value.

Stats are useful, but you can get buried in them. You've gone bird bath deep and are gasping for air already.

It seems to me that you are the one getting too deep in stats. I quoted his RBIs and you come back at me with the best hitter in the 90's K to RBI rate? You are showing your personall bias.

Face it, his 30-2 SB/CS ratio was excellent, even if it is deceptive. His 100 RBI was awesome for a 2B. And his AVG was right about average for 2B in the league. No matter the lineup, no matter the ballpark, Soriano is a good offensive 2B. Even if he is a jerk.

I question your theory when it comes to batting in the number 2 hole. Not with Soriano but with Iguchi or anyone who is hitting behind a base stealer for that matter. Iguchi had a high number of k's because he was trying to give Pods the most chances to steal that he could. He was hitting out of a two strike hole, kind of. It seems to me that most number 2 guys would have a high number of k's. Is that consistant with the rest of the league?

California Sox
03-21-2006, 02:09 PM
And Dorf, please look up what he hits against right handed pitching on the first Thursday of every month. At night. Take that along with the OPS on the road and throw it out the window. Look at his AVG, HR and SB. Not bad huh?
Especially coming from the 2B spot.


But his road numbers do matter when he plays in a launching pad in Texas and he's moving to a horrible hitters' park in RFK. I think Soriano's an impressive fantasy player but he's a hard player to love when you watch him. He's so brutal at 2b that he makes Robinson Cano look like a gold glover and there are scouts who believe he'll be even worse in LF. Plus, he's a guy who piles up a lot of stats against bad pitching but if you make your pitches, he's out. Not exactly the cornerstone of a championship club.

But the most important issue, and I think everyone is in agreement here, he can't refuse to play a position. Particularly in spring training. If he goes out there and is a disaster, that's one thing. But to not even give it a try? Come on.

If Washington puts him on the disqualified list, they save $10 million. That's money they can use to pick up a contract during the season. I'd let him rot.

munchman33
03-21-2006, 02:09 PM
But Soriano is not free to go get another job in the same profession at another company at his old position if he quit like I would be. If he could he probably would quit, or take the position transfer and work halfass until he was let go. The Nats have created a bad situation for theirself.

That's not true. There are plenty of other baseball leagues to play second base in. But if he wants to play for the MLB, he'll have to abide.

munchman33
03-21-2006, 02:11 PM
Moving an infielder to the outfield is not as simple as "altering the duties" of the job, it's asking him to move to an entirely new position. Should someone in Marketing quietly accept it if management suddenly decided to make them an Engineer or vice versa? I agree Soriano is being very inflexible, but he has every right to refuse this move. The Nationals didn't do their homework, now they are burned.

Please. It's not as drastic a change as you make it seem. To go from marketing to an engineer requires years of study at a university. To switch positions on a baseball field requires far less. Especially since Soriano has played left field before. And was more than adequate.

Trav
03-21-2006, 02:13 PM
But the most important issue, and I think everyone is in agreement here, he can't refuse to play a position. Particularly in spring training. If he goes out there and is a disaster, that's one thing. But to not even give it a try? Come on.



Which makes the point about not being a $10 million a year OF all the more valid, as pointed out by Mickster.

patbooyah
03-21-2006, 02:14 PM
But Soriano is not free to go get another job in the same profession at another company at his old position if he quit like I would be. If he could he probably would quit.


and you're overlooking a couple of things here. soriano signed a contract.

he could be terrible at his job and still be paid. a ton. i'm guessing you wouldn't be.

contracts go both ways.

patbooyah
03-21-2006, 02:15 PM
Which makes the point about not being a $10 million a year OF all the more valid, as pointed out by Mickster.

that is exactly it. soriano wants an arbitration panel to compare him to other second basemen, not other outfielders.

Ol' No. 2
03-21-2006, 02:17 PM
It seems to me that you are the one getting too deep in stats. I quoted his RBIs and you come back at me with the best hitter in the 90's K to RBI rate? You are showing your personall bias.

Face it, his 30-2 SB/CS ratio was excellent, even if it is deceptive. His 100 RBI was awesome for a 2B. And his AVG was right about average for 2B in the league. No matter the lineup, no matter the ballpark, Soriano is a good offensive 2B. Even if he is a jerk.

I question your theory when it comes to batting in the number 2 hole. Not with Soriano but with Iguchi or anyone who is hitting behind a base stealer for that matter. Iguchi had a high number of k's because he was trying to give Pods the most chances to steal that he could. He was hitting out of a two strike hole, kind of. It seems to me that most number 2 guys would have a high number of k's. Is that consistant with the rest of the league?Trouble is, he's not even average defensively at 2B (and I'm being charitable). Mickster hit this right on the head. Soriano knows he's a pretty good hitter for a 2B, but for a LF he's nothing special. That's why he doesn't want to move to LF.

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 02:20 PM
Last I'm posting here.

Great stats, lousy defense in an up the middle position. I'd want him Rotissere, wouldn't touch him real world.

spawn
03-21-2006, 02:29 PM
Haven't rad the other posts, so if this has been said before, I apologize. Soriano is a selfish you-know-what for not wanting to play the outfield. That said, I blame Bowden for this mess. He obviously didn't do his homework before acquiring him. He obviously didn't know about Soriano's steadfast refusal to play in the outfield before trading for him. And if he did, even worse. And on top of that, do you really want this guy playing the outfield if he feels he's being forced to? He needs to trade him while he still has some trade value left.

D. TODD
03-21-2006, 02:54 PM
Haven't rad the other posts, so if this has been said before, I apologize. Soriano is a selfish you-know-what for not wanting to play the outfield. That said, I blame Bowden for this mess. He obviously didn't do his homework before acquiring him. He obviously didn't know about Soriano's steadfast refusal to play in the outfield before trading for him. And if he did, even worse. And on top of that, do you really want this guy playing the outfield if he feels he's being forced to? He needs to trade him while he still has some trade value left. Bowden defiantly knew. The whole baseball world knew. Soriano made it very public if you plan on playing him in the outfield don't bring him in. The Yanks, and Rangers would have kept him if he was open to changing positions. I'm no Soriano fan, he is selfish and has many a flaw in his talented game, but when you let employers know what you won't do and they bring you in anyway well screw them, they knew what they were buying. The Rangers would have a legit beef in my opinion, not the Nationals. The Nats will trade him or let him play 2nd or they are stupid for giving up players for a guy they won't even put on the roster for not doing something he told the whole world he wouldn't do. I agree, if he is forced into left field it may be worse, He will half ass it until he is switched back to 2nd or traded, while being a constant thorn in the organizations side. This is your mess Bowden you knew the employees demands before you owed him a penny and you chose to bring him in and flex your muscles.

Frater Perdurabo
03-21-2006, 04:14 PM
I have mixed feelings on Soriano.

First, the positive: In September 2004, I received "commissioners box" tickets to see the Rangers host the White Sox in Arlington. I literally was in the front row, next to the photographers' pit which is next to the Rangers' first-base home dugout. I brought Ben, the eight year-old son of a good friend of mine, with me to the game. It was Ben's first MLB game. At the end of the top of the ninth inning (the Sox won the game), Soriano made the third putout. As he was returning to the dugout, Soriano tossed the ball to Ben. As could be expected, Ben became a Soriano fan for life. Ben also immediately identified with Soriano because of the skin pigmentation that he and Soriano share (even though Ben is African-American and Soriano is Dominican). Soriano clearly took an interest in promoting a young fan's interest in baseball.
:thumbsup:

Next, the negative: As has been reported ad infinitum above, Soriano is an all-hit, no field player, who is a true second baseman in his mind only, who doesn't use his speed on the basepaths and is neither patient nor selective at the plate. His lack of defensive skills clearly call for him to play left field or even DH. He also has now demonstrated a piss-poor attitude about playing as a member of a team. Contrast that with someone like Michael Young, who moved from his more natural position of second base to make room for Soriano, who similarly insisted that he must play second base when he came to the Rangers. Young re-dedicated himself to re-learning shortstop and his efforts paid off with a Gold Glove while Soriano kept to himself, continued to swing at bad pitches, hit a good number of homers, and remained a butcher in the field.
:tsk:

I have to give Soriano credit for taking the initiative to make a nice gesture to a young fan. I'm certain the incident I witnessed wasn't the only time he's done such a nice thing. Baseball needs much more of that. But baseball doesn't need the crap he's pulling in Washington. Shame on Washington for not doing their homework, but shame on Soriano for being such a putz to the rest of his teammates and the organization. I wouldn't want him on the White Sox, but if he was, Ozzie would have beaten the snot out of him right there in the dugout the moment he decided not to take the field.

ondafarm
03-21-2006, 06:23 PM
I have mixed feelings on Soriano.

First, the positive: In September 2004, I received "commissioners box" tickets to see the Rangers host the White Sox in Arlington. I literally was in the front row, next to the photographers' pit which is next to the Rangers' first-base home dugout. I brought Ben, the eight year-old son of a good friend of mine, with me to the game. It was Ben's first MLB game. At the end of the top of the ninth inning (the Sox won the game), Soriano made the third putout. As he was returning to the dugout, Soriano tossed the ball to Ben. As could be expected, Ben became a Soriano fan for life. Ben also immediately identified with Soriano because of the skin pigmentation that he and Soriano share (even though Ben is African-American and Soriano is Dominican). Soriano clearly took an interest in promoting a young fan's interest in baseball.
:thumbsup:

Next, the negative: As has been reported ad infinitum above, Soriano is an all-hit, no field player, who is a true second baseman in his mind only, who doesn't use his speed on the basepaths and is neither patient nor selective at the plate. His lack of defensive skills clearly call for him to play left field or even DH. He also has now demonstrated a piss-poor attitude about playing as a member of a team. Contrast that with someone like Michael Young, who moved from his more natural position of second base to make room for Soriano, who similarly insisted that he must play second base when he came to the Rangers. Young re-dedicated himself to re-learning shortstop and his efforts paid off with a Gold Glove while Soriano kept to himself, continued to swing at bad pitches, hit a good number of homers, and remained a butcher in the field.
:tsk:

I have to give Soriano credit for taking the initiative to make a nice gesture to a young fan. I'm certain the incident I witnessed wasn't the only time he's done such a nice thing. Baseball needs much more of that. But baseball doesn't need the crap he's pulling in Washington. Shame on Washington for not doing their homework, but shame on Soriano for being such a putz to the rest of his teammates and the organization. I wouldn't want him on the White Sox, but if he was, Ozzie would have beaten the snot out of him right there in the dugout the moment he decided not to take the field.

Good post!

Brian26
03-21-2006, 09:46 PM
Shame on Washington for not doing their homework, but shame on Soriano for being such a putz to the rest of his teammates and the organization. I wouldn't want him on the White Sox, but if he was, Ozzie would have beaten the snot out of him right there in the dugout the moment he decided not to take the field.

I can't really take sides either way, but it sure is uncomfortable reading about what happened, isn't it? I'd like to see the guy take the field for the sake of his teammates.

WSox8404
03-21-2006, 11:07 PM
Its the last piece they need for a 2006 championship puzzle!

:rolleyes:

I thought that Wade Miller was that piece!

PKalltheway
03-21-2006, 11:34 PM
Geez this situation is pathetic. Yes the Nationals were VERY stupid for bringing in Soriano knowing he didn't want to play the outfield. What's done is done though. Soriano needs to just shut the hell up and play the outfield.

kraut83
03-22-2006, 11:11 AM
Apparently, Soriano had a "change of heart" after talking to his agent & his wife, and will be starting in LF for the Nats today.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060322&content_id=1358953&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I'm sure this has everything to do with what's best for his team, and nothing to do with his bank account.

Ol' No. 2
03-22-2006, 11:15 AM
Apparently, Soriano had a "change of heart" after talking to his agent & his wife, and will be starting in LF for the Nats today.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060322&content_id=1358953&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I'm sure this has everything to do with what's best for his team, and nothing to do with his bank account.Or the fact that he would not be eligible for FA in 2007 if he didn't play a full season.

Hangar18
03-22-2006, 11:21 AM
Or the fact that he would not be eligible for FA in 2007 if he didn't play a full season.

Good eye Ol No. 2, I didnt realize that. Looks like the $$$$$$$$$ talked
and he listened. Good for the Nats for not behaving like a minor-league team (Marlins/Pirates) and just giving the guy away. Jim Hendry is pissed now, having slept in a garbage-filled dumpster the last few weeks thinking Soriano was going to be tossed in there, hahhahaah.

itsnotrequired
03-22-2006, 11:28 AM
Jim Hendry is pissed now, having slept in a garbage-filled dumpster the last few weeks thinking Soriano was going to be tossed in there, hahhahaah.

:rolling:

Frater Perdurabo
03-22-2006, 11:32 AM
Jim Hendry is pissed now, having slept in a garbage-filled dumpster the last few weeks thinking Soriano was going to be tossed in there, hahhahaah.

:roflmao: :rolling:

soxfanatlanta
03-22-2006, 11:57 AM
Or the fact that he would not be eligible for FA in 2007 if he didn't play a full season.

You mean to say that Soriano was not going to have a long, prosperous career with the Nats?

FedEx227
03-22-2006, 02:06 PM
This is going to be great, I suggest all NL teams work on getting fly balls out to LF and watch Fonzi and his rock glove attempt to shag em.