PDA

View Full Version : Joe Borchard- starting CF?


MVP
03-17-2006, 09:22 AM
Is anybody else thinking that Joe Borcahrd has so far has earned the right to be the Sox starting CF on opening day? His hitting has been much better than either Anderson or Owens this spring. I know that Anderson was the favorite coming into spring training, but so far Borchard has been much more impressive. I say they make him the starting CF on opening day and give him last chance to stick with the Sox and live up to his potential.

CHIsoxNation
03-17-2006, 09:22 AM
No.

chisoxmike
03-17-2006, 09:25 AM
:rolling:

DrCrawdad
03-17-2006, 09:26 AM
Is anybody else thinking that Joe Borcahrd has so far has earned the right to be the Sox starting CF on opening day? His hitting has been much better than either Anderson or Owens this spring. I know that Anderson was the favorite coming into spring training, but so far Borchard has been much more impressive. I say they make him the starting CF on opening day and give him last chance to stick with the Sox and live up to his potential.

IMHO IF Joe has a better ST than Anderson then give the starting job to Joe.

Madvora
03-17-2006, 09:27 AM
Joe hasn't earned anything. The only reason he's still there is because of money.

Is there any other player in major league history that would be given so many changes after doing so much of nothing?

TomBradley72
03-17-2006, 09:32 AM
Only if you're enjoying this:

:bong:

and this:

:gulp:

veeter
03-17-2006, 09:34 AM
I think Joe could MAYBE make the team, but not as the starting CF. Anderson is better defensively and will come around. If you watch closely, you'll notice Brian usually puts the bat on the ball. That's something you can't teach. Joe still strikes out a lot. Eventually, the hits will start falling for Anderson.

infohawk
03-17-2006, 09:53 AM
I have a hard time believing that Borchard would out-hit Anderson over 600 or so at-bats.

champagne030
03-17-2006, 09:58 AM
I have a hard time believing that Borchard would out-hit Anderson over 600 or so at-bats.

LTP would probably out homer BA over 600 AB's, but wouldn't play nearly as good defense, would hit for a significantly lower average and would break Adam Dunn's single season K record. Also, that's the only time Dunn and LTP should be mentioned in the same sentence unless you spell it Done.

spiffie
03-17-2006, 10:04 AM
As I clicked off the front page, all I saw was "Joe Borchard- starting" and I had one reaction:
:bundy

Seriously, my weekend plan is right there in right-center, and I don't think I could handle 27 games of Borchard in CF without being driven nuts.

Tekijawa
03-17-2006, 10:06 AM
Also, that's the only time Dunn and LTP should be mentioned in the same sentence unless you spell it Done.

What if I say:

"LTP Dunn Sruck out again!"

Would that work?

palehozenychicty
03-17-2006, 10:09 AM
sorry, brotha. can't do that.

ondafarm
03-17-2006, 10:15 AM
Joe will get more than a few starts in CF this season. Ozzie rests his outfielders about one game a week and will be protecting Anderson even more probably especially against powerful righties. Both Ozzie and KW have mentioned that the Sox can throw a mostly lefty lineup out there so Anderson will be rested on those days.

lostletters
03-17-2006, 10:19 AM
No.
Anderson is pretty much assured the job. And as it was mentioned, the kid does not strike out much.

Also Anderson is WORLDS better then Borchard defensively, and honestly that is what is keeping Borchard from any roster spot. Borchard is terrible in the outfield every time I have seen him play, and I really do not see him improving much.

DrCrawdad
03-17-2006, 10:24 AM
Borchard making push to overtake Gload

By Scot Gregor (sgregor@dailyherald.com)



Daily Herald Sports Writer (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=167791)
Posted Friday, March 17, 2006
http://www.dailyherald.com/images/spacer.gif <!-- OAS_AD('Middle1'); //--> http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/800/1134/0/oasc03.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/Creatives/default/empty.gif (http://oascentral.dailyherald.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.dailyherald.com/1162695692/Middle1/default/empty.gif/34326137343131363434313831336230?)

TUCSON, Ariz. — Ross Gload is still leading the race for the reserve outfield job on the White Sox’ 25-man roster, but Joe Borchard is gaining ground...


“Joe is still in the mix,’’ manager Ozzie Guillen said. “He keeps hitting the ball. If he keeps playing like that, he’s going to make it interesting.’’


GO JOE! GO!

Lip Man 1
03-17-2006, 11:44 AM
The only thing Joe has 'earned' is inclusion in a deal for relief pitching.

Lip

Baby Fisk
03-17-2006, 11:47 AM
The only thing Joe has 'earned' is inclusion in a deal for relief pitching.

Lip
Hopefully LTP and Bajenaru will share the same legacy: they brought good trade value to the Sox. :cool:

soxinem1
03-17-2006, 01:25 PM
No.
Anderson is pretty much assured the job. And as it was mentioned, the kid does not strike out much.

Also Anderson is WORLDS better then Borchard defensively, and honestly that is what is keeping Borchard from any roster spot. Borchard is terrible in the outfield every time I have seen him play, and I really do not see him improving much.

I'm not sure about that, because Anderson whiffed 115 times in 118 AAA games, plus his 12/0 K/BB with the Sox last year would lead me to believe he'll be whiffing more than enogh this year too.

Don't get me wrong, I think he'll be a good ML player, but he'll swing through the air a lot too.

voodoochile
03-17-2006, 01:33 PM
It may come down to what they need more. Borchard is a legitimate 3 position OF backup. Gload plays 1B which Mackowiak can do in a pinch - probably Widger too.

DaleJRFan
03-17-2006, 01:33 PM
Hopefully LTP and Bajenaru will share the same legacy: they brought good trade value to the Sox. :cool:

Baj has pitched fairly well for the DBacks thus far in ST. I'm just glad I won't have to see that flat slider at USCF again this year.

TDog
03-17-2006, 01:34 PM
Joe hasn't earned anything. The only reason he's still there is because of money.

Is there any other player in major league history that would be given so many changes after doing so much of nothing?

Buddy Bradford comes to mind, at least in Sox history. And for some reason, he kept coming back after being traded to other teams.

Of course, as much as people around here hate Joe Borchard, they will say it means nothing that he has a higher career batting average than Brian Anderson.

voodoochile
03-17-2006, 01:36 PM
Buddy Bradford comes to mind, at least in Sox history. And for some reason, he kept coming back after being traded to other teams.

Of course, as much as people around here hate Joe Borchard, they will say it means nothing that he has a higher career batting average than Brian Anderson.

The Devil you don't know is always better than the Devil you do know...:wink:

I think Gload brings more in trade value, so hopefully he keeps hitting...

MisterB
03-17-2006, 02:14 PM
Of course, as much as people around here hate Joe Borchard, they will say it means nothing that he has a higher career batting average than Brian Anderson.

.191 in 298 AB vs. .176 in 34 AB in the majors.

Based on Anderson's cumulative .301 minor league average vs. Borchard's .266, I'd be willing to say Anderson will exceed that .191 by the time he accumulates 300 ML AB's.

Banix12
03-17-2006, 03:24 PM
Joe hasn't earned anything. The only reason he's still there is because of money.

Is there any other player in major league history that would be given so many changes after doing so much of nothing?

There are a lot of first round picks and top prospects that got multiple chances based on "potential" an no results. Billy Beane, Shawn Abner, Ben Davis to a lesser extent.

Even if he has a better spring training, Joe Borchard has 1700 AB in AAA that say he is no more than an average hitter at best. 20-40 AB in spring training is not enough evidence to give him a starting job in the face of overwhelming evidence of inadequate play at the AAA level. And yes I know he had a strong couple of months at the end of last season in AAA but he has done that before. His M.O. has largely been of inconsistant play. Hitting the lights out of the ball at one point and then can't hit off a tee the next. The good points get offset by the bad points and he ends up around average, at least at AAA.

A good spring training might get him a backup spot. And if he does well in the backup role then people can talk about starting him again. He's got to work his way back up.

maurice
03-17-2006, 03:35 PM
Anderson's AAA stats: .295 AVE, .360 OBP, .469 SLG
Borchard's AAA stats: .263 AVE, .331 OBP, .466 SLG

Borchard was worse across the board, even though he's older and more experienced, and even though Anderson was playing with a plate in his wrist. It's extremely likely that this trend will continue.

eriqjaffe
03-17-2006, 03:50 PM
Is there any other player in major league history that would be given so many changes after doing so much of nothing?Sure, there are injuries to consider , but...

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/darren_dreifort_autograph.jpg

...comes to mind. He made $13,400,000 last year and didn't throw a single pitch.

KRS1
03-17-2006, 03:50 PM
Wow, from Borchard Vs. Gload for the 25th man, to Borchard starting in CENTERFIELD!!!!! That job is no doubt BA's, but I do think Borchard should definitely make this team. His D hasnt been the best so far, but who's has? We should carry 2 OF's over 4 IF's IMO(especially when Gload position is 1b which is covered by PK, Thome, and Mackowiak), and since Mackowiak looks to be the primary back-up in CF, Joe will only have to cover the corners which is a plus(although I do think he could play decent CF if called upon). Call me crazy, but I saw the Bucky Jacobsen signing as a sort of bye bye to Gload, as he looks to be the guy we can keep in the minors and would call up in emergency now since Ross is out of options.

TomBradley72
03-17-2006, 05:29 PM
It may come down to what they need more. Borchard is a legitimate 3 position OF backup. Gload plays 1B which Mackowiak can do in a pinch - probably Widger too.

I noticed on the White Sox website they have a page with the White Sox "depth chart". Borchard is listed as the 2nd string LF and RF (ahead of Machowiak), 4th string CF (behind Anderson, Machowiak and Owens).

Gload was listed as 3rd string 1B.

Realist
03-17-2006, 05:39 PM
Gload plays 1B which Mackowiak can do in a pinch - probably Widger too.
You forgot to mention Dye.

Buehrle Man
03-17-2006, 09:45 PM
lostletters,

First you say that Anderson does not strike out that much, which is completely wrong. He strikes out quite a lot. Then you say that Borchard is a terrible fielder and that is why he does not play, more so than for his hitting. Both of those statements are completely wrong and quite annoying. First of all, Anderson struck out 115 times in 448 AB's in AAA, plus 12 SO and 0 BB's in the Majors, while Borchard struck out 143 times in 494 AB's in AAA, plus two SO's and 2 BB's in the majors. Borchard also walked 50 times to Anderson's 44 in AAA, homered 29 times to Anderson's 15 in AAA and had 67 RBI's to Anderson's 57. So to say that Anderson is a way better hitter, is not true. Yes, Anderson will be a better player and Borchard has underachieved, but Borchard still could make it and I hope he does and I hope the same thing for Anderson.

As far as Borchard's fielding, he is not a prototypical CF, no, but he has the ability to play there and play it adequately. He is no butcher like Manny Ramirez and Sammy Sosa, by any means. He has great speed for a man his size, he can play all the outfield positions and 1st base and he has a great arm. He may never be as great as a fielder as Rowand or Anderson, but he is more than capable out in the field, at all outfield positions, but more so in the corners. That comment was completely wrong and unjustified.

What I do not get is your hatred for Borchard?? He may have underachieved, but he is a great person, has not complained one bit and is a hard worker. He is a model White Sox prospect that has not performed as well as he or we would have liked, but there is no reason to hate. I think you need to rethink your attitude towards this guy! Yes, he has been disappointing, but he has been a great person and someone that kids can look to for guidance and how to work in academics and athletics. He has worked as hard as he can and has always stood as a good teammate, good towards fans and a great person. He has never tried steroids, never cheated, nor has he done anything to make the Sox or Chicago look bad for drafting him. He could have been a real pain in the behind, when he was progressing well early in his career and was still held in the minors because of good outfield depth on the Major League Club. He never complained and always played hard. Maybe he will never make it, but he has been a good person, which is more than many athletes are in this age! Instead of bad mouthing Joe Borchard, why don't you hope he succeeds for the Sox, so they can either keep him with the club and he can help us to the next World Series title, or so the Sox can trade him for some much needed bullpen help. I think he deserves a break from us Sox fans because we are World Champs, at this moment, he did help the team a lot in his brief callup last fall (batted over .400 and had 1 or 2 big pinch hits) and he is still under 28, which means he still has some talent and could still become a decent Major League starter or even a good bench player/ pinch hitter for this years' run at the title.

We need to be supportive, now, more so than ever because we have the title we wanted and the organization has bucked up big time ($96 million payroll), so the Sox can go back and get us another deserving title. Give the Sox a break and Joe Borchard because they both deserve it! If you want to laugh at a team and it's busts, all you have to do is look at the Flubs with Corey Patterson, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Mike Harkey, Ty Griffin, Earl Cunningham and many other busts, that were considered can't miss and far more talented than Joe Borchard. Now that is funny!! It is not that hard either, all you have to do is read the Cubune,www.chicagocubs.com and MLB.com, plus they are only around 20 miles north of the Sox and they are on TV, even more than our Champs. If you need to wish bad on someone or some team, look to them, it is a lot more fun!!

Captian Ron
03-17-2006, 09:48 PM
HAHAHAHAHA :kneeslap: :rolling:

Tragg
03-17-2006, 11:32 PM
Joe hasn't earned anything. The only reason he's still there is because of money.

Is there any other player in major league history that would be given so many changes after doing so much of nothing?

He's had 298 major league at bats.

DoItForDanPasqua
03-17-2006, 11:46 PM
Borchard has a better chance of starting for the Chicago Rush than the Chicago White Sox.

Nelson Foxtrot
03-18-2006, 12:22 AM
I never followed Borchard very closely, but have seen him come as close to "crushing" singles as possible over the years. I think if he shortened his swing, focused more on contact, and tried to muscle line drives over the infield or into the gaps, he could have a successful career somewhere, and the homeruns, even though not as plentiful, would still come. He's a fairly young, cheap switch-hitter with power and decent defense, and could make a solid pinch-hitter/4th outfielder in the NL, and could get a crack at starting on some bad teams, but certainly not for the defending champs. I think he still needs time in the majors to develop, even as a back-up, so I'm hoping Kenny can find a proven veteran 5th outfielder through a small trade or from the scrap heap after spring training cuts.

He gone
03-18-2006, 12:48 AM
After hitting .417 in 7 games last year, he's batting .310 so far this spring. Maybe, just maybe, he's finally figured it out :D:

I don't know about starting centerfielder, but 4th outfielder coming over the bench. He is a switch hitter with power.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/386947.jpg

Banix12
03-18-2006, 12:51 AM
lostletters,

First you say that Anderson does not strike out that much, which is completely wrong. He strikes out quite a lot. Then you say that Borchard is a terrible fielder and that is why he does not play, more so than for his hitting. Both of those statements are completely wrong and quite annoying. First of all, Anderson struck out 115 times in 448 AB's in AAA, plus 12 SO and 0 BB's in the Majors, while Borchard struck out 143 times in 494 AB's in AAA, plus two SO's and 2 BB's in the majors. Borchard also walked 50 times to Anderson's 44 in AAA, homered 29 times to Anderson's 15 in AAA and had 67 RBI's to Anderson's 57. So to say that Anderson is a way better hitter, is not true. Yes, Anderson will be a better player and Borchard has underachieved, but Borchard still could make it and I hope he does and I hope the same thing for Anderson.

As far as Borchard's fielding, he is not a prototypical CF, no, but he has the ability to play there and play it adequately. He is no butcher like Manny Ramirez and Sammy Sosa, by any means. He has great speed for a man his size, he can play all the outfield positions and 1st base and he has a great arm. He may never be as great as a fielder as Rowand or Anderson, but he is more than capable out in the field, at all outfield positions, but more so in the corners. That comment was completely wrong and unjustified.

What I do not get is your hatred for Borchard?? He may have underachieved, but he is a great person, has not complained one bit and is a hard worker. He is a model White Sox prospect that has not performed as well as he or we would have liked, but there is no reason to hate. I think you need to rethink your attitude towards this guy! Yes, he has been disappointing, but he has been a great person and someone that kids can look to for guidance and how to work in academics and athletics. He has worked as hard as he can and has always stood as a good teammate, good towards fans and a great person. He has never tried steroids, never cheated, nor has he done anything to make the Sox or Chicago look bad for drafting him. He could have been a real pain in the behind, when he was progressing well early in his career and was still held in the minors because of good outfield depth on the Major League Club. He never complained and always played hard. Maybe he will never make it, but he has been a good person, which is more than many athletes are in this age! Instead of bad mouthing Joe Borchard, why don't you hope he succeeds for the Sox, so they can either keep him with the club and he can help us to the next World Series title, or so the Sox can trade him for some much needed bullpen help. I think he deserves a break from us Sox fans because we are World Champs, at this moment, he did help the team a lot in his brief callup last fall (batted over .400 and had 1 or 2 big pinch hits) and he is still under 28, which means he still has some talent and could still become a decent Major League starter or even a good bench player/ pinch hitter for this years' run at the title.

We need to be supportive, now, more so than ever because we have the title we wanted and the organization has bucked up big time ($96 million payroll), so the Sox can go back and get us another deserving title. Give the Sox a break and Joe Borchard because they both deserve it! If you want to laugh at a team and it's busts, all you have to do is look at the Flubs with Corey Patterson, Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Mike Harkey, Ty Griffin, Earl Cunningham and many other busts, that were considered can't miss and far more talented than Joe Borchard. Now that is funny!! It is not that hard either, all you have to do is read the Cubune,www.chicagocubs.com and MLB.com, plus they are only around 20 miles north of the Sox and they are on TV, even more than our Champs. If you need to wish bad on someone or some team, look to them, it is a lot more fun!!


I'll put you in the optimist pile.

You don't have to look to the Cubs, the sox have their own sorry history of top prospects doing nothing. I know you're just trying to deflect focus off Joe Borchard's faults but trying to deflect it into a cub bashing session is just kinda sad.

I also don't see what you construe as hatred of the man. I don't see anybody here talking ill of him as a person, including lostletters. A good number of us though don't think much of him as a baseball player and that's not bashing really. That's just stating the truth that he has been a disapointment. Many of us just feel he is no better than a AAA hitter because he hasn't given us much reason to believe that he could be better than that. I have no ill will toward Borchard as a person. I don't know him so I can't say what he's like but I hear nice things.

Being a great person is an admirable quality but it doesn't necessarily make you a better baseball player.

There was good OF depth in the sox organization while he was developing but not so much that they wouldn't have made a spot for him if Borchard had developed into a solid hitter. Rowand's job with the sox was hanging by a thread until 2004. If Borchard had put together a solid run in AAA in 2002 and 2003 there is a good chance that he would have been given a job and the sox might not have traded for Carl Everett when Rowand flopped at the start of 2003. If he had developed as a hitter in that stretch the sox might have even traded Lee or Maggs to give him a starting job. However he didn't develop well and had a couple of setbacks and now this is the situtation he is in.

Just because the sox are world series champs doesn't mean we have to cut him a break. I really don't see the logic there. Any player joining the world champion team should be subject to scrutiny. He had the benefit of the doubt for years and he lost it. I don't see any reason to give him a break. He has a reached a point where he has to earn a break.

You also can't draw any real conclusions off his callup last season. It was only a dozen or so ABs and pretty much all of his hits came off of middle relievers in garbage time. Some people can draw some optimism from his strong second half in AAA but as I have said before he's had strong stretches before.

And just because a guy is under 28 doesn't mean the player has talent and has a chance to be a good player. Usually, at least these days, if a player is 27 and still in the minors that means the window of opprotunity to get a foothold in the majors, at least as a starter, is probably closing. Sometimes a guy comes out of the blue and develops late, Matt Stairs being a prime example, but those guys are pretty rare.

Go ahead and root for him, fine by me. And if he makes the team I'll root for him as well. But ideally, just my opinion, I would rather not see him on the big club and would like to see a backup OF come from outside the organization right now.

TomBradley72
03-18-2006, 09:15 AM
He's 27 years old...no one hates him...based on expectations for him....he should be in his 3rd or 4th year in the majors...not the subject of debates around the 25 spot on the roster. Right now....with the investment we have in him, his performance late last year, and so far in spring training...I'd keep him.

A. Cavatica
03-18-2006, 10:20 AM
The 298 major league at-bats are underwhelming, but PK's first 224 at-bats weren't much better:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml

Of course it's *possible* that Joe will suddenly turn it around, but it's just not going to happen. I'd give him less than a 1% chance of becoming a better-than-average major league hitter.

Consider that PK was 21 and 22 when he had those 224 at-bats, and Joe is going to be 27. Also consider that PK was a Minor League Player of the Year, and Joe has pretty much sucked at the AAA level. And consider that PK struck out half as often.

Banix12
03-18-2006, 01:55 PM
The 298 major league at-bats are underwhelming, but PK's first 224 at-bats weren't much better:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml

Of course it's *possible* that Joe will suddenly turn it around, but it's just not going to happen. I'd give him less than a 1% chance of becoming a better-than-average major league hitter.

Consider that PK was 21 and 22 when he had those 224 at-bats, and Joe is going to be 27. Also consider that PK was a Minor League Player of the Year, and Joe has pretty much sucked at the AAA level. And consider that PK struck out half as often.

I have to agree. PK absolutely destroyed AAA pitching and Borchard as basically been an average to slightly below average down there. Even when PK struggled there was overwhelming evidence of his potential to hit for a reasonably good average in the major leagues.

4 years at AAA and getting cut from a mexican league team just do not instill me with a lot of confidence in the man.

The Tribune is reporting Florida is showing interest in Borchard based on his good play the last couple of weeks. That honestly would be the absolute best place for him to go if he were to try and snag a starting job because they are fairly weak right now in the OF. The team has no expectations to win this year and can afford to give him a lot of at bats to see if he can develop into something at the Major League Level. If he makes the sox he is probably going to only get 130-150 AB over the course of a MLB season. With Florida he could get somewhere in the 250-500 range.

Tragg
03-18-2006, 02:41 PM
The 298 major league at-bats are underwhelming, but PK's first 224 at-bats weren't much better:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/k/konerpa01.shtml

Of course it's *possible* that Joe will suddenly turn it around, but it's just not going to happen. I'd give him less than a 1% chance of becoming a better-than-average major league hitter.

Consider that PK was 21 and 22 when he had those 224 at-bats, and Joe is going to be 27. Also consider that PK was a Minor League Player of the Year, and Joe has pretty much sucked at the AAA level. And consider that PK struck out half as often.He had a good second half last year, had a good short call-up period, and has had a good spring. I just as soon find out if he's figured out the game, because we could use a power bat on the bench. Right now, it looks like 3 utility infielders.

You won't get a thing for him if you trade him anway - he's nearly 28 years old. But if he figured out to hit, he's figured it out, and some have figured it out at his age.

And we won a WS with Timo. It would be nearly impossible for him to be worse than Timo.
Like last year, all we asked of Garland was to outpitch Danny Wright. Still, people wanted to dump him.

Jjav829
03-18-2006, 03:08 PM
He might make a fine centerfielder...










...on the WSI softball team. Madvora, think about it. You might want to give him a call. :smile:

ondafarm
03-18-2006, 03:46 PM
I have to agree. PK absolutely destroyed AAA pitching and Borchard as basically been an average to slightly below average down there. Even when PK struggled there was overwhelming evidence of his potential to hit for a reasonably good average in the major leagues.


To be fair, Konerko played in the Pacific Coast League and specifically in Albuquerque. With that altitude and the park they played in, not murdering the pitching is a bad sign. Guys like Konerko who played nearly every game for nearly the entire game, have a huge advantage over the pitching. The Dodgers organization wanted it that way to establish confidence in its hitters. Charlotte is a death trap for budding hitters in comparison. Taking nothing away from Konerko, but comparing Konerko's minor league experience to Borchards is apples and oranges.

thomas35forever
03-18-2006, 03:52 PM
He might be smoking like a pistol now, but are you going to able to depend on him during the regular season when he becomes inconsistent again? My response: N-O.

A. Cavatica
03-18-2006, 04:37 PM
comparing Konerko's minor league experience to Borchards is apples and oranges.

Sure -- but even if you adjust for the leagues & ballparks, PK was a way better hitter at the AAA level. Charlotte's been our affiliate for a while now, and even Bryant Nelson was a more impressive hitter there.

Banix12
03-18-2006, 04:43 PM
Sure -- but even if you adjust for the leagues & ballparks, PK was a way better hitter at the AAA level. Charlotte's been our affiliate for a while now, and even Bryant Nelson was a more impressive hitter there.

He also hit well while he was in Indianapolis.

Banix12
03-18-2006, 04:55 PM
He had a good second half last year, had a good short call-up period, and has had a good spring. I just as soon find out if he's figured out the game, because we could use a power bat on the bench. Right now, it looks like 3 utility infielders.

You won't get a thing for him if you trade him anway - he's nearly 28 years old. But if he figured out to hit, he's figured it out, and some have figured it out at his age.

And we won a WS with Timo. It would be nearly impossible for him to be worse than Timo.
Like last year, all we asked of Garland was to outpitch Danny Wright. Still, people wanted to dump him.

Will you stop saying this. I know you dislike Timo but it's just not true. It's not "nearly impossible" for him to be worse. He can easily be worse than Timo. You're comparing a guy who once hit .290 at the MLB level (while playing at Shea Stadium) to a guy who hasn't shown the ability to hit that high since AA. Comparing a .263 AAA hitter to a .365 AAA hitter. In 2004 when both got 200 or more ABs for the Sox Timo hit .246 while Borchard hit .174.

If Borchard has finally figured it out then good for him but it is still entirely possible for him to continue with his poor play.

I also think the need for power on the bench is overrated. I actually see a greater need for an extra pinch runner with base stealing ability more than a power hitter. Tell me, is there anybody in the white sox everyday lineup you would even think of pinch hitting for to bring in Borchard? Maybe Pods on the rare moment when a homer is needed but other than that you aren't using him.

Jurr
03-18-2006, 05:08 PM
Will you stop saying this. I know you dislike Timo but it's just not true. It's not "nearly impossible" for him to be worse. He can easily be worse than Timo. You're comparing a guy who once hit .290 at the MLB level (while playing at Shea Stadium) to a guy who hasn't shown the ability to hit that high since AA. Comparing a .263 AAA hitter to a .365 AAA hitter. In 2004 when both got 200 or more ABs for the Sox Timo hit .246 while Borchard hit .174.

If Borchard has finally figured it out then good for him but it is still entirely possible for him to continue with his poor play.

I also think the need for power on the bench is overrated. I actually see a greater need for an extra pinch runner with base stealing ability more than a power hitter. Tell me, is there anybody in the white sox everyday lineup you would even think of pinch hitting for to bring in Borchard? Maybe Pods on the rare moment when a homer is needed but other than that you aren't using him.
You make some pretty good points. However, I've got a weird feeling about Borch. First of all, he has only gotten the last 4 or 5 years to concentrate 100% on baseball. Sometimes it takes time for guys to get it together. Look no further than Pods, who took YEARS to get into the bigs.

Second of all, you have to look at motivation versus talent. Borchard got offered a big sum of money to pass up football. He thought he had the world on his plate. Maybe he wasn't as motivated and hungry to get better as he should have been. Now, he's out of options. It looks like he's kicked his game up a notch. Maybe the kid has matured and has put in the time it takes to honestly progress as a ballplayer.

I could be totally off on this assessment, but I am getting this weird feeling that Sox fans will be lauding Borchard by the end of this season.

Banix12
03-18-2006, 06:21 PM
You make some pretty good points. However, I've got a weird feeling about Borch. First of all, he has only gotten the last 4 or 5 years to concentrate 100% on baseball. Sometimes it takes time for guys to get it together. Look no further than Pods, who took YEARS to get into the bigs.

Second of all, you have to look at motivation versus talent. Borchard got offered a big sum of money to pass up football. He thought he had the world on his plate. Maybe he wasn't as motivated and hungry to get better as he should have been. Now, he's out of options. It looks like he's kicked his game up a notch. Maybe the kid has matured and has put in the time it takes to honestly progress as a ballplayer.

I could be totally off on this assessment, but I am getting this weird feeling that Sox fans will be lauding Borchard by the end of this season.

It's not like he was not a solid ballplayer when he came out of college ball. When Borchard first came into the sox organization by all accounts he largely had his game together. His first two years were incredibly positive. In his second year out of college while in AA Borchard hit .295 avg, .384 OBP, and 27 HR. Borchard hit AAA though and his development just seemed to stall as he had trouble adjusting to better competition. When you compare that to Pods development it's actually an opposite trend since he struggled a lot until he hit AAA and put together a strong stint at that level.

By all accounts motivation has never been a problem. Throughout his stint in the minors his work ethic has been lauded as above reproach. Also from what I have read the money didn't go to his head. I've heard it many times that he didn't go out and buy big cars and houses after he got his bonus. He in fact was fairly humble with the money.

EDIT: I would also just point out that if the last couple months in AAA were Borchard getting it together, what does it say about his ability to make adjustments to pitching that it took him 3 1/2 years to adjust to AAA pitching? What does it say about how he will adjust from AAA pitching to MLB pitching, which is light years better than what he has faced in AAA?

He's not going to get the luxury of time if he struggles again up here and has trouble adjusting, at least he won't if he is playing on the bench for the sox.

MVP
03-18-2006, 09:09 PM
Consider the following:

1) Borchard has little or virtually no trade value because he is all out of minor league options. Any team that trades for Borchard must keep him on their major league roster for the entire season or risk losing him through waivers. Other teams, knowing this, will not be willing to give up anything of real value to get Borchard. (A good GM trades a player when his trade value is high, not when it's low.)

2) Borchard would not be the first, nor last player to figure things out at a later age. Based on what he did at the end of last season and so far this spring training, it's possible that he may have finally figured things out.

3) A limited bench role won't serve either Borchard or the Sox very much purpose. Borchard needs a lot of at-bats to be productive.

4) If Borchard truly outperforms Anderson this spring training, then Borchard deserves the opportunity to start. It's as simple as that. When in the world did Brian Anderson become such a sure-fire answer in centerfield anyway? Anderson is nothing more than a prospect himself. Half of the people on these message boards were crying about that exact same thing when Rowand was traded, remember?! If Anderson is truly ready, then I'll fully expect him to outperform Borchard. If Anderson can't outperform Borchard (as sorry of a player as some of you make Borchard out to be) then maybe Anderson himself is not ready either.

5) The Sox don't stand to lose anything if Anderson starts the year out in the minors. Anderson can be called up at any time and may even benefit from starting the year out in AAA.

6) On the other hand, the Sox do stand to lose out on a very productive slugger if indeed Borchard has finally has figured things out. Given the above, they don't have much to lose by finding out.

DrCrawdad
03-18-2006, 09:26 PM
Consider the following:

1) Borchard has little or virtually no trade value because he is all out of minor league options. Any team that trades for Borchard must keep him on their major league roster for the entire season or risk losing him through waivers. Other teams, knowing this, will not be willing to give up anything of real value to get Borchard. (A good GM trades a player when his trade value is high, not when it's low.)

2) Borchard would not be the first, nor last player to figure things out at a later age. Based on what he did at the end of last season and so far this spring training, it's possible that he may have finally figured things out.

3) A limited bench role won't serve either Borchard or the Sox very much purpose. Borchard needs a lot of at-bats to be productive.

4) If Borchard truly outperforms Anderson this spring training, then Borchard deserves the opportunity to start. It's as simple as that. When in the world did Brian Anderson become such a sure-fire answer in centerfield anyway? Anderson is nothing more than a prospect himself. Half of the people on these message boards were crying about that exact same thing when Rowand was traded, remember?! If Anderson is truly ready, then I'll fully expect him to outperform Borchard. If Anderson can't outperform Borchard (as sorry of a player as some of you make Borchard out to be) then maybe Anderson himself is not ready either.

5) The Sox don't stand to lose anything if Anderson starts the year out in the minors. Anderson can be called up at any time and may even benefit from starting the year out in AAA.

6) On the other hand, the Sox do stand to lose out on a very productive slugger if indeed Borchard has finally has figured things out. Given the above, they don't have much to lose by finding out.

I agree!!!

:supernana:

kevin57
03-18-2006, 09:28 PM
Joe may have (finally) earned a place on the roster, but no way he's starting CF. As already noted, his defensive 'skills" are not quite what you relish in that position.

Beer Can Chicken
03-18-2006, 09:34 PM
Will you stop saying this. I know you dislike Timo but it's just not true. It's not "nearly impossible" for him to be worse. He can easily be worse than Timo. You're comparing a guy who once hit .290 at the MLB level (while playing at Shea Stadium) to a guy who hasn't shown the ability to hit that high since AA. Comparing a .263 AAA hitter to a .365 AAA hitter. In 2004 when both got 200 or more ABs for the Sox Timo hit .246 while Borchard hit .174.

If Borchard has finally figured it out then good for him but it is still entirely possible for him to continue with his poor play.

I think the point of the arugment is that you cant do worse than what Timo did on the SOX, not the Mets. Timo may once have batted .290 with the Mets. He also batted .246 and .218 with the SOX much more recently. That's a 2-year average of .232. His OBP last year was .266! :o:The only reason Timo is on any MLB roster is because he is lefty. He can't field. He can't hit. And he's slow. He may have come up with a couple of big hits but thats about it.
If given the chance, I'm very confident Borchard can produce well above Timo-esque numbers. Borchard will also give us more speed, power and defense.

Daver
03-18-2006, 09:49 PM
Joe may have (finally) earned a place on the roster, but no way he's starting CF. As already noted, his defensive 'skills" are not quite what you relish in that position.

He is not a defensive liabily in any OF position. I'm not saying he is a gold glover in CF, but he won't hurt the team in that position.

ondafarm
03-18-2006, 10:08 PM
I think Borchard will be the fourth OF and an important player for protecting Anderson. If Joe has value this year, it is taking difficult at-bats away from Anderson. With an acceptable year, he will have a modicum of trade value.

At least that's what I'd do if I were in KW's shoes.

Banix12
03-19-2006, 02:02 AM
I think the point of the arugment is that you cant do worse than what Timo did on the SOX, not the Mets. Timo may once have batted .290 with the Mets. He also batted .246 and .218 with the SOX much more recently. That's a 2-year average of .232. His OBP last year was .266! :o:The only reason Timo is on any MLB roster is because he is lefty. He can't field. He can't hit. And he's slow. He may have come up with a couple of big hits but thats about it.
If given the chance, I'm very confident Borchard can produce well above Timo-esque numbers. Borchard will also give us more speed, power and defense.

Here's the thing. You can hope he performs better than Timo but you can't say without a doubt that Joe Borchard can perform better than Timo Perez. You can even throw out the mets stats (although I think it's fair to take that performance into account) and Timo has still hit better than Joe.

We have stats from 2004 when both Timo and Joe were on the white sox roster playing in the same stadiums and both had at minimum 200 AB. Timo hit .246. and Joe hit .174. Sure Timo hit .218 last year and it was surely dissapointing but for Joe Borchard hitting .218 would be .027 points above his career MLB average.

How can you say then, without a doubt, that Joe Borchard will hit better than Timo Perez when he has yet to show that he can hit better than Timo Perez?

And I'm in no way defending Timo Perez here. I wanted him gone as much as anybody. I'm just saying Joe Borchard, at least based on past performance, probably isn't as obvious an upgrade that you all seem to be claiming.

Optimism is nice but I just can't be optimistic on a guy based only on two good months last year and a good spring. If just once in his AAA career he could have put together a full season of solid hitting at that level then I would probably share your optimism. He didn't put a full season together so I'm just not optimistic. And while good spring training stats are nice I just don't always trust them because it really isn't a good time of year to evaluate talent.

Steelrod
03-19-2006, 05:14 AM
Folks, we're talking about the 25th man!
It may boil down to which can bring us something of value in a trade. At this point in their respective careers, it may be neither and the loser gets released. If not, it's someone who pitch hits once or twice a week and maybe gets an inning or two in the field. Average vs. power. Really a tossup either way!

voodoochile
03-19-2006, 12:10 PM
Folks, we're talking about the 25th man!
It may boil down to which can bring us something of value in a trade. At this point in their respective careers, it may be neither and the loser gets released. If not, it's someone who pitch hits once or twice a week and maybe gets an inning or two in the field. Average vs. power. Really a tossup either way!

Ain't it great? Every spring you can count on this exact thread popping up. The names change, the game remains the same...:D:

California Sox
03-19-2006, 01:37 PM
I'm a big Borchard apologist, which is probably a losing proposition, but watching the game yesterday in person I was impressed by the improvements Joe has made in his swing. He used to look like the Borchbot 5000 up there: Extremely mechanical. But he looked so much smoother and more fluid yesterday than I have ever seen him. And he was going up the middle. With Pods shoulder hurting and Thome available to back up Konerko at first, personally I'd rather take a flyer on Borchard than Gload. I mean, you can criticize Joe in the field but he's Willie Mays compared to Gload in the outfield.

some notes from the game: Brandon McCarthy had the best stuff of any Sox pitcher. He was sick in his full inning of work. Logan looked pretty good for a guy with limited experience. Gets a lot of movement. Reminded me a wee bit of Radinsky. Obviously Crede looked outstanding. Vazquez was a half foot short of other times I've seen him on his fastball but his offspeed stuff was tremendous. Robert Valido was extremely impressive in the field. Carries himself like a big leaguer. Carter got two at bats, which must be a reward for excelling in minor league camp. Totally looks like an athlete. First at bat he looked pretty good striking out. Second at bat, he looked overmatched mentally. Kept swinging at the same out-of-the-strikezone fastball, but he's still an impressive specimen. Anderson did well but the homer was windblown. He's going to be a little feast or famine for a while as he does not look like he's picking up offspeed stuff that well, but he put up a few really good at bats. Battled hard.

Banix12
03-19-2006, 02:17 PM
Ain't it great? Every spring you can count on this exact thread popping up. The names change, the game remains the same...:D:

Ah for the good ol days of the Jaime Burke vs. Ben Davis arguments of 2005. Then we got our answer when neither made the team.

chisox2005
03-20-2006, 11:56 AM
Well for Borchard to be the starting center fielder he'll have to battle Jeremy Reed now. :bandance:

chisoxmike
03-20-2006, 11:59 AM
Well for Borchard to be the starting center fielder he'll have to battle Jeremy Reed now. :bandance:

:LTP
"Ugh, this looks familiar, all we need is Aaron."

PaulDrake
03-20-2006, 12:56 PM
Is anybody else thinking that Joe Borcahrd has so far has earned the right to be the Sox starting CF on opening day? His hitting has been much better than either Anderson or Owens this spring. I know that Anderson was the favorite coming into spring training, but so far Borchard has been much more impressive. I say they make him the starting CF on opening day and give him last chance to stick with the Sox and live up to his potential. I'm glad they didn't take your advice.

MVP
03-20-2006, 03:56 PM
I'm glad they didn't take your advice.

Still, you must admit they didn't get very much for him. Based off of what they got, they had to little to lose by keeping him

BeviBall!
03-20-2006, 04:57 PM
Still, you must admit they didn't get very much for him. Based off of what they got, they had to little to lose by keeping him
I'll admit I still held out a small flicker of hope that he would be a positive factor on this team. But, what I think means nothing. Obviously, it was trade or flat out release. Be thankful we got a pitcher that can throw in the high 90s instead of Jesse Orosco.

ondafarm
03-20-2006, 05:00 PM
To answer the original speculation, only if he can beat out Reed for it.

Banix12
03-20-2006, 05:17 PM
Still, you must admit they didn't get very much for him. Based off of what they got, they had to little to lose by keeping him

Considering how crowded the sox OF situation is with prospects they actually might have more to gain on trying to turn around the failed pitching prospect than keep trying to turn around the failed OF prospect.

And actually this is a step up from the offseason. Most teams in the offseason weren't even willing to give up guys like this for Borchard.