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cornball
01-10-2002, 08:38 PM
help me with the concern of the Sox payroll. Everone is all concerned of the payroll because of some Reinsdorf guilt trip. I looked at the salaries of our opening day roster from last year which was ranked 16th out of 30, at $62,363,000. Since then we lost David Well for 9.2 million, Baldwin for 6 mil, Perry for just under 1, Eldred for .75, the injury for Frank's 10 was covered in part by insurance......I just dont understand. At 62 million we are in the bottom half and we just pared the payroll by another 20......and we better watch every dime to "be competitive". The goal of this organization as i remember Shu saying a few years ago was to be competitive year in and year out.....thats just fine ...just like having the second best record of the 1990's.... what about championships. Winning a title will make more morey then they ever imagine and also draw free agents to play here to be competitive year in and year out...

Daver
01-10-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by cornball
help me with the concern of the Sox payroll. Everone is all concerned of the payroll because of some Reinsdorf guilt trip. I looked at the salaries of our opening day roster from last year which was ranked 16th out of 30, at $62,363,000. Since then we lost David Well for 9.2 million, Baldwin for 6 mil, Perry for just under 1, Eldred for .75, the injury for Frank's 10 was covered in part by insurance......I just dont understand. At 62 million we are in the bottom half and we just pared the payroll by another 20......and we better watch every dime to "be competitive". The goal of this organization as i remember Shu saying a few years ago was to be competitive year in and year out.....thats just fine ...just like having the second best record of the 1990's.... what about championships. Winning a title will make more morey then they ever imagine and also draw free agents to play here to be competitive year in and year out...

Reinsdorf paid Frank's salary last year,not the insurance company,they would have only paid 250,000 based on the clause in Frank's contract.You need to keep in mind how the insurance industry works,they only pay the bare minimum,and the player is not the insured,the contract is.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-10-2002, 09:04 PM
You're making way too much sense here, Cornball. Besides all the other important points you made, let's not forget the Sox jacked their ticket prices and parking fees last year. I don't see them rolling back prices now that payroll has been trimmed.

Let's face it. Our owner has no shame. He's got a brand-new $125 million playground ringed with 100 diamond suites (the whole thing built precisely to his specifications) and all he can think to do is come up with another excuse for why he can't afford a champion.

BTW, welcome to the board.

:gulp:

PANFIRECRACKER
01-11-2002, 12:22 PM
daver,
you touched on something Ive never quite understood. are all contracts insured with disability? were the sox bailed out of the contracts of those injured last year (parque,osuna,wunsch) for the percentage of the season they were not available? thanks

Daver
01-11-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by PANFIRECRACKER
daver,
you touched on something Ive never quite understood. are all contracts insured with disability? were the sox bailed out of the contracts of those injured last year (parque,osuna,wunsch) for the percentage of the season they were not available? thanks

That depends on the team,and the contract amount for the most part.That is the main reason that a signing will be contigent on a physical.The amount of the contract plays a large role also,you would not pay the premiums to insure an Aaron Rowand type contract,or a Kelly Wunsch for that matter,but you would insure a Magglio Ordonez type contract.As far as Osuna goes I would think he would be covered under insurance since he passed the team physical,as would Parque.Hope this helped.

czalgosz
01-11-2002, 02:21 PM
Just as an aside, the major insurance companies will probably in future not offer insurance to baseball contracts. As it is, the stipulations are very tight for insurance (the player cannot have played at all that season in order for the team to collect, so guys like Parque, Thomas et. al, would not be covered) and the insurance companies still don't like to pay out that much cash, so...

cornball
01-11-2002, 09:33 PM
I thought i remember Lords of London going bankrupt over this type of things from the baseball strike but....... your still missing the point which is this game is expensive, we are supposed to be a "major" market.....win and they will make you a fortune..Reinsdorf should know better then anyone with the Bulls..Florida proved you could buy a championship as have the Yanks the past several years....we keep talking potential or could have beens, thats the point!

czalgosz
01-11-2002, 09:45 PM
A few thoughts on this...

1) It's very easy for all of us to tell Reinsdorf to spend more money, because it's not our money to spend. I prefer to talk about how best to spend the money the Sox do have, not talk about how they should spend more. It's moot, anyway.

2) As has been talked about on this board, the only team that can spend as much as the Yankees and still turn a profit is the Yankees. If the Sox weren't competing with the Cubs for available baseball dollars, the market would be different, but as it is, the Sox are a small market. And even if the Sox sold out every game, they still would not make as much money as the Mets or Yankees or Red Sox do, because of the economic reality of the situation. New York is as big a market as the next 3 combined. This is a reality we have to contend with.

3) Yes, Wayne Huizenga did buy a title for the Marlins, and that was possibly the most cynical and terrible thing that an owner has ever done in the history of baseball. He spent huge on a payroll, accepting losses, in order to boost attendance and making it look like the Marlins were a good long-term investment. He then sold the team (but not the stadium) for a huge profit and ran, leaving the new owners (who should have figured this out before buying the team, anyway) with a dismal failure on their hands and their new-found fans without any hope for the team's future. Meanwhile, Huizenga is still raking in the cash for owning the stadium, which is the real cash cow.

Daver
01-11-2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by cornball
I thought i remember Lords of London going bankrupt over this type of things from the baseball strike but....... your still missing the point which is this game is expensive, we are supposed to be a "major" market.....win and they will make you a fortune..Reinsdorf should know better then anyone with the Bulls..Florida proved you could buy a championship as have the Yanks the past several years....we keep talking potential or could have beens, thats the point!

Do you buy a championship only to suck because you can't afford to keep it together for more than one year,as the Marlins did,or do you build a contender that will stay in contention for five or so years?

Using the Bulls is not helping your case,they built a champion,they didn't buy one.

cornball
01-12-2002, 08:55 AM
Daver the Bulls proves my case exactly....they couldnt get fans to see them at all pre-Jordan.....and with Jordan means winning and with winning brought sellouts and with sellouts brought more money then Reinsdorf ever thought of... via TV, radio, new stadium...ect...sellout even after they suck....

The thing with baseball with no cap...money is apparently the king....with the proper revenue (which is our excuse for not looking at FA this year) you can always be competitive.....

I dont remember looking in baseball books and seeing a list of contenders ...but i always see the list of teams in the series and pennant winners

If your happy contending...thats fine....I always thought the goal was to win it all...to finally be the best...Champions...after 85 years i would take it anyway possible....If you think of it......generations ...several generations in Chicago never saw a baseball champ .....they saw contenders....but they can say that in every town

PaleHoseGeorge
01-12-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by cornball
If your happy contending...thats fine....I always thought the goal was to win it all...to finally be the best...Champions...after 85 years i would take it anyway possible....If you think of it......generations ...several generations in Chicago never saw a baseball champ .....they saw contenders....but they can say that in every town

Bingo! All the disadvantages Arizona supposedly suffers didn't stop their owner from marching straight out and fielding a champion. What Sox Fans get from Reinsdorf are excuses--21 years worth. Precisely when will Satan make enough money to do anything more than "contend"?

We all know the answer to that one, don't we?

czalgosz
01-12-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Bingo! All the disadvantages Arizona supposedly suffers didn't stop their owner from marching straight out and fielding a champion. What Sox Fans get from Reinsdorf are excuses--21 years worth. Precisely when will Satan make enough money to do anything more than "contend"?

We all know the answer to that one, don't we?

The D-Backs will pull a Marlins and sell off their team in the near future, mark my words.

Buying a championship is a risky venture. At best, you get one, possibly two championships before tanking (unless, again, you're the Yankees) and at worst you end up like the Dodgers or Red Sox, stuck with a bunch of washed-up overpaid crybabies while you struggle to reach the .500 mark.

Running a quality organization is a much better way to do things, IMO, but hey, it's just me talking.

voodoochile
01-12-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Bingo! All the disadvantages Arizona supposedly suffers didn't stop their owner from marching straight out and fielding a champion. What Sox Fans get from Reinsdorf are excuses--21 years worth. Precisely when will Satan make enough money to do anything more than "contend"?

We all know the answer to that one, don't we?

I admit to being a little confused here...

Weren't you the one pointing out the reletive successes the Sox have had under Reinsdorf compared to past owners last summer?

I, for one, don't expect the team to try and spend with the Yankees of the world. Face it, 20K fans/game is not enough revenue to spend tons and tons of money. The difference between 20K and 40K fans per game is roughly $50 million per year. Not saying anyone on this board is remiss, but there are a bunch of fans out there who are NOT putting their money where their hearts are. Yes some of those problems are driven by the evil Tribune empire and its incessant shilling for their own baseball product, but most of the problem lies with the fans themselves. If they really cared, they would go to the park and contribute to the teams success. I defend us and defend us on other boards, but face it... there are a bunch of wienies out there...

Is that the sole reason we do not field a championship team? No! BUT, (and like Boomer's it's a big one) the lack of revenue does impact the ability of ANY business to be successful. What do you want Reinsdorf to do? Run a deficit just to field a POTENTIAL championship team? Under the present system, with the present revenue constraints, the Sox best chance to field a WS winner is to build it from within. That is what they are trying to do right now. I wish it took less time, but it is where we are at. Some of the blame for the present problems have to lie with the fans who refuse to attend games...

cornball
01-12-2002, 02:11 PM
Two responses:

#1 if you win they win come......proven with the sox even in recent history..

#2 the arguement of there are better ways to do it vs. the marlin and d-backs etc.... cz if it means 1 or 2 championships well hmmmmm...... i think i will take it.....quality organization win championships and to build for what? i thought the goal was to build for championships......at some point you have to go for it!

czalgosz
01-12-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Two responses:

#1 if you win they win come......proven with the sox even in recent history..

#2 the arguement of there are better ways to do it vs. the marlin and d-backs etc.... cz if it means 1 or 2 championships well hmmmmm...... i think i will take it.....quality organization win championships and to build for what? i thought the goal was to build for championships......at some point you have to go for it!

If it was guaranteed that you win doing that, sure, I'd support it, but it's far from guaranteed. Like I said, the Dodgers and Red Sox pumped up their payroll to huge levels, and how many championships did it get them?

Paulwny
01-12-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


The D-Backs will pull a Marlins and sell off their team in the near future, mark my words.

.
You may be correct however, the D-backs would probable be in the black if they shared in mlb's tv revenue. I believe they have one more year to go before they receive their share.
The owners felt that by holding back on this money an expansion team wouldn't be able to afford a championship team. Again the owners were wrong.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-12-2002, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


The D-Backs will pull a Marlins and sell off their team in the near future, mark my words.

Buying a championship is a risky venture. At best, you get one, possibly two championships before tanking (unless, again, you're the Yankees) and at worst you end up like the Dodgers or Red Sox, stuck with a bunch of washed-up overpaid crybabies while you struggle to reach the .500 mark.

Running a quality organization is a much better way to do things, IMO, but hey, it's just me talking.

Really? The D-Backs will "pull a Marlins"?

Does that mean Colangelo will consolidate his profits by selling the franchise at the high-water mark while retaining all the lease revenue the alledgedly money-losing operation pays him even now?

Huizenga is still profiting off the Marlins--even as the franchise is threatened with contraction. Unbelievable.

Stop believing these owners are pollyannas. They regularly make fools of know-nothing sportswriters who have no training (or inclination) to investigate the business facts of sports.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-12-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I admit to being a little confused here...

Weren't you the one pointing out the reletive successes the Sox have had under Reinsdorf compared to past owners last summer?

I, for one, don't expect the team to try and spend with the Yankees of the world. Face it, 20K fans/game is not enough revenue to spend tons and tons of money. The difference between 20K and 40K fans per game is roughly $50 million per year. Not saying anyone on this board is remiss, but there are a bunch of fans out there who are NOT putting their money where their hearts are. Yes some of those problems are driven by the evil Tribune empire and its incessant shilling for their own baseball product, but most of the problem lies with the fans themselves. If they really cared, they would go to the park and contribute to the teams success. I defend us and defend us on other boards, but face it... there are a bunch of wienies out there...

Is that the sole reason we do not field a championship team? No! BUT, (and like Boomer's it's a big one) the lack of revenue does impact the ability of ANY business to be successful. What do you want Reinsdorf to do? Run a deficit just to field a POTENTIAL championship team? Under the present system, with the present revenue constraints, the Sox best chance to field a WS winner is to build it from within. That is what they are trying to do right now. I wish it took less time, but it is where we are at. Some of the blame for the present problems have to lie with the fans who refuse to attend games...

I defended Reinsdorf? Maybe next to Wirtz and the Cubune (who have no interest in fielding a winner at all), but certainly not compared to teams outside Chicago. I know I've attempted to debunk the Reinsdorf myth of building a Bulls dynasty several times here.

At heart, I'm a capitalist. I want every owner to make millions of dollars owning their franchises. I want the players to make whatever the owners will pay--which of course is subject to the same market forces the rest of us are paid by, too.

What I'm against is free lunches. Nobody has cried longer or harder for more and more of somebody else's money than Reinsdorf. He's been here 21 years and still can't find the championship formula--in spite of a new ballpark, 100 diamond suites, and the sweetest lease arrangement in pro sports. Hey, he even makes more money than the Cubs on TV, if you're inclined to believe the bogus books the owners share (which I don't).

The ultimate blame for lack of customers doesn't rest with the customers. It rests with poorly managed businesses who fail to attract customers. Reinsdorf behaves as though he's entitled to customers, same as he's entitled to taxpayer subsidies. I'm not buying it.

Reinsdorf ought to sell the Sox, because the marketing and public relations skills necessary to running a successful and healthy sports franchise are beyond hom. The fact he won't even discuss selling speaks volumes for what he knows the franchise is worth. We should all be so lucky to get such a return on our $20 million investment.

Reinsdorf is milking the White Sox, plain and simple.

cheeses_h_rice
01-12-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


I defended Reinsdorf? Maybe next to Wirtz and the Cubune (who have no interest in fielding a winner at all), but certainly not compared to teams outside Chicago. I know I've attempted to debunk the Reinsdorf myth of building a Bulls dynasty several times here.

At heart, I'm a capitalist. I want every owner to make millions of dollars owning their franchises. I want the players to make whatever the owners will pay--which of course is subject to the same market forces the rest of us are paid by, too.

What I'm against is free lunches. Nobody has cried longer or harder for more and more of somebody else's money than Reinsdorf. He's been here 21 years and still can't find the championship formula--in spite of a new ballpark, 100 diamond suites, and the sweetest lease arrangement in pro sports. Hey, he even makes more money than the Cubs on TV, if you're inclined to believe the bogus books the owners share (which I don't).

The ultimate blame for lack of customers doesn't rest with the customers. It rests with poorly managed businesses who fail to attract customers. Reinsdorf behaves as though he's entitled to customers, same as he's entitled to taxpayer subsidies. I'm not buying it.

Reinsdorf ought to sell the Sox, because the marketing and public relations skills necessary to running a successful and healthy sports franchise are beyond hom. The fact he won't even discuss selling speaks volumes for what he knows the franchise is worth. We should all be so lucky to get such a return on our $20 million investment.

Reinsdorf is milking the White Sox, plain and simple.

But surely, George, you'll agree that Reinsdorf is a millionaire many times over, and that he's not running the White Sox purely as a means to stuffing his coffers that much more, right? Even I am not that cynical. I think he wants to win as much as the next guy (except perhaps Steinbrenner, who can outspend every team and still make $). I won't defend his business moves over the past decade or so, but to say that Reinsdorf is looking at the Sox franchise as just a means to an end is unfairly maligning the man.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-12-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
But surely, George, you'll agree that Reinsdorf is a millionaire many times over, and that he's not running the White Sox purely as a means to stuffing his coffers that much more, right? Even I am not that cynical. I think he wants to win as much as the next guy (except perhaps Steinbrenner, who can outspend every team and still make $). I won't defend his business moves over the past decade or so, but to say that Reinsdorf is looking at the Sox franchise as just a means to an end is unfairly maligning the man.

If it was just a few years (less than ten), I wouldn't begrudge him bad luck. But this is different. He bought the team for what is now a pittance. He hollered for what amounted to a bailout by Illinois taxpayers and got it. He fielded teams that clearly had championship potential, but chose other paths that had nothing to do with victory on the field--but victory over the union.

Do I believe Jerry Reinsdorf wants to field a winner? Absolutely. Does he want to do it more than any other owner in Chicago? I believe he does. However, that doesn't get him off the hook for consistently doing too little to field a winner. The team's failures are ultimately his responsibility--not his customers, the fans.

If this is such a lost cause to bring a championship to the South Side, then Jerry Reinsdorf should quite simply SELL THE TEAM. There are plenty of ownership groups who would appear, more than willing to pledge the team remain in the #3 market in America playing inside a ballpark with 100 diamond suites. For this there can be no doubt.

Yes, Reinsdorf wants a winner, but not at the expense of his profits. He's content to field contenders--which is precisely what we've gotten. After 21 years, it's time to give it up. It's not like he'll get hurt financially. He'll make an unbelievable profit on his $20 million investment.

Maybe the next Sox owner won't squander the benefits Reinsdorf has only seen fit to pooh pooh? Personally, I'm willing to take my chances. We already know too well the current devil.

cornball
01-12-2002, 10:13 PM
Amen to that George....you are right on.....I dont think we are asking for the moon but we are on the fringe now and our competition in the division is vulnerable....now is the time to take a chance....i dont think any of us want to mortgage the future but the future should be now. Even though many fans hold him accountable for the strike and also for holding us ransom with the possible moving of the team, they still came to the park when the team was winning and they would again. This town is so hungry for winners. The idea of just another middle of the road team will not do it, for attendance. We are not asking to match the Yankees money, I know we could do it smart, but throw us a bone or two. Show us you are doing everything possible to make a champion.....If it was only DeBartolo like it should have been.