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chisox56
03-07-2006, 12:09 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html?cnn=yes

Chicken Dinner
03-07-2006, 12:13 PM
Not Barry......I don't believe it!! :o:

Baby Fisk
03-07-2006, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the linky, chisox56.

soxfan26
03-07-2006, 12:16 PM
The authors write that by 2001 ... Bonds was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle.

:o:

TheOldRoman
03-07-2006, 12:16 PM
The photo on the cover of SI is so great artistically, I would imagine they touched it up. The look on his face, along with the shadowing. You can almost see his demons behind him. They are catching up!:D:

areilly
03-07-2006, 12:18 PM
If it's true - and I don't think any of us would be shocked if it was - I'd like to see this as the start of the end of Bonds. That may sound spiteful, but I don't think a guy like this deserves the chance to put his name ahead of Ruth and Aaron.

mccoydp
03-07-2006, 12:20 PM
I loved the excerpt that SI had...maybe, hopefully, this fraud of a player will be exposed. It's a shame that Shammy Roids probably won't follow.:(:

Captian Ron
03-07-2006, 12:22 PM
:farmer He's said it a hundred times. " Bonds is a piece of @#$*

Madvora
03-07-2006, 12:26 PM
I loved the excerpt that SI had...maybe, hopefully, this fraud of a player will be exposed. It's a shame that Shammy Roids probably won't follow.:(:
Oh please let it happen!

soxfan26
03-07-2006, 12:26 PM
If it's true - and I don't think any of us would be shocked if it was - I'd like to see this as the start of the end of Bonds. That may sound spiteful, but I don't think a guy like this deserves the chance to put his name ahead of Ruth and Aaron.
Bonds will no doubt face much dire consequences in the future. Things like...

liver tumors and cancer, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other side effects include kidney tumors, severe acne, and trembling. shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts, increased risk for prostate cancer.
:nandrolone

"No Worries Barry" (http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Steroids.html)

Unregistered
03-07-2006, 12:30 PM
Really, nothing could be more obvious.

Ol' No. 2
03-07-2006, 12:34 PM
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050224/050224_bonds_vmed_7p.widec.jpg No habla Ingise.

:nandrolone Forget it, Barry. They didn't even buy that when I tried it.

samram
03-07-2006, 12:35 PM
Through 1998, for instance, when he turned 34, Bonds averaged one home run every 16.1 at bats. Since then -- what the authors identify as the start of his doping regimen -- Bonds has hit home runs nearly twice as frequently (one every 8.5 at bats).

I was going to quote the same paragraph soxfan26 did, so I'll quote this one instead. I think this will be a really compelling read.

Who wants to bet ESPN conveniently overlooks this?

soxfan13
03-07-2006, 12:37 PM
OH MY NEVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT HE WOULD DO IT

daveeym
03-07-2006, 12:38 PM
What's it matter. MLB won't comment and it seems half of baseball fans don't care. Then there are the idiots that defend him. "It doesn't count, he was given immunity and it's supposed to be sealed." "it was legal at the time."

soxfanatlanta
03-07-2006, 12:38 PM
Who wants to bet ESPN conveniently overlooks this?

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/morgan0708.jpg "What article?"

Palehose Pete
03-07-2006, 12:39 PM
I wish Barry would leave the game behind. He's become a poison to the game. He's become a freakish sideshow to the game. I see Barry, and I wonder why he even thinks anyone still respects him? I see Barry, and I appreciate the accomplishments by players like Frank Thomas even more, even with all of his complaining and so-called "selfish behavior."

samram
03-07-2006, 12:43 PM
What's it matter. MLB won't comment and it seems half of baseball fans don't care. Then there's the idiots that defend him. "It doesn't count, he was given immunity and it's supposed to be sealed." "it was legal at the time."

Yeah, the whole immunity thing is silly because it doesn't apply to MLB. It means he won't be tried in a criminal court. MLB can certainly take action if they feel his actions tainted the game, which they have. If one of the ENRON guys was given immunity at one of these trials, it wouldn't mean ENRON has to keep him on board.

Unregistered
03-07-2006, 12:43 PM
In addition to detailing the drug usage, the excerpt portrays Bonds as a menacing boor, a tax cheat and an adulterer given to (probably because of the rampant steroid use) sexual dysfunction, hair loss and wild mood swings that included periods of rage. The authors report that Bonds gave Bell, with whom he continued his affair after his second marriage in January 1998, $80,000 in cash in 2001 from memorabilia income not reported to the IRS. Theirs was a volatile relationship. Bell retained answering machine recordings of him after he threatened to kill her, remarking that if she disappeared no one would be able to prove he even knew her.

What a sweetheart.

mjharrison72
03-07-2006, 12:44 PM
Of course, we've all suspected this, but it's quite another thing to have two investigative reporters lay everything so bare. I hope MLB suspends him pending investigation of this, and if they determine it's true, ban him for life. I don't care if he's not doing it now.
This man has no business being listed among baseball's greats if he took these substances so he wouldn't have to work out to build muscles naturally. It makes me sick.

VenturaFan23
03-07-2006, 12:45 PM
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050224/050224_bonds_vmed_7p.widec.jpg No habla Ingise.

:nandrolone Forget it, Barry. They didn't even buy that when I tried it.

:roflmao: :rolling:

Ol' No. 2
03-07-2006, 12:47 PM
:tool Hey, how about that WBC? Isn't that exciting?

VenturaFan23
03-07-2006, 12:48 PM
Who wants to bet ESPN conveniently overlooks this?

Does anyone else feel sorry for Pedro Gomez who has to cover this piece of crap all day, everday?

daveeym
03-07-2006, 12:48 PM
Yeah, the whole immunity thing is silly because it doesn't apply to MLB. It means he won't be tried in a criminal court. MLB can certainly take action if they feel his actions tainted the game, which they have. If one of the ENRON guys was given immunity at one of these trials, it wouldn't mean ENRON has to keep him on board. MLB is going to let it all get sweeped under the rug and keep nailing people in the future. They'll talk about the program they got now, testing and the new supplement certification program they just enacted, and will just say we can't make assumptions of the past. Mac, Sosa and Bonds will all skate and be elected into the Hall of Fame.

Tekijawa
03-07-2006, 12:52 PM
.... shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts,...

http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/01/image1356899g.jpg

It's already begun!

EMel9281
03-07-2006, 12:57 PM
Hey, I just stumbled across this book written by 2 San Francisco Chronicle reports that say that Bonds did use steriods.

http://www.gameofshadows.com/

Check it out! Shows like Bonds is just like all the other denial-ists out there...

soxfan26
03-07-2006, 01:03 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/01/image1356899g.jpg

It's already begun!

I made a bet with myself that one of three posters would make this exact remark within 10 posts of mine. You were one of the three but I loose because it took you 15 posts. :(: :D: :bandance:

Jerko
03-07-2006, 01:03 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2006/03/01/image1356899g.jpg

It's already begun!

Teki that's the first thing I thought of but was WAY to lazy to do the fine work you just did. This is a riot.

daveeym
03-07-2006, 01:06 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/03/06/bonds.years/index.1.exclude.html

Nice photo timeline of Bonds.

Tekijawa
03-07-2006, 01:50 PM
Did a book honestly need to be wasted on this? This strikes me as a bit obvious, like that "Snakes on a Plane" Sig... The sad fact of the matter is that two People will probably make a lot of money off of this... Yet no one will by my book about the lack of dwarfs in the NBA or how Kevin Federline couldn't get a 1 on his Wonderlic test...

Mots09
03-07-2006, 02:12 PM
I give him a pass b/c he dressed up like that ex-Laker dancer. The country should give him a pass too, because he is making us laugh now.:D:

mwc44
03-07-2006, 02:17 PM
I give him a pass b/c he dressed up like that ex-Laker dancer. The country should give him a pass too, because he is making us laugh now.:D:
:tealtutor:

cheeses_h_rice
03-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Beautiful.

Just ****ing beautiful.

Eat **** and die, Barry, and take Sham-ME* with you while you're at it.

MarySwiss
03-07-2006, 02:48 PM
Believe it or not, there's an article on ESPN.com right now about this story.

Edit: And check out the poll results. Wow!

Edit 2: And here's irony. There's also a story about MLB planning to sell approved supplements to players. Ay-yi-yi!

kevin57
03-07-2006, 02:51 PM
Murph devoted a good deal of time to the SI Bonds article today. It paints a really bad picture of an abusive womanizer, a tax fraud, etc., but the most damning charge from a baseball perspective is the steroid use.

It will be interesting to see how Uncle Bud deals with this. He'll likely hope that nobody notices, but I suspect that this time the crescendo of outrage will make that difficult to do. Will he then have the stones to suspend/ban Bonds? Don't hold your breath. The net result will be that baseball will begin to look like figure skating :o: I.e., it's not being played on the up-and-up.

On a related note, Murph reported how owners are making various supplements available to players that can mask a + steroid read. Ah, you gotta love these guys. :angry:

samram
03-07-2006, 02:54 PM
Did a book honestly need to be wasted on this? This strikes me as a bit obvious, like that "Snakes on a Plane" Sig... The sad fact of the matter is that two People will probably make a lot of money off of this... Yet no one will by my book about the lack of dwarfs in the NBA or how Kevin Federline couldn't get a 1 on his Wonderlic test...
This book is no waste. The book is a giant **** you to Barry because he can't hide behind immunity, secret testimony, laugh off unnamed sources, etc. anymore. Let's see if he sues for libel- I wouldn't hold my breath though.

voodoochile
03-07-2006, 02:57 PM
This book is no waste. The book is a giant **** you to Barry because he can't hide behind immunity, secret testimony, laugh off unnamed sources, etc. anymore. Let's see if he sues for libel- I wouldn't hold my breath though.

If he sues for libel, he has to take the stand, and there is no way in hell that happens, because then his immunity will go right out the window when he perjurs himself repeatedly.

Nothing will be done, after all, it wasn't specifically prohibited when he took them. Now if they can prove he took them after the ban was signed off on by all involved, he is ****ed...

chaerulez
03-07-2006, 02:58 PM
This book is no waste. The book is a giant **** you to Barry because he can't hide behind immunity, secret testimony, laugh off unnamed sources, etc. anymore. Let's see if he sues for libel- I wouldn't hold my breath though.

I agree. How is it a waste? Finally the national media is acknowledging this. It wouldn't have happened without this book. And who cares if people are making money off of this? Hard work was put into researching and writing the book so they deserve it for bringing out the truth. I'm tired of all these foolish Bonds apologists or still just think there's a possiblity he didn't take steroids.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-07-2006, 03:13 PM
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_photos/2003-07-14-inside-selig.jpg

Bud Selig circa 2002

http://www.reelfilm.com/images/fargo.jpg

Bud Selig circa 1968 - Pre Seattle Pilots

areilly
03-07-2006, 03:26 PM
I just heard Farmer on the score and I like how he summed up Bonds:

"One of the best players I've ever seen, and the absolute worst human being I've ever had to deal with."

What's amazing to me is how much of the material the book is based on comes from public record. Can MLB look the other way this time?

Is Fehr enough of a jackass to cry "He never failed a drug test!"?

Can Selig find it in him to step up and admit that yes, the problem was that bad? That letting this walking biochemistry experiment stand as the face of the game is one of the worst things he can do? That Bonds is, in fact, a total disgrace to the greatest game in the world? The game he's trying to sell to other countries as exactly that?

This will either be redemption or a travesty. Any bets on which?

samram
03-07-2006, 03:34 PM
I wonder if MLB will ask ESPN to pull the Bonds reality show. The NFL made them pull whatever that show was two or three years ago. The Bonds show would be an even bigger joke now. Hell, maybe ESPN will grow a pair and just do it themselves.

WSox8404
03-07-2006, 03:42 PM
If it's true - and I don't think any of us would be shocked if it was - I'd like to see this as the start of the end of Bonds. That may sound spiteful, but I don't think a guy like this deserves the chance to put his name ahead of Ruth and Aaron.

Spiteful? This piece of **** for years has acted like a complete tool when confronted about any of this. On B and B this afternoon they kept replaying some of his quotes from the past few years. This ******* is the biggest tool ever to participate in sports.

Jerko
03-07-2006, 03:45 PM
Too bad Bonds will never talk, because I would like to know if he thought ALL that stuff he was taking was flaxseed oil. Yeah Barry, it comes in 30 different forms and has a different effect on you for each different way you take it. He knew EXACTLY what he was taking at all times and in my book he's the lowest of the low. I think this thread would be a LOT bigger if people actually thought something would happen to him because of this, but it's like "why bother getting mad because it's all gonna go away somehow". Also it's already common knowledge that he's a cheater so the outrage has already been unleashed in earlier threads.

hdog1017
03-07-2006, 04:04 PM
If Bonds was run over by a bus tonight, I wouldn't be crying.

soxfan26
03-07-2006, 04:07 PM
Too bad Bonds will never talk...

You can rest assured Bonds will talk. But Bonds will not under any circumstances take any responsibility, show any remorse, or acknowledge the impact this has all had on the game of baseball.

I hope they never ask Bonds another question about this issue because his responses will be more of the same. He is simply a buffoon and his body will pay the ultimate price for his actions.

DieTrying79
03-07-2006, 04:07 PM
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050224/050224_bonds_vmed_7p.widec.jpg No habla Ingise.

:nandrolone Forget it, Barry. They didn't even buy that when I tried it.


Thank you for making me laugh out loud there! And the pics of Selig/Fargo and Barry/Paula, hilarious!

More comments on this from me are forthcoming after I get the feelings of the Giants backers in my office (a few season ticket holders here). My girlfriend and her family are big Giants fans, and have turned a blind eye to this as most fans out here have. This just solidifies what everyone already knew. Just pathetic.

Baby Fisk
03-07-2006, 04:18 PM
Giants fans are suffering today. Many of them choosing to bury their heads in the sand: linky (http://p080.ezboard.com/fgiantsvirtualforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID=135.t opic)

Best comment: And this is true why??? Because two Chronicle reporters say so? Wow, just wow.

TheDarkGundam
03-07-2006, 04:19 PM
Bonds did steroids:
http://www.dakuda.com/smilies/banhim.gif

daveeym
03-07-2006, 04:27 PM
Giants fans are suffering today. Many of them choosing to bury their heads in the sand: linky (http://p080.ezboard.com/fgiantsvirtualforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID=135.t opic)

Best comment: Wow, just wow.:help: I don't know which is sadder, Bonds or the majority of posts in that thread.

samram
03-07-2006, 04:28 PM
Giants fans are suffering today. Many of them choosing to bury their heads in the sand: linky (http://p080.ezboard.com/fgiantsvirtualforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID=135.t opic)

Best comment: Wow, just wow.

I think that's expected. Look how long the dumbasses on the north side buried their head about Sosa. I love that they summarily dismiss that the evidence comes from thousands of pages of testimony, etc. to say that it's just the musings of a couple of writers. Stupidity is evil's best friend.

soxfan26
03-07-2006, 04:30 PM
Giants fans are suffering today.

I'm sure the subject has been covered ad naseum on their board so I can understand them being tired of it, a bit like an old attendance thread over here perhaps.

But for these guys to still have their heads this deep in the sand... :o:

Sure, it somewhat taints his achievements in my eyes, but I've kind of figured it was true for a few years now. None of this is schocking to me or any kind of revelation.

And it's VERY annoying.

Unregistered
03-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Giants fans are suffering today. Many of them choosing to bury their heads in the sand: linky (http://p080.ezboard.com/fgiantsvirtualforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID=135.t opic)

Best comment: Wow, just wow.Sounds like a few WSI'ers who refused to believe Bonds juiced in past threads, saying that we'd never know for sure, so we shouldn't accuse him of anything...

Ol' No. 2
03-07-2006, 04:33 PM
Giants fans are suffering today. Many of them choosing to bury their heads in the sand: linky (http://p080.ezboard.com/fgiantsvirtualforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID=135.t opic)

Best comment: Wow, just wow.Actually, very few of them sounded like they were in denial. Most sounded just sick and tired of hearing about it. I guess it takes a lot for fans to run one of their own out of town, no matter what he did.

DSpivack
03-07-2006, 04:46 PM
This is all well and good, but I'm waiting for Sammy and Big Mac now.

Deebs14
03-07-2006, 04:47 PM
I wonder if MLB will ask ESPN to pull the Bonds reality show. The NFL made them pull whatever that show was two or three years ago. The Bonds show would be an even bigger joke now. Hell, maybe ESPN will grow a pair and just do it themselves.

Playmakers, which was a pretty sweet show.

Even if they pulled his reality show, we'd still be forced into seeing his ugly mug non-stop for every little thing...ala TO.

gobears1987
03-07-2006, 04:47 PM
I hope that cheating son of a bitch gets injured so he can't get to 714 and tie Ruth. If he does, that will be the biggest crime in baseball history.

Deebs14
03-07-2006, 04:49 PM
This is all well and good, but I'm waiting for Sammy and Big Mac now.

Ditto.

Ol' No. 2
03-07-2006, 04:53 PM
Ditto.:nandrolone I never took illegal asteroids.

Deebs14
03-07-2006, 04:58 PM
:nandrolone I never took illegal asteroids.

Just "keep it continuing." :cool:

Flight #24
03-07-2006, 05:05 PM
Is Fehr enough of a jackass to cry "He never failed a drug test!"?

Can Selig find it in him to step up and admit that yes, the problem was that bad? That letting this walking biochemistry experiment stand as the face of the game is one of the worst things he can do? That Bonds is, in fact, a total disgrace to the greatest game in the world? The game he's trying to sell to other countries as exactly that?

This will either be redemption or a travesty. Any bets on which?

Itll be a traveshamockery....

As for Fehr, yes, he will be exactly enough of a jackass to claim that. He'll stand up, talk about the principles of the USA, innocent until proven guilty, etc and all that crap, dragging the principles of this great nation through the mud to try and keep his player clear.

As for Selig, what he will DO is nothing. There is nothing he can do, unless he wants to get smacked upside the head by the union for acting without proof and create a huge issue as they're approaching CBA negotiations.

What he would LIKE to do? That could be another matter entirely. He has been more proactive when he had the ability to, i.e. in the minor leagues, but he hasn't fought for things at the big league level until recently.

Ol' No. 2
03-07-2006, 05:24 PM
Itll be a traveshamockery....

As for Fehr, yes, he will be exactly enough of a jackass to claim that. He'll stand up, talk about the principles of the USA, innocent until proven guilty, etc and all that crap, dragging the principles of this great nation through the mud to try and keep his player clear.

As for Selig, what he will DO is nothing. There is nothing he can do, unless he wants to get smacked upside the head by the union for acting without proof and create a huge issue as they're approaching CBA negotiations.

What he would LIKE to do? That could be another matter entirely. He has been more proactive when he had the ability to, i.e. in the minor leagues, but he hasn't fought for things at the big league level until recently.One thing the MLBPA has NO control over is the record book. Selig could decree that Bonds' HR will not count toward the record. The union can huff and puff and hold their breath until they turn blue, but there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Ditto for HOF eligibility.

Of course, he won't though.:angry:

voodoochile
03-07-2006, 05:40 PM
One thing the MLBPA has NO control over is the record book. Selig could decree that Bonds' HR will not count toward the record. The union can huff and puff and hold their breath until they turn blue, but there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Ditto for HOF eligibility.

Of course, he won't though.:angry:
Of course not. This is Selig's legacy. You think he is going to run it over himself? No chance in hell. Selig created this mess. It all happened on his watch. He has no choice but to continue ignoring, obfuscating and refusing to do anything or he is just as guilty as the guys who did the drugs are.

It works just as well for him...

:tool
"No hables Ingles."

Ol' No. 2
03-07-2006, 05:45 PM
Of course not. This is Selig's legacy. You think he is going to run it over himself? No chance in hell. Selig created this mess. It all happened on his watch. He has no choice but to continue ignoring, obfuscating and refusing to do anything or he is just as guilty as the guys who did the drugs are.

It works just as well for him...

:tool
"No hables Ingles."He's going to get run over just the same. It's hard to see where this is going to end up, but one thing's for sure, this slow-motion train wreck is a long way from being over.

white sox bill
03-07-2006, 05:53 PM
Were steroids on the banned list in 1998? Looking at Bonds, who as we all know is a bit of a jerk, and Sammy,Jose,Rafael,McGwire sure they all gained some size, but overall I'd rate thier physiques a C-.....not many cuts,bloated.
I'm not sure they'd place in the top 10 of Mr Timbucktoo contest:smile:

SouthSide_HitMen
03-07-2006, 05:54 PM
One thing the MLBPA has NO control over is the record book. Selig could decree that Bonds' HR will not count toward the record. The union can huff and puff and hold their breath until they turn blue, but there's not a damn thing they can do about it. Ditto for HOF eligibility.

Of course, he won't though.:angry:

It would be hypocritical for MLB to do anything above and beyond their current denial and Sgt. Schultz claims of the 1980s and 1990s (the first public allegations surfaced almost 20 years ago before the 1988 World Series). Bud Selig was in charge throughout the 1990s and like his quid pro quo with Carl Pohlad for illegal loans under baseball bylaws for the approval to contract the Twins, Bud and the owners did nothing during "The Summer of Love - 1998" or anytime prior (or for a few years after). They agreed - baseball is correcting the attendance woes caused by the ultimate injury to baseball - Bud's & the players cancelling 1994. Take the juice, our trainers and management will be quiet about it and you (players) should too.

I still don't understand who a person can wantingly break the rules of baseball (teams borrowing from one another), cancel a World Series, permit doping to run rampant for over a decade and these are not considered as great as an offense as to place a wager on a baseball game. 1994 was better than Rose betting? Steroids was better for baseball than betting? And Bud Selig sits in judgment on these matters?

http://asjewelers.com/FRstuff/11/schultz.jpg

"Bud, is it true you never heard the word steroid until 1998?"

Bud - lying to the press (or congress or humanity for the 47,986,923rd time)

"I knew nothing"

"So even though you owned a team and have seen players up close and personal - players like McGwire and Sosa - in your role as owner and commissioner, you have never seen any first hand evidence of steroids or the increased body sizes in players over a span of months?"

"I've seen nothing"

"And in your role as commissioner and owner, you never heard any allegations, rumors or innuendos about steroids until the summer of 1998, even though it was reported in the Washington Post over ten years earlier?"

"I heard nothing"

Baseball is not credible as long as a used car salesman is in charge of it - who constantly lies to Congress, the press and fans of the game. Asterisks, deletions, etc. are pointless as this behavior was known and sanctioned by all involved in the game. The whole stinking consortium knew about it, made billions from it and lied about it. The owners like it this way - they brought it upon themselves.

The only thing to do know is to bow your head in shame about the past, to continue to delude yourself that steroid testing "works" (current MLB testing still does not detect the clear, the cream or 1001 other types of drugs which can be used or will be developed in the future) and to ignore it ever happened / let this blow over.

Jerko
03-07-2006, 05:56 PM
Dusty acting stunned on the Score a few minutes ago. He didn't know it was THAT bad and he didn't see any of it and he's against steroids because Lyle Alzado was his friend and he (dust) has a "6 or 7 year old kid". :rolleyes:

samram
03-07-2006, 05:57 PM
He's going to get run over just the same. It's hard to see where this is going to end up, but one thing's for sure, this slow-motion train wreck is a long way from being over.

Good point. Just because he refuses to deal with it doesn't mean people won't see the truth. I guess we can hope beyond hope that he decides he doesn't want to be thought of as the biggest joke of a commissioner in baseball history and actually takes some action. I'll put my money on his doing nothing though.

chaerulez
03-07-2006, 06:33 PM
Giants fans are suffering today. Many of them choosing to bury their heads in the sand: linky (http://p080.ezboard.com/fgiantsvirtualforumfrm17.showMessage?topicID=135.t opic)

Best comment: Wow, just wow.

I think we all know most baseball fans are retarded. San Francisco isn't excluded from that fact.

SoLongFrank
03-07-2006, 06:42 PM
First off I am a Bonds fan. I think even w/out the roids & performance enhancers he's one of the best to ever play the game.

That being said I think his testimony about the Clear & Cream confirmed his usage.

So how does MLB deal with this? Game of Shadows supports the general belief that Barry was clean thru 1998. The book suggests it was that season that convinced Barry he needed more than God-given talent to battle McGuire & Sosa.

Barry avg'd 38 HR a season from 93-98. If we assume a similar avg from 99-04 then you are still looking at 190 HR. That puts Barry on the edge of the 600 HR range. Is it reasonable to say that 85% of the numbers are pure Barry?

Can we make similar comparisons with Mac & Sosa?

It seems to me the best MLB can do is make use of the asterisk & fess up to it's own irresponsibility in the matter. With respect to the HOF use the blemish to educate the public, funnel money to anti-doping programs in high schools thru-out America, & allow for public debate to wage for years over the matter.

The asterisk would serve as a scarlet letter on the legacy of these player's.

How does MLB do this? By using Barry Bonds as the measuring stick for deciding which players deserve the scarlet letter & which do not. Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, the list goes on. It's mostly circumstantial evidence but the greatest evidence of all lies in the numbers themself.

Vernam
03-07-2006, 06:45 PM
I think we all know most baseball fans are retarded. San Francisco isn't excluded from that fact.Retarded, as in "Christopher Reeve's wife died today, so I'm okay with Bonds' being a lyin', cheatin', cattle-muscle-enhancer injectin' freak"? Can't say I disagree. :cool: That Giants fan took the cake . . .

I see zero probability that Selig or anyone else will ban Bonds from the Hall or attach an asterisk to his records. But I definitely envision all the old timers boycotting the HoF ceremony the year he gets inducted. The guy should be a pariah, assuming he isn't already.

Vernam

SoLongFrank
03-07-2006, 07:12 PM
Here's what I propose:

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiops1.shtml

An 85% rule would be applied to all the scarlet letters.

Barry Bonds would drop from #4 to #59 as his OPS would fall to 896.

Mac, Sosa, Palmiero all out of the top 100 as Mac's OPS would fall to 834, Sosa to 749, & Palm below 800.

Frank Thomas would enter the top 10 list. He might gain another spot if Helton were to be tagged with a scarlet letter as well. Just looking at his numbers there is good reason to believe he was juiced.

He's played for the Rockies his whole career so Coors Field can't be used to explain the disparity. In 1997 (his 1st yr) he produced an AB/HR rate of 18.6, then in 1998 his SLG declined some with a rate of 21.2. Suddenly in 1999 he has a big surge in SLG with a rate of 16.5. That's a 25% improvement! Then in 2000 he has even a bigger surge in SLG with a rate of 13.8. About a 15% improvement! In 2001 he has the biggest surge in SLG yet with a rate of 12. That is an unheard of improvement rate over those 3 years!

Then in 2002 his rate returns to his 1997 rate of 18.4. Followed by more reasonable rates of 17.7 & 17.1 for 2003, 2004. Last yr with the toughest testing in the league to date he had his worst SLG rate 25.5

Does any one really believe that Todd Helton is more deserving of his OPS than say Manny or Frank?

I do recall reading an article that suggested Helton was juiced. He gets the benefit of the doubt because his numbers are already artificially inflated by Coors Field.

voodoochile
03-07-2006, 07:23 PM
Here's what I propose:

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiops1.shtml

An 85% rule would be applied to all the scarlet letters.

Barry Bonds would drop from #4 to #59 as his OPS would fall to 896.

Mac, Sosa, Palmiero all out of the top 100 as Mac's OPS would fall to 834, Sosa to 749, & Palm below 800.

Frank Thomas would enter the top 10 list. He might gain another spot if Helton were to be tagged with a scarlet letter as well. Just looking at his numbers there is good reason to believe he was juiced.

He's played for the Rockies his whole career so Coors Field can't be used to explain the disparity. In 1997 (his 1st yr) he produced an AB/HR rate of 18.6, then in 1998 his SLG declined some with a rate of 21.2. Suddenly in 1999 he has a big surge in SLG with a rate of 16.5. That's a 25% improvement! Then in 2000 he has even a bigger surge in SLG with a rate of 13.8. About a 15% improvement! In 2001 he has the biggest surge in SLG yet with a rate of 12. That is an unheard of improvement rate over those 3 years!

Then in 2002 his rate returns to his 1997 rate of 18.4. Followed by more reasonable rates of 17.7 & 17.1 for 2003, 2004. Last yr with the toughest testing in the league to date he had his worst SLG rate 25.5

Does any one really believe that Todd Helton is more deserving of his OPS than say Manny or Frank?

I do recall reading an article that suggested Helton was juiced. He gets the benefit of the doubt because his numbers are already artificially inflated by Coors Field.

You can do whatever you want, including the above two posts worth of denial and rampant rationalization. For most baseball fans it doesn't work that way.

If Barry were really that good, he should have gone clean like Frank and stood up to be counted as the guys who did it the right way. Now he is nothing but an ego and a cheat.

I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, period on this issue. I've got Frank and that's good enough for me, everyone else can go suck raw eggs and cry about how abused they are. **** em...

SABRSox
03-07-2006, 07:55 PM
I would hope that the growing number of critics would eventually wear down on Bonds and make him just go away, never to be heard from again. But sadly I think if anything, it only strengthens Bonds resolve to break Ruth and Aaron's records, for nothing more than a final **** you to baseball, it's fans, and the media.

I can at least take comfort in the fact that baseball is, and always will be, bigger than Barry Bonds and the others like him that are sure come after he is long gone.

And the White Sox won the world series. That too is a comforting thought. :D:

samram
03-07-2006, 08:02 PM
It's mostly circumstantial evidence but the greatest evidence of all lies in the numbers themself.
Circumstantial evidence in regargds to what? That they used steroids or that it affected their numbers? If the former, it's not circumstantial in Bonds' case. The proof is there in grand jury testimony- he claims he didn't know, but that's irrelevant, since he did it (and we all know he knew what that stuff was). Furthermore, the correlation of the roid use with improved stats points to the roids having an effect on his performance- by definition that is circumstantial, but it's extremely strong circumstantial evidence.

Asterisks aren't enough. These guys cast a shadow not only on themselves, but on every player in this generation. I had someone asking me today whether I thought Pujols was juicing. None of their names should ever be on a HOF ballot and Bonds should be banned now.

CLR01
03-07-2006, 08:02 PM
Were steroids on the banned list in 1998?


Were steroids illegal in 1998? Does MLB really have to ban something that is already against the law?

areilly
03-07-2006, 08:04 PM
I also found it interesting that this afternoon (5:00-ish) during my drive home from work, AM 1000 was talking about the Cubs and Sox (and a little about Kirby Puckett) today, but not a peep about Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, steroids, Selig, Brady Anderson, what Dusty knew, etc., except for a blurb about an "upcoming book" and "allegations" during the SportsCenter updates.

The Score was all over it and even going so far as to blast ESPN for not taking this more seriously. Hate to say it, but I agree. Then again, I didn't listen to ESPN much earlier in the day so maybe they'd already beaten it to death. Or maybe they're mad that one of their network's stars has finally been unequivocally exposed as a fraud, a cheat, and a liar. Or - even worse - that they didn't have the scoop on one of their own employees.


What does Pedro Gomez have to say about all of this? The guy covers Bonds 24/7, he must know something.

And seriously, what does Pedro Gomez have to say about all of this? The guy covers Bonds 24/7, he must know something.

SoLongFrank
03-07-2006, 08:54 PM
You don't have to look any further than Sammy Sosa to see the impact of doping on someone's numbers. http://baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=sosasa01

But I can see the opposite side arguing that age & health issues would create the same bell shaped curve of numbers in a non-doper. So again what do you use to assign the scarlet letter? Media reports? Allegations? HR threshold? It's by no means any easy thing to do & it might just be impossible to do with any degree of certainty.

I personally feel the following players doped: Helton, Bonds, Mac, Sheffield, Palmeiro, Sosa, Justice, & Canseco. I am sure pitchers have as well but they are much harder to narrow in on. I am sure there are more because as Canseco's book suggests it spreads amongst teammates quickly when they see results.

I think adjusting the numbers is just too complex for MLB. They are going to have to leave them in place. That means the league & team avg's will remain whacked out. But the * scars the players legacy for life. It's the least MLB can do to single out the cheaters.

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr2nl.shtml If you eliminate the 3 biggest cheaters in the NL over the years no NLer has ever produced better than a 10% for HR/AB.
http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr2al.shtml If you eliminate Mac only Jim Thome's 2002 season represents a modern day hitter exceeding 10%. Thome hit 52 HR in 480 AB that year. If you look only at the number's Thome would be suspect.

Save McCuddy's
03-07-2006, 10:53 PM
Frank Thomas would enter the top 10 list. He might gain another spot if Helton were to be tagged with a scarlet letter as well. Just looking at his numbers there is good reason to believe he was juiced.

He's played for the Rockies his whole career so Coors Field can't be used to explain the disparity. In 1997 (his 1st yr) he produced an AB/HR rate of 18.6, then in 1998 his SLG declined some with a rate of 21.2. Suddenly in 1999 he has a big surge in SLG with a rate of 16.5. That's a 25% improvement! Then in 2000 he has even a bigger surge in SLG with a rate of 13.8. About a 15% improvement! In 2001 he has the biggest surge in SLG yet with a rate of 12. That is an unheard of improvement rate over those 3 years!

Then in 2002 his rate returns to his 1997 rate of 18.4. Followed by more reasonable rates of 17.7 & 17.1 for 2003, 2004. Last yr with the toughest testing in the league to date he had his worst SLG rate 25.5

The biggest evidence to support Helton's innocence would be the consistency of his physical appearance. I can't say I've noticed him bulking up or as in Bonds's case his hat size hasn't expanded by better than an inch.

Secondly, the statistical study you offer is not uncommon. Take a look at Frank's track record. His first 2 full seasons, he slugs .553 and .536 then suddenly in year 4 it's .607 then an astounding .729 in the strike year. I know Frank's clean. Ted Williams has 2 full seasons to open his career with .609 and .594 SLG then breaks way out to a .735 SLG in year 3. It was another ten years before he slugged .700 or better again. Statistical anomalies amongst players early in their careers are more explainable than Bonds who had ten years under his belt before the madness hit.

In addition, Helton happened to be 27 when that 2 season peak began. This is the so called golden age for hitters. And incidentally, he battled injuries for the past two seasns and definitely wasn't healthy for much of last year.

I do recall the story that broke on his supplement use. He blasted the Rockies broadcaster that cast the suspicion on him and in turn that broadcaster apologized profusely and repealed his insinuations.

Certainly can't say for sure, but I think there's a case for Helton's innocence.

Save McCuddy's
03-07-2006, 11:03 PM
I haven't been able to stomach Barry or Sammy since I began suspecting them in 2000 or so. That being said, I remember holding Barry in ultra-high baseball esteem early in his career. He was a freak and sure fire HOF'er without the magnum ass juice years in the twilght of his career.

I can't say that we'll see many more 5 hitters steal 50 bases with 30 or more and a 100 plus RBI. Pretty phenomenal and a game changer defensively as well. This guys numbers would have been historically unique without the enhancers. Now, the good things -- the reasons to be excited about him as a player are slop being mopped out with the nonsense of the past 5 years.

HotelWhiteSox
03-07-2006, 11:03 PM
For serious cases where there is federal evidence (like Giambi and Bonds), I think a ban should be considered. This is something that is illegal and ruins the integrity at the game at the same time. Isn't that why Rose was banned? I know the argument of steroids not being banned will be brought up, but still, for the factors I listed, I think it should be considered

Slats
03-07-2006, 11:09 PM
For serious cases where there is federal evidence (like Giambi and Bonds), I think a ban should be considered. This is something that is illegal and ruins the integrity at the game at the same time. Isn't that why Rose was banned? I know the argument of steroids not being banned will be brought up, but still, for the factors I listed, I think it should be considered
:yup: :yup: :yup:

twentywontowin
03-07-2006, 11:55 PM
It's nearly impossible to gain that much muscle mass and size at his age without some sort of illegal substance. You can get bigger and stronger, but at his rate and size, there has to be something behind it.

I'm not so much as enthralled with Bonds as I still am with Brady Anderson. How do you come out of NOWHERE, and hit 50 home runs in one season, and never even come close again?

Jjav829
03-08-2006, 12:07 AM
What does Pedro Gomez have to say about all of this? The guy covers Bonds 24/7, he must know something.

And seriously, what does Pedro Gomez have to say about all of this? The guy covers Bonds 24/7, he must know something.

I can't wait for the day when Pedro Gomez snaps. It's going to be fun. The only question; what does he do what it finally happens? Grab a bat and starting assaulting Barroid? Does he just start ranting about all the crap he has seen and heard? Or does he just light himself on fire and run around in circles laughing? I don't know, but I can't wait! :yup:

Nellie_Fox
03-08-2006, 12:15 AM
Were steroids illegal in 1998? Does MLB really have to ban something that is already against the law?Steroids were added to the federal Controlled Substance Schedule III in 1990, making possession a federal offense. That's certainly "banned" in my world.

Jjav829
03-08-2006, 12:21 AM
If Barry were really that good, he should have gone clean like Frank and stood up to be counted as the guys who did it the right way. Now he is nothing but an ego and a cheat.


That's the sad thing about it (if sad is the right word). Barry was that good. Without taking any steroids, Barry would still have gone down as one of the greatest players to ever play the game. He was a consistent .300/.440/.600 player. He was always around the 35-40 HR mark with 100 RBI and 100 runs scored. He was a threat on the bases and one of the best defensive players in the game. He was easily going to become the first member of the 500-500 club. The guy would have gone down as one of the best all around players to ever step foot on a baseball field. But he got greedy. Rather than settle for being that great all-around player who did everything, he decided he wanted to become a slugger who could mash as many home runs as possible. For that he is a moron and should be kept out of the HOF.

soxfan1983
03-08-2006, 12:22 AM
:canseco "Bonds took steriods?! Oh yea, I believe i said something about that in my book last year. OLD NEWS... Who cares?!"

UofCSoxFan
03-08-2006, 12:33 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/03/06/bonds.years/index.1.exclude.html

Nice photo timeline of Bonds.

Compare photo 4 (1998, last season before doping began according to the book) and photo 9, which shows Bonds in Under Armour, not the increasingly baggy jerseys he seems to don.

The funny thing is at least Sosa had the common sense to stop and then retire when he production dropped off instead of risking being found out.

Bonds appeared to be going done that route (well the quiting part at least) but his arrogance won't let him walk away.

The said thing is, without the juice Bonds in a first ballet HOF anyways. Now I'd be disappointing if he got in. (as I would if Sosa or McGurie got in). Unfortunately at least 2 of those 3 will probably still get in.

UofCSoxFan
03-08-2006, 12:40 AM
Man, I just read an excerpt of the ESPN article.....the book claims that Bonds would sometimes work out 12 hours a day??? I don't care how well you eat and how fit you are to begin with.....that isn't possible unless you are on roids.

You know the said thing about all this....a guy I know that is a very credible source told me in back in 2002, before all this crap with Canseco, and Congress, and Bonds, and Balco, that he thought about 30 % of the majors was on roids in the mid 90s..(he didn't elaborate on names) He wasn't trying to sell a book. He was no longer associated with MLB so he wasn't trying to take anyones spot or make people look bad. He had no agenda, and most likley would be really upset if people found out what he said.

I didn't believe him then. I didn't want to believe him then. I sure as hell believe him now. This is just another blemish.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-08-2006, 12:46 AM
Steroids were added to the federal Controlled Substance Schedule III in 1990, making possession a federal offense. That's certainly "banned" in my world.

Cocaine is also a Controlled Substance and MLB felt the need to ban Cocaine when they had more cokeheads than a SNL cast.

Steroids were techincally banned in baseball in 1998 (Fay had a memo in the early 1990s - remember Bud never heard the word Steroids until 1998) but Bud choose not to enforce it but instead look the other way and keep depositing the money they received during "The Summer That Saved Baseball" Copyright MLB.

Then again greenies are a controlled substance illegal without a valid prescription but that hasn't stopped MLB from putting jars of them like jelly beans in every clubhouse for decades.

MLB management bans illegal drugs when it has to to save face in their various PR debacles such as this steroid one which has been going on for over 20 seasons.

chaerulez
03-08-2006, 01:00 AM
Does anyone else feel sorry for Pedro Gomez who has to cover this piece of crap all day, everday?

No Pedro Gomez is a clown and tool who gives Barry softball questions and Bonds knows he can rely on Gomez and ESPN to have his back until they have no choice to turn on him. Gomez, being around Bonds so much for the past couple years has to have known everything about him. But he chose to do nothing and report nothing, just another ESPN moron not interested in the truth.

SOecks
03-08-2006, 08:21 AM
There needs to be a quiet agreement for the next year (or two) that EVERY pitcher will not throw Bonds anything even close to the strike zone. I'd love to see him walk 4 times EVERY GAME and end up the season in a fit of rage with a .000 BA and all walks before giving up and claiming racism.

ComiskeyBrewer
03-08-2006, 08:24 AM
There needs to be a quiet agreement for the next year (or two) that EVERY pitcher will not throw Bonds anything even close to the strike zone. I'd love to see him walk 4 times EVERY GAME and end up the season in a fit of rage with a .000 BA and all walks before giving up and claiming racism.

Why waste 3 good pitches? Just plunk him with the first pitch.

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 09:07 AM
Here's what I propose:

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiops1.shtml

An 85% rule would be applied to all the scarlet letters.

Barry Bonds would drop from #4 to #59 as his OPS would fall to 896.

Mac, Sosa, Palmiero all out of the top 100 as Mac's OPS would fall to 834, Sosa to 749, & Palm below 800.

Frank Thomas would enter the top 10 list. He might gain another spot if Helton were to be tagged with a scarlet letter as well. Just looking at his numbers there is good reason to believe he was juiced.

He's played for the Rockies his whole career so Coors Field can't be used to explain the disparity. In 1997 (his 1st yr) he produced an AB/HR rate of 18.6, then in 1998 his SLG declined some with a rate of 21.2. Suddenly in 1999 he has a big surge in SLG with a rate of 16.5. That's a 25% improvement! Then in 2000 he has even a bigger surge in SLG with a rate of 13.8. About a 15% improvement! In 2001 he has the biggest surge in SLG yet with a rate of 12. That is an unheard of improvement rate over those 3 years!

Then in 2002 his rate returns to his 1997 rate of 18.4. Followed by more reasonable rates of 17.7 & 17.1 for 2003, 2004. Last yr with the toughest testing in the league to date he had his worst SLG rate 25.5

Does any one really believe that Todd Helton is more deserving of his OPS than say Manny or Frank?

I do recall reading an article that suggested Helton was juiced. He gets the benefit of the doubt because his numbers are already artificially inflated by Coors Field.85%???? Where did that number come from?? If you hit a double with a corked bat, do they reduce it to a single?

Here's what I propose: a 0% rule. Any fruit from a tainted tree is tainted. Not 85% tainted.

Jerko
03-08-2006, 09:11 AM
A few things bother me in all this. Yes, I do think Bonds is a scum sucking lying *******, but all this "integrity of baseball" stuff, or "Bonds is casting a shadow over baseball", has to STOP!!!!!!!!! BASEBALL is just as guilty for "looking the other way" with these guys because they were HAPPY about the McLiar/Soso home run race in 98. HR's = $$$! Didn't McLiar have an open bottle/container of Andro in plain view in his locker room? Did anybody really think that was "all" he was on? Anybody do anything about it? Investigate maybe since I think Andro was "legal"? Bonds' "trainer" was allowed in the Giants locker room, as was Sammy's with the Cubs, who IIRC even had his own UNIFORM because he was made an "honorary coach" or something to make it look better. If BASEBALL is so worried about their image, they would do something about it. But no, that won't happen because then they'll have to investigate McLiar, Scammy, Giambi, etc. so they're just going to LIE or act STUPID just to save their asses. Real integrity-filled sport. The 2nd thing that bothers me is this crap "he never tested positive" or "steroids weren't banned in baseball". Well, he never tested positive because back then they only tested urine IIRC and he had 20 things in his body that mask steroids, or he used steroids that were undetectable in urine. As for steroids "not being banned in baseball", well they were BANNED IN THE COUNTRY unless you had a LEGIT prescription! Murder wasn't officially banned in baseball, so by Bonds-apologist logic he could shoot someone in left-center field and get away with it? This whole thing stinks and as much as I hate Bonds, if MLB isn't going to do something about ALL of these morons, they may as well leave Bonds alone too. He's just itching to make it sound like it's him against the world, and I'm sure the race card is right in his pocket too, so if MLB or even the government "go after" Bonds and only Bonds, this will become an even bigger farce. Too bad he just won't go away. Well, him, Giambi, and any other person who looks completely different than they did a few days ago. Liars, one and all.

samram
03-08-2006, 09:17 AM
A few things bother me in all this. Yes, I do think Bonds is a scum sucking lying *******, but all this "integrity of baseball" stuff, or "Bonds is casting a shadow over baseball", has to STOP!!!!!!!!! BASEBALL is just as guilty for "looking the other way" with these guys because they were HAPPY about the McLiar/Soso home run race in 98. HR's = $$$! Didn't McLiar have an open bottle/container of Andro in plain view in his locker room? Did anybody really think that was "all" he was on? Anybody do anything about it? Investigate maybe since I think Andro was "legal"? Bonds' "trainer" was allowed in the Giants locker room, as was Sammy's with the Cubs, who IIRC even had his own UNIFORM because he was made an "honorary coach" or something to make it look better. If BASEBALL is so worried about their image, they would do something about it. But no, that won't happen because then they'll have to investigate McLiar, Scammy, Giambi, etc. so they're just going to LIE or act STUPID just to save their asses. Real integrity-filled sport. The 2nd thing that bothers me is this crap "he never tested positive" or "steroids weren't banned in baseball". Well, he never tested positive because back then they only tested urine IIRC and he had 20 things in his body that mask steroids, or he used steroids that were undetectable in urine. As for steroids "not being banned in baseball", well they were BANNED IN THE COUNTRY unless you had a LEGIT prescription! Murder wasn't officially banned in baseball, so by Bonds-apologist logic he could shoot someone in left-center field and get away with it? This whole thing stinks and as much as I hate Bonds, if MLB isn't going to do something about ALL of these morons, they may as well leave Bonds alone too. He's just itching to make it sound like it's him against the world, and I'm sure the race card is right in his pocket too, so if MLB or even the government "go after" Bonds and only Bonds, this will become an even bigger farce. Too bad he just won't go away. Well, him, Giambi, and any other person who looks completely different than they did a few days ago. Liars, one and all.

I don't think anyone is excusing baseball the entity (read: Selig and the owners). I think people are saying the game itself is being hurt.

itsnotrequired
03-08-2006, 09:20 AM
Anyone catch Dusty's comments?

"Had I known, definitely I would've said something. But I didn't know. Everybody was speculating about a lot of people."

Baker repeated he "never" saw Bonds use steroids.

"Everybody saw the physical change," Baker said. "You didn't know if Barry was [just] lifting weights, because he lifts all the time. [The book] says I wasn't interested, but what are you going to do? I'm not a detective. What are you going to do as a manager?


:rolleyes:

Oh, but it gets better...

"I have a little boy, 6 years old," he said. "I want to protect him and all kids. Anybody will tell you, I'm one of the guys who really spoke out most about it. I didn't know the extent. I didn't know what was said in court. This is the first time I've heard a lot of this stuff."


No word yet on whether or not he had his son on his lap during the interview.:redneck

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060307dusty,1,4381890.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed

Jerko
03-08-2006, 09:30 AM
Anyone catch Dusty's comments?



:rolleyes:

Oh, but it gets better...



No word yet on whether or not he had his son on his lap during the interview.:redneck

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060307dusty,1,4381890.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed

Dusty was manager for TWO of the main culprits. Obviously Sammy started before Baker was his manager, but come on, he had HIS own clubhouse guy too. As someone said on the radio last night; Baker either knew what was going on, or he is REALLY really stupid.

itsnotrequired
03-08-2006, 09:36 AM
Dusty was manager for TWO of the main culprits. Obviously Sammy started before Baker was his manager, but come on, he had HIS own clubhouse guy too. As someone said on the radio last night; Baker either knew what was going on, or he is REALLY really stupid.

Oh man, I forgot these other choice quotes:

Bonds' alleged supplier, Greg Anderson, frequently was in the clubhouse when Baker managed the Giants. Baker said he had "no clue" about Anderson's alleged activities and thought he was Bonds' trainer, as Bonds had described him to management.

"He was given the OK from upstairs," Baker said, referring to Magowan.

"What are you going to do when he's given the OK from upstairs?"

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

mjharrison72
03-08-2006, 09:37 AM
Morrisey has a pretty good column (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-060307morrissey,1,5815675.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) on this in today's Trib:
We're left with a preponderance of evidence that is so heavy, you almost need human-growth hormone to lift it. And it means Bonds is done. As a believable human being, he's officially finished.
...
He reiterated his innocence Tuesday, which is his prerogative, just as it's our prerogative to tell him he's a bad liar. If he is guilty of even half of what he's accused of, please remember the way he had his son at his side last year as he talked about the toll the scrutiny had taken on his family. Philip Seymour Hoffman wouldn't have won an Oscar on Sunday if Bonds had been eligible.


And I have to say I'm really disappointed with Rogers' column (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060307rogers,1,4976324.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) today, in which he asserts that Sosa should be the single-season home run leader with 66. Apparently Sosa has been clean while Bonds and McGwire were both cheating? :?:

But no one ever really nailed Sosa, at least not the way they have Bonds and McGwire. Sosa's sudden inability to speak English allowed him to finesse his way through the congressional hearing where McGwire took the heat, and that's really as close as anyone has come to proving that Sosa (like Bonds and almost certainly like McGwire) used illegal performance-enhancing drugs to turn into a slugger of monstrous proportions.

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 09:42 AM
And I have to say I'm really disappointed with Rogers' column (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060307rogers,1,4976324.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) today, in which he asserts that Sosa should be the single-season home run leader with 66. Apparently Sosa has been clean while Bonds and McGwire were both cheating? :?:That would be an absolute traveshamockery. If they're going to clean up this mess, the only way is to bite the bullet and really do it. Half measures only make things worse.

samram
03-08-2006, 09:46 AM
Anyone catch Dusty's comments?

:rolleyes:

Oh, but it gets better...

No word yet on whether he had his son on his lap during the interview or not.:redneck
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060307dusty,1,4381890.story?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed


:D: He's a coward. It's so damning for him because he's either lying or exposed as a fool who doesn't know what's happening in his own clubhouse.

mjharrison72
03-08-2006, 09:53 AM
This calls for a steroid-enhanced Tomato Award:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4053&d=1141833132

itsnotrequired
03-08-2006, 09:57 AM
This calls for a steroid-enhanced Tomato Award:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4053&d=1141833132

So how long were you waiting to post that one?:tongue:

spawn
03-08-2006, 09:58 AM
I have a question for the most knowledgeable here...Jose Canseco is a publicity whore and an idiot. But if he doesn't come out with his book, does Congress hold the hearings on steroids? Does MLB and the Player's Union toughen their steroid abuse policy? Say what you want about him, but his book, IMHO, set these events in motion. And I remember most people, Palmeiro in particular, taking shots at him and flat out calling him a liar. It seems he's been telling the truth all along.

EDIT: I take that back...the Balco hearings set the wheels in motion, but Canseco's book calling out players contributed mightily to the process...

mjharrison72
03-08-2006, 09:59 AM
So how long were you waiting to post that one?:tongue:
Saw it hit 100 and quick threw something together... I'm pretty bored.

mccoydp
03-08-2006, 09:59 AM
This calls for a steroid-enhanced Tomato Award:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=4053&d=1141833132
Frickin' classic...very nice. :thumbsup:

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 10:26 AM
I have a question for the most knowledgeable here...Jose Canseco is a publicity whore and an idiot. But if he doesn't come out with his book, does Congress hold the hearings on steroids? Does MLB and the Player's Union toughen their steroid abuse policy? Say what you want about him, but his book, IMHO, set these events in motion. And I remember most people, Palmeiro in particular, taking shots at him and flat out calling him a liar. It seems he's been telling the truth all along.

EDIT: I take that back...the Balco hearings set the wheels in motion, but Canseco's book calling out players contributed mightily to the process...I think eventually it all comes out anyway. Stuff like this can't be swept under the rug indefinately. One of the most pathetic features of last spring's congressional hearings was that Canseco was the most honest person there.

spawn
03-08-2006, 10:41 AM
I think eventually it all comes out anyway. Stuff like this can't be swept under the rug indefinately. One of the most pathetic features of last spring's congressional hearings was that Canseco was the most honest person there.
Of that, there is no doubt.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-08-2006, 10:53 AM
*
Time to give Roger Maris the * he deserves.

* - Roger Maris' 61 home run season is the top home run mark among MLB players not under the influence of steroids, andro, HGH, the cream and or the clear.

PS - Phil Rogers' column is pathetic.

spawn
03-08-2006, 11:01 AM
I agree. Roger Maris is my eyes is still the single season homerun record holder.

And no matter what Bonds does, Hank Aaron is the career homerun leader, followed by Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. Period.

Baby Fisk
03-08-2006, 11:16 AM
This calls for a steroid-enhanced Tomato Award:

That big boy is awesome.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 11:43 AM
I have a question for the most knowledgeable here...Jose Canseco is a publicity whore and an idiot. But if he doesn't come out with his book, does Congress hold the hearings on steroids? Does MLB and the Player's Union toughen their steroid abuse policy? Say what you want about him, but his book, IMHO, set these events in motion. And I remember most people, Palmeiro in particular, taking shots at him and flat out calling him a liar. It seems he's been telling the truth all along.

EDIT: I take that back...the Balco hearings set the wheels in motion, but Canseco's book calling out players contributed mightily to the process...

Exactly, and I'll go you one further. This new book on Barry will have the same effect. Even though this book is filled with nothing but allegations, it succeeds in turning up the heat on those who are responsible for what has happened and making things right, namely Selig and the owners, the union, and the sportswriters (especially the ones with HOF votes). And yes, Congress is responsible, too. I guarantee at least a few of them smell publicity and votes grandstanding on this issue.

Just like Canseco's book, this Barry Roids book becomes the purple elephant in the room they cannot ignore. They look stupid and lose face if they do nothing. That's what makes it so effective. It's the catalyst to more substantive changes.

This steroids scandal has been unfolding for nearly three years now and we're still not to the bottom of it. It's far from being over. Hell, Paul Sullivan can still make Flintstone vitamin jokes in the Cubune and get them published!
:o:

:nandrolone
"I can always count on the Cubune to have my back!"

SOecks
03-08-2006, 11:50 AM
Why waste 3 good pitches? Just plunk him with the first pitch.

Very true, and get the umps in on it where they refuse to throw a pitcher out for plunking Bonds. It would be great to see him pout and whine about it before he just quits.

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 12:12 PM
Exactly, and I'll go you one further. This new book on Barry will have the same effect. Even though this book is filled with nothing but allegations, it succeeds in turning up the heat on those who are responsible for what has happened and making things right, namely Selig and the owners, the union, and the sportswriters (especially the ones with HOF votes). And yes, Congress is responsible, too. I guarantee at least a few of them smell publicity and votes grandstanding on this issue.

Just like Canseco's book, this Barry Roids book becomes the purple elephant in the room they cannot ignore. They look stupid and lose face if they do nothing. That's what makes it so effective. It's the catalyst to more substantive changes.

This steroids scandal has been unfolding for nearly three years now and we're still not to the bottom of it. It's far from being over. Hell, Paul Sullivan can still make Flintstone vitamin jokes in the Cubune and get them published!
:o:Don't forget, this is an election year. Look for LOTS more grandstanding by Congress.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 12:15 PM
Morrisey has a pretty good column (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cs-060307morrissey,1,5815675.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) on this in today's Trib:


And I have to say I'm really disappointed with Rogers' column (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060307rogers,1,4976324.column?coll=chi-sportsnew-hed) today, in which he asserts that Sosa should be the single-season home run leader with 66. Apparently Sosa has been clean while Bonds and McGwire were both cheating? :?:
Actually I read it exactly the opposite. Rogers was being just a bit facetious suggesting Sosa is the single-season record holder. He pretty much rips Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds for the same sins.

Meanwhile Morrissey, as is his nature, reveals himself to be the ultimate HYPOCRITE to take the allegations made by the SF Chronicle reporters and treat them as facts. This is the same guy who still holds a grudge against Kirby Puckett -- even after suffering a stroke -- about charges the man was acquitted of. But somehow he can't hold his vote giving HOF induction to Scammy Sosa? Yes, it all makes perfect sense inside the Alice in Wonderland world of the Cubune sports department...
:kukoo:

Kudos to the San Francisco Chronicle for pursuing this story! Too bad NOBODY in Chicago has the investigative temerity to take on their own sister division's LIES about what Rogers' describes as the "single-season homerun record holder." That's hitting just a little too close to home for the local outfit.

Never bite the hand that feeds. The level of hypocrisy and shame at the Cubune reached new depths in today's edition.
:o:

mjharrison72
03-08-2006, 12:22 PM
Meanwhile Morrissey, as is his nature, reveals himself to be the ultimate HYPOCRITE to take the allegations made by the SF Chronicle reporters and treat them as facts.
Think what you may, but I agree 100% on two main points about Bonds. One is that if a fraction of these allegations (he says 1/2, I said 1/10 in an earlier post, I think) are true, the guy deserves to never play ball again. The second is that one of the worst parts about this whole episode is the degree to which Bonds has lied about it and apparently has gone out of his way to not get caught (the SI article details that he was using certain products because and in such a way that they could not be detected).

My mother always taught me that if I did something wrong, that was one thing, but to lie about it made it much, much worse.

I realize these are allegations, innocent until proven guilty, etc., but I don't think it's wrong to speculate as to the ramifications, assuming they're true. I know people don't like Morrisey. He just pointed out the obvious today and I happen to agree with him.

EDIT: And as far as Sosa likely being just as guilty, it's worth noting that nobody recently published a book detailing Sosa's alleged steroid use. Would be nice if someone did some investigative work, but I doubt there's such a wealth of details there in Sosa's case.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 12:32 PM
EDIT: And as far as Sosa likely being just as guilty, it's worth noting that nobody recently published a book detailing Sosa's alleged steroid use. Would be nice if someone did some investigative work, but I doubt there's such a wealth of details there in Sosa's case.

And why, pray tell, do you suppose ALL OF US would just accept that no such "wealth of details" exists about Scammy Sosa's case, not just his alleged juicing but the cover up of details regarding his corked bat inside Wrigley Field, too?

Could the answer be as simple as the fact that the San Francisco Chronicle doesn't own the San Francisco Giants?

You're being way too generous regarding the conflict of interest here.

SoLongFrank
03-08-2006, 12:32 PM
The baseball almanac site has done just that. The asterisk next to Maris' 61 was originally put there to draw attention to the fact Maris had more ab's than the Babe to reach that mark. What the site has done is it replaced that explanation with one stating "steroids free".

I still believe Barry is a HOFer. I blame Sosa & Mac for Barry's demise. He would have reached the 600 HR mark without doping. When I look at all of his accomplishments & how much better he was than both of these guys I have a hard time trashing this baseball player. The man is despicable but the player is phenomenal.

Has any MLB player ever been charged or prosecuted for doping by the Fed? I don't even recall Canseco facing that threat. Is it because the evidence is to weak for a legitimate prosecution or because MLB has strong lobbyist friends in the Justice department? What about the bettors?

It's not about what you know but rather what you can prove. I believe if the evidence were strong enough to prosecute or sue teams, players, & MLB as a whole for fraud it would have happened by now.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14043754.htm - Just how widespread was the problem & what can MLB do to fix it? Scarlet letters seem the only reasonable option.

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 12:35 PM
The baseball almanac site has done just that. The asterisk next to Maris' 61 was originally put there to draw attention to the fact Maris had more ab's than the Babe to reach that mark. What the site has done is it replaced that explanation with one stating "steroids free".

I still believe Barry is a HOFer. I blame Sosa & Mac for Barry's demise. He would have reached the 600 HR mark without doping. When I look at all of his accomplishments & how much better he was than both of these guys I have a hard time trashing this baseball player. The man is despicable but the player is phenomenal.

Has any MLB player ever been charged or prosecuted for doping by the Fed? I don't even recall Canseco facing that threat. Is it because the evidence is to weak for a legitimate prosecution or because MLB has strong lobbyist friends in the Justice department? What about the bettors?

It's not about what you know but rather what you can prove. I believe if the evidence were strong enough to prosecute or sue teams, players, & MLB as a whole for fraud it would have happened by now.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14043754.htm - Just how widespread was the problem & what can MLB do to fix it? Scarlet letters seem the only reasonable option.Bonds WAS a HOF'er. He forfeited that just as surely as Pete Rose did. If you can't do the time...

Baby Fisk
03-08-2006, 12:35 PM
I blame Sosa & Mac for Barry's demise. He would have reached the 600 HR mark without doping. When I look at all of his accomplishments & how much better he was than both of these guys I have a hard time trashing this baseball player. The man is despicable but the player is phenomenal.

Come on. At what point do you think Barry should actually take some responsibility here? :?:


Poor Barry. Poor, poor Barry...

mjharrison72
03-08-2006, 12:55 PM
And why, pray tell, do you suppose ALL OF US would just accept that no such "wealth of details" exists about Scammy Sosa's case, not just his alleged juicing but the cover up of details regarding his corked bat inside Wrigley Field, too?

Could the answer be as simple as the fact that the San Francisco Chronicle doesn't own the San Francisco Giants?

You're being way too generous regarding the conflict of interest here.
Could be... or it could also be the fact that Sosa apparently wasn't getting his juice from a place that was the subject of a federal grand jury investigation and whose founder is now serving time.

Don't get me wrong, I defniitely see the conflict of interest... I just don't think the material is there. I can't believe I'm saying it, but Sosa appears to have been smarter about cheating than Bonds was.

Baby Fisk
03-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Don't get me wrong, I defniitely see the conflict of interest... I just don't think the material is there. I can't believe I'm saying it, but Sosa appears to have been smarter about cheating than Bonds was.

Smartest man in the room? Far left.

(Frank was on TV and not technically "in the room", so he's excluded.)

http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/05/03/18/steroids.jpg

spawn
03-08-2006, 01:06 PM
Don't get me wrong, I defniitely see the conflict of interest... I just don't think the material is there. I can't believe I'm saying it, but Sosa appears to have been smarter about cheating than Bonds was.

Sosa was smart about his use for two reasons:

1. He did his outside of the US
2. He didn't leave a trail for anyone to follow

I feel for the Maris family. Roger can't catch a break. It was bad enough he couldn't get out of Bae Ruth's shadow while alive...now he's been overshadowed by the 'roid boys after he's been gone. It's a crying shame.

daveeym
03-08-2006, 01:12 PM
The baseball almanac site has done just that. The asterisk next to Maris' 61 was originally put there to draw attention to the fact Maris had more ab's than the Babe to reach that mark. What the site has done is it replaced that explanation with one stating "steroids free".

I still believe Barry is a HOFer. I blame Sosa & Mac for Barry's demise. He would have reached the 600 HR mark without doping. When I look at all of his accomplishments & how much better he was than both of these guys I have a hard time trashing this baseball player. The man is despicable but the player is phenomenal.

Has any MLB player ever been charged or prosecuted for doping by the Fed? I don't even recall Canseco facing that threat. Is it because the evidence is to weak for a legitimate prosecution or because MLB has strong lobbyist friends in the Justice department? What about the bettors?

It's not about what you know but rather what you can prove. I believe if the evidence were strong enough to prosecute or sue teams, players, & MLB as a whole for fraud it would have happened by now.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14043754.htm - Just how widespread was the problem & what can MLB do to fix it? Scarlet letters seem the only reasonable option. You really are delusional. Get a grip and realize these guys are people and not Gods and they deserve everything they got coming to them for cheating. :rolleyes:

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 01:13 PM
Could be... or it could also be the fact that Sosa apparently wasn't getting his juice from a place that was the subject of a federal grand jury investigation and whose founder is now serving time.

Don't get me wrong, I defniitely see the conflict of interest... I just don't think the material is there. I can't believe I'm saying it, but Sosa appears to have been smarter about cheating than Bonds was.
Smarter? Absolutely. His "no habla ingles" performance in front of Congress was pure genius.

However Sosa has been luckier, too. For twenty-five years the legends, yarns, half-truths, myths, lies, and utter whoppers disseminated from Clark & Addison have been swallowed whole by the local media, particularly the Chicago Tribune. No fact better reveals the utter conflict of interest over the Cubune's ownership of the Cubs, than the complete lack of specifics regarding Sosa as a cheater and a juicer.

Has anyone ever gotten on a plane at O'hare and paid a visit to Santo Domingo? ANYONE? Do you suppose an untold story is waiting there? I do.

I'm reminded of what one famous political operative once said, "Drag a $100 around a trailer park and you'll get any story you want." Somebody in Santo Domingo has the goods on the Cubune's self-described Gladiator. And somebody else can corroborate it. Of course if you don't want to hear the story, you never bother to get the details.

Very lucky indeed.

CLR01
03-08-2006, 01:20 PM
I'm reminded of what one famous political operative once said, "Drag a $100 around a trailer park and you'll get any story you want." Somebody in Santo Domingo has the goods on the Cubune's self-described Gladiator. And somebody else can corroborate it. Of course if you don't want to hear the story, you never bother to get the details.

Very lucky indeed.


As WSI exclusive? I'll go, I could use a vacation. I only fly first class though. :wink:

ilsox7
03-08-2006, 01:20 PM
I read through about half of the thread, so apologies if someone brought this up. But if the evidence supporting the allegations in this book are as strong as everyone seems to be making them out to be, then Mr. Bonds will be facis charges of perjury in the near future. He may be headed to jail here in the next couple of years.

SoLongFrank
03-08-2006, 01:22 PM
With respect to Roger's articles I would rather have Barry owning the records than ShamME. Roger's is full of crap. In that article he didn't even mention the story out the DR where Sosa reported being robbed of a paper bag of cash worth 10's of $1000's. The hotel was infamous for arranging such deals & the DR is infamous for being one of the greatest suppliers of the dope.

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/index.ssf?/base/sports/1141802743195160.xml&coll=7
In 2004 Barry's AB/HR rate was 8.28. In 2005 it was about the same. That's 2 yrs after the testing & penalities came into effect in MLB.

What he did was unethical but still within the rules of MLB at the time. Ty Cobb would sharpen his spikes for the sole intent of drawing blood from a fielder when he slid into a base. Unethical? Yes. Illegal? No.
The HOF is filled with unethical players over generations of MLB play. Some had even commited illegal acts but had made the HOF before that came out.

There is no corked bat episode with Barry. No failed drug test. No suspensions either.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/la-sp-plaschke8mar08,1,7953198.column?page=2&cset=true&ctrack=1&coll=la-headlines-sports

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 01:24 PM
As WSI exclusive? I'll go, I could use a vacation. I only fly first class though. :wink:

No problem. You can have your vacation in Santo Domingo while the rest of us fly on to Saint John.

:redneck

voodoochile
03-08-2006, 01:34 PM
I still believe Barry is a HOFer. I blame Sosa & Mac for Barry's demise. He would have reached the 600 HR mark without doping. When I look at all of his accomplishments & how much better he was than both of these guys I have a hard time trashing this baseball player. The man is despicable but the player is phenomenal.

...

It's not about what you know but rather what you can prove. I believe if the evidence were strong enough to prosecute or sue teams, players, & MLB as a whole for fraud it would have happened by now.

Denial... it's not just a river in Egypt.

You blame Sosa and Mac? Do you actually believe it? I can't believe you actually typed it. Did ShamME* hold a gun to Barry's head? Did Mac threaten to kick Barroid's ass if he didn't take the drugs? :?:

Barroid took the drugs. Barroid did it not to make him a HOF but because he couldn't handle the ego related issues at not being the best power hitter in the game. You are right... Barroid is a bad person and this doesn't make it less obvious - just the opposite in fact.

MLB won't go after these guys hard because they don't want to admit they turned a blind eye to it. There were allegations of owners signing for packages when this all broke open last spring. You really think these guys knew nothing? They are neck deep in the **** and it stinks to high heaven. You can start with ringleader and master carny Bud "It happened on my watch" Selig.

George is dead right. It is going to get a LOT worse before it gets better. Until they enact some serious doping tests, the players will continue to use and the owners really don't care because the money continues to rain down on them like... well... rain...

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 01:38 PM
With respect to Roger's articles I would rather have Barry owning the records than ShamME. Roger's is full of crap. In that article he didn't even mention the story out the DR where Sosa reported being robbed of a paper bag of cash worth 10's of $1000's. The hotel was infamous for arranging such deals & the DR is infamous for being one of the greatest suppliers of the dope.

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/index.ssf?/base/sports/1141802743195160.xml&coll=7
In 2004 Barry's AB/HR rate was 8.28. In 2005 it was about the same. That's 2 yrs after the testing & penalities came into effect in MLB.

What he did was unethical but still within the rules of MLB at the time. Ty Cobb would sharpen his spikes for the sole intent of drawing blood from a fielder when he slid into a base. Unethical? Yes. Illegal? No.
The HOF is filled with unethical players over generations of MLB play. Some had even commited illegal acts but had made the HOF before that came out.

There is no corked bat episode with Barry. No failed drug test. No suspensions either.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baseball/mlb/la-sp-plaschke8mar08,1,7953198.column?page=2&cset=true&ctrack=1&coll=la-headlines-sportsYou are definately delusional. Do you think Barry stopped using just because of some trivial urine tests? *****

SoLongFrank
03-08-2006, 01:44 PM
IMO Barry won't walk away. He's never shown much appreciation or respect for the HOF so I don't think he cares about that aspect of his career. As long as there is a team out there wanting his bat he'll play.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuFBgmmirFxhMud8bDnUT4ARvLYF?slug=jp-barrybonds0307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Charges never came against Palmeiro because the govt could not build a case supporting an intent to perjure himself. It can't be by accident. It has to be pre-medidated.



The same problem exists with the tax-evasion charge. Prosecutors have to prove Bonds had an intent to purposefully not pay taxes with respect to his ex-girlfriend. I don't see that happening.

ilsox7
03-08-2006, 01:46 PM
IMO Barry won't walk away. He's never shown much appreciation or respect for the HOF so I don't think he cares about that aspect of his career. As long as there is a team out there wanting his bat he'll play.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuFBgmmirFxhMud8bDnUT4ARvLYF?slug=jp-barrybonds0307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Charges never came against Palmeiro because the govt could not build a case supporting an intent to perjure himself. It can't be by accident. It has to be pre-medidated.



The same problem exists with the tax-evasion charge. Prosecutors have to prove Bonds had an intent to purposefully not pay taxes with respect to his ex-girlfriend. I don't see that happening.

If the allegations that Bonds knew he was taking steroids all along are true, then he perjured himself.

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 01:58 PM
IMO Barry won't walk away. He's never shown much appreciation or respect for the HOF so I don't think he cares about that aspect of his career. As long as there is a team out there wanting his bat he'll play.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AuFBgmmirFxhMud8bDnUT4ARvLYF?slug=jp-barrybonds0307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Charges never came against Palmeiro because the govt could not build a case supporting an intent to perjure himself. It can't be by accident. It has to be pre-medidated.



The same problem exists with the tax-evasion charge. Prosecutors have to prove Bonds had an intent to purposefully not pay taxes with respect to his ex-girlfriend. I don't see that happening.Tax courts don't work like regular courts. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. You're almost guilty until proven innocent.

SoLongFrank
03-08-2006, 02:13 PM
Tax courts don't work like regular courts. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. You're almost guilty until proven innocent.

If there's reasonable cause he's not going to escape fines & penalties but I don't see him spending one day in prison for it. The government is more interested in his money than Bonds himself.

chaerulez
03-08-2006, 04:00 PM
I love how people still try and defend and apologize for this tool.

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 04:49 PM
I love how people still try and defend and apologize for this tool.Poor, poor Barry. He's so misunderstood. It's all McGwire and Sosa's fault he turned to taking steroids. And anyway, he didn't KNOW they were steroids. He thought they were just flaxseed oil. It's his trainer's fault for misleading him. And besides, this whole thing is just racially motivated anyway. Everybody's just trying to bring down poor Barry. Maybe we should just count 90% of his HR. Then he could still be in the Hall of Fame, because he was such a great player. We shouldn't hold any of this against him.

http://www.moralminority.org/graphics/mm/steamingpi-1.gif

Viva Medias B's
03-08-2006, 04:55 PM
Boers & Bernstein have been on the war path on this issue after the Sox game. And now they're playing Dusty Baker's inane comments from today. Get ready for them to unload on Dusty. Dusty said he doesn't like cheating. Uh, Dusty? What did you say when Sammy Sosa was caught...

Ol' No. 2
03-08-2006, 05:20 PM
"The exploitation of Barry's good name and these attempts to eviscerate his sensational accomplishments in all phases of the game of baseball may make those responsible wealthy," Bonds attorney Michael Rains said in a six-paragraph statement that was sent to MLB.com on Wednesday, "but in the end they need to live with themselves. Beyond this, Barry has no comment, either now or in the foreseeable future."

Three guesses what is conspicuously absent from their statements.

Inklae (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060308&content_id=1340237&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

samram
03-08-2006, 05:23 PM
Three guesses what is conspicuously absent from their statements.

Inklae (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060308&content_id=1340237&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

Yeah, that's the old "Why'd you have to go and tell everyone?" statement.

Jjav829
03-08-2006, 05:24 PM
Three guesses what is conspicuously absent from their statements.

Inklae (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060308&content_id=1340237&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

3 guesses, huh?

Some type of comment on the Cintron deal?

A prediction for the WBC?

Or maybe just some type of denial of the accusations?

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 05:28 PM
He can't say one ****ing word without perjurying himself.

I love it. I hope he keeps saying, "No comment." It ought to help the book's sales immensely.

:cool:

:nandrolone
"Try this, Barry. 'No habla ingles.'"

downstairs
03-08-2006, 05:51 PM
Forget purjury... what every happened to just taking illegal drugs?

If I, a normal citizen, get caught with someone else's pot in my car... do you think I'm getting out of jail?

Circumstantial evidence is evidence. Hearsay is evidence. ADMITING IT IN COURT is evidence.

The FBI ought to spend the few hours it'll take to arrest Bonds, Sosa, Palmero, McGwire and let them stand trial while in prison.

longshot7
03-08-2006, 06:12 PM
He's still the greatest player of our generation. I don't care what drugs (illegal or not) he's done.

SoLongFrank
03-08-2006, 06:43 PM
Exactly. What he accomplished thru 1998 is impressive in it's own right & worthy of HOF status.

Likewise it's ridiculous to just throw out his last 6 yrs worth of numbers. At the very least you should take the min of his career avg's thru 1998 AND what he accomplished in 1999-2005.

You are still looking at close to 600 HR. More than Sosa & less than Mays. Try doing that with Sosa, Palmeiro, & Mac & they don't even make it to 500.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 06:58 PM
He's still the greatest criminal of our generation. I don't care what drugs (illegal or not) he's done.
Fixed it for you.
:wink:

Hal Chase and Barry Bonds for the Hall of Fame! What's the Constitution between friends?
:roflmao:

MarySwiss
03-08-2006, 07:08 PM
He's still the greatest player of our generation. I don't care what drugs (illegal or not) he's done.

I sincerely hope you're kidding, but somehow, I don't think so. The greatest player of our generation? :puking:

kevin57
03-08-2006, 07:24 PM
He's still the greatest player of our generation. I don't care what drugs (illegal or not) he's done.

If you mean that he had/has tremendous talent, even without/before the 'roids, then yes, Barry Bonds is a great player...but the fact is what he did to juice himself and hence his numbers lowers his place significantly. Finally, avoiding, lying, and blaming others for problems he himself created places him near the bottom in terms of character and integrity.

He--and admittedly many others--are threatening to make the game we love a joke. But that issue then gets us to Uncle Bud and his cohorts, and there's plenty of responsibility there, too. And why not throw in Fehr and the union that also doesn't seem to care about the health of their members and the integrity of the "craft" they are meant to represent?

SoLongFrank
03-08-2006, 08:02 PM
If we include A-Rod & Pujols in our generation (& I think we do) then they probably are on a pace to eclipse Barry.

cheeses_h_rice
03-08-2006, 08:31 PM
Smarter? Absolutely. His "no habla ingles" performance in front of Congress was pure genius.

However Sosa has been luckier, too. For twenty-five years the legends, yarns, half-truths, myths, lies, and utter whoppers disseminated from Clark & Addison have been swallowed whole by the local media, particularly the Chicago Tribune. No fact better reveals the utter conflict of interest over the Cubune's ownership of the Cubs, than the complete lack of specifics regarding Sosa as a cheater and a juicer.

Has anyone ever gotten on a plane at O'hare and paid a visit to Santo Domingo? ANYONE? Do you suppose an untold story is waiting there? I do.

I'm reminded of what one famous political operative once said, "Drag a $100 around a trailer park and you'll get any story you want." Somebody in Santo Domingo has the goods on the Cubune's self-described Gladiator. And somebody else can corroborate it. Of course if you don't want to hear the story, you never bother to get the details.

Very lucky indeed.
I'll help the Cubune reporters get a head start.

Sosa is probably the biggest athlete to ever emerge from the Dominican Republic. He is undoubtedly one of the richest, and as a result, the most powerful. With the flash of a few $100 bills, Sham-ME* can likely get whatever the hell he wants in his native country, and that includes the acquiescence of scientists, gym rats, and other steroid enablers.

Some circumstantial evidence, too:

1. Manny Alexander being busted for steroid possession in 2000 (http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LOCAL/northeast/07/25/boh.alexander.steroids/). So what?, you might ask. Well, consider this about Manny & Sham-ME*: Manny's bio (http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/alexama02.shtml) shows him from the town of San Pedro de Macoris, D.R. Sham-ME*'s bio (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sosasa01.shtml) shows him from...the town of San Pedro de Macoris, D.R. Besides being from the same town, it appears that Sham-ME* and Manny were friends (http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20050427/SP_002.htm) as well as teammates (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHC/1998.shtml). The guy that was driving Alexander's car has stated that the steroids were not his (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/04/27/batboy_finds_it_tough_to_pick_up_his_life?pg=2), but look was quick to help pile on him -- Sham-ME* Sosa:
"Some of Alexander's very famous friends rushed to his (Alexander's) defense. Chicago Cubs slugger Sammy Sosa told Chicago reporters, "The person he gave the car to . . . has a negative record."
2. The Rick Reilly blowup (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/07/02/life_of_reilly/) by Sham-ME*:

Sosa looked at me as if I were covered in leeches.


"Why are you telling me to do this?" he said. "You don't tell me what to do."


I tried to explain that I wasn't telling him to do it, I was just wondering if he didn't think it would be a good move for him and the game.


"You're not my father!" he said, starting to yell. "Why do you tell me what to do? Are you trying to get me in trouble?"


I asked how he could get in trouble if he wasn't doing anything wrong.
"I don't need to go nowhere," he growled. "I'll wait for the players' association to decide what to do. If they make that decision [to test], I will be first in line."


But didn't he think a star stepping forward now, without being told to be tested....


"This interview is over!" He started looking around for security. "Over, motherf-----!!"
Doesn't sound like the words of an innocent man.

3. The 2002 Home Run Derby.

http://espn.starwave.com/media/mlb/2002/0708/photo/a_sosa_vt.jpg

4. The dropoff in Sham-ME*'s production since steroid testing was introduced. From 64 HRs in 2001 to 40 in 2003 to 14 in 2005. Also, don't forget the jump he made from 36 in 1997 to 66 in 1998.

5. The cork incident. If he would knowingly cheat with cork, I have no problem believing he would also cheat with illegal substances.

6. His testimony (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/291600p-249681c.html) during the Congressional hearings. Why parse your statement like this:

I have never taken illegal performance-enhancing drugs. I have never injected myself or had anyone inject me with anything. I have not broken the laws of the United States or the laws of the Dominican Republic. I have been tested as recently as 2004 and I am clean.

As this article states:

A lawyer's delight. The statement leaves out the possibility that he legally took anabolic steroids in pill, cream or other non-injectible form, from a licenced physician in the U.S. or the Dominican Republic.
This still leaves open the question whether steroids are even illegal in the D.R. They're easily obtainable in Mexico, so chances are they're easy to get in the D.R., too, which is the country Sham-ME* trained in during every winter.

Anyway, these are just a few glaring items that could be looked into. We now know that Bonds and McGwire juiced to hit 73 and 70 home runs, and both of those players have consistently been power hitters throughout their careers. So it seems like a no-brainer to believe that the little former runt Sham-ME* juiced like a mother****er to hit the ridiculous numbers of 66 and 64.

jehosaphat
03-08-2006, 08:35 PM
He's still the greatest player of our generation. I don't care what drugs (illegal or not) he's done.

He might have had the talent to be the greatest player of our generation, but we will never know, will we? He should go down in history as a cheater. A tragic figure who was a five tool player that was seemingly bound for the hall of fame at one point in time. However, selfish greed led to his demise.

Performance on the baseball field is the result of (a) raw talent, (b) hard work, and (c) luck. But, Bonds added to the equation. He took steroids - a lot of them. Steroids increase one's "raw talent" in the sense that these artificial substances increase one's strength and reaction time. His taking steroids is akin to him slipping sleeping pills into all of his opponents pre-game meals. There is no difference. He gave himself an unfair advantage over everyone who didn't take steroids evertime he stepped to plate, everytime a ball was hit his way.

Bonds' HR record is in the same league as Ben Johnson's gold medal (he was the Canadian sprinter whose steroid use prior to the Olympic 100 yard dash enabled him to "win"). Bonds is in the same boat as Tonya Harding - smashing the kneecap of your rival gave her an unfair advantage and at one point in time she was considered the #1 figure skater in the USA. At one point in time Bonds was considered the HR champ, but just as Johnson's and Harding's acheivments were shams, Bonds' HR record is not valid because we know he took steroids - tons of them - to get the record.

Bonds didn't take one dose out of ignorance and never do it again. He repeatedly took performance enhancing drugs which helped him gain records and accolades that he didn't earn. His cheating won games for his team that the team did not deserve to win. His team made it to the World Series in 2002 because they cheated.

He does not belong in the HOF. He does not belong in baseball. It sickening to hear people defend him,

PaleHoseGeorge
03-08-2006, 08:59 PM
I'll help the Cubune reporters get a head start.

Sosa is probably the biggest athlete to ever emerge from the Dominican Republic. He is undoubtedly one of the richest, and as a result, the most powerful. With the flash of a few $100 bills, Sham-ME* can likely get whatever the hell he wants in his native country, and that includes the acquiescence of scientists, gym rats, and other steroid enablers.

Some circumstantial evidence, too: ....
Nicely done. You recapped all the facts and evidence of Sosa as a liar, a cheat, and a juicer more thoroughly in just one post at White Sox Interactive than has Dan McGrath or any of his paid stooges at the Cubune in five-plus years of covering the Gladiator in their daily sports section.

But there is no evidence Sosa used roids so let's all agree to give him our Hall of Fame vote... and let's give him the single-season homerun record, too.

:kukoo:

http://www.sea.fi/foto/alice_in_wonderland_1951.jpg <--- Cubune Sports staff meeting

voodoochile
03-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Three guesses what is conspicuously absent from their statements.

Inklae (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060308&content_id=1340237&vkey=spt2006news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

He said what? Where's the threat to sue? Where's the adamant denial? Where's ANYTHING that says he isn't every bit the scum sucking cheat and liar they say he is?

Some one cue the Daleks, Barroid needs to be gone...

voodoochile
03-08-2006, 10:16 PM
He's still the greatest player of our generation. I don't care what drugs (illegal or not) he's done.

Without the drugs is he markedly better than Griffey, Manny and Frank?

beckett21
03-08-2006, 10:18 PM
He does not belong in the HOF. He does not belong in baseball. It sickening to hear people defend him.

This statement sums up my opinion quite nicely.

TomBradley72
03-09-2006, 10:19 AM
This whole report also says alot of the major newspapers in each of the "juicers" major markets:

San Francisco- thorough investigative reporting of Bonds, backed up by 100's of pages of documentation, transcripts, tape recordings, etc.
Chicago- most recent articles about Sosa have either supported his induction into the HoF (~70% of the Cubune "journalists") or as previously posted...arguing that Sosa is now the legitimate holder of the single season HR record.
St. Louis- "crickets"The Chicago and St. Louis media look like midwest rubes compared to the work done by the SF writers.

SoLongFrank
03-09-2006, 12:25 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca091.html
I didn't like the fact he suggested Thomas doped in college. He obviously didn't look at any of his other family members or his high school photos. The guy earned a scholarship as a Tight End at one of the biggest football schools in the S East. He's had no history of nagging injuries either. Broken bones do not constitute nagging injuries.

He mentioned Sosa only in reference to throwing out the Cubs 2003 NLCS appearance. The idea being if you strip out the player you have to strip out his team's accomplishments as well.
http://www.angelfire.com/il2/cubssuck/shammy.htm
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/3372553.htm
A corked bat can add 1% to the distance of a well hit fly ball. Sosa cheated every way he can think of.

The thought of Sosa being considered the owner of the single season HR record makes me want to puke. I'd rather have Bonds own that record than Sosa. Lesser of two evils.

chaerulez
03-09-2006, 12:43 PM
Exactly. What he accomplished thru 1998 is impressive in it's own right & worthy of HOF status.

Likewise it's ridiculous to just throw out his last 6 yrs worth of numbers. At the very least you should take the min of his career avg's thru 1998 AND what he accomplished in 1999-2005.

You are still looking at close to 600 HR. More than Sosa & less than Mays. Try doing that with Sosa, Palmeiro, & Mac & they don't even make it to 500.

I'm tired of this constant crap you are spewing, because that's what is ridiculous. Your still defending him just because he was a great player before he took steroids. So what? He decided to take steroids and that's the bottom line issue. He shouldn't be in the hall of fame because he decided to taint his numbers and take steroids. Just like Pete Rose was a great player before he decided to gamble. Just like Joe Jackson was a great player before he decided to throw some games. Just like I'm sure convicted murderers exist that never had a criminal record before. We shouldn't say, "Oh let's just induct the pre-1999 Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame because he was great before steroids".

No.

He is a piece of crap for talking the steroids and should be banned. He could've taken the high road or decided to set the wheels in motion to expose McGwire and Sosa. If Barry truly felt he wasn't doing anything wrong all this time he never would've denied anything. Bonds is a sorry piece of crap and he's already made millions from the game while abusing everything the sport stands for and its fans. It's time for him to go.

daveeym
03-09-2006, 12:51 PM
I'm tired of this constant crap you are spewing, because that's what is ridiculous. Your still defending him just because he was a great player before he took steroids. So what? He decided to take steroids and that's the bottom line issue. He shouldn't be in the hall of fame because he decided to taint his numbers and take steroids. Just like Pete Rose was a great player before he decided to gamble. Just like Joe Jackson was a great player before he decided to throw some games. Just like I'm sure convicted murderers exist that never had a criminal record before. We shouldn't say, "Oh let's just induct the pre-1999 Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame because he was great before steroids".

No.

He is a piece of crap for talking the steroids and should be banned. He could've taken the high road or decided to set the wheels in motion to expose McGwire and Sosa. If Barry truly felt he wasn't doing anything wrong all this time he never would've denied anything. Bonds is a sorry piece of crap and he's already made millions from the game while abusing everything the sport stands for and its fans. It's time for him to go.:thumbsup:

wdelaney72
03-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Even ProFootballTalk.com is getting in on this. I think Florio summed it up really well:

"We've received several e-mails from readers reminding us that, at the time, taking 'roids wasn't against the rules, so Barry shouldn't be punished.

Let's get this one straight. At the time, it wasn't against the rules. But it was, you see, AGAINST THE LAW.

Bonds, on the other hand, is a cheater. And if you won't call him a cheater because there was no rule against using compounds intended to build muscle mass in cattle so that he could muscle a long out over the fence, then let's call him what he really is.

A criminal."
Linky (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

daveeym
03-09-2006, 01:09 PM
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46188

areilly
03-09-2006, 01:11 PM
In my head I can picture a scene, not unlike the highly-cinematized scene of the little boy going up to Shoeless Joe...

Kid: "Say it ain't so, Barry! Say it ain't so!"

Barry: "Get the **** out of my face, kid. Stop trying to destroy me. You jealous? You angry? You don't know me. You don't know what I'm doing, what I'm about. Who are you kid? What have you got but something someone said. I know the truth, I know my truth, and my truth is the truth, so what are you gonna do? Ooh, Barry said this. Ooh, what's Barry gonna do next? What's Barry gonna say next? There's real problems in this country. Where's that? Where's that truth? What are you gonna do about it, kid? This interview is over!"

samram
03-09-2006, 01:15 PM
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46188

Good find.

samram
03-09-2006, 01:16 PM
In my head I can picture a scene, not unlike the highly-cinematized scene of the little boy going up to Shoeless Joe...

Kid: "Say it ain't so, Barry! Say it ain't so!"

Barry: "Get the **** out of my face, kid. Stop trying to destroy me. You jealous? You angry? You don't know me. You don't know what I'm doing, what I'm about. Who are you kid? What have you got but something someone said. I know the truth, I know my truth, and my truth is the truth, so what are you gonna do? Ooh, Barry said this. Ooh, what's Barry gonna do next? What's Barry gonna say next? There's real problems in this country. Where's that? Where's that truth? What are you gonna do about it, kid? This interview is over!"

You forgot the part where Barry demand the kid give him names. Names damnit!:D:

SouthSide_HitMen
03-09-2006, 01:33 PM
Let's get this one straight. At the time, it wasn't against the rules. But it was, you see, AGAINST THE LAW.


The problem is, there are many controlled substances that are against the law.

The jellybean jar full of greenies placed there by MLB for almost 50 years - AGAINST THE LAW.

The coke, crack, pot, acid and other narcotics taken over the past several decades by players - AGAINST THE LAW.

Heck management brakes their own rules - Bud Selig takes loans from Carl Pohlad, Collusion I, Collusion II.

I do not defend Bonds. What I am saying is the only thing baseball will do is make as limited a comment and provide the bare minimum enforcement due to public outrage and move on. Baseball players and management for decades have been involved in illegal and immoral activity. There will be new scandals, new laws violated and new types of performance enhancement drugs which will make the cream and the clear look like a placebo. Baseball will always be 10 steps behind the cheaters (because they choose to be - until they get an independent source of testing like the WADA with blood tests to detect HGH they will never catch current cheaters) and MLB WANTS TO FAIL TO CATCH CHEATERS, BUD WANTS LESS THAN 1% POSITIVES.

If MLB were serious about this, it would use the Olympic / International standard to root out the cheaters. They are not and will not be unless Congress threatens their antitrust exemption.

SoLongFrank
03-09-2006, 02:20 PM
I'll just agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me of any legitmate claim to trashing Barry's entire career. He did enough prior to 1999 to solidify his status as a HOFer.

Schilling quote: "50% of the players are probably using & the other 50% are thinking about it."

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiwalk1.shtml
Barry Bonds #1 2311 Mark McGuire #33 1317

The point? Bonds is near the top in every offensive category imaginable. The other roids boys are not. They aren't in his league. Ignoring what he has accomplished in his career without the dope is as bad as ignoring what he's done with it.

If in 3 yrs if Thome were to retire & Bonds was still able to run & play DH for the White Sox I want him there. The man can flat out hit the baseball.

samram
03-09-2006, 02:25 PM
I'll just agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me of any legitmate claim to trashing Barry's entire career. He did enough prior to 1999 to solidify his status as a HOFer.

Schilling quote: "50% of the players are probably using & the other 50% are thinking about it."

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiwalk1.shtml
Barry Bonds #1 2311 Mark McGuire #33 1317

The point? Bonds is near the top in every offensive category imaginable. The other roids boys are not. They aren't in his league. Ignoring what he has accomplished in his career without the dope is as bad as ignoring what he's done with it.

If in 3 yrs if Thome were to retire & Bonds was still able to run & play DH for the White Sox I want him there. The man can flat out hit the baseball.

It must be awful to see the value of the Barry Bonds shrine you built is now worth less than the cardboard you used to build it.

And if Bonds is ever on the White Sox, I would have a really big problem with that.

Nellie_Fox
03-09-2006, 03:09 PM
If in 3 yrs if Thome were to retire & Bonds was still able to run & play DH for the White Sox I want him there. The man can flat out hit the baseball.Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. I would ignore the Sox until he went away, and I mean that.

Ol' No. 2
03-09-2006, 03:16 PM
I'll just agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me of any legitmate claim to trashing Barry's entire career. He did enough prior to 1999 to solidify his status as a HOFer.

Schilling quote: "50% of the players are probably using & the other 50% are thinking about it."

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiwalk1.shtml
Barry Bonds #1 2311 Mark McGuire #33 1317

The point? Bonds is near the top in every offensive category imaginable. The other roids boys are not. They aren't in his league. Ignoring what he has accomplished in his career without the dope is as bad as ignoring what he's done with it.

If in 3 yrs if Thome were to retire & Bonds was still able to run & play DH for the White Sox I want him there. The man can flat out hit the baseball.*** kind of twisted half-assed logic is that? I'm sure John Wayne Gacy was a really nice guy, other than the fact he murdered people and buried them in his basement.

Baby Fisk
03-09-2006, 03:24 PM
*** kind of twisted half-assed logic is that? I'm sure John Wayne Gacy was a really nice guy, other than the fact he murdered people and buried them in his basement.

*sprays drink all over keyboard* :rolling:

Jerko
03-09-2006, 03:31 PM
*** kind of twisted half-assed logic is that? I'm sure John Wayne Gacy was a really nice guy, other than the fact he murdered people and buried them in his basement.

Yeah, but murdering people and burying them in one's basement wasn't banned in baseball. Good thing he didn't bury anybody in a dugout; he'd still be with us today. :rolleyes:

daveeym
03-09-2006, 03:31 PM
*** kind of twisted half-assed logic is that? I'm sure John Wayne Gacy was a really nice guy, other than the fact he murdered people and buried them in his basement. He was a hell of a carpenter before he started knocking people off. His artwork was lacking though. Had a real creepy family experience with some Gacy artifacts, flat out creepy and bone chilling.

Anyways, I like the suggestion by the football guy. I'm just going to refer to Bonds as the criminal from now on.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-09-2006, 03:41 PM
Yeah, but murdering people and burying them in one's basement wasn't banned in baseball. Good thing he didn't bury anybody in a dugout; he'd still be with us today. :rolleyes:

As long as one doesn't call a bookie, everything including cancelling a season (1994), contracting teams for cash loans (Selig and Pohlad), drugs (Steve Howe et al), steroids (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Giambi) and more is Kosher in MLB.

If John Wayne Gacy was a ballplayer with Sosa numbers, he would have been given a 33 day suspension, one for each murder, and Tribune writers and others would be defending their vote for Gacy to be elected to the HOF (while demanding a pardon on their editorial page).

longshot7
03-09-2006, 04:44 PM
At one point in time Bonds was considered the HR champ, but just as Johnson's and Harding's acheivments were shams, Bonds' HR record is not valid because we know he took steroids - tons of them - to get the record.

Bonds didn't take one dose out of ignorance and never do it again. He repeatedly took performance enhancing drugs which helped him gain records and accolades that he didn't earn. His cheating won games for his team that the team did not deserve to win. His team made it to the World Series in 2002 because they cheated.

He does not belong in the HOF. He does not belong in baseball. It sickening to hear people defend him.

Well, I guess I disagree. I see nothing wrong with cheating - not that it was, considering it wasn't against the rules of baseball at the time - and I see nothing wrong with doing performance-enhancing drugs.

People have turned this into a black-and-white issue, and it's not. There are lots of drugs (or medicines) that can be controlled if taken under the control of a doctor. Steroids are readily available in small quantities for asthma suffers and people recoveing from muscle/ligament injury. We've gotten so out of control with this "Steroids are bad!" hysteria that rationality has gone out the window. There is a player in the WBC (who's name I don't remember) that had to stop taking his INHALER because of stringent drug rules. Enough is enough. Let's realize that this is a different age, and that performance-enhancing drugs are a part of sports now. With that realization, maybe we can use them to our advantage and reap the benefits of these drugs rather than banning them outright.

Ok, that's all for me. Please go back to your sinless lifestyle.

daveeym
03-09-2006, 04:53 PM
Well, I guess I disagree. I see nothing wrong with cheating - not that it was, considering it wasn't against the rules of baseball at the time - and I see nothing wrong with doing performance-enhancing drugs.

People have turned this into a black-and-white issue, and it's not. There are lots of drugs (or medicines) that can be controlled if taken under the control of a doctor. Steroids are readily available in small quantities for asthma suffers and people recoveing from muscle/ligament injury. We've gotten so out of control with this "Steroids are bad!" hysteria that rationality has gone out the window. There is a player in the WBC (who's name I don't remember) that had to stop taking his INHALER because of stringent drug rules. Enough is enough. Let's realize that this is a different age, and that performance-enhancing drugs are a part of sports now. With that realization, maybe we can use them to our advantage and reap the benefits of these drugs rather than banning them outright.

Ok, that's all for me. Please go back to your sinless lifestyle.Ok you're ignorant, that's fine. Two completely different types of steroids that do completely different things to the body. Go look up past threads on the issue or do some internet research. You may have a different opinion then.

You're other rationalizations are bull**** though. Steroids without a prescription are ILLEGAL.

MarySwiss
03-09-2006, 04:56 PM
I'll just agree to disagree. You're not going to convince me of any legitmate claim to trashing Barry's entire career. He did enough prior to 1999 to solidify his status as a HOFer.

Schilling quote: "50% of the players are probably using & the other 50% are thinking about it."

http://baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiwalk1.shtml
Barry Bonds #1 2311 Mark McGuire #33 1317

The point? Bonds is near the top in every offensive category imaginable. The other roids boys are not. They aren't in his league. Ignoring what he has accomplished in his career without the dope is as bad as ignoring what he's done with it.

If in 3 yrs if Thome were to retire & Bonds was still able to run & play DH for the White Sox I want him there. The man can flat out hit the baseball.

Excuse me? Are you really arguing that because one (alleged) steroid-enhanced cheater out-cheated the other (alleged) steroid-enhanced cheaters, that means he belongs in the HOF? Well, maybe the steroid-enhanced HOF.

And as for Bonds winding up on the Sox, God forbid!

Ol' No. 2
03-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Well, I guess I disagree. I see nothing wrong with cheating - not that it was, considering it wasn't against the rules of baseball at the time - and I see nothing wrong with doing performance-enhancing drugs.

People have turned this into a black-and-white issue, and it's not. There are lots of drugs (or medicines) that can be controlled if taken under the control of a doctor. Steroids are readily available in small quantities for asthma suffers and people recoveing from muscle/ligament injury. We've gotten so out of control with this "Steroids are bad!" hysteria that rationality has gone out the window. There is a player in the WBC (who's name I don't remember) that had to stop taking his INHALER because of stringent drug rules. Enough is enough. Let's realize that this is a different age, and that performance-enhancing drugs are a part of sports now. With that realization, maybe we can use them to our advantage and reap the benefits of these drugs rather than banning them outright.

Ok, that's all for me. Please go back to your sinless lifestyle.http://www.teresco.org/pics/alaska-20010606-30/jdt/07/P6070035-640.JPG

38,000 screaming fans can't be wrong.

MarySwiss
03-09-2006, 05:03 PM
Ok you're ignorant, that's fine. Two completely different types of steroids that do completely different things to the body. Go look up past threads on the issue or do some internet research. You may have a different opinion then.

You're other rationalizations are bull**** though. Steroids without a prescription are ILLEGAL.

Ignorant doesn't even begin to cut it, Dave. Steroids WITH a prescription are not necessarily a good thing either. I had a relative who was prescribed cortisone for asthma. Did her stomach some serious harm. Steroids are powerful drugs that should not be taken casually.

white sox bill
03-09-2006, 05:06 PM
We can discuss the ethics of using vs not using all day. They DO create an unfair advantage. But the health risks are WAY overblown. Steroid use and abuse are like night and day. Look at linky, go down to 9.02.05 and listen with an open mind




http://www.steroidlaw.com/page.php?pageID=40#26

Nellie_Fox
03-09-2006, 05:15 PM
Ignorant doesn't even begin to cut it, Dave. Steroids WITH a prescription are not necessarily a good thing either. I had a relative who was prescribed cortisone for asthma. Did her stomach some serious harm. Steroids are powerful drugs that should not be taken casually.There's a huge difference between the anti-inflamatory cortico-steroids (or catablolic steroids) and the muscle-building anabolic steroids. Basically, the only real medical use for anabolics is recovering burn victims and cancer patients, to help them get enough muscle mass back to allow them to begin exercise. There is no medical justification for their use in an otherwise healthy human being, and the FDA will come down hard on physicians who prescribe them to athletes.

PaleHoseGeorge
03-09-2006, 05:24 PM
The moral relevance apologists for steroid use fail to understand that baseball becomes a race to the bottom if juicing is permitted. Ballplayers with marginal major league talent <cough>SOSA!<cough> become stars. Ballplayers with star-level talent who don't juice <cough>BIG HURT!<cough> get MVP awards stolen from them by juicers <cough>GIAMBI!<cough> who do juice.

And that brings us to the saddest chapter of all. Hall of Fame talented ballplayers <cough>BARRY!<cough> throw it away and start juicing because their ego is too big to let lesser talents <cough>MCGWIRE/SOSA!<cough> steal the limelight from them. Thus everyone must juice, and they will, the danger to their own health be damned.

And then you have teenagers with shrunken gonads trying to emulate their baseball heroes, but I know you moral relevance apologists wouldn't care about such things so it's hardly worth mentioning. Yeah, everybody breaks the law... and everybody cheats... watch me drive my car on the sidewalk... see, nothing happens...
:o:

What a pathetic bunch you reveal yourselves to be. Baseball can't have juicing because not all of us are so stupid as ever believe there is moral relevance that should allow juicers in baseball. The sport would die without us. Thus your pathetic opinion on the matter is of no consequence.
:cool:

:tool
<gulp>

voodoochile
03-09-2006, 09:18 PM
The moral relevance apologists for steroid use fail to understand that baseball becomes a race to the bottom if juicing is permitted. Ballplayers with marginal major league talent <cough>SOSA!<cough> become stars. Ballplayers with star-level talent who don't juice <cough>BIG HURT!<cough> get MVP awards stolen from them by juicers <cough>GIAMBI!<cough> who do juice.

Guy comes into the restaurant tonight wearing a Sox hat. It turns out he is really a Yankee fan. I never did get the story on why he was wearing our hat, but we got into a brief discussion of the Frank/KW dustup and how Frank is treated by the fans. I gave him a brief rundown on Frank's history of putting his foot in his mouth surrounded by the usual disclaimer that people should take what they read about him with a grain of salt because the Trib owns the flubbies.

Then I mentioned the 2000 MVP race and told him how Frank had been cheated of millions by Giambi juicing (well in speculation because Giambi has only apologized for juicing in the following years and has always denied using in 2000 (yeah, right)). The guy had no idea what it had cost Frank. He did agree that Frank was a clean player. We talked about Barroid briefly, but I had to get back to work and didn't want to continue to intrude on his dinner with his friends. Still, it goes to show how little of this stuff is nationally known. People don't see the costs, they only see the amazing moon shots and (fans) dig the long ball...:rolleyes:

HotelWhiteSox
03-09-2006, 09:29 PM
Fitting how HBO played 61* last night, great movie

RKMeibalane
03-09-2006, 09:31 PM
Guy comes into the restaurant tonight wearing a Sox hat. It turns out he is really a Yankee fan. I never did get the story on why he was wearing our hat, but we got into a brief discussion of the Frank/KW dustup and how Frank is treated by the fans. I gave him a brief rundown on Frank's history of putting his foot in his mouth surrounded by the usual disclaimer that people should take what they read about him with a grain of salt because the Trib owns the flubbies.

Then I mentioned the 2000 MVP race and told him how Frank had been cheated of millions by Giambi juicing (well in speculation because Giambi has only apologized for juicing in the following years and has always denied using in 2000 (yeah, right)). The guy had no idea what it had cost Frank. He did agree that Frank was a clean player. We talked about Barroid briefly, but I had to get back to work and didn't want to continue to intrude on his dinner with his friends. Still, it goes to show how little of this stuff is nationally known. People don't see the costs, they only see the amazing moon shots and (fans) dig the long ball...:rolleyes:

If Frank had won a third MVP award, there's no question he would be a first-ballot HOF'er (he is regardless, but more people would agree with Sox fans), as this would have put him in an elite club. It's really too bad that no action can be taken against Giambi, but I guess that's just the way things work, sometimes.

beckett21
03-09-2006, 09:57 PM
There's a huge difference between the anti-inflamatory cortico-steroids (or catablolic steroids) and the muscle-building anabolic steroids. Basically, the only real medical use for anabolics is recovering burn victims and cancer patients, to help them get enough muscle mass back to allow them to begin exercise. There is no medical justification for their use in an otherwise healthy human being, and the FDA will come down hard on physicians who prescribe them to athletes.
Exactly. Anabolics can be prescribed for people with hormone deficiencies as well, but that's about it. Their everyday use is very limited in scope.

I'm too tired and lazy to go into a dissertation on the subject right now, so I found a previous post comparing anabolic and catabolic steroids here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=620806&postcount=37). I'm sure a quick Google search on these drugs would yield plenty of information for anyone interested in a more thorough explanation.

The everyday *steroids* that people take for asthma, allergies, arthritis, etc. are catabolic. Catabolics like Prednisone can be used short term as well for pain relief associated with tendonitis, bursitis, and similar conditions. Long-term use can lead to osteoporosis, which can lead to fractures. Too many cortisone injections (catabolic, i.e. depo-medrol) to the same area, i.e. a tendon or ligament, will break down the soft tissues and can actually lead to tendon or ligament rupture. Catabolics break down inflammation and reduce the body's inflammatory response. This also makes the user more susceptible to infections because the immune response is depressed.

The crap that Balco Barry and friends are juicing up with are anabolic. Two distinctly different classes of drugs, with totally different mechanisms of action and indications. This is a very important distinction for people to understand. You can't compare an asthma inhaler with an anabolic steroid; it is an invalid comparison.

jehosaphat
03-09-2006, 11:48 PM
Thus everyone must juice, and they will, the danger to their own health be damned.<gulp>

As far as I'm concerned, you have provided the final word. For anyone who still doesn't get it, that's the problem with what Bonds has done. If "performance enhancing drugs" are AOK and Bonds was simply a man ahead of his time as one poster seems to be suggesting, then why not bring on a new support person to the team, namely, "team alchemist". We'll have the trainer, the first base coach, the bench coach, and so on, but the team alchemist will be responsible for cooking up an individualized/personalized juice for each player, and I'm sure the chemicals will only get better and better each year. I can see it now:

Hawk: DJ, the Sox got one of the best alchemists out there old buddy, Dr. Feelgood, you don't get any better than that.

DJ: You said it Hawkeroo - you look around the league, nobody's better. It really is critical in this day and age that you have a quality alchemist on your ballclub. Dr. Candyman in Baltimore killed 6 of his players off last week; sure they were all having monster seasons, but, Baltimore doesn't have anything left for a playoff push. Feelgood takes the long term view, and let give credit where credit is due, Ozzie's willing to be patient

Hawk: Well, there is no doubt in my mind that Joe Crede wouldn't have hit his 83rd homerun of the season back in the second inning without Feelgood's help. Think back a couple years ago..... Joe was that skinny kid, now look at him, physically, he really reminds me a lot of a young Frank Howard when he was in Junior High. I played against that man ... can you imagine Frank on juice today .... why, we'd have to call him Frankenstein, heh, heh, heh.

DJ: Not only that, Hawk, but I have a feeling Joe's going to be around for another couple years before the jaundice gets him.

Hawk: No doubt, no doubt, I give him at least 3, maybe 4, more years. Joe's eyes don't have a trace of yellow. Whoa, watch out, ......... stretch, stretch, ...... there's goes another one ......You can put it on the board...YES!

voodoochile
03-10-2006, 12:23 AM
As far as I'm concerned, you have provided the final word. For anyone who still doesn't get it, that's the problem with what Bonds has done. If "performance enhancing drugs" are AOK and Bonds was simply a man ahead of his time as one poster seems to be suggesting, then why not bring on a new support person to the team, namely, "team alchemist". We'll have the trainer, the first base coach, the bench coach, and so on, but the team alchemist will be responsible for cooking up an individualized/personalized juice for each player, and I'm sure the chemicals will only get better and better each year. I can see it now:

Hawk: DJ, the Sox got one of the best alchemists out there old buddy, Dr. Feelgood, you don't get any better than that.

DJ: You said it Hawkeroo - you look around the league, nobody's better. It really is critical in this day and age that you have a quality alchemist on your ballclub. Dr. Candyman in Baltimore killed 6 of his players off last week; sure they were all having monster seasons, but, Baltimore doesn't have anything left for a playoff push. Feelgood takes the long term view, and let give credit where credit is due, Ozzie's willing to be patient

Hawk: Well, there is no doubt in my mind that Joe Crede wouldn't have hit his 83rd homerun of the season back in the second inning without Feelgood's help. Think back a couple years ago..... Joe was that skinny kid, now look at him, physically, he really reminds me a lot of a young Frank Howard when he was in Junior High. I played against that man ... can you imagine Frank on juice today .... why, we'd have to call him Frankenstein, heh, heh, heh.

DJ: Not only that, Hawk, but I have a feeling Joe's going to be around for another couple years before the jaundice gets him.

Hawk: No doubt, no doubt, I give him at least 3, maybe 4, more years. Joe's eyes don't have a trace of yellow. Whoa, watch out, ......... stretch, stretch, ...... there's goes another one ......You can put it on the board...YES!


It's like reading a King Xerxes gone bad... Chilling stuff.

What the guys promoting steroids as a way to better living are forgetting is that not everyone will use responsibly either. Heck, the quotes imply Bonds couldn't follow the cycles, that his ego and drive pushed him past the limits of "acceptable" use. Why do we suddenly think 15 YO kids are going to be more restrained than a guy who already has HOF talent, genes and credentials. In fact given that they are up against guys like Barroid and his over the top steroid cycles, they will be forced to push themselves even harder to compete and then all of the bad effects of steroids come shining through.

It's one big ugly can of worms and anyone who wants to open it needs to stop and really consider what it means to allow this stuff to go unchecked.

The only solution is to keep the game clean and force the cheaters out. Ridicule, suspensions, banning and denial of legacy awards are just the tip of the iceberg. Find 'em, finger 'em and fry 'em. **** 'em... cheaters suck...

PaulDrake
03-10-2006, 09:18 AM
Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. I would ignore the Sox until he went away, and I mean that. I would too and the Sox mean a whole lot more to me than they probably should.

Ol' No. 2
03-10-2006, 09:46 AM
Exactly. Anabolics can be prescribed for people with hormone deficiencies as well, but that's about it. Their everyday use is very limited in scope.

I'm too tired and lazy to go into a dissertation on the subject right now, so I found a previous post comparing anabolic and catabolic steroids here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=620806&postcount=37). I'm sure a quick Google search on these drugs would yield plenty of information for anyone interested in a more thorough explanation.

The everyday *steroids* that people take for asthma, allergies, arthritis, etc. are catabolic. Catabolics like Prednisone can be used short term as well for pain relief associated with tendonitis, bursitis, and similar conditions. Long-term use can lead to osteoporosis, which can lead to fractures. Too many cortisone injections (catabolic, i.e. depo-medrol) to the same area, i.e. a tendon or ligament, will break down the soft tissues and can actually lead to tendon or ligament rupture. Catabolics break down inflammation and reduce the body's inflammatory response. This also makes the user more susceptible to infections because the immune response is depressed.

The crap that Balco Barry and friends are juicing up with are anabolic. Two distinctly different classes of drugs, with totally different mechanisms of action and indications. This is a very important distinction for people to understand. You can't compare an asthma inhaler with an anabolic steroid; it is an invalid comparison.They're also prescribed for AIDS patients, which is where Anderson was geting his supply before he got hooked up with BALCO.

SoLongFrank
03-10-2006, 01:15 PM
This thread went spiraling off into deep space with the comparison of Bonds to Gacy. :o:

Pandora's Box was opened in the 70's with performance enhancing drugs & it's never going to be closed. It simply has now entered a race stage where those in the doping business have to stay ahead of those in testing.

I'm not apologizing for Bonds. But I can't condone singling him out either. What's done is done. Canseco, Bonds, Palmeiro, McGuire, & yes Sosa have all made it clear to everyone on the planet that MLB has a ML problem.

Because of the individualistic nature of the sport MLB always compares greats of yesteryear to greats of today. It doesn't isolate ages like Football does. It can't begin to do that now.

MLB doesn't have to do anything with respect to Bonds. As long as the Game of Shadows book remains relevant to the times Bonds career will remain tarnished & branded. But MLB does have to do something to insure the integrity of the game going forward. It can't relive this nightmare year after year. It seems every year an MVP is being branded as a doper. It might not impact the gate but it impacts everything else. That has to stop.
The MLBPA has to be made to understand this.

white sox bill
03-10-2006, 01:19 PM
The media loves when things like this happen.....everyone has thier own little soapbox.....of course, the other guys always wrong LOL! If anyone here gets a call from Brother BS (Mr Selig)asking our opinoin, let the rest of us know. What Barry does is of little concern to me. He has never or will never make or break my day..:smile:

samram
03-10-2006, 01:29 PM
I'm not apologizing for Bonds. But I can't condone singling him out either. What's done is done.

You're the one singling him out, saying you can't ignore his greatness prior to 1998. You're the one talking about this "85% of his numbers should be retained" ****. Most of us want all of these guys to get their comeuppance. Bonds just happens to be the hot subtopic in this giant cesspool right now.

Ol' No. 2
03-10-2006, 01:54 PM
This thread went spiraling off into deep space with the comparison of Bonds to Gacy. :o:

Pandora's Box was opened in the 70's with performance enhancing drugs & it's never going to be closed. It simply has now entered a race stage where those in the doping business have to stay ahead of those in testing.

I'm not apologizing for Bonds. But I can't condone singling him out either. What's done is done. Canseco, Bonds, Palmeiro, McGuire, & yes Sosa have all made it clear to everyone on the planet that MLB has a ML problem.

Because of the individualistic nature of the sport MLB always compares greats of yesteryear to greats of today. It doesn't isolate ages like Football does. It can't begin to do that now.

MLB doesn't have to do anything with respect to Bonds. As long as the Game of Shadows book remains relevant to the times Bonds career will remain tarnished & branded. But MLB does have to do something to insure the integrity of the game going forward. It can't relive this nightmare year after year. It seems every year an MVP is being branded as a doper. It might not impact the gate but it impacts everything else. That has to stop.
The MLBPA has to be made to understand this.Rubbish. The problem has reached the point it has because MLB has been content for far too long to do nothing. They still do virtually nothing. You suggest they should continue. To do nothing is to condone it.

The record books occupy a place in baseball unlike any other sport. It's the backbone that connects across generations. There have been lots of minor breaches over the years, but what's been done in the last 20 years or so constitutes such an egregious assault as to demand remedy.

Baseball has been wounded. Covering up a wound without cleaning it invites festering. Nothing cleanses like the truth. The sooner the better.

SoxEd
03-10-2006, 01:59 PM
For anyone who regards Bonds as 'a misunderstood hero', I ask you this:

If he's such a 'great guy', how come this (http://sport.independent.co.uk/general/article350301.ece) article can appear in the British Press about him? (NB it will only be avilable for free for today and tomorrow. Remember also that GMT is 6 hours ahead of Central time.).

I mean, it's hardly like Baseball has a massive following over here, so the 'controversial' approach is hardly likely to persude anyone here to buy the paper, just because of a non-advertised small article buried on the inside pages of the Sports section.

Please also note that our Libel Laws are rather strict, and very often enforced against Newspapers, so they all NEED to tread VERY carefully around them.

Drug cheaters are, IMO, the lowest of the low.

Red Barchetta
03-10-2006, 02:02 PM
Rubbish. The problem has reached the point it has because MLB has been content for far too long to do nothing. They still do virtually nothing. You suggest they should continue. To do nothing is to condone it.

The record books occupy a place in baseball unlike any other sport. It's the backbone that connects across generations. There have been lots of minor breaches over the years, but what's been done in the last 20 years or so constitutes such an egregious assault as to demand remedy.

Baseball has been wounded. Covering up a wound without cleaning it invites festering. Nothing cleanses like the truth. The sooner the better.

Agreed. It all comes down to character, or lack thereof. McWire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Bonds. They lead the charge. I'm sure there were many more, including pitchers, however these were the faces of the steroid era. McWire and Palmeiro are gone, Sosa is almost gone and I can't wait until Bonds is gone. Too bad, because he was (is) a HOF player who might still have reached his goals without the juice. He had just as beautiful swing when he was leaner.

Regardless, it took Aaron close to 700 more games to catch Ruth and Bonds will need almost as many. Just another measuring stick.

SoLongFrank
03-10-2006, 02:19 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick10.html - Good article by Telander today.

They never viewed it as a major problem. That's the difference. Bonds owns the single season HR record & is now threatening career HR records. When I say they it's both the owners & the players association. The idea that Bonds coherts could be so sloppy as to leave such an extensive trail & yet so intelligent as to fool the owners, the commissioner's office, coaches, trainers, managers & all the people connected to the game is insulting.

Simply put MLB created Bonds. It's their problem. One the player's union had no intention of bothering with until Congress threatened to write the rules of MLB play. Blaming a handful of players does not address the problem.

Pitcher's will never be suspect because they will never again achieve a level of performance that threatens the record books. They will never produce a single season that calls attention. Even if some fail a test or are ever named they won't get a fraction of the press the slugger's get.

Ol' No. 2
03-10-2006, 02:52 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/telander/cst-spt-rick10.html - Good article by Telander today.

They never viewed it as a major problem. That's the difference. Bonds owns the single season HR record & is now threatening career HR records. When I say they it's both the owners & the players association. The idea that Bonds coherts could be so sloppy as to leave such an extensive trail & yet so intelligent as to fool the owners, the commissioner's office, coaches, trainers, managers & all the people connected to the game is insulting.

Simply put MLB created Bonds. It's their problem. One the player's union had no intention of bothering with until Congress threatened to write the rules of MLB play. Blaming a handful of players does not address the problem.

Pitcher's will never be suspect because they will never again achieve a level of performance that threatens the record books. They will never produce a single season that calls attention. Even if some fail a test or are ever named they won't get a fraction of the press the slugger's get.This continuous apologizing for Barry Bonds is making you look like a jackass. First it was McGwire and Sosa's fault. Now it's MLB's fault. Poor Barry.:whiner::whiner:

http://www.moralminority.org/graphics/mm/steamingpi-1.gif

PaleHoseGeorge
03-10-2006, 03:00 PM
They never viewed it as a major problem. That's the difference. Bonds owns the single season HR record & is now threatening career HR records. When I say they it's both the owners & the players association. The idea that Bonds coherts could be so sloppy as to leave such an extensive trail & yet so intelligent as to fool the owners, the commissioner's office, coaches, trainers, managers & all the people connected to the game is insulting.

Simply put MLB created Bonds. It's their problem. One the player's union had no intention of bothering with until Congress threatened to write the rules of MLB play. Blaming a handful of players does not address the problem.

Pitcher's will never be suspect because they will never again achieve a level of performance that threatens the record books. They will never produce a single season that calls attention. Even if some fail a test or are ever named they won't get a fraction of the press the slugger's get.
I can't believe you managed to string together three whole paragraphs of this nonsense and never once used the V-word.

Come on, SLF. We know what you're driving at. At least show us you have the balls to say it.

"Barry Bonds is a _ictim."

Go ahead. Say it. I dare you.
:cool:

SoLongFrank
03-10-2006, 04:59 PM
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/14053997.htm I couldn't have said it better myself.

I am not apologizing for Bonds & I will certainly not call him a victim. McGuire, Sosa, & Bonds all knew what they were doing & became addicted at some point to doing it.

So stop saying I'm apologizing for him. I'm not!

All I'm saying is that he clearly was not alone & MLB & the MLBPA had an attitude of see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, & speak-no-evil when it was happening.

Not one report has ever surfaced suggesting he doped prior to the 1999 season. He accomplished enough through 1998 to warrant first ballot HOF status.

But I will agree with most of you that none of that matters now. When Barry passes Ruth & if Barry passes Aaron for most fans there will be no sense of joy or awe. People will not be celebrating.

Simply put, Barry has doomed himself to be immortally hated in the game of MLB. When people look at his name in the record books they will look at it with disdain. Some columnists think that if public sentiment changes on the issue of doping Barry will be vindicated. I thought about that after reading more. I don't think that's the case with Barry. If he had come out like Canseco & advocated that 1) he did it, 2) he thinks it's ok for professional athletes he might have a chance. Barry did the opposite. He's repeatedly denied knowingly doing it. That brands him as a liar without remorse. That won't change over time. That will linger long past his death.

daveeym
03-10-2006, 05:34 PM
I can't believe you managed to string together three whole paragraphs of this nonsense and never once used the V-word.

Come on, SLF. We know what you're driving at. At least show us you have the balls to say it.

"Barry Bonds is a _ictim."

Go ahead. Say it. I dare you.
:cool:I'm surprised no one has used the M word to describe SLF yet.

Ol' No. 2
03-10-2006, 07:40 PM
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/14053997.htm I couldn't have said it better myself.

I am not apologizing for Bonds & I will certainly not call him a victim. McGuire, Sosa, & Bonds all knew what they were doing & became addicted at some point to doing it.

So stop saying I'm apologizing for him. I'm not!

All I'm saying is that he clearly was not alone & MLB & the MLBPA had an attitude of see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, & speak-no-evil when it was happening.

Not one report has ever surfaced suggesting he doped prior to the 1999 season. He accomplished enough through 1998 to warrant first ballot HOF status.And he forfeited that status by his actions afterward. Or maybe we should allow seniors who've been good students to cheat? Maybe Ben Johnson should get his gold medal after all? The fact that others were not blameless in this whole mess doesn't change a thing. Barry Bonds chose his course of action all by himself. Now he has to pay the price.

http://www.moralminority.org/graphics/mm/steamingpi-1.gif

RadioheadRocks
03-10-2006, 07:43 PM
In my head I can picture a scene, not unlike the highly-cinematized scene of the little boy going up to Shoeless Joe...

Kid: "Say it ain't so, Barry! Say it ain't so!"

Barry: "Get the **** out of my face, kid. Stop trying to destroy me. You jealous? You angry? You don't know me. You don't know what I'm doing, what I'm about. Who are you kid? What have you got but something someone said. I know the truth, I know my truth, and my truth is the truth, so what are you gonna do? Ooh, Barry said this. Ooh, what's Barry gonna do next? What's Barry gonna say next? There's real problems in this country. Where's that? Where's that truth? What are you gonna do about it, kid? This interview is over!"

You forgot the part where after the kid gives him a stunned look, Barry adds, "Did I ****ing stutter???!!!"

SluggersAway
03-10-2006, 08:26 PM
The only solution is to keep the game clean and force the cheaters out. Ridicule, suspensions, banning and denial of legacy awards are just the tip of the iceberg. Find 'em, finger 'em and fry 'em. **** 'em... cheaters suck...

The problem is this will never happen as the chemists are always one/two/three... steps ahead of the authorities and thus your solution is really no solution at all.

One first step though would be for Selig to make an example of Bonds, but after turning a blind eye for so long for profit considerations the heat in the kitchen will have to be turned to high for anything to get done.

RKMeibalane
03-10-2006, 09:01 PM
The problem is this will never happen as the chemists are always one/two/three... steps ahead of the authorities and thus your solution is really no solution at all.

One first step though would be for Selig to make an example of Bonds, but after turning a blind eye for so long for profit considerations the heat in the kitchen will have to be turned to high for anything to get done.

Agreed. Selig is too much of a coward to do anything about this. He spent three years trying to push the steroid controversy "under the rug" until Congress threatened him. Who knows what else he's trying to hide from us.

Ol' No. 2
03-10-2006, 10:23 PM
The problem is this will never happen as the chemists are always one/two/three... steps ahead of the authorities and thus your solution is really no solution at all.People will always violate the speed limit, so let people drive as fast as they want. Kids will always find ways to get booze, so let them have however much they want. What good are limits when people don't always follow them?

Hendu
03-10-2006, 11:59 PM
Hawk: DJ, the Sox got one of the best alchemists out there old buddy, Dr. Feelgood, you don't get any better than that.

DJ: You said it Hawkeroo - you look around the league, nobody's better. It really is critical in this day and age that you have a quality alchemist on your ballclub. Dr. Candyman in Baltimore killed 6 of his players off last week; sure they were all having monster seasons, but, Baltimore doesn't have anything left for a playoff push. Feelgood takes the long term view, and let give credit where credit is due, Ozzie's willing to be patient

Hawk: Well, there is no doubt in my mind that Joe Crede wouldn't have hit his 83rd homerun of the season back in the second inning without Feelgood's help. Think back a couple years ago..... Joe was that skinny kid, now look at him, physically, he really reminds me a lot of a young Frank Howard when he was in Junior High. I played against that man ... can you imagine Frank on juice today .... why, we'd have to call him Frankenstein, heh, heh, heh.

DJ: Not only that, Hawk, but I have a feeling Joe's going to be around for another couple years before the jaundice gets him.

Hawk: No doubt, no doubt, I give him at least 3, maybe 4, more years. Joe's eyes don't have a trace of yellow. Whoa, watch out, ......... stretch, stretch, ...... there's goes another one ......You can put it on the board...YES!
:roflmao: That's some creative stuff, man.

Beer Can Chicken
03-11-2006, 12:04 AM
The FBI wont go after him. The IRS wont go after him. The sportwriters of America will. Some San Fran reporters will. You do the math. It sounds like an agenda to me. In the 50's they called it McCarthyism. Everyone had HARD evidence that communism was rampant in the good olde USA. If Bonds is as guilty as everyone claims, the governement WOULD be going after him.

Dont get me wrong, there is obvious concern about Bonds' size increase. But on the same hand, there is no HARD evidence against him. Just because some joker tells you the BALCO investigation is REAL, donest make it so. I hope everyone is smarter than that.

Hendu
03-11-2006, 12:10 AM
The FBI wont go after him. The IRS wont go after him. The sportwriters of America will. Some San Fran reporters will. You do the math. It sounds like an agenda to me. In the 50's they called it McCarthyism. Everyone had HARD evidence that communism was rampant in the good olde USA. If Bonds is as guilty as everyone claims, the governement WOULD be going after him.
Who says the FBI, IRS, etc aren't going to go after him. This stuff is not going to magically go away.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-11-2006, 12:35 AM
The FBI wont go after him. The IRS wont go after him. The sportwriters of America will. Some San Fran reporters will. You do the math. It sounds like an agenda to me. In the 50's they called it McCarthyism. Everyone had HARD evidence that communism was rampant in the good olde USA. If Bonds is as guilty as everyone claims, the governement WOULD be going after him.

Dont get me wrong, there is obvious concern about Bonds' size increase. But on the same hand, there is no HARD evidence against him. Just because some joker tells you the BALCO investigation is REAL, donest make it so. I hope everyone is smarter than that.

And just because George Clooney tells you Communist agents were not in the highest levels of American Government doesn't make it so.

The IRS likes to take its time - unpaid tax and penalties accrue interest at higher than market rates. Outside of perjury, I don't see him being convicted for anything else regarding BALCO (which I doubt they will).

If Bud goes after him it will be a legal battle but he will have to get an injunction to be allowed to play - Bud has time on his side and could literally drag this out until Bonds is too old to play / too long out of the game.

kevin57
03-11-2006, 06:43 AM
The IRS likes to take its time - unpaid tax and penalties accrue interest at higher than market rates. Outside of perjury, I don't see him being convicted for anything else regarding BALCO (which I doubt they will).

Also, from what I understand his immunity grant from the Gov. for BALCO testimony shields him from prosecution except from perjury.

downstairs
03-11-2006, 08:26 AM
The FBI wont go after him. The IRS wont go after him. The sportwriters of America will. Some San Fran reporters will. You do the math. It sounds like an agenda to me. In the 50's they called it McCarthyism. Everyone had HARD evidence that communism was rampant in the good olde USA. If Bonds is as guilty as everyone claims, the governement WOULD be going after him.

Dont get me wrong, there is obvious concern about Bonds' size increase. But on the same hand, there is no HARD evidence against him. Just because some joker tells you the BALCO investigation is REAL, donest make it so. I hope everyone is smarter than that.

How about COURT TESTIMONY?!?!? Isn't that hard enough evidence for you? You know, him actually admitting it? And the people around him admitting they gave it to him? What more do you want? A videotape? Him to inject himself live on national TV?!?!

Oh, and by the way... "hard" evidence (whatever the heck that means, ask an FBI agent and I bet they couldn't tell you either) is not necessary for anything. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly acceptable in all courts of law. Just because Nancy Grace may say it isn't doesn't mean it isn't.

People are convicted of murder all the time on 100% circumstantial evidence

samram
03-11-2006, 08:39 AM
How about COURT TESTIMONY?!?!? Isn't that hard enough evidence for you? You know, him actually admitting it? And the people around him admitting they gave it to him? What more do you want? A videotape? Him to inject himself live on national TV?!?!

Oh, and by the way... "hard" evidence (whatever the heck that means, ask an FBI agent and I bet they couldn't tell you either) is not necessary for anything. Circumstantial evidence is perfectly acceptable in all courts of law. Just because Nancy Grace may say it isn't doesn't mean it isn't.

People are convicted of murder all the time on 100% circumstantial evidence

Good post.

Also, Major League Baseball DOES NOT NEED the same evidence as a court needs to punish steroid users. Why can't people get that through their heads?

Ol' No. 2
03-11-2006, 10:07 AM
Also, from what I understand his immunity grant from the Gov. for BALCO testimony shields him from prosecution except from perjury.Not quite. Any statements he made during the grand jury hearings can't be used against him, but he can still be prosecuted using evidence gathered elsewhere, and they've got plenty of that. The IRS is going to nail him hard. If you recall, Pete Rose did a stint at Marion for not reporting income from memorabilia shows.

SoLongFrank
03-11-2006, 11:20 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/11/SPGETHML7Q1.DTL
The article hits the nail right on the head. He's damned.

Option 1: McGwire route - refuse to talk about it. Guilty in every corner of the nation but stays out of jail.
Option 2: Steadfastly denies any wrongdoing - further subjects himself to perjury charges.
Option 3: Admits to knowingly use - convicted of perjury.

IRS case: Bonds failed to report income on memorabilia. Not uncommon amongst pro's. They usually settle out of court.

Criminal case: There is nothing in Game of Shadows that the FBI doesn't already have in it's docket. If there was anything substantial to build a case on it would have happened. A book can write heresay but a court room weighs perjury charges & contempt against you.

IMO, both MLB & the Fed are looking for a solution to where Barry becomes a major spokesperson against doping in exchange for immunity. He can't do that without a public admittance of guilt.

Ol' No. 2
03-11-2006, 11:40 AM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/11/SPGETHML7Q1.DTL
The article hits the nail right on the head. He's damned.

Option 1: McGwire route - refuse to talk about it. Guilty in every corner of the nation but stays out of jail.
Option 2: Steadfastly denies any wrongdoing - further subjects himself to perjury charges.
Option 3: Admits to knowingly use - convicted of perjury.

IRS case: Bonds failed to report income on memorabilia. Not uncommon amongst pro's. They usually settle out of court.

Criminal case: There is nothing in Game of Shadows that the FBI doesn't already have in it's docket. If there was anything substantial to build a case on it would have happened. A book can write heresay but a court room weighs perjury charges & contempt against you.

IMO, both MLB & the Fed are looking for a solution to where Barry becomes a major spokesperson against doping in exchange for immunity. He can't do that without a public admittance of guilt.http://crankygreg.blogs.com/crank_gregs_view/Rose.jpg Say WHAT?

SoLongFrank
03-11-2006, 11:48 AM
Good post.

Also, Major League Baseball DOES NOT NEED the same evidence as a court needs to punish steroid users. Why can't people get that through their heads?
If the MLBPA existed at the time of the Black Sox scandal Landis could not have made that ruling. Free agency changed everything.

Selig can not step beyond the existing CBA to punish Bonds without MLBPA approval. He can use the threat of Congressional supervision over the matter to get the MLBPA to yield. That's the best he can do.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/ozwash/jul99/sign11071099a.asp
cornerback Tyrone Williams, had paid a civil penalty to the IRS for failing to report income earned from autograph sales.

Ol' No. 2
03-11-2006, 12:03 PM
If the MLBPA existed at the time of the Black Sox scandal Landis could not have made that ruling. Free agency changed everything.

Selig can not step beyond the existing CBA to punish Bonds without MLBPA approval. He can use the threat of Congressional supervision over the matter to get the MLBPA to yield. That's the best he can do.
Rubbish. The MLBPA has NO CONTROL over the official record books. The commissioner could simply declare that his HR record doesn't count and wipe it off the books and the MLBPA could do nothing about it. Ditto for HOF eligibility. With no prospect of breaking Ruth's or Aaron's HR record, Bonds would immediately quit.

Just try to tell Pete Rose that nobody goes to jail for tax evasion.

Daver
03-11-2006, 12:26 PM
If the MLBPA existed at the time of the Black Sox scandal Landis could not have made that ruling. Free agency changed everything.

Selig can not step beyond the existing CBA to punish Bonds without MLBPA approval. He can use the threat of Congressional supervision over the matter to get the MLBPA to yield. That's the best he can do.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/ozwash/jul99/sign11071099a.asp
cornerback Tyrone Williams, had paid a civil penalty to the IRS for failing to report income earned from autograph sales.

Selig at any time, and for any reason, decree his actions to be for the good of the game, and do whatever he damn well pleases.


What erroneous fact do you want to bring up next?

SoLongFrank
03-11-2006, 12:37 PM
There is no way Selig can wipe Barry Bonds numbers from the record books without a dominoe effect throughout baseball including having to change the outcome of games. This has been discussed in countless articles so feel free to check them out yourself. That's never going to happen.

Asterisk's or foot notes are the most likely choice when questioning a player's numbers.

Rose & Bonds cases are completely different. Bonds paid his taxes on time. He simply failed to report income from memorabilia. There are specific rules governing penalties & interest accrued on them for such an infraction. People fail to report small levels of income all the time. It's one of the IRS' best ways of earning income. The IRS usually points out the mistake, assesses what the person owes, & sends out the notice to pay. The person can pay or contest. There is a taxpayer's rights system in place. As long as Bonds pays what he owes he won't go to jail for this.

Daver: Selig at any time, and for any reason, decree his actions to be for the good of the game, and do whatever he damn well pleases.

That's erroneous. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2634 Selig is governed by the CBA.
If Selig attempts to invoke his "best-interest" power over the CBA an arbitrator can rule against him. Arbitrator Shyam Das has stated he would do just that on any substance abuse or drug testing issue.

kevin57
03-11-2006, 01:23 PM
For those--admittedly at this point, the "few"--who still doubt Bonds' guilt, will you wager that Bonds sues for libel, slander, defamation of character, etc....?

Somehow, just somehow, I don't think he'll do that. If accusations in this book were not true, Bonds would have a field day in court. Maybe it's that he would not want to have to testify under oath about some of this "circumstantial" stuff.

voodoochile
03-11-2006, 01:33 PM
For those--admittedly at this point, the "few"--who still doubt Bonds' guilt, will you wager that Bonds sues for libel, slander, defamation of character, etc....?

Somehow, just somehow, I don't think he'll do that. If accusations in this book were not true, Bonds would have a field day in court. Maybe it's that he would not want to have to testify under oath about some of this "circumstantial" stuff.
It would take about 10 seconds for the judge to rule he has perjured himself when he took the stand and there is NO WAY he gets to sue without taking the stand.

BTW, anyone else find it ironic how big Bonds' head is in relation to the other players in the TB graphic at the top of the page? That can have a whole mess of meanings and personally, I think they all fit.

Ol' No. 2
03-11-2006, 02:17 PM
There is no way Selig can wipe Barry Bonds numbers from the record books without a dominoe effect throughout baseball including having to change the outcome of games. This has been discussed in countless articles so feel free to check them out yourself. That's never going to happen.

Asterisk's or foot notes are the most likely choice when questioning a player's numbers.

Rose & Bonds cases are completely different. Bonds paid his taxes on time. He simply failed to report income from memorabilia. There are specific rules governing penalties & interest accrued on them for such an infraction. People fail to report small levels of income all the time. It's one of the IRS' best ways of earning income. The IRS usually points out the mistake, assesses what the person owes, & sends out the notice to pay. The person can pay or contest. There is a taxpayer's rights system in place. As long as Bonds pays what he owes he won't go to jail for this.

Daver: Selig at any time, and for any reason, decree his actions to be for the good of the game, and do whatever he damn well pleases.

That's erroneous. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2634 Selig is governed by the CBA.
If Selig attempts to invoke his "best-interest" power over the CBA an arbitrator can rule against him. Arbitrator Shyam Das has stated he would do just that on any substance abuse or drug testing issue.It would help if you actually had a clue what you were talking about. Pete Rose went to jail for doing EXACTLY what Barry Bonds has done. He got paid in cash for appearances at memorabilia shows and didn't report it.

And just because you can invent consequences doesn't make them real. There's not a thing in the world stopping Selig from simply deleting Bonds' records from the books (other than the fact Selig is gutless snake). There's no reason in the world the outcome of games would have to be changed. The CBA has nothing to do with the record books.

RKMeibalane
03-11-2006, 02:20 PM
It would help if you actually had a clue what you were talking about. Pete Rose went to jail for doing EXACTLY what Barry Bonds has done. He got paid in cash for appearances at memorabilia shows and didn't report it.

And just because you can invent consequences doesn't make them real. There's not a thing in the world stopping Selig from simply deleting Bonds' records from the books (other than the fact Selig is gutless snake). There's no reason in the world the outcome of games would have to be changed.

Exactly. The NCAA does things like this all the time. It happened just yesterday with Ohio State having their Final Four appearance wiped from the books. Bonds may be able to get away with pushing Selig around, but he can't fight everybody. Sooner or later, someone is going to put him in his place by taking his records away from him. It may not happen this year, or even in this decade, but Bonds is going pay for all of this. Somebody out there has the courage to stand up to him.

SoLongFrank
03-11-2006, 02:58 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Rose
Rose pleaded guilty to two charges of filing false income tax returns not showing PRIMARY income received from autographs, memorabilia, & horse racing. These were not small amounts (less than 10% of his reported income). They amounted to payments of $366,041 in back taxes & interest. He failed to report what amounted as his primary source of income at the time.
In Barry's case the memorabilia amounts to probably less than 1% of his reported income. We are talking about an $18 mil/yr guy here.

As for removing records I don't think you will find one stat guru or columist stating it can be done. The articles I've read said to do so will create a dominoe effect throughout the league for every year the player played & could require having to change the outcome's of games. They will never do that. It's not practical. Believe what you want. Selig weighed in on this last year: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-15-steroids-mlb-cover_x.htm "No one has been convicted of anything. And we can't turn history back."

As for attaching footnotes or asterisks Fehr will contest that. An arbitor will rule whether the greivance relates to the CBA & if so likely in favor of the greivance. That's the way best-interest of baseball works today as it has already been tested in the mid 1980's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds

Daver
03-11-2006, 03:47 PM
Wikipedia is not proof of anything, anyone can edit those entries.

CLR01
03-11-2006, 04:18 PM
un****ingreal

Ol' No. 2
03-11-2006, 07:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Rose
Rose pleaded guilty to two charges of filing false income tax returns not showing PRIMARY income received from autographs, memorabilia, & horse racing. These were not small amounts (less than 10% of his reported income). They amounted to payments of $366,041 in back taxes & interest. He failed to report what amounted as his primary source of income at the time.
In Barry's case the memorabilia amounts to probably less than 1% of his reported income. We are talking about an $18 mil/yr guy here.

As for removing records I don't think you will find one stat guru or columist stating it can be done. The articles I've read said to do so will create a dominoe effect throughout the league for every year the player played & could require having to change the outcome's of games. They will never do that. It's not practical. Believe what you want. Selig weighed in on this last year: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-15-steroids-mlb-cover_x.htm "No one has been convicted of anything. And we can't turn history back."

As for attaching footnotes or asterisks Fehr will contest that. An arbitor will rule whether the greivance relates to the CBA & if so likely in favor of the greivance. That's the way best-interest of baseball works today as it has already been tested in the mid 1980's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_BondsThis has become completely pointless. Kiss Barry's ass all you want.

RKMeibalane
03-11-2006, 08:38 PM
This has become completely pointless. Kiss Barry's ass all you want.

It's too bad that Bonds' first name isn't Paul, because then we could bring back the aPaulogist nickname for SLF. He's off the deep end.

jehosaphat
03-11-2006, 10:54 PM
As for removing records I don't think you will find one stat guru or columist stating it can be done. The articles I've read said to do so will create a dominoe effect throughout the league for every year the player played & could require having to change the outcome's of games. They will never do that. It's not practical. Believe what you want. Selig weighed in on this last year: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-03-15-steroids-mlb-cover_x.htm "No one has been convicted of anything. And we can't turn history back."

As for attaching footnotes or asterisks Fehr will contest that. An arbitor will rule whether the greivance relates to the CBA & if so likely in favor of the greivance. That's the way best-interest of baseball works today as it has already been tested in the mid 1980's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds

Let's say you are correct in that Selig is essentially powerless. That is, he can't take Bonds' "records" out of the record book, etc. If so, I would argue that Selig should still try to do it. If the system is so screwed up and the commissioner's office is so weak that Selig's actions would be overturned by the player's association, the courts, or whomever, then Selig truly has nothing to lose by doing the right thing. For the good of the game, Selig should suspend Bonds immediately, erase Bond's single season HR record from the official record book, and by edict remove Bonds from consideration for the HOF.

Quoting Bob Dylan "If you ain't got nothing, then you got nothing to lose." Selig may as well make a statement. He may as well stand for something. He may as well fight the good fight. He certainly can no longer go along and bury his head in the sand. Well, actually he can.

Ol' No. 2
03-12-2006, 01:03 AM
Let's say you are correct in that Selig is essentially powerless. That is, he can't take Bonds' "records" out of the record book, etc. If so, I would argue that Selig should still try to do it. If the system is so screwed up and the commissioner's office is so weak that Selig's actions would be overturned by the player's association, the courts, or whomever, then Selig truly has nothing to lose by doing the right thing. For the good of the game, Selig should suspend Bonds immediately, erase Bond's single season HR record from the official record book, and by edict remove Bonds from consideration for the HOF.

Quoting Bob Dylan "If you ain't got nothing, then you got nothing to lose." Selig may as well make a statement. He may as well stand for something. He may as well fight the good fight. He certainly can no longer go along and bury his head in the sand. Well, actually he can.Selig??? Bud Selig???? Mr. "I never heard of steroids until 2002"???? Mr. "Only 2% of the players tested positive (after we helpfully gave them a list of substances to avoid)"??? THAT Bud Selig???

That's why Selig has to go. He's too much a part of the problem to ever be a part of the solution.

Nellie_Fox
03-12-2006, 01:16 AM
Also, from what I understand his immunity grant from the Gov. for BALCO testimony shields him from prosecution except from perjury.Besides, since he denied everything, there is nothing in his testimony for which he needs to be granted immunity. He could still be prosecuted for the steroid trafficking since he didn't testify about it.

All immunity means is that they won't use your testimony against you; since he didn't testify to anything, well....

By the way, you need to know that federal investigations move at the speed of glaciers. I was aware, through friends in federal law enforcement, that George Ryan was in deep crap back when I was still a cop. His trial is just now going on. I retired from the police force eight years ago.

SouthSide_HitMen
03-12-2006, 01:55 AM
Also, from what I understand his immunity grant from the Gov. for BALCO testimony shields him from prosecution except from perjury.

His IRS issues are for undeclared income from various shows he appeared at (fat chance that will ever happen again).

He was paid $9,900 to be just under the automatic notice a business has to send to the IRS for a $10,000 cash transaction.

Bonds broke so many laws the past several years, it is hard to keep track without a scorecard.

TornLabrum
03-12-2006, 07:10 AM
Besides, since he denied everything, there is nothing in his testimony for which he needs to be granted immunity. He could still be prosecuted for the steroid trafficking since he didn't testify about it.

All immunity means is that they won't use your testimony against you; since he didn't testify to anything, well....

By the way, you need to know that federal investigations move at the speed of glaciers. I was aware, through friends in federal law enforcement, that George Ryan was in deep crap back when I was still a cop. His trial is just now going on. I retired from the police force eight years ago.

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems logical to me that if I'm the U.S. District Attorney, and I grant someone immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony, which is sworn to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," and the guy perjures himself, the immunity grant is null and void.

SoLongFrank
03-12-2006, 01:27 PM
http://blogs.suntimes.com/fullcourtpress/2006/03/put_an_asterisk_next_to_all_th.html
Some interesting viewpoints I never really thought about in by-gone era's.

Likewise Boone, I-Rod, & the aging pitchers. I remember reading how much Fisk had to work out like a demon to stay in the game as long as he did. They say most players don't have that drive or that tolerance. Maybe these aging wonders are more chemically induced than the product of Fisk like work.

I think I'd rather just enjoy the fantasy of the game and not be crushed by it's reality. If something were to come out on Roger Clemens or The Big Unit I'd rather not know about it.

At least I can feel some level of comfort knowing that if there was anything remotely reasonable to suggest about Frank's playing days at Auburn it would have surfaced by now. My mind tells me injuries & age have made him a little more pudgier. I hate it when a reporter in Chicago suggests otherwise when they know very well such a story is worth too much to hide. There's nothing to hide. Frank is clean. A tight-end playing the game of MLB. That's how I'll always see him.

When I saw Boone's name mentioned in this I thought about the ridiculous salaries these jerks commanded. I think that's why I'll always defend Frank's bitching. He knew/suspected guys were doping. He watched the contracts they signed. That's got to make him angry to no end. Especially if he got word from anybody out of Oakland that Giambi was using. I know I'd be angry.

samram
03-12-2006, 01:37 PM
I think I'd rather just enjoy the fantasy of the game and not be crushed by it's reality. If something were to come out on Roger Clemens or The Big Unit I'd rather not know about it.


It sounds like you're applying for a job with MLB.

:tool
"We have an opening in our bull**** department. I think you'd be a great fit."

SoLongFrank
03-12-2006, 03:08 PM
No BS. I'm just being honest. There's an air of excitment when either The Big Unit or The Rocket are on the mound & news like this would wreck that for me. I have no need to know.

voodoochile
03-13-2006, 12:08 AM
No BS. I'm just being honest. There's an air of excitment when either The Big Unit or The Rocket are on the mound & news like this would wreck that for me. I have no need to know.

Translation: I really don't care who uses enhancements. I would rather see steroid enhanced freaks throw smoke and crush pitches deep into the night and be forever ignorant of the fact that what they are doing is an injustice to the sport and the people who played before. I just want to be entertained and drugged up players are WAY more entertaining than straight ones, so load up the syringe and lets start injecting them all...:?:

Nellie_Fox
03-13-2006, 01:39 AM
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems logical to me that if I'm the U.S. District Attorney, and I grant someone immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony, which is sworn to be "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," and the guy perjures himself, the immunity grant is null and void.Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. All I was trying (awkwardly) to say is that Bonds has immunity from nothing. Since he didn't admit to anything while he had immunity, they can still prosecute him for anything from perjury to trafficking. The immunity would only apply to crimes he admitted while being questioned. He didn't admit to anything, so no immunity.

SoLongFrank
03-13-2006, 12:47 PM
I have no need to know. If some media person or polling group asked my opinion on doping & steroids I would answer stating it's bad for baseball & should be banned.

But personally I have no need to know who is currently doping. That knowledge doesn't benefit me $1. I will enjoy the game better without that knowledge.

I think most fans feel the same way. If you taint all the heroes of the game it weakens the joy experienced from it. Better to weaken them after they leave the game.

As for immunity you can look it up. It means you make a deal with the prosecution that bars them from prosecuting you on the basis of anything you say under oath. Such agreements are not void on alledged perjury & it makes no sense why any lawyer would allow his client's testimony to be used against him for such a case once immunity is granted.

Baby Fisk
03-13-2006, 12:58 PM
I have no need to know. If some media person or polling group asked my opinion on doping & steroids I would answer stating it's bad for baseball & should be banned.

But personally I have no need to know who is currently doping. That knowledge doesn't benefit me $1. I will enjoy the game better without that knowledge.

Then why do you keep posting wikified mini-essays defending Bonds, if knowledge of his unrepentant doping hampers your enjoyment of the game?

Oh good god I've been sucked into this black vortex. LEMME OUT! GET ME OUT OF THIS HOLE! :o:

jehosaphat
03-13-2006, 02:15 PM
I have no need to know. If some media person or polling group asked my opinion on doping & steroids I would answer stating it's bad for baseball & should be banned.

But personally I have no need to know who is currently doping. That knowledge doesn't benefit me $1. I will enjoy the game better without that knowledge.

I think most fans feel the same way. If you taint all the heroes of the game it weakens the joy experienced from it. Better to weaken them after they leave the game. .

I disagree with your assessment of the preferences of "most fans". I think you are way wrong on what most fans want to know. Most fans want the truth. Sometimes truth can be uncomfortable and painful, but it is better than believing a lie. For most people, if a friend/spouse/family member/etc. has betrayed them or or cheated them in some way, they would rather know the "ugly truth" than forever be a chump and believe a lie.

I'm not calling for a witch hunt, and ballplayers should not be lightly or falsely accused of using steroids. However, if compelling evidence comes out that a player was a user, I want that player exposed. Exposing a steroid user does not taint a player as you suggest. Rather, it is the player's decision to use steroids is that taints him.

Preferring not to to have guilty players exposed is akin to preferring to go through life as the "happy little idiot."

SoLongFrank
03-13-2006, 02:28 PM
I've said enough. Let the columnists do the rest:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.schmuck13mar13,0,79582.column?coll=bal-sports-baseball
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060313/SPORTS08/603130355/1129/SPORTS0104

Honestly, I was only drawn to this thread because of Roger's column suggesting Sosa should be the new single-season HR-King. I fully admit I'm anti-Sosa. He not only cheated in growing a body from 180 to 230 but he cheated with corked bats as well. The evidence against Bonds & McGwire is circumstantial & appears outside the game of MLB. The evidence of Sosa's cheating does not. The fact the league slapped him on the wrist for it is appauling.

That's what makes me upset with some Sox fans in this thread. They seem over-joyed at the opp to crucify Bonds & yet they say practically nothing over Sosa. I don't care if the HOF has about 2 doz really bad apples in it. Sosa knowingly cheated in the game of MLB. Only in Cubago would a reporter accept an excuse that a player of his experience can't tell one bat from another. Especially a hallowed out one. To do that in this millenium is inexcusable & should immediately remove any consideration for him at the HOF.

It sickens me that not only does the Cubago media continue to defend this despicable ball player but they go so far as to suggest he should still be honored by a statue at Wrigley. Any association with this game-of-play cheater only weakens the credibility of that organization.

Some of you think Bonds was the #1 cheater of this era. I think it's Sosa. I want all of you to think it's Sosa. Bonds is a close #2. Followed by Canseco, McGwire, Palmeiro, Giambi, Boone, I-Rod, etc. To the best of my knowledge none of these guys violated the rules of MLB like Sosa. None of them benefited from juicing like Sosa either.

Only in the Cubago media would a man like this have apologist after apologist. If you believe an expert slugger of his experience can't tell the difference between the wt of one bat from another when he swings a bat you are either stupid or lying to yourself. Pick one. He knowingly cheated in the game of baseball & there's no reason to believe it wasn't the first time.

His 3 60+ HR seasons are a travesty. They make MLB look like the WWE. He not only was aided by juicing so fast that he gained 50 pounds in a few short yrs but also corked bats! Does any one believe that any player benefited more from cheating than Sosa? Why isn't he public enemy #1 amongst MLB fans? Do they not realize that the 3 60+ HR seasons are likely to stand the test of time?

At least he barely weighed 180 when he played for the White Sox. For the record, I felt he was juicing in 1998. I followed McGwire around (STL, CHI, MIL) thinking he was battling a cheater. No one gets that big that fast w/out cheating. No one goes from a barely avg player to a superstar that fast w/out cheating. I had already experienced the Bosworth fallout & so it seemed obvious Sosa took that same route.

It's hypocrisy pure & simple in the Cubago media that at the same time they relish in ripping Bonds a new one they write articles that 1) Sosa is deserving of the HOF, 2) Sosa warrants a statue at Wrigley, & 3) Sosa should be the single season HR leader.

:puking: :puking::puking: If you want to condemn Bonds fine. But don't leave out ShamME in the process. If he does make into the HOF I think I'll puke my guts out for a week!

fusillirob1983
03-13-2006, 03:07 PM
That's what makes me upset with some Sox fans in this thread. They seem over-joyed at the opp to crucify Bonds & yet they say practically nothing over Sosa.

If you look at the first post in the thread, it's the SI article about Bonds. That's probably why nobody's saying anything about Sosa. I think most people here consider Sosa a cheater too, but Bonds was the topic of the thread.

Baby Fisk
03-13-2006, 03:12 PM
Bonds = Sosa = McGwire = Canseco = Palmeiro. Equal contempt.

PaulDrake
03-13-2006, 03:18 PM
I've said enough. Let the columnists do the rest:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-sp.schmuck13mar13,0,79582.column?coll=bal-sports-baseball
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060313/SPORTS08/603130355/1129/SPORTS0104

Honestly, I was only drawn to this thread because of Roger's column suggesting Sosa should be the new single-season HR-King. I fully admit I'm anti-Sosa. He not only cheated in growing a body from 180 to 230 but he cheated with corked bats as well. The evidence against Bonds & McGwire is circumstantial & appears outside the game of MLB. The evidence of Sosa's cheating does not. The fact the league slapped him on the wrist for it is appauling.

That's what makes me upset with some Sox fans in this thread. They seem over-joyed at the opp to crucify Bonds & yet they say practically nothing over Sosa. I don't care if the HOF has about 2 doz really bad apples in it. Sosa knowingly cheated in the game of MLB. Only in Cubago would a reporter accept an excuse that a player of his experience can't tell one bat from another. Especially a hallowed out one. To do that in this millenium is inexcusable & should immediately remove any consideration for him at the HOF.

It sickens me that not only does the Cubago media continue to defend this despicable ball player but they go so far as to suggest he should still be honored by a statue at Wrigley. Any association with this game-of-play cheater only weakens the credibility of that organization.

Some of you think Bonds was the #1 cheater of this era. I think it's Sosa. I want all of you to think it's Sosa. Bonds is a close #2. Followed by Canseco, McGwire, Palmeiro, Giambi, Boone, I-Rod, etc. To the best of my knowledge none of these guys violated the rules of MLB like Sosa. None of them benefited from juicing like Sosa either.

Only in the Cubago media would a man like this have apologist after apologist. If you believe an expert slugger of his experience can't tell the difference between the wt of one bat from another when he swings a bat you are either stupid or lying to yourself. Pick one. He knowingly cheated in the game of baseball & there's no reason to believe it wasn't the first time.

His 3 60+ HR seasons are a travesty. They make MLB look like the WWE. He not only was aided by juicing so fast that he gained 50 pounds in a few short yrs but also corked bats! Does any one believe that any player benefited more from cheating than Sosa? Why isn't he public enemy #1 amongst MLB fans? Do they not realize that the 3 60+ HR seasons are likely to stand the test of time?

At least he barely weighed 180 when he played for the White Sox. For the record, I felt he was juicing in 1998. I followed McGwire around (STL, CHI, MIL) thinking he was battling a cheater. No one gets that big that fast w/out cheating. No one goes from a barely avg player to a superstar that fast w/out cheating. I had already experienced the Bosworth fallout & so it seemed obvious Sosa took that same route.

It's hypocrisy pure & simple in the Cubago media that at the same time they relish in ripping Bonds a new one they write articles that 1) Sosa is deserving of the HOF, 2) Sosa warrants a statue at Wrigley, & 3) Sosa should be the single season HR leader.

:puking: :puking::puking: If you want to condemn Bonds fine. But don't leave out ShamME in the process. If he does make into the HOF I think I'll puke my guts out for a week! Pretzel logic. I'll be sickened if any of the above mentioned gets in the HOF.

TomBradley72
03-13-2006, 03:57 PM
Bonds = Sosa = McGwire = Canseco = Palmeiro. Equal contempt.

Baker = Baker/Riggleman = LaRussa

Giants = Cubs = Cardinals = A's = Orioles/Rangers.

LaRuss especially seems to be getting a free pass.

santo=dorf
03-13-2006, 11:15 PM
Apparently in another Barry Bonds book, he told Ken Griffey Jr. and 3 other guys that he was going to start roiding up "hardcore" after the 1998 season. This was just mentioned during Sportscenter.

samram
03-13-2006, 11:30 PM
Apparently in another Barry Bonds book, he told Ken Griffey Jr. and 3 other guys that he was going to start roiding up "hardcore" after the 1998 season. This was just mentioned during Sportscenter.

Damnit, santo=dorf, I would rather just not know. Now you've burdened me with the knowledge that a true American hero may have cheated.

Did Sportscenter refer to the book as an "alleged book"? Or question the existence of any Ken Griffey Jr.? Anything to make sure Barry's reality show isn't perceived as too big a joke.

kevin57
03-14-2006, 08:48 AM
Some of the best fun the media could have with Bonds is dropping "alleged" and "allegedly" before the world "steriod user." There is no way Bonds is going to sue for defamation, slander, etc. because then he'd have to bear his soul in depositions and on the witness stand. No chance.

SoLongFrank
03-14-2006, 12:11 PM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0314reds.html
Greenies, & the like provide a temporary boost to the psyche of a MLB player. It's nothing lasting & it's a dual-edged sword because the cost of that relaxed state is less focus.

The roiders are vastly different.

http://www.citizinemag.com/commentary/commentary-0306_sammysosa.htm
Avg All-Star went from 190 (1992) to 210 (2002).

http://www.naturalstrength.com/steroids/detail.asp?ArticleID=1050
McGwire went from 210 to 250.
Sosa went from 175 to 230.
Bonds went from 185 to 228. 190 (1997)

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/charts/weights/weights.shtml

I also want to say Mike North is a big idiot who knows Jack **** about Frank Thomas' earlier days.

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/T/Thomas_Frank68.stm
Thomas went from 257 High School to 270 (2006). About a 5% wt gain. He hope to lose 5-10 pds before May.
One of the top prospects in the state of AL just signed to play TE for Auburn. He's listed at 6-3, 246 pds.

Achievements:
- posted big numbers for his high school in Columbus, GA. Nearly made 1986 amateur draft. Left off 1988 US Olympic team.
- two sport scholarship to Auburn (football TE, baseball 1B) & won the SEC MVP in 1989 setting a new school rec w 49 HRs.
- Named to College All-American Baseball team that year for 1B at a listed wt of 270.
- With the 7th overall pick in the 1989 FA draft he was picked by the White Sox. He was listed at a wt of 270.
- 1990 he was named Baseball America's Minor League Player of the Year. CWS: 45H, 60gms, .330A, 7HR, 31RBIs.
- In that year between AA & CWS he led all of baseball with 156 walks.

The rest can be found at any baseball site.