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White Sox Randy
03-20-2006, 03:46 PM
It would have been nice if Kenny would have gone out and just gotten one quality lefty instead of subjecting everyone to this embarrassment of lefties.

It reminds me of someone that buys the cheapest product in order to save money and when that breaks, they go out and spend just a little more to get some better crap and they keep wasting their money until they finally realize that they should have just spent the money the first time to buy the right thing.

The Sox are still going to need a REAL lefty reliever after this guy Thornton costs them some games. C'mon Kenny you built a fabulous team, don't cheap off on the last component or two.

Tekijawa
03-20-2006, 03:49 PM
Where did this come from, we got something for a guy who was going to get CUT... If this guy works out then fine, if not we basically lost nothing... I don't think our season will hinge on a lefty that will throw 35 innings tops in a season anyway... WHO CARES!?!?!?!

SoxFan78
03-20-2006, 03:50 PM
It would have been nice if Kenny would have gone out and just gotten one quality lefty instead of subjecting everyone to this embarrassment of lefties.

It reminds me of someone that buys the cheapest product in order to save money and when that breaks, they go out and spend just a little more to get some better crap and they keep wasting their money until they finally realize that they should have just spent the money the first time to buy the right thing.

The Sox are still going to need a REAL lefty reliever after this guy Thornton costs them some games. C'mon Kenny you built a fabulous team, don't cheap off on the last component or two.

So tell me what lefty relievers was Kenny Willams too cheap to get during the offseason??

kittle42
03-20-2006, 03:52 PM
So tell me what lefty relievers was Kenny Willams too cheap to get during the offseason??

Seriously...they ain't falling off trees out there.

fquaye149
03-20-2006, 03:55 PM
So tell me what lefty relievers was Kenny Willams too cheap to get during the offseason??

Lol...I think he's salty we miiiiiissed out on Scott Eyre

SOXPHILE
03-20-2006, 03:56 PM
http://home.clara.net/suspark/mack3.jpg

"Now, you need to sit down, and take a deep breath...mmmmkay ?"

White Sox Randy
03-20-2006, 04:00 PM
How did he get Mackowiack ? How did he get Cintron ? How did he get Vazquez ? How did he get Thome ?

He just figured that some lefty would magically appear and pitch well enough. Well the Sox are pretty bare now in the pitching department after our Major league top 10. The few serious pitching prospects that we have left are a ways away.

Also, KW could have gone overseas to find someone like he did with Iguchi and Takatsu. I just think that the position is too important to leave to chance if you are really trying to repeat - especially with ??? about Jenks and Hermanson.

SoxFan78
03-20-2006, 04:02 PM
How did he get Mackowiack ? How did he get Cintron ? How did he get Vazquez ? How did he get Thome ?

He just figured that some lefty would magically appear and pitch well enough. Well the Sox are pretty bare now in the pitching department after our Major league top 10. The few serious pitching prospects that we have left are a ways away.

Also, KW could have gone overseas to find someone like he did with Iguchi and Takatsu. I just think that the position is too important to leave to chance if you are really trying to repeat - especially with ??? about Jenks and Hermanson.

You still havent answered my question. What lefty relievers was KW too cheap to get???????

RoobarbPie
03-20-2006, 04:04 PM
So tell me what lefty relievers was Kenny Willams too cheap to get during the offseason??
Agreed. It seems like most teams are looking for LH relief right now. There's not much available, especially reliable options...

russ99
03-20-2006, 04:06 PM
Agreed. It seems like most teams are looking for LH relief right now. There's not much available, especially reliable options...

Those reliable options are very expensive options too. Unless you're the Yankees and can drop $6M for a LOOGY.

Tekijawa
03-20-2006, 04:09 PM
Also, KW could have gone overseas to find someone like he did with Iguchi and Takatsu. I just think that the position is too important to leave to chance if you are really trying to repeat - especially with ??? about Jenks and Hermanson.

I bet KW forgot to look overseas for a pitcher... Try emailing him and reminding him!

RedHeadPaleHoser
03-20-2006, 04:11 PM
Wow...off the ledge Randy.....name three LEGIT lefties available in the offseason that are healthy enough to be traded for or were FA's.....we're all waiting to see what you come up with...

Iwritecode
03-20-2006, 04:20 PM
You need to change your sig. Please choose from the following:

:chickenlittle

:darkclouds:

:darkcloud:

White Sox Randy
03-20-2006, 04:25 PM
I don't want to hear you guys crying when the bullpen blows up. This is the one area that has a chance to derail the Sox chances this year.

Let's see: what veteran lefties switched teams this year.... Steve Kline, Arthur Rhodes, Ray King, Scott Eyre, Ron Villone, Ricardo Rincon....to name a few.

I won't even mention Billy Wagner and B.J. Ryan.

Besides, we don't necessarily need a lefty. We need another quality relief pitcher.

When Hermies done for the year and if Jenks busts, we've got big problems.

lumpyspun
03-20-2006, 04:33 PM
http://billyjoel.8k.com/covers/stormfront.jpg

White Sox Randy
03-20-2006, 04:34 PM
Wow...off the ledge Randy.....name three LEGIT lefties available in the offseason that are healthy enough to be traded for or were FA's.....we're all waiting to see what you come up with...


You guys are kind of quiet now. Did you get confused by the facts ?

Baby Fisk
03-20-2006, 04:35 PM
You guys are kind of quiet now. Did you get confused by the facts ?What's the point of this tirade?

soxfan26
03-20-2006, 04:36 PM
What's the point of this tirade?

White Sox Randy = :LTP??

kevin57
03-20-2006, 04:57 PM
I think KW was hoping (not unreasonably) that one of the many lefties that have been trying out in ST would emerge as a good possibility. Granted, that strategy has been a disappointment, but I don't think it was a question of him being too cheap. Sox payroll has been more than respectable of late.

Fuller_Schettman
03-20-2006, 05:06 PM
Randy, the White Sox have this guy Cooper or Copper or somesuch. He has sort of made a reputation for himself with his gifting: He has the special power to take a pitcher's mechanics and change them to maximize the pitcher's ability using his already existing talents (see Jenks, Robert. also Garland, Jon. also Contreras, Jose.)

You see, before the Sox even consider acquiring a pitcher, this Copper fellow performs an intense and thorough analysis of the mechanics of any target acquisition. He looks for subtle flaws and nuances that with a little tinkering and a lot of work can be either improved upon or eliminated. He gives his assessment to the General Manager- basically saying "I can fix this guy" or "I can't do nuttin' wid 'em"

The General Manager then acts accordingly.

Let simmer for 6 months and VOILA! you have a really neat new piece of jewelry.

Hey, it beats waiting for coal to harden...

AuroraSoxFan
03-20-2006, 05:06 PM
So maybe there are a few questions in the pen (McCarthy, Hermanson, Jenks). They won't all suck. McCarthy and Jenks have the ability to do awesome out there. We got Cotts and Pollitte too. And if needed we can always grab a pen guy in midseason off a last place team. Plus keep in mind we got 5 workhorse starters who can throw 6-7 innings on most of their outings. Breathe folks.

Chisox003
03-20-2006, 05:10 PM
White Sox Randy = :LTP??

Close, but actually White Sox Randy = :dtroll:

One in the same, I suppose. He's seriously annoying though.

mjharrison72
03-20-2006, 05:12 PM
Let's see: what veteran lefties switched teams this year.... Steve Kline, Arthur Rhodes, Ray King, Scott Eyre, Ron Villone, Ricardo Rincon....to name a few.

I won't even mention Billy Wagner and B.J. Ryan.
I am SO freaking glad we didn't waste money on Ryan like the Jays did. They paid at least twice what he was worth, and I, for one, am glad KW wasn't in the running for him.
Those other names you threw out there don't really impress me. I'd rather see the Sox let a few guys fight it out in Spring Training, then leave the cupboard stocked in the minors, just in case, than to go out and spend a lot of money for an overpriced lefty.
Trust Kenny, trust Coop, trust Ozzie. They know what they're doing. At least I hope so. :wink:

Hoffdaddydmb
03-20-2006, 05:12 PM
So how does adding one guy lead to a "collection" of worthless lefties? Last time I checked Cotts sure wasn't worthless.

Tekijawa
03-20-2006, 05:43 PM
I may be wrong but Don't we have 6 starters of which one could bring some serious Bull pen help back in a trade if the need should arise down the road?

Also don't forget that all 5 starters pitched over 200 innings each last year that's close to 1100 innings in a season that has around 1458 innings each year... 358 innings will be left up to Cotts, Polite, Jenks and McCarthy... I'm not worried in the least bit about this "hole".

soxinem1
03-20-2006, 05:46 PM
Thornton is one of those guys who took awhile to get to the bigs, then got lit up. Real good FB, no control, too many hangers.

To get a major league arm, though he's no kid, for a guy who, despite a nice Spring, was not in their plans (and was risked to be lost for nothing) I guess it's an okay move, but I think Logan deserve(s) a roster slot.

santo=dorf
03-20-2006, 05:48 PM
I don't want to hear you guys crying when the bullpen blows up. This is the one area that has a chance to derail the Sox chances this year.

Let's see: what veteran lefties switched teams this year.... Steve Kline, Arthur Rhodes, Ray King, Scott Eyre, Ron Villone, Ricardo Rincon....to name a few.

I won't even mention Billy Wagner and B.J. Ryan.

Kline: Atrocious, expensive and bad attitude.
Rhodes: Like Cleveland was ever going to trade him to us, and Philly acquired a LHP for a reason. They, like just about every other team in the MLB, needed a LHP for their bullpen.
King: Bad attitude. My Cardinals fans buddies speak of him in the same way we spoke of Marte.
Eyre: His agent said all 30 teams asked about him, and Eyre has been quoted that Jim "I love overpaying for mediocre players" Hendry gave him more money than he was expecting. The guy obviously doesn't like the White Sox, and he's coming off his only great season.
Villone: Give me a break. Last season he was terrible with the Marlins after somehow fluking a great ERA with his typical high ass WHIP when he was with the Mariners.
Rincon: Villone-K's-a few less runs with the same high WHIP.


:threadsucks

BeviBall!
03-20-2006, 05:51 PM
Wow. Just wow. Never mind the huge increase in payroll to better a World Champion team. My god, we're not going to turn into Yankme fans are we? Complaining about every little thing?

Nothing is going to stop me from basking in the glow of this championship all season... I don't care if we traded for Robocop Thronton.

Ol' No. 2
03-20-2006, 06:09 PM
Decent LH pitchers are the scarcest commodity in baseball. Half the LH relievers in MLB wouldn't get past AA if they were right-handed. Get a grip. Better lay in a big supply of these. The season hasn't even started yet.

:prozac:

A. Cavatica
03-20-2006, 06:10 PM
Largest collection of worthless lefties since...the Politburo. (rimshot)

Thank you folks, I'll be here all season!
:D:

INSox56
03-20-2006, 06:31 PM
Largest collection of worthless lefties since...the Politburo. (rimshot)

Thank you folks, I'll be here all season!
:D:


HAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NICE

Lip Man 1
03-20-2006, 06:42 PM
From White Sox.com:


The White Sox could break camp with lefties Neal Cotts, Boone Logan and Thornton in their bullpen.
"That's one scenario, and probably the leading scenario right now," Williams said. "With each day that goes by and each time I hear Dustin Hermanson talk about retirement and injury and getting through the season ... it just makes me think that we may need to start him on the disabled list at the very least to insure that mentally and physically he's ultimately ready to compete at the level in which we all saw him compete last year. This may require more discussion, but that's where we are right now."

I agree to an extent with the concern being voiced about the bullpen. There are some questions there and based on Williams comments you don't know if he'll be making another deal or not. I think having both Boone (although he looked impressive again today) and Thornton on the roster is a risk and coupled with Hermanson status could lead to problems.

I still hope the reports of the Sox looking at Villareal and Cruz are true and that Kenny can pick up one of them, just in case.

That would make the bullpen:

McCarthy - Middle and Long Relief
Politte - Set Up Man
Cotts - Set Up Man
Jenks - Closer
Villareal or Cruz - Middle and Long Relief (like Viz was last season)
Thornton or Boone - Second situational lefty

Oh before everyone thinks the Sox can't or won't go with three left handers in the bullpen, remember 1990? Jeff Torborg had Scott Radinsky, Wayne Edwards and Ken Patterson. All did well and coupled with three right handers in Bobby Thigpen, Barry Jones and Donn Pall gave the Sox the deepest and best bullpen in MLB.

Lip

Chisox003
03-20-2006, 06:46 PM
From White Sox.com:


The White Sox could break camp with lefties Neal Cotts, Boone Logan and Thornton in their bullpen.
"That's one scenario, and probably the leading scenario right now," Williams said. "With each day that goes by and each time I hear Dustin Hermanson talk about retirement and injury and getting through the season ... it just makes me think that we may need to start him on the disabled list at the very least to insure that mentally and physically he's ultimately ready to compete at the level in which we all saw him compete last year. This may require more discussion, but that's where we are right now."

I agree to an extent with the concern being voiced about the bullpen. There are some questions there and based on Williams comments you don't know if he'll be making another deal or not. I think having both Boone (although he looked impressive again today) and Thornton on the roster is a risk and coupled with Hermanson status could lead to problems.

I still hope the reports of the Sox looking at Villareal and Cruz are true and that Kenny can pick up one of them, just in case.

That would make the bullpen:

McCarthy - Middle and Long Relief
Politte - Set Up Man
Cotts - Set Up Man
Jenks - Closer
Villareal or Cruz - Middle and Long Relief (like Viz was last season)
Thornton or Boone - Second situational lefty

Oh before everyone thinks the Sox can't or won't go with three left handers in the bullpen, remember 1990? Jeff Torborg had Scott Radinsky, Wayne Edwards and Ken Patterson. All did well and couple with three right handers in Bobby Thigpen, Barry Jones and Donn Pall gave the Sox the deepest and best bullpen in MLB.

Lip
Honestly, I don't care which arm they throw with, as long as they get people out.

All the focus on lefty/righty matchups reminds me too much of Mr. Tinker.

JohnBasedowYoda
03-20-2006, 07:09 PM
Largest collection of worthless lefties since...the Politburo. (rimshot)

Thank you folks, I'll be here all season!
:D:

Holy God. I haven't laughed so hard since I've seen Spaceballs for the 1st time.

TomBradley72
03-20-2006, 09:13 PM
The lefty thing isn't the main thing with this bullpen...it's replacing all the innings and production of Hermanson and Vizcaino from 2005. Basically we're counting on McCarthy/Jenks/Redding(?) to replace Vizcaino/Hermanson from last year. If a random lefty is the replacement for Marte we're not likely to see a big drop off from the kind of year he had in 2005.

SOXSINCE'70
03-20-2006, 09:16 PM
So tell me what lefty relievers was Kenny Willams too cheap to get during the offseason??

Maybe Ron Guidry's availiable in a fantasy league.:D: :D:

Minnie Me
03-20-2006, 09:25 PM
On tv hard at says he is concerned about middle relief situation. this is cause of great concern as bullpen has potential to be a major suckfest this year.

FarWestChicago
03-20-2006, 09:46 PM
On tv hard at says he is concerned about middle relief situation. this is cause of great concern as bullpen has potential to be a major suckfest this year.Is there anybody who can translate this to English? :?:

Brian26
03-20-2006, 09:51 PM
Is there anybody who can translate this to English? :?:

"hard at" = Hard Art Kusyner ?

If this is what he meant, he wasn't even close.

Lip Man 1
03-20-2006, 09:52 PM
West:

That's about what I sounded like when I had my first beer! :D:

Lip

Daver
03-20-2006, 09:53 PM
Is there anybody who can translate this to English? :?:

I don't speak gibberish.

slavko
03-20-2006, 09:55 PM
This thread is the answer to the unasked question:How was John Rocker able to stay in the bigs so long? (Hey..that's a thought.)

FloridaSox
03-20-2006, 10:26 PM
Did anyone notice that after McCarthy gave up 3 runs in a 1/3 of an inning, Boone Logan came on pitched 1 2/3 innings of hitless ball.

In 71/3 innings pitched this spring, Boone has allowed 4 runners to reach base...3 hits and 1 walk. Only negative is a low K to inning pitched ratio.

Tragg
03-20-2006, 10:49 PM
Jenks, Pollite, McCarthy, Cotts.....pretty damn solid there. I'll put that up against anyone's top 4.
The last 2 may be a problem. We can handle that problem.

BTW, where did Thornton and Boone come from?

ilsox7
03-20-2006, 10:52 PM
Jenks, Pollite, McCarthy, Cotts.....pretty damn solid there. I'll put that up against anyone's top 4.
The last 2 may be a problem. We can handle that problem.



Exactly. What people apparently are forgetting is that for the first part of last season, we had a ****ty Shingo, a below average Viz, and a, well, Marte. We still managed to tear through the schedule with those guys. Is the bullpen a concern? Sure. But show me one team that has 0 concerns. I'll take our concerns over just about any other team's.

Tragg
03-20-2006, 11:00 PM
Exactly. What people apparently are forgetting is that for the first part of last season, we had a ****ty Shingo, a below average Viz, and a, well, Marte. We still managed to tear through the schedule with those guys. Is the bullpen a concern? Sure. But show me one team that has 0 concerns. I'll take our concerns over just about any other team's.
My only real concern is whether this team will come out hungry and ready to play. I remember 1984, 1995 and 2001 (we were nowhere ready to play for any of those seasons) just all too well.
Fresh/new players and Ozzie should help a lot in that regard.

ilsox7
03-20-2006, 11:05 PM
My only real concern is whether this team will come out hungry and ready to play. I remember 1984, 1995 and 2001 (we were nowhere ready to play for any of those seasons) just all too well.
Fresh/new players and Ozzie should help a lot in that regard.
I think this is where Thome makes a big difference, as well as Ozzie. Thome will be respected by this team, and you know he wants a ring. That attitude will hopefully keep the guys hungry for more hardware.

Frontman
03-20-2006, 11:27 PM
So let me get this straight.

Kenny didn't spend money on a non-exsistant LHP who noone can name.

I hear various words that the doom and gloom crowd have latched onto from talk radio. (ie "suckfest" Can we say afternoon's on the Score? That wouldn't be a word that one of the host's use often now, would it?)

And we now are worried that in spring training, the Sox don't have a dominant Left Handed reliever.

Tell me, where was Shinjo Takasu when the post seaon started?

It's a long season, gang. I'm sure the boys in black will work it out.

Front

StockdaleForVeep
03-21-2006, 12:09 AM
It would have been nice if Kenny would have gone out and just gotten one quality lefty instead of subjecting everyone to this embarrassment of lefties.

It reminds me of someone that buys the cheapest product in order to save money and when that breaks, they go out and spend just a little more to get some better crap and they keep wasting their money until they finally realize that they should have just spent the money the first time to buy the right thing.

The Sox are still going to need a REAL lefty reliever after this guy Thornton costs them some games. C'mon Kenny you built a fabulous team, don't cheap off on the last component or two.

Jenks was considered worthless due to his psycho attitude of drinkin and burnin cigars on his forearms not doin well in anahiem and just bein a loose cannon and it aint hurt us

SoxFan76
03-21-2006, 03:05 AM
So let me get this straight.

Kenny didn't spend money on a non-exsistant LHP who noone can name.

I hear various words that the doom and gloom crowd have latched onto from talk radio. (ie "suckfest" Can we say afternoon's on the Score? That wouldn't be a word that one of the host's use often now, would it?)

And we now are worried that in spring training, the Sox don't have a dominant Left Handed reliever.

Tell me, where was Shinjo Takasu when the post seaon started?

It's a long season, gang. I'm sure the boys in black will work it out.

Front

Who?

I've seen some names butchered around here, but wow!

eastchicagosoxfan
03-21-2006, 06:14 AM
Weren't these same questions asked last year, especially in Cotts's case? A lot of people thoght Vizcaino was a waste too. A year later Cotts is viewed as a key to the pen. Marte was a potential closer, by September, he was cannon fodder. Give the players, and the management a chance to demonstrate they know something about baseball. Do the dump Jermaine Dye and Joe Crede threads from last year need to be resurrected?

oeo
03-21-2006, 07:26 AM
It would have been nice if Kenny would have gone out and just gotten one quality lefty instead of subjecting everyone to this embarrassment of lefties.

It reminds me of someone that buys the cheapest product in order to save money and when that breaks, they go out and spend just a little more to get some better crap and they keep wasting their money until they finally realize that they should have just spent the money the first time to buy the right thing.

The Sox are still going to need a REAL lefty reliever after this guy Thornton costs them some games. C'mon Kenny you built a fabulous team, don't cheap off on the last component or two.

We have a real lefty reliever, his name is Neal Cotts. We don't need another lefty...it would be nice to have another lefty, but we don't need one. This is a left-handed reliever that will get maybe one or two guys out tops...give me a break. Some of you seem to forget that we had The Great Marte out there last year.

goofymsfan
03-21-2006, 07:44 AM
Matt used to be a starter in the minors and can pitch in long relief if needed. Give him a chance before you decide to not like him.

Frontman
03-21-2006, 08:54 AM
Who?

I've seen some names butchered around here, but wow!

"Tell me, where was Shinjo Takasu when the post seaon started?"

Oops, ok, let me check out Whitesox.com and look up the actual spelling of his name.....

Wait, he's still no longer a part of the team. Yeah, he isn't a part of the team, so sorry on the mistake on his spelling. Boy, good thing Kenny took care of this problem during spring training last year and got rid of a bad closer for a good closer.......

Wait again, he started the year with the team. Hearing all the doom and gloom around here, you'd think that was impossible to make a move after April 2nd.......

Front

kevin57
03-21-2006, 09:04 AM
The posts about "look at who we're replacing" (namely, Viz and Marte) as well as the "niceness" and not "necessity" of another lefty are well-taken. To me, the only "disappointment" (and I use the word very mildly) is that the farm system relievers have shown very little promise. And certainly, all of them were given lots of innings to prove themselves. But I'm not worried or darkening as a cloud.

Jjav829
03-21-2006, 09:05 AM
It would have been nice if Kenny would have gone out and just gotten one quality lefty instead of subjecting everyone to this embarrassment of lefties.

It reminds me of someone that buys the cheapest product in order to save money and when that breaks, they go out and spend just a little more to get some better crap and they keep wasting their money until they finally realize that they should have just spent the money the first time to buy the right thing.

The Sox are still going to need a REAL lefty reliever after this guy Thornton costs them some games. C'mon Kenny you built a fabulous team, don't cheap off on the last component or two.

Why does it seem like so many people around here keep forgetting that Neal Cotts is a lefty?

If our biggest problem is that we don't have a great second lefty out of the pen, we're in great shape. Besides, it's middle relief pitching - the most unpredictable position in baseball. Look at Scott Eyre's numbers before last year. They weren't very good. Ron Villone was awful before the first half of last year. Dan Wheeler was a very mediocre reliever before having a great year last season. I could keep going but I think the point has been made. Did you really want Kenny to spend $47 million over 5 years for B.J. Ryan? Over $40 over 4 years for Billy Wagner?

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 09:54 AM
A. I love Cotts, Politte and Jenks.

B. Of the 3 only Jenks can be counted on to close.

C. Jenks still has concerns about his conditioning/weight, lack of experience, attitude/maturity, health/elbow.

C. Hermie's on the DL and possibly done for the season.

D. McCarthy has never pitched out of the bullpen and so far doesn't look too comfortable doing so.

D. 3 legitimate relief pitchers is not enough even with 5 excellent starters.

E. We need one more LEGIT relief pitcher ! RH or LH.

F. Matt Thornton sucks.

INSox56
03-21-2006, 10:10 AM
F. Matt Thornton sucks.

I don't know about that...I know he sucked for Seattle....but...

In today's Trib or ST, don't remember which, Kenny was quoted to saying... "[Pitching coach] Don Cooper and I have had this conversation about Matt Thornton for a couple of years. And when the pitching coach tells you `I want this guy,' and don't worry about his ability to throw strikes, and my scouts want the guy as well, I'm going to do everything I can to go get him."

I think I'd trust their judgement more than my or any other fan's minor observance or simply looking at his stats. I'm not saying he doesn't have POTENTIAL to suck, however I am saying you cannot say he sucks when obviously, people who know more than us are saying he clearly doesn't.

Ol' No. 2
03-21-2006, 10:21 AM
Is there anybody who can translate this to English? :?:Considering the source, are you sure you want to?

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 10:21 AM
How long do you want me to wait to say "now he sucks for the White Sox too" ? A month, two months ?

How many games does he give away before he sucks ? 2 , 3, 5 ?

INSox56
03-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Wow is all I can say. But either way...SAY HE DOES SUCK....Name me ONE very good available reliever out there to just straight sign....OK zero. Now....please tell me who you're going to trade from our team to land a quality reliever.

Baby Fisk
03-21-2006, 10:29 AM
How long do you want me to wait to say "now he sucks for the White Sox too" ? A month, two months ?

How many games does he give away before he sucks ? 2 , 3, 5 ?
A consensus will form quickly. Eg. If he sucks in his first appearance, the uprising will begin. But let's see how he does first. What does your mother in law think of the deal?

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 10:32 AM
My mother-in-law says that the Phillies are shopping Cormier. Maybe they'll take the great Matt Thornton for him.

1951Campbell
03-21-2006, 10:42 AM
Randy:

I understand the desire to have as solid a bullpen as possible, but without any viable options out there, the Sox are kind of stuck. My cursory skim of the thread suggests that only Rheal Cormier is available. I can only conclude that every other team is in the same boat--i.e., "gee, I wish we had a good lefty middle reliever." And if everyone else is in the same boat, well, there's really no competitive disadvantage for us.

If you had said before the 2005 season that the Sox would use three closers, the last of which was a AA pitcher, would you think they would go wire-to-wire and dominate in the playoffs? Probably not.

thepaulbowski
03-21-2006, 11:23 AM
Randy:

I understand the desire to have as solid a bullpen as possible, but without any viable options out there, the Sox are kind of stuck. My cursory skim of the thread suggests that only Rheal Cormier is available. I can only conclude that every other team is in the same boat--i.e., "gee, I wish we had a good lefty middle reliever." And if everyone else is in the same boat, well, there's really no competitive disadvantage for us.

If you had said before the 2005 season that the Sox would use three closers, the last of which was a AA pitcher, would you think they would go wire-to-wire and dominate in the playoffs? Probably not.

Rationality has no place in this thread. So, please stop it.

oeo
03-21-2006, 11:42 AM
A. I love Cotts, Politte and Jenks.

B. Of the 3 only Jenks can be counted on to close.

C. Jenks still has concerns about his conditioning/weight, lack of experience, attitude/maturity, health/elbow.

C. Hermie's on the DL and possibly done for the season.

D. McCarthy has never pitched out of the bullpen and so far doesn't look too comfortable doing so.

D. 3 legitimate relief pitchers is not enough even with 5 excellent starters.

E. We need one more LEGIT relief pitcher ! RH or LH.

F. Matt Thornton sucks.
Oh no, we're doomed!!

Stop whining...you haven't even seen them play a regular season game yet. When there are, for a fact, problems then you can whine. As of now, you have nothing to whine about. We're the reigning World Champs and we have an even better ballclub going out there this year. And if one of these guys does step up, I'm sure you will be the first one to say you knew it all along. "Legit" reliefers have to start somewhere, you know, who's to say one of these guys might turn out to be the best we have this year. Kenny is known to catch lightning in a bottle. You cannot judge on a few spring training games. I'm not saying someone is going to step up, but you really need to stop worrying about it until our bullpen is blowing games.

Who knew the pessimism would start so early?

voodoochile
03-21-2006, 11:47 AM
How long do you want me to wait to say "now he sucks for the White Sox too" ? A month, two months ?

How many games does he give away before he sucks ? 2 , 3, 5 ?

I'm going to go with...

At least one...:rolleyes:

1951Campbell
03-21-2006, 12:33 PM
Rationality has no place in this thread. So, please stop it.

Well, I have no choice but to be rational again.

I seem to remember Shingo having just one really bad outing, and he was gone. We paid less for Throrton, so why should anyone think that he'll linger and blow a ton of games if the Sox unceremoniously showed Shingo the door after a single meltdown?

KyWhiSoxFan
03-21-2006, 12:50 PM
This whole thread is about the 11th person on the pitching staff. Seems like small stuff.

Last time I checked, Cotts, Politte, and Jenks all could get lefties out with regularity.

The reason to trade Borchard is to give him a chance with another organization. If Thornton is able to help in any way -- any way -- it is a plus for the Sox. If he can't do anything, the Sox are no worse off than before they made the trade because Borchard was not going north with the team.

I think anyone who can average 1K per inning, like Thornton, has some potential and worth giving a shot. We got nothing to lose.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2006, 01:54 PM
Kenny's comments today lead one to think that the changes for the club are over (at least for right now...) In fact Kenny said he was 'happy with the club now...'

He also hinted that the Sox would be going north with the three left handers to go with the three right handers and that Hermanson will start the season on the 15 day DL. He also said the early indication is that McCarthy will be moved again, this time to a right handed set up role and that Thornton will be pushed more towards long or middle relief.

We'll see...

Lip

lostletters
03-21-2006, 03:47 PM
Kenny's comments today lead one to think that the changes for the club are over (at least for right now...) In fact Kenny said he was 'happy with the club now...'

He also hinted that the Sox would be going north with the three left handers to go with the three right handers and that Hermanson will start the season on the 15 day DL. He also said the early indication is that McCarthy will be moved again, this time to a right handed set up role and that Thornton will be pushed more towards long or middle relief.

We'll see...

Lip

Thorton is no worse then Viz was coming into the White Sox. He will have a very similiar role to.

Cotts, Jenks (who I have no concern for), Politte (who is coming back to his 2005 form), and McCarthy is not a bad core. A young Logan may be this years Jenks, a young rookie phenom. While he is not a strikeout pitcher, that may be good for the team. I do not see our bullpen as any better or worse then last year when it gets down to it. A healthy hermanson would be better in the pen and make the bullpen really strong, but he may be having problems that may end his baseball career.

A. Cavatica
03-21-2006, 04:09 PM
I think Thornton will probably be the lefthanded version of Jon Adkins, but I don't mind the trade because (1) we gave up far less than Ray Durham to get him, and (2) lefthanded pitchers that suck are more tradeable than fifth outfielders that suck.

maurice
03-21-2006, 04:15 PM
I mentioned Scott Shoenweis in the other thread, but now I'm thinking more along the lines of Alan Embree.

Plenty of guys have been "on KW's radar for a couple of years." Only some of them work out. The good news is that he rarely gives up much in return, so he's free to cut his losses and move in another direction.

JohnBasedowYoda
03-21-2006, 04:34 PM
I mentioned Scott Shoenweis in the other thread

Man I forgot all about him. Remember Schoe's Bro's?

Baby Fisk
03-21-2006, 04:40 PM
I mentioned Scott Shoenweis in the other thread, but now I'm thinking more along the lines of Alan Embree.

Plenty of guys have been "on KW's radar for a couple of years." Only some of them work out. The good news is that he rarely gives up much in return, so he's free to cut his losses and move in another direction.
Shoeneweis has made a nice home for himself with the Jays. Does anyone else remember hearing somewhere that KW had some interest in reacquiring Shoe someday? I thought I heard that last year.

Shoe's 2005 stats (http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=150011)

Ol' No. 2
03-21-2006, 05:09 PM
Shoeneweis has made a nice home for himself with the Jays. Does anyone else remember hearing somewhere that KW had some interest in reacquiring Shoe someday? I thought I heard that last year.

Shoe's 2005 stats (http://toronto.bluejays.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/player.jsp?player_id=150011)Schoeneweis was OK as a reliever. He wanted to start.

Domeshot17
03-21-2006, 05:58 PM
The nice thing for Boone Logan (who by far has the coolest name on the sox this year) is that he has a tremendous D behind him. He looks like hes a guy who would rely on his infield heavily, and thats fine with me with Crede Uribe Tada and PK. He is taking over the Cotts role, face 1 or 2 batters and hes done. Cotts takes over the 8th inning role and Jenks in the 9th.

Lets wait a while before we freak out. I seem to remember a time last year when we had KEVIN WALKER in the bullpen and we were still winning. Thorton will be our Kevin Walker at first. He comes in when the over/under is 6 or more.

Al Leiter just retired, maybe we can go pick him up!!

JUribe1989
03-21-2006, 06:07 PM
It shouldn't matter where we finish this year no matter what. We are the World Champions of 2005. Do you realize how many people never get to say that they saw their favorite team win a world series? We are some of the luckiest bunch as far as baseball fans go. People really need to stop bitching and complaining. And complaining about Kenny Williams? Please! You have to be kidding me

FloridaSox
03-21-2006, 06:32 PM
It shouldn't matter where we finish this year no matter what. We are the World Champions of 2005. Do you realize how many people never get to say that they saw their favorite team win a world series? We are some of the luckiest bunch as far as baseball fans go. People really need to stop bitching and complaining. And complaining about Kenny Williams? Please! You have to be kidding me

Thank you for giving me the perspective I need. I am 63 years old and waited 56 years for a White Sox championship season. My life is full and if I die tomorrow, I still got to see my White Sox crowned World Champions.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2006, 06:41 PM
Well all I can say is that Thornton had an 'interesting' start to his Sox career this afternoon.

:o:

Lip

delben91
03-21-2006, 07:18 PM
Well all I can say is that Thornton had an 'interesting' start to his Sox career this afternoon.

:o:

Lip

Assuming Kenny can't make another move before April 2nd, which, from the sounds of it, is unlikely, I'm willing to give Thornton a shot for a few weeks, maybe towards the end of May, to work in blowouts, and see if he can sort out some of his issues.

Iwritecode
03-21-2006, 07:24 PM
Do you realize how many people never get to say that they saw their favorite team win a world series?

Cubs fans, Indians fans (well, the older ones maybe), Astros fans, Rockies fans...

Somebody posted the list at one point.

patbooyah
03-21-2006, 07:39 PM
Well all I can say is that Thornton had an 'interesting' start to his Sox career this afternoon.

:o:

Lip

no joke. i'm hoping he was just getting used to cooper's new mechanics...

Wheelhouse
03-21-2006, 07:56 PM
no joke. i'm hoping he was just getting used to cooper's new mechanics...
Gad - Mariners fans have been hearing that for years. After the seond or third time around Peter Townshend starts echoing in your mind:

Just saw the new pitch
Looks lke the old pitch.
Noooope. Nobody fooled again.

patbooyah
03-21-2006, 07:57 PM
Gad - Mariners fans have been hearing that for years. After the seond or third time around Peter Townshend starts echoing in your mind:

Just saw the new pitch
Looks lke the old pitch.
Noooope. Nobody fooled again.

well, mr. mariner... i'll hit you back with some babs:


Lifeís candy and the sunís
A ball of butter.
Donít bring around a cloud
To rain on my parade.
Donít tell me not to fly--
Iíve simply got to.
If someone takes a spill,
Itís me and not you.
Who told you youíre allowed
To rain on my parade!

:D:

Wheelhouse
03-21-2006, 08:32 PM
well, mr. mariner... i'll hit you back with some babs:


Lifeís candy and the sunís
A ball of butter.
Donít bring around a cloud
To rain on my parade.
Donít tell me not to fly--
Iíve simply got to.
If someone takes a spill,
Itís me and not you.
Who told you youíre allowed
To rain on my parade!

:D:

It's always interesting visting various forums after deals like this. Fans are the same everywhere. Over in Marinerland people are marveling at how the Marienrs were able to get anything at all for Thornton, and they figure that Borchard just needs a chance and and new environment and he'll get things turned around. It's the stereo isomer of the discussions here!

The reality is that the trade was crap for crap - for both guys it's almost certainly nothing more than a last stop on the way out of baseball. Thornton may last a bit longer; since he's a lefty with a 97 mph gastball, he might cycle through a few more teams on minor league contracts before everyone in baseball gives up on him.

On another front, though, if Bucky Jacobsen has gotten serious about conditioning, the Sox have themselves a great, inexpensive backup in case Thome goes down. I thought he acquitted himself very well in his stint with the Mariners a couple of years ago. For the last four five years he's had a bad knee, and in 2004 it got so bad that he couldn't really turn on fastballs anymore. So when you look at his numbers keep that in mind. The Dude smacks the ball and has some pretty decent discipline.

The Mariners got PO'd at him because he didn't take his rehab seriously. Hie ballooned up to about 300 pounds, which meant he was putting about 60 poiunds more on a rehabbing knee than he should have been, and it took him forever to get back. Reports were that he wsn't really working that hard on his exercises and therapy.

If he's gotten himself straightened out now, he could be a solid contributor if needed. If he were to get some extended time in the lineup, he could easily give a .350 or beter OBP and .425 or better SLG. And I wouldn't be the least surprised if he posted an .850 OPS or beter getting half his ABs at the Cel.

A. Cavatica
03-21-2006, 08:38 PM
The reality is that the trade was crap for crap - for both guys it's almost certainly nothing more than a last stop on the way out of baseball.

Yes -- but every Sox fan and Mariner fan is crossing his fingers and praying that the guy they just traded away doesn't suddenly live up to his potential.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2006, 10:18 PM
If you are looking as his entire GM resume he doesn't rate a 10. He made some very,very bad deals his first few years as he basically learned on the job.

However that has to be balanced with the fact that he always had a real desire to see the Sox win, that he was aggressive and that he was media-friendly which helped the organization (unlike his predecessor)

If I were judging him I'd give him an 8.

Lip

A. Cavatica
03-21-2006, 10:23 PM
If you are looking as his entire GM resume he doesn't rate a 10. He made some very,very bad deals his first few years as he basically learned on the job.

Yes, but he's gotten better every year. He really has learned on the job -- he has gone from a fair GM to a very good one.

BeviBall!
03-21-2006, 11:39 PM
If you are looking as his entire GM resume he doesn't rate a 10. He made some very,very bad deals his first few years as he basically learned on the job.

However that has to be balanced with the fact that he always had a real desire to see the Sox win, that he was aggressive and that he was media-friendly which helped the organization (unlike his predecessor)

If I were judging him I'd give him an 8.

Lip

Show me another Sox GM that has a ring. My grade: 10+

White Sox Randy
03-22-2006, 11:07 AM
If you are looking as his entire GM resume he doesn't rate a 10. He made some very,very bad deals his first few years as he basically learned on the job.

However that has to be balanced with the fact that he always had a real desire to see the Sox win, that he was aggressive and that he was media-friendly which helped the organization (unlike his predecessor)

If I were judging him I'd give him an 8.

Lip


Exactly ! As usual, Lip, I'm in agreement with you.

SBSoxFan
03-22-2006, 11:20 AM
Yes -- but every Sox fan and Mariner fan is crossing his fingers and praying that the guy they just traded away doesn't suddenly live up to his potential.
I'm not. For his, sake, I hope Borchard does well. And if Coop thinks he can turn Thorton around, then I believe. :praying:

Besides, a 6'6" lefty who can throw in the mid-to-high 90's is more valuable than a power-hitting outfielder.

gosox3072
03-22-2006, 04:11 PM
Im actually worried about the bulpen as well. But give me a break, more than likely we will have all of our starters go at least 6 or 7 innings a game. This only leaves 2 innings to pitch for the pen. We will be fine as long as Jenks stays healthy.

sullythered
03-22-2006, 04:21 PM
I'm not. For his, sake, I hope Borchard does well. And if Coop thinks he can turn Thorton around, then I believe. :praying:

Besides, a 6'6" lefty who can throw in the mid-to-high 90's is more valuable than a power-hitting outfielder.

Couldn't agree more. Joe's actually a pretty cool guy, and I'd like to see him do well somewhere. It certainly wasn't gonna happen here. And who knows, maybe we can get something out of Thorton.

miker
03-22-2006, 04:43 PM
I seem to remember Shingo having just one really bad outing, and he was gone. We paid less for Throrton, so why should anyone think that he'll linger and blow a ton of games if the Sox unceremoniously showed Shingo the door after a single meltdown?
That bad outing was the dramatic action-packed explosive end to a long period of ever increasing ineffectiveness. It wasn't as heartless as you're leading us to believe.

Are lefties scarce? If Billy "Batting Practice" Koch was left handed, he'd have 30 teams interested in him.

And it has been said before that Neal Cotts is left-handed, far from worthless and at last report was embracing his role as a reliever.

Now back to the irrational...already in progress.

Lip Man 1
03-22-2006, 05:29 PM
Well today's 'meltdown' wasn't exactly another encouraging sign. That's what four times in the past ten days for the team in Cactus League play? (Oakland, Texas, Colorado twice..)

Lip

patbooyah
03-22-2006, 05:47 PM
yeah, jenks got lit up! again! thats a 7+ ERA.

i'm a little nervous. i have to say.

1951Campbell
03-22-2006, 06:01 PM
That bad outing was the dramatic action-packed explosive end to a long period of ever increasing ineffectiveness. It wasn't as heartless as you're leading us to believe.



Yes, there was a ramp-up to the explosion of suckitude.

In other news, Jenks struggling makes the comforting thought that all our starters will go 6-7 a piece somehow slightly less comforting. But hey, these games still don't count.

itsnotrequired
03-22-2006, 06:30 PM
yeah, jenks got lit up! again! thats a 7+ ERA.

i'm a little nervous. i have to say.

1 IP, 4 H, 4 R (all earned), 1 BB, 1 K

Lit up indeed...

MarySwiss
03-22-2006, 06:35 PM
When the Sox are 7 games out in late September with 6 to play, that's when I'll panic.

[insert Pollyanna icon if you like]

fquaye149
03-22-2006, 08:04 PM
If you are looking as his entire GM resume he doesn't rate a 10. He made some very,very bad deals his first few years as he basically learned on the job.

However that has to be balanced with the fact that he always had a real desire to see the Sox win, that he was aggressive and that he was media-friendly which helped the organization (unlike his predecessor)

If I were judging him I'd give him an 8.

Lip

Here's the thing though: in the last two years he hasn't made too many bad deals. In the last two years he's made almost exclusively great deals.

What if a guy comes up to the majors, hits .200 his first year, .230 his next year, .260 his third year (colon and loaiza...but Koch and fift starter debacle) but in his fourth year hits .300 and in his fifth year wins the triple crown?

I would give that player as close to a 10/10 as a hitter as you could get

Lip Man 1
03-22-2006, 08:45 PM
Fquaye:

Granted but the question was about his five year tenure, not the last two. I give him a 10 for the past two seasons (including his outburst with Frank) but overall because of those early bad deals I don't see how you can give him a 10 (perfect) score.

He is now one of the best GM's the Sox have had, ranking right up there with Frank Lane and Ed Short and behind Roland Hemond (since Hemond stepped into the biggest cesspool in team history and turned it around in two years..)

Lip

Lip

1951Campbell
03-22-2006, 09:49 PM
When the Sox are 7 games out in late September with 6 to play, that's when I'll panic.

[insert Pollyanna icon if you like]

http://img1.travelblog.org/Photos/4657/13335/f/56866-Little-fluffy-clouds-0.jpg

What were the skies like when you were young?

They went on forever and they when I we lived in Arizona and the skies
always had little fluffy clouds and err.. they were long and clear and there
were lots of stars, at night.

And errr when it rain it would all turn, it, they were beautiful, the most
beautiful skies as a matter of fact, the sunsets were purple and red and
yellow and on fire and the clouds would catch the colours everywhere,
thats, its neat because I used to look at them all the time when I was
little. You don't see that.

Layering different sounds on top of each other
Layering different sounds on top of each other

Little fluffy clouds and little fluffy clouds and
lililillilililililillililililililili little fluffy clouds and little fluffy
clouds and lililililililililililililililililililili

What were skies like when you were young?

They went on for ever and they when I we lived in Arizona and the skies
always had little fluffy clouds and err.. they were long and clear and there
were lots of stars, at night.

And errr when it rain it would all turn, it, they were beautiful, the most
beautiful skies as a matter of fact, errr the sunsets were the sunsets were
purple and red and yellow and on fire and the clouds would catch the
colours everywhere, thats, its neat because I used to look at them all the
time when i was little. You don't see that.

little fluffy clouds and little fluffy clouds and
lililililililililililililililililililililili little fuffy clouds and little
fluffy clouds and lililililililililililililililililililili

When I we lived in Arizona and the skies always had little fluffy clouds and
err.. they were long and clear and there were lots of stars, at night.
And errr when it rain it would all turn, it, they were beautiful, the most
beautiful skies as a matter of fact the sunsets were the sunsets were purple
and red and yellow and were on fire and the clouds would catch the colours
everywhere, thats, its neat because I used to look at them all the time when
i was little. You don't see that, you might still see them in the desert.

The most beautiful skies as a matter of fact
Purple and red

Purple and red and yellow and on fire

miker
03-23-2006, 03:31 PM
Forget the skies, I want to see the girl in the white top...

Lillian
03-29-2006, 06:09 PM
This thread started quite a while back, and was originally about the search for a lefty out of the pen. The topic got highjacked, but should be worthy of revisiting.
I was at all of the games at Tucson Electric Park, until a week ago, and I witnessed the miserable collection of lefties whom the Sox kept running out there. Of course, we have all been pretty worried about how the Sox were going to find someone capable of filling that spot. Now with Hermanson going on the DL, some of us have really been concerned. However, things could really turn around dramatically with the emergence of Boone Logan, and now Matt Thornton. It appears as though Cooper really has found a key to harnessing Thornton's stuff. And Boone Logan looks like the real deal.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if this seemingly insurmountable problem turned into a big plus? Cotts, Thornton and Logan could turn this previous weakness into a real strength. Just imagine how good our bullpen could be if we had three effective lefties!

SBSoxFan
03-29-2006, 06:37 PM
Boone Logan 2/3 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 1 SO
Matt Thorton 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 1 SO

:D:

sox1970
03-29-2006, 07:04 PM
Boone Logan 2/3 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 1 SO
Matt Thorton 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 1 SO

:D:

Boone Logan
Matt Thornton
Brandon McCarthy
Cliff Politte
Neal Cotts
Bobby Jenks

At first look, this doesn't appear to be a very good bullpen. But I have a feeling this is going to turn out well. I'm at least going to give them a chance before I say this is a mediocre bullpen.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2006, 07:09 PM
Sox 1970:

I sincerely hope you are correct.

Lip

MarySwiss
03-29-2006, 07:13 PM
http://img1.travelblog.org/Photos/4657/13335/f/56866-Little-fluffy-clouds-0.jpg

What were the skies like when you were young?

They went on forever and they when I we lived in Arizona and the skies
always had little fluffy clouds and err.. they were long and clear and there
were lots of stars, at night.

And errr when it rain it would all turn, it, they were beautiful, the most
beautiful skies as a matter of fact, the sunsets were purple and red and
yellow and on fire and the clouds would catch the colours everywhere,
thats, its neat because I used to look at them all the time when I was
little. You don't see that.

Layering different sounds on top of each other
Layering different sounds on top of each other

Little fluffy clouds and little fluffy clouds and
lililillilililililillililililililili little fluffy clouds and little fluffy
clouds and lililililililililililililililililililili

What were skies like when you were young?

They went on for ever and they when I we lived in Arizona and the skies
always had little fluffy clouds and err.. they were long and clear and there
were lots of stars, at night.

And errr when it rain it would all turn, it, they were beautiful, the most
beautiful skies as a matter of fact, errr the sunsets were the sunsets were
purple and red and yellow and on fire and the clouds would catch the
colours everywhere, thats, its neat because I used to look at them all the
time when i was little. You don't see that.

little fluffy clouds and little fluffy clouds and
lililililililililililililililililililililili little fuffy clouds and little
fluffy clouds and lililililililililililililililililililili

When I we lived in Arizona and the skies always had little fluffy clouds and
err.. they were long and clear and there were lots of stars, at night.
And errr when it rain it would all turn, it, they were beautiful, the most
beautiful skies as a matter of fact the sunsets were the sunsets were purple
and red and yellow and were on fire and the clouds would catch the colours
everywhere, thats, its neat because I used to look at them all the time when
i was little. You don't see that, you might still see them in the desert.

The most beautiful skies as a matter of fact
Purple and red

Purple and red and yellow and on fire

Sorry, guy. Somehow, I missed your post.

However, let me just say this--:?:

1951Campbell
03-29-2006, 08:11 PM
Sorry, guy. Somehow, I missed your post.

However, let me just say this--:?:

Hey, Pollyannas are essentially Fluffy Clouds, right? The opposite of Dark Clouds. The "Fluffy Cloud" moniker that pops up here occasionally reminds me of that song by the Orb...you even live in Arizona.

It's all connected in my brain. Makes sense. I swear.

Dolanski
03-29-2006, 08:11 PM
OK, someone get Randy off the ledge before he jumps...

You are freaking out about a situational lefty. Big. Fat. Hairy. Deal. Angels went to the playoffs last year without a lefty in the pen.

Oh and to paraphrase from Moneyball or Theo Epstein or one of those new baseball gurus, you spend the first third of the season learning what you have, you spend the second third fixing the problem, you spend the last third running for the pennant.

SBSoxFan
03-29-2006, 08:24 PM
you spend the last third running for the pennant.
which is why they peter out in the playoffs.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2006, 08:45 PM
Dolanski:

In my opinion it's more then a situational lefty. McCarthy is new to his role, Jenks is out of shape, has been iffy on the mound and has all of three months experience in the bigs. Thornton has been a bust in the bigs since day one. Logan has never thrown a pitch in a regular season game.

To me the only 'sure things' are Cotts and Politte.

I think the questions are legit as well as the concern.

I hope things work out from day one but as stated in the 'predicitons' thread, I think this is going to be an issue that's going to cost the Sox games until Kenny corrects the problem in June.

Lip

delben91
03-29-2006, 09:02 PM
I hope things work out from day one but as stated in the 'predicitons' thread, I think this is going to be an issue that's going to cost the Sox games until Kenny corrects the problem in June.

Lip
I agree that it could be a problem, but I'm also not so sure Kenny will have to "fix it." I think it is quite possible it would fix itself. Jenks rounds into shape, Thorton "figures it out", Logan adjusts to the big leagues, McCarthy learns his role. Might be that Kenny doesn't have to do a thing, and actually, that's what my bet is. Might take a month or 6 weeks, and you have to wonder just how much patience the front office will have, but I see this scenario as distinctly possible.

Ol' No. 2
03-29-2006, 09:28 PM
Dolanski:

In my opinion it's more then a situational lefty. McCarthy is new to his role, Jenks is out of shape, has been iffy on the mound and has all of three months experience in the bigs. Thornton has been a bust in the bigs since day one. Logan has never thrown a pitch in a regular season game.

To me the only 'sure things' are Cotts and Politte.

I think the questions are legit as well as the concern.

I hope things work out from day one but as stated in the 'predicitons' thread, I think this is going to be an issue that's going to cost the Sox games until Kenny corrects the problem in June.

LipThink of all the sure things at the start of last year that weren't. And think of all the problem areas that turned out to be strengths.

It's tough to make predictions - especially about the future.:cool:

Dolanski
03-29-2006, 11:52 PM
Dolanski:

In my opinion it's more then a situational lefty. McCarthy is new to his role, Jenks is out of shape, has been iffy on the mound and has all of three months experience in the bigs. Thornton has been a bust in the bigs since day one. Logan has never thrown a pitch in a regular season game.

To me the only 'sure things' are Cotts and Politte.

I think the questions are legit as well as the concern.

I hope things work out from day one but as stated in the 'predicitons' thread, I think this is going to be an issue that's going to cost the Sox games until Kenny corrects the problem in June.

Lip

If there is any place where it is a crapshoot year in and year out its bullpens.

Last season, the best bullpen in baseball was in Milwakee. They had a bunch of nonames, washouts, etc. I don't think they had a single reliever making over a million. On the flipside, you had the Yankees who brought in Gordon, Stanton, etc. Most expensive bullpen in baseball and they stunk. But they were all "proven" guys and "sure things."

Heck, Todd Jones was washed up three years ago. He had a great year last year and regain a closing job.

I will say the thing that really hurts us is losing Hermanson. He could close, long relief, start, etc. Extremely versatile. If anything, that scares me. But I take solice in having Trader Ken as a GM, because if anyone can pull a trade off midseason, its him.

White Sox Randy
03-30-2006, 10:55 AM
[quote=Dolanski]OK, someone get Randy off the ledge before he jumps...


I'm happy as a lark and chomping at the bit for the season to start - and have been for 3 weeks. That's the reason that I keep talking about the bullpen - there's nothing else to talk about !

I love this team and fully expect another division title. I'm happy with every facet of this team except the bullpen right now. So, that's the only part left to work on. Any Sox fan would have to admit that this area is atleast questionable. KW and Ozzie know that it is.

It may turn out to be fine. Maybe KW won't have to make any more moves with this pen. Maybe Thornton and Logan and the rest will do the job all season long and thru the playoffs. I would be thrilled. And, I would be stunned.

Every player has looked good except Iguchi and I think he'll have a great year. We'll see how the pen does. If we need to make a move, I'm sure KW will. I just don't want to see them blow half a dozen games early and somehow that makes a difference at the end of the season. Because, the Sox will not run away with this division. This is the toughest in baseball and it will be close. The Twins are coming back with a vengeance and Detroit is good. We need a top notch bullpen to match the rest of the team.

GO SOX !

lostletters
03-30-2006, 11:06 AM
Actually I think our bullpen is better then last year. If you have not been reading up...Marte is problem prone. Logan, a young groundballer, is probably a better bet.

As it was said, bullpens are always a gamble. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Sure you may have one or two guys who are dependable (in the white sox case, Cotts and Politte), but beyond that it is often a mystery. As ozzie himself said, the bullpen was constantly in flux last year. Shingo was gone early on, Hermy had back problems, and Jenks ended the season as the closer. Marte was a joke, and Viz was not dependable until the second half.

Will it take time for some of these guys to adjust, sure. But having two guys who seem to be ready certianly helps. The bullpen is always a gamble, but if you get any degree of certaintity you are better off then the next guy.

A. Cavatica
03-30-2006, 05:29 PM
The Twins are coming back with a vengeance and Detroit is good.

:kukoo:

The Twins' run is over. They won't contend.
Detroit still stinks.
It will be a two-team race, and even though I don't think we'll win 99 again, I think the Indians will drop off more than we will.

MRM
03-31-2006, 10:14 PM
This whole thread is funny. It makes less than no difference if the guy makes it or not. He was traded for borchard, who was out of options...that means he was a throwaway. If he's a wash, so what?

I'm much more concerned that the Sox have brought this kid with no higher than A ball experience along for the ride. Is the bullbpen SO bad that they had to take not only Thorton but Boone freakin' Logan? THIS is the one you guys should be worried about. The kid has never pitched above A ball and HE'S ON THE TEAM.

The only weakness I can see on the Sox is the bullpen...but it looks like that could be a HUGE weakness.

rowand33
03-31-2006, 11:00 PM
:kukoo:

The Twins' run is over. They won't contend.
Detroit still stinks.
It will be a two-team race, and even though I don't think we'll win 99 again, I think the Indians will drop off more than we will.

In my opinion, Detroit (if healthy!) has a better offense than the Indians. The Indians have some great players but they've also got some spots in the lineup that I consider to be glaring holes. People forget how good Guillen is, Polanco is a stud, I think Granderson is going to be awesome, Ordonez is great if healthy, and everybody else is solid. Their only problem is that awful rotation of theirs, but they've got a lot of big upside guys. I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the race at the allstar break.

Ol' No. 2
03-31-2006, 11:05 PM
In my opinion, Detroit (if healthy!) has a better offense than the Indians. The Indians have some great players but they've also got some spots in the lineup that I consider to be glaring holes. People forget how good Guillen is, Polanco is a stud, I think Granderson is going to be awesome, Ordonez is great if healthy, and everybody else is solid. Their only problem is that awful rotation of theirs, but they've got a lot of big upside guys. I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the race at the allstar break.Isn't that like saying the Titanic's only problem was the hole in the hull? That rotation will sink them for sure. The Indians are for real. Their rotation won't be as good as last year and they're going to miss Crisp, but another year's experience on a young team will make them a lot better. Even money they grab a wild card.

Lip Man 1
03-31-2006, 11:24 PM
Actually on paper that rotation in Detroit has mucho potential. The three kids at the back end have some experience and are only going to get better. That doesn't mean it will happen this season but they bear watching.

Lip

rowand33
04-01-2006, 01:33 PM
Isn't that like saying the Titanic's only problem was the hole in the hull? That rotation will sink them for sure. The Indians are for real. Their rotation won't be as good as last year and they're going to miss Crisp, but another year's experience on a young team will make them a lot better. Even money they grab a wild card.

Like I said, they've got a lot of upside guys. They may end up being decent. It's just that past performance wouldn't back that up right now.

The Indians replaced Kevin Millwood with Paul Byrd. Jake Westbrook lost 15 games last year and had an ERA well over 4. CC Sabathia never has been as good as people thought and has had a bad spring, the bullpen is worse, and while Wickman was good last year, let's not forget that they tried to replace him in the offseason, and he's another year older.

The Indians are worse than they were last year. They're so overrated it's not even funny.

Kittle'sNeighbor
04-03-2006, 02:29 AM
Thorton looked more than servicable tonight. Pitching on a team this good is easier than pitching for a bust-out team. Eyre would have been nice to have back though.


,.

lostletters
04-03-2006, 04:43 AM
Thorton looked more than servicable tonight. Pitching on a team this good is easier than pitching for a bust-out team. Eyre would have been nice to have back though.


,.

Thorton looked good, McCarthy looked phenomenal, but Politte looked shakey. I think he has yet to iron out all of the kinks with Cooper.


I am DEFINATELY less worried about the bullpen after tonight. It is odd how a rain delay situation can allievate fears regarding part of the pitching staff.

santo=dorf
04-03-2006, 06:28 AM
Thorton looked more than servicable tonight. Pitching on a team this good is easier than pitching for a bust-out team. Eyre would have been nice to have back though.


,.
Scott Eyre's agent said all 30 teams asked about him, based on his recent comments Eyre didn't like it here, and he was even quoted saying Jim "I love overpaying for crap" Hendry came with an offer greater than what he and his agent had set.

fquaye149
04-03-2006, 10:14 AM
Actually on paper that rotation in Detroit has mucho potential. The three kids at the back end have some experience and are only going to get better. That doesn't mean it will happen this season but they bear watching.

Lip

They have pretty much unfufilled potential up till now, sort of like Jon "Don't Call Me Judy" Garland, only worse. Not to mention their upside is probably CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Jake Westbrook style results.

So the way I see it, even if they hit on all cylinders they can only hope to EQUAL Cleveland's rotation. And they almost certainly won't hit on all cylinders