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View Full Version : Joe Borchard traded to the Mariners


spongyfungy
03-20-2006, 10:19 AM
per the score

for lefty reliever Matt Thornton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7212). 29 yr old. REC 0-4 | SV 0 | ERA 5.21

Baby Fisk
03-20-2006, 10:20 AM
Who/what did the Sox get? I know you know, quit holding out on us!

lumpyspun
03-20-2006, 10:21 AM
Oh god! Now I have to hear my girlfriend (m's fan) drone on about how the M's just got some great power hitter and how they got the better end of the deal.

I can't wait to listen to local radio out here in Seattle though, I can just see them hailing this guy as the next big thing.

The M's starting lineup is starting to look like the 2004 Charlotte Knights lineup: Mike Morse, Jeremy Reed, and Joe Borchard.

chisoxmike
03-20-2006, 10:21 AM
If this is true.......

"Celebrate good times come on!"
:gulp: :supernana: :supernana::cheers::party::dancers::moonwalk:

russ99
03-20-2006, 10:25 AM
If this is true.......

Joe Borchard Appreciation Thread?

Really, all we have to show for that massive bonus is a equally massive home run.

MaggPipes
03-20-2006, 10:26 AM
BP says the guy we got has nasty stuff, but no control...also has history of arm problems....but was the Mariners first rounder...in 1998...

Uncle_Patrick
03-20-2006, 10:28 AM
Thus ends the Borchard era...

russ99
03-20-2006, 10:29 AM
BP says the guy we got has nasty stuff, but no control...also has history of arm problems....but was the Mariners first rounder...in 1998...

Thornton did decently in the minors, but that HR rate last year scares me a bit.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/T/matt-thornton.shtml

Sounds like we got rid of our never-up-to-expectations player for theirs.

SoxFan78
03-20-2006, 10:29 AM
Looks like Gload is making the team then. Good luck to Borchard. Nobody should feel bad. He has had plenty of chances to prove his worth. Hopefully he can do it in Seattle.

Lets just hope this lefty reliever can help the Sox.

BanditJimmy
03-20-2006, 10:31 AM
Biggest Bust in Sox history?

For the money, I would say yes.

Uncle_Patrick
03-20-2006, 10:32 AM
Biggest Bust in Sox history?

For the money, I would say yes.

I don't think he was a bigger bust then Scott Ruffcorn, but definitely more expensive.

chisoxmike
03-20-2006, 10:33 AM
So how long before he runs his mouth off?

MarySwiss
03-20-2006, 10:34 AM
I was never a Borchard fan, but for some weird reason, I feel bad about him. Too bad he didn't work out.

spongyfungy
03-20-2006, 10:34 AM
The Herald, WA - Mar 19, 2006 In Scottsdale, Matt Thornton gave up six hits and five runs in the fifth inning against the Giants (http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/03/19/100spo_c2mn001.cfm&cid=0)


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/mastheads/205x28mast.gif....And that is the essence of Matt Thornton. He can throw a fastball with the best of them. He's been clocked at 97 mph. His ball has wings on it. But it doesn't always find the strike zone. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/262781_mari14.html)

listen to the score right now. (http://tuner1.dc1.sonixtream.com/playlists/670thescore/670thescoreWSCRAM.asx)

BanditJimmy
03-20-2006, 10:34 AM
So how long before he runs his mouth off?

I will bet it will be before his next strike out.


Very soon.

santo=dorf
03-20-2006, 10:35 AM
So how long before he runs his mouth off?
What would he have to say bad about the Sox organization?

BTW, why didn't Kenny wait a couple of days? :D:

Iwritecode
03-20-2006, 10:35 AM
Looks like Gload is making the team then.

I wondered how long it would be before we could finally end that debate...

BanditJimmy
03-20-2006, 10:38 AM
What would he have to say bad about the Sox organization?

BTW, why didn't Kenny wait a couple of days? :D:


By the way, wasn't Kenny the one who scouted him when the Sox drafted him?

ChiSoxGirl
03-20-2006, 10:38 AM
This trade doesn't bother me in the least. What does bother me is that this deal wasn't done on White Sox Wednesday! :tongue:

In all seriousness, I have a feeling Borchard is one of those players who just needs a change of scenery in order to do well. He was the biggest waste of a $5 million signing bonus ever! The Sox just cut their losses and have FINALLY moved on and away from the Borchard Era.

Flight #24
03-20-2006, 10:47 AM
Lost among all of this is that the Mariners are apparently recreating the bizarro Sox OF from 2004: Everett-Reed-Borchard. :o: (This on the heels of Isaiah Thomas apparently focusing on recreating the Bulls of 2002 with Crawford-Curry-Rose-ERob.)

As for the guy they got, the only question I have is this: does he still have any option years remaining? If so, great move to get someone that you can work on using Coop magic for a guy you were going to have to cut in 2 weeks.

If not, Coop better work fast!

batmanZoSo
03-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Wow, the Mariners are up to their arses in Sox busts. I would say biggest bust I've ever seen for the Sox, but it's as much of a case of Schueler era over-hyping, which ran absolutely rampant for many years, especially with pitchers: Brian West, Aaron Myette, Kip Wells, Corwin Malone, Jason Stumm..etc. I mean Borchard was a great athlete/football player with great "tools," but did he truly warrant all those grand expectations? I'm far from a scout, but give me a baseball player over an "athlete" any day.

INSox56
03-20-2006, 10:50 AM
He's killing our speculation for a White Sox Wednesday conspiracy...

MisterB
03-20-2006, 10:51 AM
I guess Brian Anderson can rest easy now. :cool:

Stat-wise, this guy looks like last year's Damaso Marte - about as many hits as innings, lots of strikeouts and almost as many walks - for about a quarter the price.

wilburaga
03-20-2006, 10:55 AM
Wow, the Mariners are up to their arses in Sox busts. I would say biggest bust I've ever seen for the Sox, but it's as much of a case of Schueler era over-hyping, which ran absolutely rampant for many years, especially with pitchers: Brian West, Aaron Myette, Kip Wells, Corwin Malone, Jason Stumm..etc. I mean Borchard was a great athlete/football player with great "tools," but did he truly warrant all those grand expectations? I'm far from a scout, but give me a baseball player over an "athlete" any day.

And speaking of busts, with the sole (and not particularly glowing) exception of Kip Wells, that's how I would categorize every Sox 1st round draft pick since the Himes era. Let's hope Anderson and Fields break this trend.

W

Rooney4Prez56
03-20-2006, 10:56 AM
He was the biggest waste of a $5 million signing bonus ever!

At least he won't leave empty-handed.

SOXintheBURGH
03-20-2006, 10:57 AM
Good luck, Joe. I hope you and Carl take down the FOBBs in the AL West. :cool:

RoobarbPie
03-20-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm far from a scout, but give me a baseball player over an "athlete" any day.

Well, we got another "athlete" back in this deal. Thornton played more basketball than baseball in college.

It sounds like he can throw hard - hopefully Coop can work his magic with this guy and get him to control it.

ondafarm
03-20-2006, 11:12 AM
I think Joe has more class than to bash the White Sox organization. While I'm sure he wasn't happy about moving back and forth between Chicago and Charlotte, I never heard of him saying anything stupid about it. I'm happy for him that the Sox managed to make a trade for him and get something back. Hopefully Coop can get inside this guys head and settle him down. My only real question is:



Why wasn't this done on Wednesday?

voodoochile
03-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Thornton's walks worry me more than anything. Hope Coop can help out there. Not impressed with a relief pitcher with a 1.68 career WHIP.

Well at least Cotts doesn't have to be the LOOGY and that strengthens the rest of the bullpen dramatically.

Edit: well maybe not. His career split against lefties has an OPS of .854...:o::(:

DaleJRFan
03-20-2006, 11:28 AM
Thornton's walks worry me more than anything. Hope Coop can help out there. Not impressed with a relief pitcher with a 1.68 career WHIP.

Well at least Cotts doesn't have to be the LOOGY and that strengthens the rest of the bullpen dramatically.

Edit: well maybe not. His career split against lefties has an OPS of .854...:o::(:

Yea, looks like lefties hit him as hard as righties...

in 05 against lefties: 26.1 IP, 27 Hits, 7 HR, 18 BB, 29 K, 4.78 ERA

spongyfungy
03-20-2006, 11:29 AM
he's on the score

listen to the score right now. (http://tuner1.dc1.sonixtream.com/playlists/670thescore/670thescoreWSCRAM.asx)

Fake Chet Lemon
03-20-2006, 11:34 AM
Gotta give Kenny some credit. Borchard had a decent enough spring, some other GMs would have forced him onto the team to save some face. Kenny has the stones to just move on.

lostletters
03-20-2006, 11:35 AM
This is good for the Sox and good for Joe Borchard. Joe Borchard will get to be on a MLB roster and earn his way up.

Also it looks like the White Sox might be breaking camp with two lefties (Logan and Thorton). While Thorton may not be that great, he does not seem any worse then Marte or Viz, which is not bad for a bottum of the bullpen guy. Plus he has major league experience. Now I think we have a surplus of lefties in the pen as I see the bullpen being split 50/50 with lefties and righties.

SBSoxFan
03-20-2006, 11:39 AM
Also it looks like the White Sox might be breaking camp with two lefties (Logan and Thorton).
Could Thorton actually make the team? Gotta love the 97 mph fastball, but not all the walks. Seems he needs to get his control worked out in the minors first.

spluta7913
03-20-2006, 11:41 AM
Just curious, but doesnt borchard hold record for longest blast at the cell, i thought he does and did it a few years ago after a call up? It was a bomb to right center i believe.

spongyfungy
03-20-2006, 11:47 AM
Just curious, but doesnt borchard hold record for longest blast at the cell, i thought he does and did it a few years ago after a call up? It was a bomb to right center i believe.

504 foot homer. 08/30/2004 Longest home run in US Cellular Field history.

Slats
03-20-2006, 11:47 AM
Joe Borchard traded to the Mariners

:bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

salty99
03-20-2006, 11:48 AM
Yeah I was at that game. That was the longest home run in a game that I have ever seen. Absolutely incredible!

alohafri
03-20-2006, 11:52 AM
I knew there was some magic left in that St. Jude candle!

bennyw41
03-20-2006, 12:03 PM
What number was he wearing this spring?

tebman
03-20-2006, 12:04 PM
Yeah I was at that game. That was the longest home run in a game that I have ever seen. Absolutely incredible!
I heard all about that homer, but haven't seen it. How far is 504 feet at USCF? On the concourse, on the wall behind the concourse?

Just curious.

Wheelhouse
03-20-2006, 12:05 PM
A Mariners fan passing by here.

Thornton - Borchard is a swap by both teams of busted prospects who are out of options and who were going to cut in a couple of weeks if they didn't get traded.

Thornton stuck with the Marienrs last year because he was out of options. He's a left hander with a 97-mph fastball, Unfortunately, the fastball is straight and he can't put it over the plate consistently. He gets a decent number of strikeouts, and gives uip an atrocious number of walks and an absurd amount of homeruns.

Last year the Mariners didn't want to give up on a lefty early round draft pick with a 97 mph arm (never mind that his minor league track record said the most he might be is a mediocre reliever). The Mariners figured that if they tried to send him to AAA, he would get claimed on waivers, so they kept him on the 25-man.

Thornton got mostly mop up duty - the kind of work you would give a Rule 5 pick who doesn't belong on a MLB roster but you have to keep around because the old team would take him back if you tried to assign him. And Thornton mostly sucked in that role. When he had a an inninig or so when he wasn't wild, he was moderately effective. But he could lose it at any time, and when he "lost it" (or when he "never had it" in the first place) he either couldn't throw a strike, or started serving up centered, belt-high, straight-as-an-arrow 97 mph fastballs. Batters would just wait for him to fall behind in the count, then look for that meatball.

This spring he wasn't showing that he hadn't improved at all on last year, so he was a goner if he wasn't traded, just as Borchard was going to be for the Sox.

If any of you want to talk about this with a comparable group of Mariners fans, you should visit SportSpot (http://www.sportspot.net/forums/index.php?showforum=1)

David Cameron at USS Mariner (http://www.ussmariner.com) will also likely have some review of the trade up in an hour or so.

chisoxmike
03-20-2006, 12:06 PM
I heard all about that homer, but haven't seen it. How far is 504 feet at USCF? On the concourse, on the wall behind the concourse?

Just curious.

landed on the concourse.

twsoxfan5
03-20-2006, 12:13 PM
"Joe Better Stay Out Of Our Business, He Better Stay Out Of White Sox Business.":d:

1951Campbell
03-20-2006, 12:13 PM
Well, maybe Joe will catch on in Seattle. He sure didn't here.

tebman
03-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by tebman
I heard all about that homer, but haven't seen it. How far is 504 feet at USCF? On the concourse, on the wall behind the concourse?

Just curious.

chisoxmike: landed on the concourse.
Thanks -- I didn't have a feel for distance to the concourse.

Now when Thome hits 10 or 15 out there, we'll know how far it is. :tongue:

twentywontowin
03-20-2006, 12:19 PM
I heard all about that homer, but haven't seen it. How far is 504 feet at USCF? On the concourse, on the wall behind the concourse?

Just curious.

Deep, very deep onto the concourse. I was hoping one day he would swing for the ads above the concourse.

I've seen him hit a few pretty deep in batting practice as well. Too bad he could never do this for us in a game.

Jerko
03-20-2006, 12:20 PM
Yeah I was at that game. That was the longest home run in a game that I have ever seen. Absolutely incredible!

That damn ball went right over my head and I was standing behind the last row of seats out there. I figured with Borch up I wouldn't miss anything, so I was concentrating on getting a nice hot pepper/cheese balance onto the nacho I was eating, and then I heard the crack of the bat and by the time I picked up the ball, it was hitting the back wall in right field on one bounce. My buddy ran for it and was gonna play it on the carom, but it rattled around in a doorway back there and some little kid sacrificed his ICEEE and make a nice sliding grab. Security came around and wanted to give the kid some Sox stuff in exchange for the ball.

Lip Man 1
03-20-2006, 12:26 PM
The first of what I think will be a busy week of wheeling and dealing by Kenny changing the Sox bullpen.

I anticipate one more move (Oscar Villaralli - sorry about the spelling) and maybe two. (Juan Cruz??)

Lip

Unregistered
03-20-2006, 12:33 PM
Here's a quote from that M's board:
But hey - at least we got rid of Thornton (http://php_source/ss_player_profile.php?id=player_id). That's like we were just handed a free win in the standings.

mjharrison72
03-20-2006, 12:34 PM
A Mariners fan passing by here.

Thornton - Borchard is a swap by both teams of busted prospects who are out of options and who were going to cut in a couple of weeks if they didn't get traded.
Welcome, and thanks for giving us the low-down... hopefully it works out for both teams.

Dick Allen
03-20-2006, 12:37 PM
Well, it looks like we didn't get a thing for Borchard. From the looks of what is being said about Thornton, if Cooper can work magic with this guy, then Cooper should be getting paid as much as Konerko:D: .

RoobarbPie
03-20-2006, 12:39 PM
Looking at the USS Mariner website, I saw this:

"Alert reader Aditya Sood pointed out that yesterday Matt Thornton pitched for the cycle and then some in getting three outs:
1 HR
1 3B
2 2B
2 1B"

:o::o::o::o:

VenturaSoxFan23
03-20-2006, 12:42 PM
At least they got something for him in a trade, instead of just flat-out cutting him.

sullythered
03-20-2006, 12:44 PM
I wonder if Thorton ever got cut from a Mexican League team.

kittle42
03-20-2006, 12:44 PM
This is another one of those trades where the fans of each team say the same thing - "Thank goodness our piece of crap player is gone...don't know much about this other guy, but 'maybe we can turn him around.'"

My guess - Borchard will still stink and will struggle to make a possible last-place team in the West. This Thornton guy will get booed out of US Cellular.

And the world will maintain its orderly balance.

kidmccarthy
03-20-2006, 12:47 PM
I think they will look at him and try to work with him for the next two weeks, and decide if he makes the team based on what Boone Logan does. If Logan stays strong the next week and a half, I think he is a lock. This will only push him to work harder. I think Ozzie will take 11 pitchers instead of throwing in a garbage lefty just for another option.

DrCrawdad
03-20-2006, 12:48 PM
I wonder if Thorton ever got cut from a Mexican League team.

:redneck:supernana::bandance::supernana::redneck

Now that's funny. Sad, but true and funny.

Best wishes to you Light Tower Power.

A. Cavatica
03-20-2006, 12:49 PM
This proves that Seattle was really after Borchard in the Garcia deal. Why, Kenny, why?

Huisj
03-20-2006, 12:55 PM
Maybe Thornton will find himself with the change of scenery and a new coach. I believe he grew up in southwest Michigan, and I sort of remember hearing about him play at Grand Valley State University near Grand Rapids, so maybe playing back in the midwest instead of out west could help him.

Then again, maybe that's all just wishful thinking. Time will tell I suppose.

MVP
03-20-2006, 12:57 PM
Hopefully a change of address does both of these players some good. I still have a feeling Borchard can be a productive hitter somewhere, but it's clear he was out of chances to do that here with the Sox. (He may not even get a chance in Seattle. They have a decent OF and DH.) Anyway, at least we're getting back a lefthander with a good fastball, all be it, a straight fastball with no control.

BanditJimmy
03-20-2006, 12:57 PM
The report on Thornton so far, I don't see a difference between him and Marte (the Marte down the stretch last season).


This guy has more velocity on the fast ball.


If Cooper figures this guy out, we need to build him a statue next to Pudge.

Chez
03-20-2006, 01:01 PM
Both Borchard and Thornton were out of options with their old clubs. Does being traded resurrect an option? Is Thornton still out of options?

Wheelhouse
03-20-2006, 01:03 PM
This is another one of those trades where the fans of each team say the same thing - "Thank goodness our piece of crap player is gone...don't know much about this other guy, but 'maybe we can turn him around.'"

My guess - Borchard will still stink and will struggle to make a possible last-place team in the West. This Thornton guy will get booed out of US Cellular.

And the world will maintain its orderly balance.

I don't think Mariners fans have any illusions about turning other teams pieces of crap into anything less offensive. Would that the Mariners Front Office understood that better!! :D:

Matt Lawton starts the season on steroid suspension. I suspect that Borchard will fill Lawton's spot on the roster for that time, then the Mariners will make a decision about Borchard. (I suspect they'll send Borchard through waivers and try to assign him to AAA ball.) That enables them to avoid burning an option year for Mike Morse, whom the Mariners are converting to a utility player. They want Morse to play almost full time in AAA ball, becoming more acclikated to OF play.

If Morse can develop as a utility guy and his bat develops decently, he might bring enough offensively to carve out a three or four year career as a bench guy and pitchhitter. Otherwise. you'll see him either on the waiver wire or a part of a similar deal when he runs out of options.

Wheelhouse
03-20-2006, 01:07 PM
Both Borchard and Thornton were out of options with their old clubs. Does being traded resurrect an option? Is Thornton still out of options?
Nope. Options are determined from years of service, and changing clubs doesn't change the determination. Both guys go onto the other team's 25-man roster, and any move off the 25-man roster puts the guy through irrevocable waivers.

Chez
03-20-2006, 01:09 PM
Thanks for the knowledge, Wheelhouse. So it looks like Thornton makes the big club and the Boone Logan experiement gets shelved for the moment.

maurice
03-20-2006, 01:14 PM
Chalk one up for the folks who said that Borchard's trade value = warm bucket of spit.

Good luck in Seattle, LTP.

ohiosoxfan12
03-20-2006, 01:20 PM
So do you guys think Thornton makes the 40-Man roster or play AAA?

longshot7
03-20-2006, 01:23 PM
Thanks for the knowledge, Wheelhouse. So it looks like Thornton makes the big club and the Boone Logan experiement gets shelved for the moment.

No, Logan's on this team. They'll take both.

ChiSoxRowand
03-20-2006, 01:26 PM
No, Logan's on this team. They'll take both.

There is no way we keep Logan and Thornton. You guys seem to forget we have Cotts.

Chez
03-20-2006, 01:28 PM
There is no way we keep Logan and Thornton. You guys seem to forget we have Cotts.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

santo=dorf
03-20-2006, 01:29 PM
Thanks for the knowledge, Wheelhouse. So it looks like Thornton makes the big club and the Boone Logan experiement gets shelved for the moment.
If Thorton continues pitching the way he has, I'd rather see a rookie like Boone Logan get the shot.

sox1970
03-20-2006, 01:32 PM
I'll guess this will be the bullpen come 12 days from now:

McCarthy
Redding
Politte
Logan
Cotts
Jenks

SoLongFrank
03-20-2006, 01:37 PM
I'll guess this will be the bullpen come 12 days from now:

McCarthy
Redding
Politte
Logan
Cotts
Jenks
That's why Kenny traded a hot-hitting Cactus league slugger like Borchy for a seasoned LHer. Compare that bullpen to the Twins & Tribe & start your nail-biting.

SoLongFrank
03-20-2006, 01:49 PM
There is no way we keep Logan and Thornton. You guys seem to forget we have Cotts.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7212&type=pitching3&three=1
An odd stat. About 91 IP for his ML career & yet 11 IP at USCF. Did pretty good at ALC parks.

But I agree only 1 will make it because Pods being questionable means they need a deeper bench. Widger(C), Ozuna (2B), Cintron (SS), Mak(UF), Gload (OF). They needed to wait on Gload's injury before making this trade. He's fine.

DrCrawdad
03-20-2006, 01:50 PM
That's why Kenny traded a hot-hitting Cactus league slugger like Borchy for a seasoned LHer. Compare that bullpen to the Twins & Tribe & start your nail-biting.

Did you forget to use teal? 'Cos any reference to Borchard as a hot hitter must be sarcastic.

Hey, where's VIC (Vashphal)?

goofymsfan
03-20-2006, 01:54 PM
Matt can be a good pitcher when he doesn't let his head get in the way. When he doesn't think too much (Bull Durham referance here), he can throw strikes. When he starts to think too much he starts to aim the ball. He's the type of pitcher that can't aim his pitches. They have good movement to them when he just lets them rip. I think working with a new pitching coach will help him out. I was hoping that Chavey (the M's new pitching coach) would have had more time to work with him. Matt really needs to loosen up, he gets so uptight it's not even funny.

I'm going to miss Matt and hope that the change of scenery will do him well. He is from the Midwest and as someone mentioned went to school in Michigan.

TDog
03-20-2006, 01:57 PM
I'm waiting for someone to post a poll on guessing which 2005 Sox player will have the most home runs in 2006. My vote wouldn't go for Willie Harris.

I don't expect the Mariners will put Borchard, Everett and Reed in the same outfield, but if it happens at the Cell, it would make for an interesting thread.

Wheelhouse
03-20-2006, 02:04 PM
I'm waiting for someone to post a poll on guessing which 2005 Sox player will have the most home runs in 2006. My vote wouldn't go for Willie Harris.

I don't expect the Mariners will put Borchard, Everett and Reed in the same outfield, but if it happens at the Cell, it would make for an interesting thread.
Anothet twist on this would be Borchard at the Cel, facing Thornton and getting all of one of Thornton's juicy 97-mph straight-balls. Borchard could break his own distance record - provided, of course, that Sexson didn't catch a Thornton meatball first.

Jjav829
03-20-2006, 02:08 PM
Goodbye, Joe Borchard. Hello pitcher version of Joe Borchard.

KRS1
03-20-2006, 02:08 PM
Matt's got Marte syndrome, great arm with huge potential, but is sucking thus far this ST. On the other hand I would much rather see him on this team than Lopez(who Ive hated from the get go) or Almanza. Honestly, if this guy can't find the strike zone and were going after him for his mid-90's fastball, I would rather have seen Reynoso up here because he at least was having a good spring and not giving up runs like candy at Halloween. Oh well Joe, here's to you having a good career, hopefully you brought us something useful, and for also being a class act during your time with our org.:gulp:

StockdaleForVeep
03-20-2006, 02:11 PM
If this is true.......

"Celebrate good times come on!"
:gulp: :supernana: :supernana::cheers::party::dancers::moonwalk:

http://centerclick.org:81/previews/archive/simpsons/p.al_gore_book.mov.jpg
"I will"

AZChiSoxFan
03-20-2006, 02:13 PM
So when does the Joe Borchard appreciation thread start?

soxtalker
03-20-2006, 02:17 PM
Has anyone heard anything about Thorton's personality (e.g., work ethic, openness to coaching, etc.). A lot of people seem to suggest that Borchard hung around for so long because of the big initial investment. But I have had the impression that another big reason was that he was considered a hard worker and didn't complain much. In fact, the only thing close to a complaint seemed to come earlier this year, when he was mulling a move back to football. That was pretty muted.

Jjav829
03-20-2006, 02:17 PM
So when does the Joe Borchard appreciation thread start?

I think the real question is; Who wants to bear Borchard's children?

Jjav829
03-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Continuing along the lines of crappy players the Sox have added recently, we apparently signed ex-Royal Mark Quinn to a minor league contract. So, uh, yeah...

Flight #24
03-20-2006, 02:24 PM
Matt's got Marte syndrome, great arm with huge potential, but is sucking thus far this ST.

I dunno, mainly because Marte's problem was confidence or to be blunter, "shrinkage".

Thornton may be a headcase, but unless he's wetting himself in tight situations, he won't have "Marte syndrome".

soxfan26
03-20-2006, 02:39 PM
Continuing along the lines of crappy players the Sox have added recently, we apparently signed ex-Royal Mark Quinn to a minor league contract. So, uh, yeah...

Well, he's no Juan Gonzalez. :redneck

White Sox Randy
03-20-2006, 02:49 PM
I'm willing to bet that Borchard has a better major league career than Thornton does. This guy looks like crap.

goofymsfan
03-20-2006, 02:58 PM
Has anyone heard anything about Thorton's personality (e.g., work ethic, openness to coaching, etc.). A lot of people seem to suggest that Borchard hung around for so long because of the big initial investment. But I have had the impression that another big reason was that he was considered a hard worker and didn't complain much. In fact, the only thing close to a complaint seemed to come earlier this year, when he was mulling a move back to football. That was pretty muted.

Matt has a good work ethic and is open to coaching. He is a good guy, just a bit uptight.

KRS1
03-20-2006, 03:00 PM
From the looks of Matt's graph's he started to figure things out a bit during the second half last season. Mainly is GB/FB completely reversed from extreme flyball before the break, to a good GB pitcher after. The problem with him is his control(his BB/9 and his HR/9 are both off the charts and I'm guessing the two are closely related), as he misses his spots big and gives up HR's. A major leaguer can hit 95, and if you miss your spot they can hit it hard. I dont know if this was the best we could get for Borch, but I'd more nervous with him than the rookie Logan out on the mound. IMO, Coop really has his work cut out for him with this one.

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=1918&position=P&page=4&type=full

goofymsfan
03-20-2006, 03:00 PM
I dunno, mainly because Marte's problem was confidence or to be blunter, "shrinkage".

Thornton may be a headcase, but unless he's wetting himself in tight situations, he won't have "Marte syndrome".

Matt has been known to come through in tight situations...he's also been known to blow up because he's wound too tight. I think the move will do him good. I'm just sad to see him leave the M's. I know I'm in the minority of Mariner fans that like him. But I got to watch him in AAA as well.

JohnBasedowYoda
03-20-2006, 03:25 PM
Ahhhh sweet release.

http://carnegieinstitution.org/legacy/exhibits/ault_exhibition/images/easter/easter_island_head_full.jpg:LTP
What? I think they look alike:smile:

Wheelhouse
03-20-2006, 03:43 PM
Matt has been known to come through in tight situations...he's also been known to blow up because he's wound too tight. I think the move will do him good. I'm just sad to see him leave the M's. I know I'm in the minority of Mariner fans that like him. But I got to watch him in AAA as well.
Power arm. No command. Little movement. Can't handle pressure.

Lots of Little Leaguers have a name for a guy like that - "Coach".

MVP
03-20-2006, 03:46 PM
Goodbye, Joe Borchard. Hello pitcher version of Joe Borchard.


That's scary! I'd rather have the hitter version of Borchard- striking out every fourth at bat with an occassional home run in between than the pitcher version of Borchard- walking every fourth hitter and giving up homeruns.

Huisj
03-20-2006, 04:00 PM
I dunno, mainly because Marte's problem was confidence or to be blunter, "shrinkage".

Thornton may be a headcase, but unless he's wetting himself in tight situations, he won't have "Marte syndrome".

Just remember that Marte was no proven commodity when the Sox first traded for him in '02. He was an unproven lefty with a good arm and not much of a major league track record, and he came in and was one of the best lefty relievers in the AL for his first two years in Chicago. Now, I suppose Marte hadn't had the control problem history back then that Thornton seems to have, but in other ways, it seems like a fairly similar trade situation.

bafiarocks03
03-20-2006, 04:04 PM
Thank God....:D:
Happy Dance anyone!!!?? :bandance: :bandance: :moonwalk:

gbergman
03-20-2006, 04:05 PM
So long. And i remember last week people laughed when i said the Sox were getting rid of him.

KRS1
03-20-2006, 04:14 PM
Just remember that Marte was no proven commodity when the Sox first traded for him in '02. He was an unproven lefty with a good arm and not much of a major league track record, and he came in and was one of the best lefty relievers in the AL for his first two years in Chicago. Now, I suppose Marte hadn't had the control problem history back then that Thornton seems to have, but in other ways, it seems like a fairly similar trade situation.


Yes, but it also didnt take Damaso until he was 27 to make a big league roster.

RedFoxSoxFan
03-20-2006, 04:18 PM
I bet my Joe Borchard Baseball Cards will skyrocket in price now!!!!
Thank God we got rid of this albatross. I also agree with everyone, why was this not done on a wednesday? Does that mean we will get the short end of the deal? Not that I am superstitious.

:tealtutor:

what happened to that "MY EYES!!!!!!" image i enjoyed so much?

soxlover
03-20-2006, 04:22 PM
:tealtutor:

what happened to that "MY EYES!!!!!!" image i enjoyed so much?

I bet my Joe Borchard Baseball cards will skyrocket in price now!!!!!!

Better?

y2j2785
03-20-2006, 04:29 PM
He Gone!!!!


:tomatoaward

SouthSide_HitMen
03-20-2006, 04:45 PM
I'll guess this will be the bullpen come 12 days from now:

McCarthy
Redding
Politte
Logan
Cotts
Jenks

:supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana:

Ol' No. 2
03-20-2006, 05:00 PM
From the article on the Sox website:
By Kenny Williams' estimation, left-hander Matt Thornton has been on the White Sox general manager's radar screen for two years. On Monday, Williams zeroed in and got his man.I'm ready to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt. He's earned it. It's not like they were going to get much for Borchard anyway.

goon
03-20-2006, 05:02 PM
Weak arm. No command. Little movement. Can't handle pressure.

Lots of MLB Players have a name for a guy like that - "Fan".



fixed. in all honesty though, i'm glad the sox are taking a chance on a guy who has the right "tools" yet has some mental adjustments to make, rather than adding borchard to the roster or just cutting him in the near future. borchard wasn't a fit in this organization, if you can trade him for a guy that has some good stuff, but might not pan out, what the hell. if kenny has confidence in cooper to help the kid out then that's all you need.

soxinem1
03-20-2006, 05:09 PM
Biggest Bust in Sox history?

For the money, I would say yes.

Bigger than Navarro?

But as a draftee, sure, he's up there. But Ruffcorn got a good bonus too (though nowhere as big as Joe's), considering the era which he was drafted.

At least Joe hit a few HR's, Ruffcorn never won a game.

soxinem1
03-20-2006, 05:11 PM
There is no way we keep Logan and Thornton. You guys seem to forget we have Cotts.

Why not? The 90 Sox had three lefties all year, and it was one of the best bullpens in their history.

Stuff wise, these three are pretty well up there.

IowaSox1971
03-20-2006, 05:24 PM
Thornton was about the best possible lefty reliever we could have gotten for Borchard. Lefty relievers are an extremely valuable commodity, and proven ones are tough to get in exchange for a prospect who has not panned out. I'm not expecting great things out of Thornton, but as other posters have mentioned, Marte had unimpressive career stats before we acquired him in 2002. Let's hope history repeats itself.

Our bullpen is looking a little shaky right now, and that really could be costly for us this season. I'm not sure if Hermanson will pitch much, Jenks is overweight, and Politte and Cotts are coming off career years. We just have to hope that McCarthy and Thornton or Logan can pick up some of the slack. Otherwise, it could be tough to repeat.

KRS1
03-20-2006, 05:32 PM
I'm not sure if Hermanson will pitch much, Jenks is overweight, and Politte and Cotts are coming off career years. We just have to hope that McCarthy and Thornton or Logan can pick up some of the slack. Otherwise, it could be tough to repeat.


Am I the only one who's sick of this overblown "career year" crap? It could be the most overused phrase on this site right behind,"having said that". I'm going to say this now, and feel free to revisit it later, Politte will continue his studly 05' ways, Cotts will only continue get better over his career and improve his already fantastic numbers of 05', and Jon Garland will also improve on his breakout season. It might not happen, but it is just as likely an event IMO as these total regressions people have picked up from the prognosticators.

Huisj
03-20-2006, 05:33 PM
Yes, but it also didnt take Damaso until he was 27 to make a big league roster.

That's also true, but Marte was probably in pro ball for 6 or 7 years by the time he did make the bigs briefly at age 24. Thornton has now been in pro ball for about that amount of time, and the years before that he was more of a basketball player than a baseball player. When he was drafted in '98, I remember reading something about him that said he was appealing physically because of his low-mileage arm, though they also mentioned that he was very raw and might need lots of seasoning.

Ol' No. 2
03-20-2006, 05:40 PM
Am I the only one who's sick of this overblown "career year" crap? It could be the most overused phrase on this site right behind,"having said that". I'm going to say this now, and feel free to revisit it later, Politte will continue his studly 05' ways, Cotts will only continue get better over his career and improve his already fantastic numbers of 05', and Jon Garland will also improve on his breakout season. It might not happen, but it is just as likely an event IMO as these total regressions people have picked up from the prognosticators.No one who knows what he's talking about would ever apply the label "career year" to any player who is either A) under the age of 28, or B) has less than 4 years in the majors. They're supposed to get better during this period. Almost every year should be a career year.

Politte, OTOH, doesn't fit that description. Last year was well above average for him, and he may well regress somewhat. But it's not like he was a slug before last year, so if he slips back toward his normal 3.5-4.0 ERA, I won't complain too much.

goon
03-20-2006, 06:02 PM
Am I the only one who's sick of this overblown "career year" crap?


nope, i'm with you 100%.

Black Jack
03-20-2006, 06:50 PM
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/7212.jpghttp://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/6849.jpg

This has got to be the 2 ugliest players swapped in a long while.

delben91
03-20-2006, 07:09 PM
If Cooper figures this guy out, we need to build him a statue next to Pudge.

Well, he's working on it. Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060320&content_id=1357100&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

Second question, second paragraph...

But pitching coach Don Cooper told me Monday morning that he has followed this hurler for a couple of seasons, even looking at tape of him last year, and already sees one change that needs to be made with his mechanics.

thomas35forever
03-20-2006, 07:20 PM
Finally, a club Borchard can relate to.

As for Thornton, at least we'll have someone to fill the gap if Hermanson does retire.

TomBradley72
03-20-2006, 07:28 PM
Well, he's working on it. Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060320&content_id=1357100&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

Second question, second paragraph...

If Coop turns this guy around..he gets the next "Chuck Norris" thread...

rookie
03-20-2006, 07:36 PM
If Coop turns this guy around..he gets the next "Chuck Norris" thread...

:D:

buzz90
03-20-2006, 07:47 PM
Thank you Mariners...again!

Jacob Nelson Fox
03-20-2006, 08:09 PM
Well, good luck to Joltin' Joe in Seattle. It certainly didn't work out for him here, but I admire the way he seemed to keep a good attitude and kept plugging away trying to get better.

At end of last season and this ST, I thought it looked like he might be getting a clue........Here's to you, Joe :gulp:

jabrch
03-20-2006, 08:14 PM
I'll give management credit...

JR paid a huge signing bonus to a guy who was supposed to be worth it.

We made a run at it with him, and gave him a lot of chances.

He just never could put enough wood on the ball to make it.

Oh well...Good Luck Joe.

The Dude
03-20-2006, 08:22 PM
I for one am very disappointed with this trade, but was not surprised with all the WSI celebration with it. :cool: I was hoping Borchard would make the team this year and share time with Anderson as he settles in and who knows....maybe break out into the stud they always hoped he would be. But we have to cut our losses eventually if they had no plans of him making the team this year. Hopefully Gload can stay healthy and be a decent part of the team in 2006.

rdivaldi
03-20-2006, 08:46 PM
Am I the only one who's sick of this overblown "career year" crap?

Nope, I'm right there with you. It's a ridiculous phrase to use, as no one here can predict the future performance of a player.

:cleo

"I see career years...."

Tragg
03-20-2006, 09:37 PM
Matt's got Marte syndrome, great arm with huge potential, but is sucking thus far this ST. We can only pray that he has "Marte syndrome" - pre 2005, our most productive reliever overall for 3 years.

I don't know why people were so incensed with Borchard - he only had 300 ML at bats, hit well last September (in few attempts), this spring, and toward the end of the last minor league season.
I hope Gload makes the team, but we could sure use a little more power off that bench.

SOX ADDICT '73
03-20-2006, 09:41 PM
Quote from the story on the Sox official site:
"(Borchard) has been frustrated here, and understandably so," Williams said. "There may have been more of an opportunity to get him in the lineup had we not been in win mode constantly since he has been here."
Ouch. In other words, if the team had been in "suck mode", Joe would've fit right in.

Tragg
03-20-2006, 09:41 PM
No one who knows what he's talking about would ever apply the label "career year" to any player who is either A) under the age of 28, or B) has less than 4 years in the majors. They're supposed to get better during this period. Almost every year should be a career year.
Unless you're on the White Sox. Then you're not worth a bag of balls. :cool: See Garland in 04, Crede through July of 05 and Borchard this year (speaking of conventional wisdom, not your specific position), all players that we should sell low.

Williams is usually right in his evaluation of our minor leaguers so this deal is probably no great shakes.

Banix12
03-20-2006, 10:15 PM
Quote from the story on the Sox official site:

Ouch. In other words, if the team had been in "suck mode", Joe would've fit right in.

It's a fair assessment though. He didn't really do much to distinguish himself at AAA, at least until the last two months of last season. The only teams that can really afford to give a guy like that, high on potential/low on results, a ton of time in the MLB to develop is a team that knows that it is going to lose.

mike squires
03-20-2006, 10:21 PM
Good luck to Joe. I hope he gets more playing time and by doing so build his confidence up and improves his play. There are few Sox player's careers I follow after they leave. Joe will be one. I always liked him and felt sorry for him when he was not able to meet expectations. I will keep my autographed ball out on the shelf for awhile.

Lprof
03-20-2006, 10:28 PM
Maybe somebody has already said this and I just missed it, but I am gathering that this was simply a dump of Borchard; Thornton sounds like a kerosene-on-a-fire type of lefty reliever, much like that bum Walker from last year. My guess is that Logan will beat him out.

QUESTION: I know spring training doesn't mean squat, especially the way Kenny and Ozzie are finding pitchers I have never heard of to come in and blow late leads, but has the team that had the worst record in spring training EVER gone on to win the World Series, or even a pennant? I wonder.

KRS1
03-20-2006, 10:37 PM
Thornton sounds like a kerosene-on-a-fire type of lefty reliever, much like that bum Walker from last year. My guess is that Logan will beat him out.
Yeah, but the hardest Walker was ever pounding the leather was the high 80's. At least Matt has some steam to speak of(his tops last year was 97). Not that I care to chose between two guys who can't find the strike zone, but I think a guy who throws mid-90's has a better chance of getting batters to swing at his misses.



Also, I have a question for anyone in the know. Thornton is out of options also correct?

Banix12
03-20-2006, 10:53 PM
Good luck to Joe. I hope he gets more playing time and by doing so build his confidence up and improves his play. There are few Sox player's careers I follow after they leave. Joe will be one. I always liked him and felt sorry for him when he was not able to meet expectations. I will keep my autographed ball out on the shelf for awhile.

I gotta think it's going to be tough for Joe to find AB in the Mariners crowded OF situation. Suzuki, Ibanez, Reed are all penciled in as starters for the near future. Lawton is already on the roster as the primary backup. If Borchard makes their team he looks to be a 5th OF/defensive sub for Ibanez.

I kinda wanted him to go to the marlins since he would probably get some extensive playing time there. Though from what I have heard, the Marlins didn't even offer anything as good as Thornton.

I wish him the best for the future but I get the feeling the Mariners might not be his only stop this year.

Banix12
03-20-2006, 10:58 PM
Yeah, but the hardest Walker was ever pounding the leather was the high 80's. At least Matt has some steam to speak of(his tops last year was 97). Not that I care to chose between two guys who can't find the strike zone, but I think a guy who throws mid-90's has a better chance of getting batters to swing at his misses.



Also, I have a question for anyone in the know. Thornton is out of options also correct?

Yes, Thornton is out of options

SOXintheBURGH
03-20-2006, 11:05 PM
http://centerclick.org:81/previews/archive/simpsons/p.al_gore_book.mov.jpg
"I will"



:rolling:
:roflmao:
:rolling:
:roflmao:
:rolling:
:roflmao:

Thank you. Marvelous.

Parrothead
03-20-2006, 11:46 PM
Did not read this entire thread, cause it is too long and I am too lazy right now.....anyway for all who think trading JB is bad due to his potential and "good" spring remember a guy named Julio Rameriz?:mad:

munchman33
03-21-2006, 12:40 AM
I'll give management credit...

JR paid a huge signing bonus to a guy who was supposed to be worth it.

We made a run at it with him, and gave him a lot of chances.

He just never could put enough wood on the ball to make it.

Oh well...Good Luck Joe.

For the money they invested, I don't think 300 or so major league at-bats spread out over a few years was quite the chance he should have been given. But we've been strong in the outfield as long as he's been around, so this had to be done. Don't be surprised if he finally develops though...

Banix12
03-21-2006, 01:07 AM
For the money they invested, I don't think 300 or so major league at-bats spread out over a few years was quite the chance he should have been given. But we've been strong in the outfield as long as he's been around, so this had to be done. Don't be surprised if he finally develops though...

I don't think the money really should enter the conversation about how much playing time you give a guy at the MLB level. Though I know it does. It's not like he really tore up the AAA level and completely deserved a promotion. If he ever had a whole season where he hit like .290-.300 down there he'd have gotten a chance like Anderson is getting now.

If he had played really well down there the sox would have made an opening for him. Instead he had injury problems and was inconsistant so this is what happened.

I wish him luck, it's going to be tough for him to prove he has worth since ABs now will probably be few and far between. Though in many ways I'm really not that sad as I think about it. His below average play up here in an odd way may have contributed to the makeup of the championship team. If he had played well in 2003 he probably would have taken Rowand's spot when Rowand struggled that year and we might not have gotten to see him break out in 2004. If he had shown anything at the plate in his 2004 callup, the sox might have given him a shot in 2005 and the sox might not have Dye.

In a way everything worked out the best for the sox, but it just worked out badly for Borchard.

IowaSox1971
03-21-2006, 02:42 AM
Am I the only one who's sick of this overblown "career year" crap? It could be the most overused phrase on this site right behind,"having said that". I'm going to say this now, and feel free to revisit it later, Politte will continue his studly 05' ways, Cotts will only continue get better over his career and improve his already fantastic numbers of 05', and Jon Garland will also improve on his breakout season. It might not happen, but it is just as likely an event IMO as these total regressions people have picked up from the prognosticators.


It's totally unrealistic to expect Politte to have the same type of year that he had in 2005. If he does that again, great. I'll certainly take it. But in the past, he has had trouble keeping his ERA under 4.00.

As for Cotts, it's going to be tough to improve on, or even just duplicate, his numbers of 2005. These guys were so great last year, that if they have ERAs of 3.00 this season it will be a bad year by comparison.

kevin57
03-21-2006, 08:08 AM
Papers today are reporting that Kenny and Coop have been looking at and wanting this Thornton guy for a couple of years. If they think they can do something with him, then I'm :bandance: .

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 09:17 AM
A. It's not Borchard's fault that the Sox organization completely missed on forecasting his potential. Who wouldn't take $ 5.3 million ?

B. Apparently, Thornton couldn't take the pressure in Seattle. The rabid viciousness of the Seattle press, the fast paced lifestyle of Seattle's coffeehouses and grunge mania - and lastly the pressure of pitching in blowouts for a last place baseballl team. The poor bastard.

Lucky we got him.

Rocky Soprano
03-21-2006, 09:32 AM
Papers today are reporting that Kenny and Coop have been looking at and wanting this Thornton guy for a couple of years. If they think they can do something with him, then I'm :bandance: .

Doesn't Kenny always say that when he signs/trades for a guy?

I hope he really means it but kinda funny when he always says that same thing. :D:

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 09:33 AM
A. It's not Borchard's fault that the Sox organization completely missed on forecasting his potential. Who wouldn't take $ 5.3 million ?

B. Apparently, Thornton couldn't take the pressure in Seattle. The rabid viciousness of the Seattle press, the fast paced lifestyle of Seattle's coffeehouses and grunge mania - and lastly the pressure of pitching in blowouts for a last place baseballl team. The poor bastard.

Lucky we got him.

Ditto for Contreras, Jenks, Loaiza, the list goes on. The simple fact that Coop's had his eye on him for a while and has already ID'd a mechanical change or 2 tells me this could be a steal.

If he turns Thornton around, Coop needs to be re-upped instantly at near-Ozzie $$$.

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 09:34 AM
Doesn't Kenny always say that when he signs/trades for a guy?

I hope he really means it but kinda funny when he always says that same thing. :D:

Yeah, but with Kenny, it seems like it might actually be true. He's a pitbull that way (apparently).

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 09:40 AM
Ditto for Contreras, Jenks, Loaiza, the list goes on. The simple fact that Coop's had his eye on him for a while and has already ID'd a mechanical change or 2 tells me this could be a steal.

If he turns Thornton around, Coop needs to be re-upped instantly at near-Ozzie $$$.


There is no comparing Contreras, Jenks and Loaiza to Thornton. Guys that were great but faltered are not the same as 29 year olds that have had NO SUCCESS.

If this guy becomes a good pitcher under Cooper, the Sox should put a statue of Cooper right on 35th street that's as big as the ballpark !

Unregistered
03-21-2006, 09:49 AM
There is no comparing Contreras, Jenks and Loaiza to Thornton. Guys that were great but faltered are not the same as 29 year olds that have had NO SUCCESS.

If this guy becomes a good pitcher under Cooper, the Sox should put a statue of Cooper right on 35th street that's as big as the ballpark !
Well according to the Trib, Coop specifically asked KW to take a look at Thornton cause he wanted him on the team. As reported, they've been looking at the guy for 2 years now - so they must know something we don't.

I know, it's shocking... :o:

http://www.todayscacher.com/2004/aug/img/blog-sox.jpg
"But I watched EVERY GAME last year! How could they know more than me?!? I mean, clearly, if you look at his Spring Training stats, and factor in his VORP and SAT scores..."

EastCoastSoxFan
03-21-2006, 09:53 AM
Doesn't Kenny always say that when he signs/trades for a guy?

I hope he really means it but kinda funny when he always says that same thing. :D:
I'd rather have him say that than say that we're trading for a guy he just noticed yesterday.
In the business world they call it "due diligence."
I remember when the Contreras / Loiaza trade happened laughing about how much the Yankees had bought into Loiaza's reputation based on a few great outings he had for the Sox against the Yanks in '03 and early '04 even though he had clearly lost some velocity and command.
Hell, Torre even named him to the '04 All-Star team even though Buehrle was having a much better season up to that point.
I'm sure Kenny, Coop, and the scouts are constantly tracking players they think can help the team (or that Coop thinks he can work with -- and I think Coop's track record speaks for itself)...

TomBradley72
03-21-2006, 09:57 AM
QUESTION: I know spring training doesn't mean squat, especially the way Kenny and Ozzie are finding pitchers I have never heard of to come in and blow late leads, but has the team that had the worst record in spring training EVER gone on to win the World Series, or even a pennant? I wonder.

I thing the ST performance is 100% irrelevent....pitchers who won't be on the team pitching against hitters who won't make the other team in front of a few thousand fans when everyone knows the outcome is meaningless. Pods, Garcia, Vazquez have hardly played. Their record at the end of April (high correlation between April record and making the post season) is all that matters.

TomBradley72
03-21-2006, 10:05 AM
no comparing Contreras, Jenks and Loaiza to Thornton. Guys that were great but faltered are not the same as 29 year olds that have had NO SUCCESS.
I agree it will be a miracle if this guy pans out.

But Contreras, Loaiza had very mediocre MLB numbers before coming to the White Sox....Jenks had been released by the Angels with no appearances in the major leagues.

voodoochile
03-21-2006, 10:13 AM
I agree it will be a miracle if this guy pans out.

But Contreras, Loaiza had very mediocre MLB numbers before coming to the White Sox....Jenks had been released by the Angels with no appearances in the major leagues.

I always wondered why the Sox couldn't get more guys in the pen with pop on their pitches. I would look around the league and all these other teams had guys throwing fast heavy pitches and the Sox didn't have them. Now they have rescued one and have the chance to pick up another one cheap.

Give Coop a couple of months with this kid and see what happens. Heck, they have a couple of guys who could start the season on the DL to open up a roster spot for Thornton so they can hold on to him.

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 10:14 AM
[quote=Unregistered]Well according to the Trib, Coop specifically asked KW to take a look at Thornton cause he wanted him on the team. As reported, they've been looking at the guy for 2 years now - so they must know something we don't.


Did the Sox want Joe Borchard, too ? Did they give him 5 million and 300 hundred thousand dollars as an upfront bonus just to sign a contract ? Did they want him that much ?

Were the Sox wrong about him ? Was KW wrong about Todd Ritchie ? Danny Wright ? Ben Davis ? Kevin Walker ? D'angelo Jimenez ? Miguel Olivo ? Jeff Abbott ? ON AND ON AND ON.....

ONE MORE TIME : MATT THORNTON SUCKS.

California Sox
03-21-2006, 10:18 AM
There is no comparing Contreras, Jenks and Loaiza to Thornton. Guys that were great but faltered are not the same as 29 year olds that have had NO SUCCESS.

If this guy becomes a good pitcher under Cooper, the Sox should put a statue of Cooper right on 35th street that's as big as the ballpark !

Lefties who throw in the mid-90s don't grow on trees. I'm not going to say for sure that he's going to help us but the track record of late bloomers with good arms becoming serviceable relievers is pretty decent. Look at Scott Eyre, Derreck Turnbow, Tanyon Sturtze, hell, even Todd Van Poppel had a decent year or two. Thornton's like taking a flyer on Alan Embree (who's actually had success from time to time). Considering we weren't going to get much for Borchard regardless, he's intriguing.

voodoochile
03-21-2006, 10:19 AM
Did the Sox want Joe Borchard, too ? Did they give him 5 million and 300 hundred thousand dollars as an upfront bonus just to sign a contract ? Did they want him that much ?

Were the Sox wrong about him ? Was KW wrong about Todd Ritchie ? Danny Wright ? Ben Davis ? Kevin Walker ? D'angelo Jimenez ? Miguel Olivo ? Jeff Abbott ? ON AND ON AND ON.....

ONE MORE TIME : MATT THORNTON SUCKS.

Well there you have it... time to go blow my head off...:rolleyes:

Shall we start naming the players that KW was right about? Shall we start naming the players he brought in who directly led to the WS championship last season? Shall we start naming the players he has traded who have done exactly squat in the majors since KW traded them?

Chicken Dinner
03-21-2006, 10:19 AM
[quote=Unregistered]Well according to the Trib, Coop specifically asked KW to take a look at Thornton cause he wanted him on the team. As reported, they've been looking at the guy for 2 years now - so they must know something we don't.


Did the Sox want Joe Borchard, too ? Did they give him 5 million and 300 hundred thousand dollars as an upfront bonus just to sign a contract ? Did they want him that much ?

Were the Sox wrong about him ? Was KW wrong about Todd Ritchie ? Danny Wright ? Ben Davis ? Kevin Walker ? D'angelo Jimenez ? Miguel Olivo ? Jeff Abbott ? ON AND ON AND ON.....

ONE MORE TIME : MATT THORNTON SUCKS.

So does Joe Borchard.

thepaulbowski
03-21-2006, 10:19 AM
Did the Sox want Joe Borchard, too ? Did they give him 5 million and 300 hundred thousand dollars as an upfront bonus just to sign a contract ? Did they want him that much ?

Were the Sox wrong about him ? Was KW wrong about Todd Ritchie ? Danny Wright ? Ben Davis ? Kevin Walker ? D'angelo Jimenez ? Miguel Olivo ? Jeff Abbott ? ON AND ON AND ON.....

ONE MORE TIME : MATT THORNTON SUCKS.
:rolleyes:

Hey Genius, who just won the World Series?

Your posts provide me the comedic relief I need during a day.

Unregistered
03-21-2006, 10:47 AM
Looks like White Sox Randy is this year's Homefish. Only a matter of time before he gets his own "Dark Cloud Thread" to be updated throughout the year.

:darkcloud:

Flight #24
03-21-2006, 10:53 AM
There is no comparing Contreras, Jenks and Loaiza to Thornton. Guys that were great but faltered are not the same as 29 year olds that have had NO SUCCESS.

If this guy becomes a good pitcher under Cooper, the Sox should put a statue of Cooper right on 35th street that's as big as the ballpark !

Jenks was great & faltered before coming to the Sox?:?:

It's crazy talk, I know - but I'll trust Coop & KW over fans and even supposed "experts" like BP.

soxtalker
03-21-2006, 12:33 PM
[quote=Unregistered]Well according to the Trib, Coop specifically asked KW to take a look at Thornton cause he wanted him on the team. As reported, they've been looking at the guy for 2 years now - so they must know something we don't.


Did the Sox want Joe Borchard, too ? Did they give him 5 million and 300 hundred thousand dollars as an upfront bonus just to sign a contract ? Did they want him that much ?

Were the Sox wrong about him ? Was KW wrong about Todd Ritchie ? Danny Wright ? Ben Davis ? Kevin Walker ? D'angelo Jimenez ? Miguel Olivo ? Jeff Abbott ? ON AND ON AND ON.....

ONE MORE TIME : MATT THORNTON SUCKS.

You may be right. KW has made plenty of bad trades. I used to tremble each time he tried a major trade. However, even when I felt that way 2, 3, 4, ... years ago, I wasn't terribly concerned about minor/low-risk trades or FA acquisitions. Almost from the beginning of his tenure as GM, he seemed to turn a significant number of these into good finds.

Unlike many WSI members, I really was pulling for Joe Borchard to make the team, and I'm a little sad to see him go. But we have a surplus of outfielders in the system. This is the same reason that KW was able to trade Jeremy Reed. (I was unhappy with that trade at the time, and I still think that Reed could be a major star. But it became apparent fairly quickly that I was wrong on Olivo, and Garcia has been a contributor to the depth of our starting pitching.) We need some lefty options, and Thornton is a relatively low-risk gamble.

One difference now compared to earlier years is that KW probably doesn't have to stick with a guy like Thornton very long if he doesn't pan out. He's got less apparent holes to fill and more resources -- money and probably even desirable minor leaguers -- to go after other replacements. I bet that KW and the scouting staff have been compiling a target list of other possible replacements sitting in the systems of other teams.

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 12:46 PM
yeah, I'm with you. I was rooting for Borchard to play better but I don't care that he's gone. It's probably an even trade.

I just want Kenny to quit messing around trying every long shot there is and just go get a solid bullpen guy and put it to rest before it becomes a big problem down there.

ode to veeck
03-21-2006, 01:00 PM
Joe Borchard Appreciation Thread?

Really, all we have to show for that massive bonus is a equally massive home run.

and the massively dropped flyball at the scubbies game last saturday

anewman35
03-21-2006, 01:12 PM
I just want Kenny to quit messing around trying every long shot there is and just go get a solid bullpen guy and put it to rest before it becomes a big problem down there.

If you were GM, what "solid bullpen guy" would you get?

White Sox Randy
03-21-2006, 01:19 PM
Firstly, he should have done it earlier. I had no problem with him trading away Marte and Vizcaino. But, we have to replace one of them. Now, Hermie's gone.

There have been about 20 veteran relievers that have changed teams this offseason. I see that he was trying to get Juan Cruz from Oakland but now they want too much. Cormier is still available. He's waited too long and it's tough now.

Maybe our starters will go 7 or 8 on a regular basis. Maybe will get lucky and Logan and Thornton will be serviceable.

maurice
03-21-2006, 02:21 PM
I don't know about the comparisons to Contreras, et al.
I'd be happy if this guy turned into the next Scott Schoeneweis.

SOecks
03-21-2006, 02:32 PM
I don't know about the comparisons to Contreras, et al.
I'd be happy if this guy turned into the next Scott Schoeneweis.

So would I, but hopefully without being a pud like Schoenweis was.

illini81887
03-21-2006, 02:38 PM
This guy bet me $5 today in english class that Joe Borchard will hit 20HR's this year:o: :supernana: :supernana:

DSpivack
03-21-2006, 03:34 PM
This guy bet me $5 today in english class that Joe Borchard will hit 20HR's this year:o: :supernana: :supernana:

If he gets enough playing time, you might be out $5. Borchard will easily hit 20 HRs if he gets enough playing time....just hitting about .180 with 150+ K's in the process.

Banix12
03-21-2006, 05:26 PM
This guy bet me $5 today in english class that Joe Borchard will hit 20HR's this year:o: :supernana: :supernana:

Take that bet in a second. There's no way he gets enough playing time, at least as long as he stays on the mariners. he usually hits a homer about 1 every 18-20 ABs. So say he gets 140 AB, which is quite a bit for a 5th OF. He'd be on pace to hit around 7.

Also figure that since he's the only right handed hitting OF in the Mariners OF he might see more time from that side of the plate against some tough lefties. His power is a bit weaker from that side of the plate.

To hit 20 he's got to get at around 400 AB. No team in baseball is going to give him 400 MLB AB this season. The only team that might is the Marlins but even that might be a stretch.

He gone
03-21-2006, 07:34 PM
"I don't want to sit here and say anything negative about my time there," Borchard said Tuesday. "I think the best thing to say is that it did run its course. It was just a good time for everyone to move on."

That's what Joe had to say about the trade.

Brian26
03-21-2006, 08:40 PM
Doesn't Kenny always say that when he signs/trades for a guy?

I hope he really means it but kinda funny when he always says that same thing. :D:

I was thinking the same thing when I saw that quote in the paper. Also (and let me preface this by saying I'm a huge KW supporter), do you notice how KW said that Coop and his scouts wanted Thornton...not that KW wanted Thornton.

soxguy
03-21-2006, 10:50 PM
Let me repeat JOE BORCHARD sucks. He was always dead weight, and now he will be sombody elses dead weight. BOUT TIME!!!!

SoLongFrank
03-22-2006, 03:19 PM
Again you need to look at the simplicity of the deal. Were the White Sox likely to claim Thorton off waivers? No. There was no way a LH with a power arm was not going to be claimed prior to the White Sox getting a chance.

Can the White Sox still claim Borchard off waivers if they want him? Yes. If he doesn't make Seattle's bench he has to clear waivers. There's a chance he would still be available if the White Sox want him.

That to me makes this a no-brainer trade. The only downside is that the White Sox might be complacent with the pen because of it. Kenny should still be looking for help. ST has shown us that our pen is weaker than the Tribe's & the Twins.

miker
03-22-2006, 03:49 PM
If Joe B. had hit them out as often as Matt Thornton gave 'em up things would be different...who knows, maybe we got a diamond in the rough.

Good luck Joe, hope you didn't spend all of that signing bonus!

mweflen
03-22-2006, 05:53 PM
Wait a minute, I just logged on... Where's the Joe B appreciation thread?

starboy0
03-23-2006, 05:42 AM
Good luck, Joe. Every time I pass by that spot on the concourse where your 504 landed I point it out to friends.

SoLongFrank
03-26-2006, 11:37 AM
Lawton is serving a 10 gm suspension for testing + for steriods. Kind of ironic his penalty is so weak given the media's rage over Game of Shadows.

Reed broke his wrist. People of Seattle, give a big hardy welcome to the man known as "Light-Tower-Power", Joseph Borchard. The former Stanford Cardinal All-American QB will be manning our spacious CF in America's biggest & best ball park.

:cool: Good Luck Joe!

Thorton get your act together. You miserable bag of bones! You cost us LTP! You better be worth it.

santo=dorf
03-26-2006, 11:50 AM
If he gets enough playing time, you might be out $5. Borchard will easily hit 20 HRs if he gets enough playing time....just hitting about .180 with 150+ K's in the process.
Please.

Nothing but a low BA and strikeouts come easy for Borchard.

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-26-2006, 03:28 PM
I heard that with Reed injured, Seattle might Ichiro moving to CF and Borchard could land the starting RF job.

Banix12
03-26-2006, 03:45 PM
I heard that with Reed injured, Seattle might Ichiro moving to CF and Borchard could land the starting RF job.

That doesn't appear to be the first option right now. They'll consider it but it looks like they would prefer to keep him in Right Field.

Scotty Love
03-27-2006, 11:11 AM
Joe didn't have much of an impact here but I feel we will hear from him again. I wish him well. I mean, he was never a head case or a trouble maker, atlease I didn't hear much about it if he was, Good Luck Joe ,were not all haters.