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View Full Version : The Bonds thing got me thinking...


Kilroy
03-09-2006, 10:38 AM
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and others were hitting 60+ homers when there were lots of other guys getting up into the 50s. And we've watched all those guys get pitched around or just plain walked lots of times.

Babe Ruth was hitting 60 homers a season when no other entire team hit that many in a season. How was he getting pitched to?

It's often been said that Ruth saved baseball after the Black-Sox scandal. I wonder if his home run prowess was orchestrated? It's not inconceivable. The scandal put people off baseball as something they shouldn't waste their money on, right? The thought it was all fixed. But here comes this character that's larger than life hitting home runs by the bushel.

It could all very well have been marketing. Make Ruth the face, give people what they like to see and are willing to pay for, and clean up the mess while they are looking the other way.

itsnotrequired
03-09-2006, 10:40 AM
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and others were hitting 60+ homers when there were lots of other guys getting up into the 50s. And we've watched all those guys get pitched around or just plain walked lots of times.

Babe Ruth was hitting 60 homers a season when no other entire team hit that many in a season. How was he getting pitched to?

It's often been said that Ruth saved baseball after the Black-Sox scandal. I wonder if his home run prowess was orchestrated? It's not inconceivable. The scandal put people off baseball as something they shouldn't waste their money on, right? The thought it was all fixed. But here comes this character that's larger than life hitting home runs by the bushel.

It could all very well have been marketing. Make Ruth the face, give people what they like to see and are willing to pay for, and clean up the mess while they are looking the other way.

http://www.shalinor.circustent.us/SA/tinfoil_small.jpg

voodoochile
03-09-2006, 10:41 AM
Pure speculation and rampant rumor mongering...

Hey Dude, what's the score?:rolleyes:

Baby Fisk
03-09-2006, 10:46 AM
Baseballs were wound tighter starting in 1920, but it helped everyone hit more HRs, not just Ruth.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-09-2006, 10:47 AM
Baseballs were wound tighter starting in 1920, but it helped everyone hit more HRs, not just Ruth.

Thank you. Beat me to it.

Hangar18
03-09-2006, 10:48 AM
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and others were hitting 60+ homers when there were lots of other guys getting up into the 50s. And we've watched all those guys get pitched around or just plain walked lots of times.

Babe Ruth was hitting 60 homers a season when no other entire team hit that many in a season. How was he getting pitched to?

It's often been said that Ruth saved baseball after the Black-Sox scandal. I wonder if his home run prowess was orchestrated? It's not inconceivable. The scandal put people off baseball as something they shouldn't waste their money on, right? The thought it was all fixed. But here comes this character that's larger than life hitting home runs by the bushel.

It could all very well have been marketing. Make Ruth the face, give people what they like to see and are willing to pay for, and clean up the mess while they are looking the other way.


Interesting theory ..............

PaulDrake
03-09-2006, 10:49 AM
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and others were hitting 60+ homers when there were lots of other guys getting up into the 50s. And we've watched all those guys get pitched around or just plain walked lots of times.

Babe Ruth was hitting 60 homers a season when no other entire team hit that many in a season. How was he getting pitched to?

It's often been said that Ruth saved baseball after the Black-Sox scandal. I wonder if his home run prowess was orchestrated? It's not inconceivable. The scandal put people off baseball as something they shouldn't waste their money on, right? The thought it was all fixed. But here comes this character that's larger than life hitting home runs by the bushel.

It could all very well have been marketing. Make Ruth the face, give people what they like to see and are willing to pay for, and clean up the mess while they are looking the other way. How pray tell was this grand conspiracy orchestrated? Were all those pitchers paid off or just hypnotized? What about 1919, the last year of the dead ball era. Ruth hit 29 or his teams 33 total home runs. Was the fix in then too? Of course I'm sure you didn't notice that Ruth led the league in BOB 12 times. I go all out to be nice to everyone here, but you can't possibly be serious. Can you?

DoItForDanPasqua
03-09-2006, 11:40 AM
They pitched around him as well, he has the second highest obp and the second most walks of all time. The ball being wound tighter doesn't explain why he was hitting more homers than other teams combined.

spiffie
03-09-2006, 12:04 PM
Four Words...Steroid Injected Hot Dogs.

Unregistered
03-09-2006, 12:12 PM
Interesting theory ..............:rolling:

Rooney4Prez56
03-09-2006, 12:12 PM
There must have been something in the beer.

fquaye149
03-09-2006, 12:14 PM
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and others were hitting 60+ homers when there were lots of other guys getting up into the 50s. And we've watched all those guys get pitched around or just plain walked lots of times.

Babe Ruth was hitting 60 homers a season when no other entire team hit that many in a season. How was he getting pitched to?

It's often been said that Ruth saved baseball after the Black-Sox scandal. I wonder if his home run prowess was orchestrated? It's not inconceivable. The scandal put people off baseball as something they shouldn't waste their money on, right? The thought it was all fixed. But here comes this character that's larger than life hitting home runs by the bushel.

It could all very well have been marketing. Make Ruth the face, give people what they like to see and are willing to pay for, and clean up the mess while they are looking the other way.

Um Ruth happened to be one of the best hitters in baseball history...it's not surprising that he would be head and shoulders above the rest of his class.


However, it's true that MLB seemed to have a livelier ball post 1919. Plus Ruth's ballpark was tailored to a left handed power hitter. You're not completely full of ****...but Ruth was almost certainly not given any kind of unfair advantage.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-09-2006, 12:38 PM
The ball being wound tighter doesn't explain why he was hitting more homers than other teams combined.
Maybe other teams were slow to recognize how valuable hitting homeruns can be towards winning a ballgame. I know of one franchise, quite well-known here at WSI, that still had a single-season homerun record of just 33 dingers as recently as 1971. You think this team's 88-year championship drought might be connected to this fact?
:cool:

Bronx Bombers, 26 world championships
"Go-Go" team, none until 2006 (and the 2006 team hit plenty of dingers)

:wink:

Rocky Soprano
03-09-2006, 12:48 PM
:rolling:

Come on, you knew Hangar would like it. :D:

Unregistered
03-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Come on, you knew Hangar would like it. :D:Which is exactly why it was so hilarious.

I just imagined the lightbulb turning on over his head. :D:

Johnny Mostil
03-09-2006, 01:07 PM
Babe Ruth was hitting 60 homers a season when no other entire team hit that many in a season. How was he getting pitched to?


I'm guessing Ruth was pitched to less carefully as the season progressed, and that it helped him to have Gehrig hit behind him, especially that year. As I recall, Ruth hit his last 17 homers that year in the Yanks' last 24 games. As usual, Ruth led the league in BBs that year, but I'm guessing teams eventually figured out it didn't pay to pitch around him when Gehrig--who really came into his own that year, hitting .373 with 47 HR and 175 RBI, stats that would have easily won the Triple Crown in nearly any other year--was waiting right behind him. Hence Ruth's late-season HR surge . . .

Lip Man 1
03-09-2006, 01:21 PM
Johnny:

You also have to factor in that from what the film records show, most of the pitchers at that time period weren't throwing as hard as they do today (which is strange).

I'm specifically referring to a piece of film of Ruth hitting a home run where he literally did a double take with his swing and still drove it out. Jose Canseco made a comment along the same lines after seeing the piece of film.

Ruth started his stride, stopped dead then restarted and still got his bat on the ball.

Not taking anything away from what he did but I'm sure the pitching particularly with the new 'lively' ball had something to do with his home run totals.

Lip

downstairs
03-09-2006, 01:22 PM
Um Ruth happened to be one of the best hitters in baseball history...it's not surprising that he would be head and shoulders above the rest of his class.


Yes.

And it's an interesting thing to ponder. While it is impossible to compare players of a past era to how they'd do today... I wonder if he was, in the end, just "that good."

As in... if Ruth were a player today... would he be hitting 90 home runs per year? 100?

Johnny Mostil
03-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Johnny:

You also have to factor in that from what the film records show, most of the pitchers at that time period weren't throwing as hard as they do today (which is strange).

I'm specifically referring to a piece of film of Ruth hitting a home run where he literally did a double take with his swing and still drove it out. Jose Canseco made a comment along the same lines after seeing the piece of film.

Ruth started his stride, stopped dead then restarted and still got his bat on the ball.

Not taking anything away from what he did but I'm sure the pitching particularly with the new 'lively' ball had something to do with his home run totals.

Lip

The original question, as I understood it (maybe not correctly), was whether Babe Ruth's home run record, particularly his 60 HR season in '27, was orchestrated. While maybe the lively ball had something to do with it--and I admit it is interesting that the second highest HR total in the AL was 10 in '19 (Baker), 19 in '20 (Sisler), and 24 in '21 (Meusel)--I'll stick to my answer that Gehrig hitting behind Ruth may have had more to do with Ruth's push to 60.

SoLongFrank
03-09-2006, 02:07 PM
The original question, as I understood it (maybe not correctly), was whether Babe Ruth's home run record, particularly his 60 HR season in '27, was orchestrated. While maybe the lively ball had something to do with it--and I admit it is interesting that the second highest HR total in the AL was 10 in '19 (Baker), 19 in '20 (Sisler), and 24 in '21 (Meusel)--I'll stick to my answer that Gehrig hitting behind Ruth may have had more to do with Ruth's push to 60.

Put another way, if Ruth had remained with Boston his whole career I don't think he hits 60 HR in a single season.

Johnny Mostil
03-09-2006, 02:26 PM
Put another way, if Ruth had remained with Boston his whole career I don't think he hits 60 HR in a single season.

That's a simpler way to put it, thank you. I tend to agree, though he still would have a helluva lot in any season, particularly in comparison with his peers.

I glanced at the top 100 career HR hitters as listed at http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_career.shtml. (All 100 now have at least 309 HR.) As near as I can tell, these were the top five when Mel Ott and Hank Greenberg retired in 1947:
Ruth, 714
Foxx, 534
Ott, 511
Gehrig, 493
Greenberg, 379.

Fifth place now is Sosa, 588.

SoLongFrank
03-09-2006, 04:07 PM
Every time I see Sosa's name in these lists I cringe. McGuire isn't much better.

I contend we can narrow down those who's claim to fame is all about the juice.

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr1.shtml
http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hibavg1.shtml

Aaron is #1 HR, w a .305BA. Good enough to be cleared.
Ruth is #2 HR, w a .342BA. Best ever!

Bonds is #3 HR, w a .300BA. Obviously juiced.
1993 46HR, .336BA. He could have reached #5 HR without the juice.

Mays is #4 HR, w a .302BA. Good enough to be cleared.

Sosa is #5 HR, w a .274BA. His 355 2B's don't impress.
1993 25 2B's 33HR .261BA 2002 19 2B's 49HR .288BA sim AB's those yrs.
If that's not enough evidence then consider this:
1994 .300BA, 1995-1997 .260BA, 1998-2002 .305BA, 2003 .279BA
1994 128H, 1995-1997 148H, 1998-2002 170H, 2003 144H
1994 25HR, 1995-1997 37HR, 1998-2002 55HR, 2003 40HR

It's clear Sosa's BA was impacted by turning fly outs into HRs.
His claim to fame is all about the juice.

F Robinson #6 HR, w a .294BA. Suspect but then 528 2B's easily clears him.

McGuire is #7 HR, w a .263BA. Bigger joke than Sosa.

Killebrew is #8 HR, w a .256BA. Suspect, 290 2B's no help. Toughest call.
1959 42HR, .242BA. He's just so much of an aberration it's hard to say.

Palmeiro is #9 HR, w a .288BA. His 585 2B's are impressive.
His HR's are like bookends around Canseco's claims.
1992 22HR, .268BA, 2004 23HR, .258BA. Fame goes to the juice.

Jackson is #10 HR, w a .262BA.
1969 36 2B, 47HR, .275BA that & his 463 2B's clear him.

Schmidt is #11 HR, w a .267BA, & 408 2B's.
1974 28 2B, 36HR, .282BA. 1987 28 2B, 35HR, 293BA. Cleared.

KGriffey Jr is #12 HR, w a .293BA, & 430 2B's. Considering his DL time over the years 430 2B's is amazing. Big time cleared! Inspired Rowand to run into walls to make plays.

F Thomas is #30 HR, w a .307BA, & 448 2B's. For a sports writer to ignore both his 2B's & BA is ridiculous. Big time cleared!

M Ramirez is #33 HR, w a .314BA, & 411 2B's. Cleared!

J Thome is #36 HR, w a .281BA & 324 2B's. Suspect.
1996 28 2B's, 38HR, .311BA. 2004 28 2B's, 42HR, .274BA. Cleared.

MLB should conduct a thorough investigation to determine a list of abberations like Sosa.
In the HOF create a section of "Cheaters & Suspects" & place the most obvious abberations & known cheaters there.
Sosa is a known cheater for the corked bat incident. He is also a prime suspect for fame due almost entirely to juice.

Ol' No. 2
03-09-2006, 04:15 PM
Every time I see Sosa's name in these lists I cringe. McGuire isn't much better.

I contend we can narrow down those who's claim to fame is all about the juice.

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr1.shtml
http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hibavg1.shtml

Aaron is #1 HR, w a .305BA. Good enough to be cleared.
Ruth is #2 HR, w a .342BA. Best ever!

Bonds is #3 HR, w a .300BA. Obviously juiced.
1993 46HR, .336BA. He could have reached #5 HR without the juice.

Mays is #4 HR, w a .302BA. Good enough to be cleared.

Sosa is #5 HR, w a .274BA. His 355 2B's don't impress.
1993 25 2B's 33HR .261BA 2002 19 2B's 49HR .288BA sim AB's those yrs.
If that's not enough evidence then consider this:
1994 .300BA, 1995-1997 .260BA, 1998-2002 .305BA, 2003 .279BA
1994 128H, 1995-1997 148H, 1998-2002 170H, 2003 144H
1994 25HR, 1995-1997 37HR, 1998-2002 55HR, 2003 40HR

It's clear Sosa's BA was impacted by turning fly outs into HRs.
His claim to fame is all about the juice.

F Robinson #6 HR, w a .294BA. Suspect but then 528 2B's easily clears him.

McGuire is #7 HR, w a .263BA. Bigger joke than Sosa.

Killebrew is #8 HR, w a .256BA. Suspect, 290 2B's no help. Toughest call.
1959 42HR, .242BA. He's just so much of an aberration it's hard to say.

Palmeiro is #9 HR, w a .288BA. His 585 2B's are impressive.
His HR's are like bookends around Canseco's claims.
1992 22HR, .268BA, 2004 23HR, .258BA. Fame goes to the juice.

Jackson is #10 HR, w a .262BA.
1969 36 2B, 47HR, .275BA that & his 463 2B's clear him.

Schmidt is #11 HR, w a .267BA, & 408 2B's.
1974 28 2B, 36HR, .282BA. 1987 28 2B, 35HR, 293BA. Cleared.

KGriffey Jr is #12 HR, w a .293BA, & 430 2B's. Considering his DL time over the years 430 2B's is amazing. Big time cleared! Inspired Rowand to run into walls to make plays.

F Thomas is #30 HR, w a .307BA, & 448 2B's. For a sports writer to ignore both his 2B's & BA is ridiculous. Big time cleared!

M Ramirez is #33 HR, w a .314BA, & 411 2B's. Cleared!

J Thome is #36 HR, w a .281BA & 324 2B's. Suspect.
1996 28 2B's, 38HR, .311BA. 2004 28 2B's, 42HR, .274BA. Cleared.

MLB should conduct a thorough investigation to determine a list of abberations like Sosa.
In the HOF create a section of "Cheaters & Suspects" & place the most obvious abberations & known cheaters there.
Sosa is a known cheater for the corked bat incident. He is also a prime suspect for fame due almost entirely to juice.You have to factor the era when these guys played. Killebrew, Mays and Robinson all played in the 1960's when pitching dominated. In 1968 only one player in the entire AL hit over .300. Factor that in and they aren't even a close call.

Johnny Mostil
03-09-2006, 04:20 PM
Every time I see Sosa's name in these lists I cringe. McGuire isn't much better.

I agree completely. And, to go back to what I thought was Kilroy's original point here, your list is still another reason why I can't see much evidence for an orchestration of Ruth's HR totals. Yeah, maybe a livelier ball helped Ruth, as did the contours of Yankee Stadium. But I don't think there's any way that can, or should, be compared to what baseball effectively encouraged or even orchestrated through Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire . . .