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Lip Man 1
02-27-2006, 01:27 PM
It looks like Minnie was passed over again for the hall of fame. 17 names were just announced....never heard of 16 of them....but they get in.

Buck O'Neil was also shut out.

Those folks must be out of their friggin' minds.

Lip

skottyj242
02-27-2006, 01:29 PM
What a shame.

SOecks
02-27-2006, 01:29 PM
:(::(::(:

SOXPHILE
02-27-2006, 01:31 PM
I just heard it on an update. Oh well. They don't let these guys in, but then writers at the Cubune who have a vote say they WOULD vote in Sosa. That's too bad. I wasn't sure of Minnie would make it, but I thought for sure Buck O'Neil would.

Lip Man 1
02-27-2006, 01:35 PM
Story on Tribune.com. Quotes Minnie and Reinsdorf:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060227soxminoso,1,7534706.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

and to think with numbers like these, he doesn't deserve to make it? What were those eggheads thinking of???

http://www.baseballhalloffame.com/hofers_and_honorees/minoso_minnie.htm

Lip

Dan Mega
02-27-2006, 01:36 PM
Sad:(:

TDog
02-27-2006, 01:37 PM
Most of the voters evidently took it as a vote for players who never got the chance to play in the Major Leagues.

Tekijawa
02-27-2006, 01:39 PM
Maybe his full name is just to long to write in the Ballot, these guys are pretty lazy you know!

itsnotrequired
02-27-2006, 01:40 PM
It looks like Minnie was passed over again for the hall of fame. 17 names were just announced....never heard of 16 of them....but they get in.

Buck O'Neil was also shut out.

Those folks must be out of their friggin' minds.

Lip

Minnie is a shame in itself but Buck O'Neil? Huh?

:mad:

spawn
02-27-2006, 01:40 PM
It looks like Minnie was passed over again for the hall of fame. 17 names were just announced....never heard of 16 of them....but they get in.

Buck O'Neil was also shut out.

Those folks must be out of their friggin' minds.

Lip
How the hell does Buck O'Neil get shut out? The guy has been the ultimate ambassador for the Negro Leagues. Yet 'roid boys McGwire and Sosa will get in eventually. What a joke.

Corlose 15
02-27-2006, 01:41 PM
:hawk
"Thats B.S.!"

Lip Man 1
02-27-2006, 01:48 PM
Perhaps someone can confirm or deny this.

Fay Vincent was the 'chair' of this special committee.

Didn't Vincent and Reinsdorf have a 'disagreement' over Minoso when Reinsdorf wanted to let him play a game in the 90's?

The description of Vincent by John Helyar in his book 'The Lords Of The Realm' paints Vincent as imperial, egotistical and vindictive.

If true I wonder if Vincent used this against Minoso and lobbied to hold him back. Not saying he did it, just wondering if my historical facts are accurate.

Lip

FP_sox
02-27-2006, 01:56 PM
:(:

Very sad for Minnie, I can't understand why he didn't make it.

Hangar18
02-27-2006, 02:07 PM
:(:

Very sad for Minnie, I can't understand why he didn't make it.


I know why ......................Minnie doesnt have the Media on his side. He is way more deserving than Ron Santo was, but that bozo begs and campaigns for himself on a yearly basis. :angry:

TheDarkGundam
02-27-2006, 02:17 PM
:hawk
"Thats B.S.!"
I second that! :angry:

hold2dibber
02-27-2006, 02:28 PM
I'm am in utter shock. I thought it was a no-brainer --- in fact, it was a no-brainer. The HOF is a joke. Tony frickin' Perez is in the Hall but Minnie isn't? Robbery. I hope Minnie takes some solace in the way that the Sox organization and fans have continued to support and honor him. It's a shame that the myopic fools who are the gatekeepers to the Hall haven't done the same.

anewman35
02-27-2006, 02:29 PM
I know why ......................Minnie doesnt have the Media on his side. He is way more deserving than Ron Santo was, but that bozo begs and campaigns for himself on a yearly basis. :angry:

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Effa Manley, Alex Pompez, Cum Posey, J.L. Wilkinson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez, Louis Santop, Ben Taylor and Sol White had the media on their side? :rolleyes:

Not everything is about the media. This is one of those things.

FP_sox
02-27-2006, 02:31 PM
I know why ......................Minnie doesnt have the Media on his side. He is way more deserving than Ron Santo was, but that bozo begs and campaigns for himself on a yearly basis. :angry:

I don't think Santo made it into the Hall :tongue:

I see your point, although I was very surprised to see that Minne had been highlighted all over MLB.com, SI and other news sources recently. I assumed that he was a sure pick. I also thought that the SOX winning the WS would have helped with the exposure issue. Minne has a statue at the cell, and is even on the WS DVD. Oh well, I just feel bad for him because I am sure he is disappointed.

p.s. I think Santo is the most annoying person on the radio

PaulDrake
02-27-2006, 02:38 PM
Story on Tribune.com. Quotes Minnie and Reinsdorf:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-060227soxminoso,1,7534706.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

and to think with numbers like these, he doesn't deserve to make it? What were those eggheads thinking of???

http://www.baseballhalloffame.com/hofers_and_honorees/minoso_minnie.htm

Lip I still remember walking home from the corner drugstore with my freshly bought pack of Topps Baseball Cards. When I saw my Minnie Minoso card in the stack I let out a yell and let the whole neighborhood know about it. It was 1960, and Minnie was back with the Sox after a two year absence. First Billy Pierce and now Minnie, not given the proper consideration by the "experts" who decide these things. Posters younger than I am, which is just about everyone here, will have to believe us OFs (that's not outfielders) when we tell you what a talented and exciting player Minnie Minoso was. At bat, in the field, and on the basepaths. I wish I could tell Frank Thomas that this is a real example of being disrespected.

SouthSide_HitMen
02-27-2006, 03:25 PM
The electees include seven Negro leagues players: Ray Brown, Willard Brown,Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente,and Jud Wilson; five pre-Negro leagues players: Frank Grant, Pete Hill, José Méndez, Louis Santop,and Ben Taylor; four Negro leagues executives Manley, Alex Pompez, Cum Posey, and J.L. Wilkinson; and one pre-Negro leagues executive Sol White.

Each of the 17 received the necessary 75 percent of the 12-member voting committee to earn election.

Today they nearly doubled the number of "Negro League inductions" (from 18 to 35) including a woman who coowned a team for several years and worked in the front office.

I know many here do not like Bill James, but his rankings are the only ones I have regarding the Negro Leagues and the inducted members closely follow his rankings. Here are his top five by position and their status.

Catcher - In - 1. Josh Gibson (1972), 2. Louis Santop (today), 3. Biz Mackey (today). Out - 4. Double Duty Radcliffe, 5. Bruce Petway.

First Base - In - 1. Buck Leonard (1972), 3. Ben Taylor (today). Out - 2. Luke Easter, 4. Buck O'Neill, 5. Tank Carr.

Second Base - In - 6. Frank Grant (today) . Out - 1. Bingo DeMoss, 2. Newt Allen, 3. George Scales, 4. Sammy T Hughes & 5. Bill Monroe.

Third Base - In - 1. Ray Dandridge (1987), 2. Judy Johnson (1975), 4. Jud Wilson (today) . Out - 3. Ollie Marcelle, 5. Dave Malarcher.

Shortstop - In - 1. Pop Lloyd (1977), 2. Willie Wells (1997). Out - 3. Dick Lundy, 4. Dobie Moore, 5. Bill Riggins.

Left Field - In - 1. Turkey Stearnes (2000), 2. Mule Suttles (today), 3. Monte Irvin (1973), 4. Pete Hill (today). Out - 5. Gene Benson.

Centerfield - In - 1. Oscar Charleston (1976), 2. Christobel Torriente (today), 3. Cool Papa Bell (1974). Out - 4. Spotswood Poles, 5. Jimmy Lyons.

Right Field - In - 1. Martin Dihigo (1977), 2. Willard Brown (today). Out - 3. Ted Strong, 4. Wild Bill Wright, 5. Alejandro Oms.

Bill James did not have a top 10 + for pitchers. Here are pitchers listed as being the best (year by year).

Pitchers - In -
Ray Brown (today) best in 1940
Andy Cooper (today) best in 1923
Leon Day (1995) best in 1937
Bill Foster (1996) best in 1927, 1931 & 1932
Rube Foster (1981) best in 1904, 1905 & 1906
Jose Mendez (today) best in 1920
Satchel Paige (1971) best in 1936 (shows the pitching depth of the league)
Joe "Bullet" Rogan (1998) best in 1924
Hilton Smith (2001) best in 1939, 1940, 1942
Joe Williams (1999) best in 1914, 1915, 1916

Players who had a split career like Minoso seem to be the ones hurt the most.

Minnie Minoso is ranked 10th all time among left fielders by Bill James (Williams, Musial, Bonds, Henderson, Yastrzemski, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Al Simmons, Tim Rock Raines & Stargell are 1-9). The White Sox claim 3 of the top 10 Left Fielders of all time among their alumni. He ranks 17th all time in win shares (229) between the ages of 30 - 39 (Wagner, Bonds, Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Rose, Schmidt, Cobb, Speaker, Morgan, Musial, Lajoie, Gehringer, Bill Terry, Frank Robinson and Eddie Collins are 1-16) and all but Rose are in (all but Terry are inner circle Hall of Fame players). If Minoso was allowed to play in MLB before he turned 28 he would have been a lock for Hall of Fame induction a few years after retirement but this was held against him by the rules in place at the time.

Minnie Minoso should have been elected on the regular ballot (or now the veterans ballot). This was a chance for the Hall of Fame to correct a great injustice and they failed once again. The Veterans Committee gave him a scant 15% of the vote (75% is required for election) on its last ballot and it appears he may never be elected, let alone while he is still alive.

Each year the Hall of Fame loses more relevance with their decisions.

I have no comment on the four "executives". I do not consider executives, sportswriters or broadcasters on the same level as the players as far as the Hall of Fame goes. I have no problem honoring these contributors but they should be not given the same status as the players on the field nor should they be called "Hall of Famers" including electees I love including Bill Veeck, Mel Allen, et al.

I leave you with a quote by Ted Williams in 1955 - "Sooner or later, whenever we talk about hitting, someone will ask me if there will ever be another .400 hitter in the major leagues. Of all the so called "sluggers" in the big time today, the only one I can think of who really qualifies in all respects is Minnie Minoso."

TDog
02-27-2006, 03:36 PM
I know why ......................Minnie doesnt have the Media on his side. He is way more deserving than Ron Santo was, but that bozo begs and campaigns for himself on a yearly basis. :angry:

Every story I read on the AP wire for months about this coming election mentioned that Minoso was a top candidate and explained why. The media was very much on Minoso's side. The individuals who voted were not.

MarySwiss
02-27-2006, 03:41 PM
I'm am in utter shock. I thought it was a no-brainer --- in fact, it was a no-brainer. The HOF is a joke. Tony frickin' Perez is in the Hall but Minnie isn't? Robbery. I hope Minnie takes some solace in the way that the Sox organization and fans have continued to support and honor him. It's a shame that the myopic fools who are the gatekeepers to the Hall haven't done the same.
Second that! When I saw the thread title, I did a double-take; I was sure I was seeing things. This is truly pathetic. Let's hope Minnie doesn't get too upset. But knowing his personality, he probably will just take it in stride.

Lip Man 1
02-27-2006, 03:47 PM
Interesting comment on the Tribune 'blog.' (and yes I'm the Sox fan with a long memory...)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-blogcurrent,1,1990381.htmlstory?coll=cs-home-headlines

posted at 2:31 Chicago time.

Lip

jdm2662
02-27-2006, 04:31 PM
Interesting comment on the Tribune 'blog.' (and yes I'm the Sox fan with a long memory...)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-blogcurrent,1,1990381.htmlstory?coll=cs-home-headlines

posted at 2:31 Chicago time.

Lip

I read that before coming here, and yes I remember it vividly. Vincent was against it. It was one thing in 1993 when the Sox were ready to play in the playoffs, but the Sox were out of the division race by early September. Why not close out the history of Comiskey Park by letting Minnie play...

Help me out guys, was Buck O'Neal the guy on Chicago Tribune Live the other day? How does a pioneer not get in? Then again, life never makes sense...

SBSoxFan
02-27-2006, 04:56 PM
Minnie Minoso is ranked 10th all time among left fielders by Bill James
But he was a converted outfielder. How is that accounted for? What was he ranked at his original position, and how is the combination ranked?

chisoxfan64
02-27-2006, 05:00 PM
I remember meeting Minnie at old Comiskey when I was just a kid. He was the nicest, friendliest guy you could meet.

This is a shame.:(:

Lip Man 1
02-27-2006, 05:36 PM
Yes that was the same Buck O'Neil that was on Chicago Tribune Live. He was also one of the 'stars' in the Baseball series on PBS.

Also to the best of my knowledge except for a very short time in the mid-50's, Minnie always played the outfield. He was 'converted' to a thrid baseman but as stated that didn't last very long.

A friggin' travesty.

Lip

Professor
02-27-2006, 06:27 PM
Minnie is a shame in itself but Buck O'Neil? Huh?

:mad:

Exaclty. These two guys are gentlemen and spokesmen of the game of baseball. They are walking histories of baseball and Americana--good and bad. I was having a good day until I read this thread.

nebraskasox
02-27-2006, 06:31 PM
I remember meeting Minnie at old Comiskey when I was just a kid. He was the nicest, friendliest guy you could meet.

This is a shame.:(:

I agree. I met Minoso outside the hotel where the Sox were staying in KC in 1978 I believe. The year after the "SS Hitmen". My wife & I were sitting in the hotel lobby and I thought I recognized Minoso passing through the lobby. I followed him outside and a crowd had gathered around him. It was Minnie telling some kid that "first it's school, then base-a-bol". I got to shake his hand and tell him about when I was a kid at a Sox game in the early 60's. He was up and I yelled out at the top of my lungs, "Come on Minnie give the scoreboard a workout!". He belted one into the seats. The surrounding fans slapped me on the back and mussed my hair, as if I had something to do with it. Minnie just said, "I got lucky on that pitch."

He was very approachable and talked to everyone who wanted to say hello. I know I'm biased but he seems very deserving to be in the HOF both as a player and a person.

Vernam
02-27-2006, 06:53 PM
Interesting comment on the Tribune 'blog.' (and yes I'm the Sox fan with a long memory...)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-blogcurrent,1,1990381.htmlstory?coll=cs-home-headlines

posted at 2:31 Chicago time.

LipOr maybe Jack McDowell was on the HoF committee? :mad:

Minnie should be in the Hall based on what he did in MLB. That he lost between 3 and 5 years because he was kept out of MLB should be considered as an additional factor. The voters had a chance to right that wrong -- forgive me for thinking that's what their committee was created for -- but instead they took a very literalist view, that Minnie's Negro League accomplishments didn't merit enshrinement. By that logic, we have Jackie Robinson to blame, because if segregation had continued through the 1950s, Minnie would have been a completely undeniable pick today.

What a sickening outcome.

Vernam

Hendu
02-27-2006, 06:58 PM
It is a joke that Minnie is not in the Hall Of Fame.

Greg1983
02-27-2006, 07:10 PM
Kudos to everyone else for their posts on this thread.

This RUINED my day...and frankly, as much for Buck O'Neil as for Minnie. What a spectacular ambassador for the game.

If you're not going to have these guys in there, you may as well shut the damn place down. This is horrible.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: Stupid and disgusting.

Dadawg_77
02-27-2006, 07:42 PM
Minnie may have hurt his chances with his age discrepancy. Common wisdom and the official birthdate is November 29, 1922. However Minnie claims he was born in 1925. Now these is a rumor that Minnie is lying about his age since he told his wife that was three younger so she would give him the time of day. And now he can't go back on that lie.
What make this pivotal point, is if Minnie was born in 1922, he missed out on considerable amount of peak years playing which makes his numbers more impressive. If he was born in 1925, he spent his peak years in the majors. James and others, went with the 1922 birth date and prorate Minnie's stats for his missed peak years. Without that, he has a weak case to make the Hall of Frame.


http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/How_old_is_Minnie_Minoso


Minnie talking to MLB.com.
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20030201&content_id=195395&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp

markopat
02-27-2006, 07:44 PM
I leave you with a quote by Ted Williams in 1955 - "Sooner or later, whenever we talk about hitting, someone will ask me if there will ever be another .400 hitter in the major leagues. Of all the so called "sluggers" in the big time today, the only one I can think of who really qualifies in all respects is Minnie Minoso."

Awesome quote...never heard that before...thanks for leaving us with that!

SouthSide_HitMen
02-27-2006, 07:49 PM
But he was a converted outfielder. How is that accounted for? What was he ranked at his original position, and how is the combination ranked?

Bill James ranks the players total career at the position they played the most games at. If someone played 1000 games at 3B and 900 at LF, the total 1900 career would be judged among 3B, giving weight for the position change along the defensive spectrum.

I really have no opinion on Buck O'Neill. Yes he has done work as an ambassador of the game. Bill James had him ranked 4th among Negro League players. Is that good enough over the 40 year span of the leagues? Possibly. I wouldn't argue against it.

Minnie Minoso is a far greater debacle, IMO. He shouldn't have even had to get in via this backdoor method (the method isn't backdoor for the players who played most or all of their career in the Negro Leagues as unfortunately they were born too early). Minnie Minoso qualified based on the numbers and should have been elected by the BBWAA. Being the first "dark skinned Latino" (Ted Williams was able to play earlier though he had to downplay the fact he was Mexican) was a great first, but just like Jackie Robinson, his numbers alone were good enough for induction.

Today they elected "the first female" today who owned 50% of a Negro League team (her husband also owned 50%) for several years and did some civil rights work. That is great and all but I don't see how that adds up to being elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Effa Manley = Hall of Fame
Minnie Minoso = Rejected by the BBWAA, Veterans Committee, and several special Negro League committees.

I have reached the point of Daver / no return - Hall of Fame induction means nothing. Each year I crept closer to this conclusion but I have come to the point of no return.

The Sex Pistols said it best:

http://www.stereogum.com/archives/002352.html

Next to the Sex Pistols rock and roll and that hall of fame is a piss stain. Your museum. Urine in wine. Were not coming. Were not your monkeys and so what? Fame at $25,000 if we paid for a table or $15,000 to squeak up in the gallery, goes to a non profit organisation selling us a load of old famous. Congradulations. If you voted for us, hope you noted your reasons. Your anonymous as judges, but your still music industry people. Were not coming. Your not paying attention. Outside the **** stem is a real SEX PISTOL.

(Well actually the nature of the disdain for the hall of fame is summed up best here. The grammar / spelling - not so much. English 101 anyone?)

Vernam
02-28-2006, 06:16 PM
At least one writer, Bill Madden, seems to agree w/ Lip's theory that Vincent "imposed his will" on the committee. See http://tinyurl.com/la4ol. Madden thinks that's a good thing, though. :?: He goes so far as to say this week's vote would have been a "sham" if O'Neill or Minnie had been inducted. I don't know who the **** Bill Madden thinks he is, but he owes those two an apology.

Vernam

MarySwiss
02-28-2006, 06:25 PM
At least one writer, Bill Madden, seems to agree w/ Lip's theory that Vincent "imposed his will" on the committee. See http://tinyurl.com/la4ol. Madden thinks that's a good thing, though. :?: He goes so far as to say this week's vote would have been a "sham" if O'Neill or Minnie had been inducted. I don't know who the **** Bill Madden thinks he is, but he owes those two an apology.

Vernam
Yup. This was reprinted in today's Arizona Republic. And my reaction was precisely the same as yours. As for who he is, I googled him, and apparently he's a reporter for the NY Daily News. Which of course makes him an unimpeachable expert on all things baseball.

Lip Man 1
02-28-2006, 06:47 PM
Let's put it this way I spoke with a reporter from a mainstream Chicago newspaper today and they had the same thoughts that I did. That Vincent, even though he didn't vote, influenced the voting because of his dislike of Minnie and because of his dislike for Reinsdorf.

Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

TornLabrum
02-28-2006, 08:12 PM
Yup. This was reprinted in today's Arizona Republic. And my reaction was precisely the same as yours. As for who he is, I googled him, and apparently he's a reporter for the NY Daily News. Which of course makes him an unimpeachable expert on all things baseball.

Is the Daily News still owned by the Tribune Co.?

Lip Man 1
03-01-2006, 10:11 AM
Very interesting story in our newspaper today on this under the by line of Joe Posnanski from the Knight Ridder Tribune News

"On Monday when it appeared that O'Neil was short the votes he needed, Vincent apparently made a frantic plea to the committee to consider O'Neil's lifetime achievements and not just his playing days. According to a committee member, he sounded almost desperate."

Not one word in the story on Minoso. This helps confirm my previously posted thought that while Vincent couldn't vote he tried to influence his committee. We all know the history between Vincent and Reinsdorf don't we? Minnie wound up paying the price for it.

I don't often agree with Dan McGrath but when he was on Chicago Tribune Live! Monday he made a few good comment..."This committee had a lot of baseball historians but I don't know how many of then were good baseball fans."

ewokpelts
03-01-2006, 11:53 AM
I still want to know how a WHITE WOMAN WHO PRETENDED TO BE BLACK got elected.
Gene

tacosalbarojas
03-01-2006, 12:39 PM
I still want to know how a WHITE WOMAN WHO PRETENDED TO BE BLACK got elected.
GeneOr worse yet how a numbers runner who pretended to be a gangster - Alex Pompez - got elected.

PaulDrake
03-01-2006, 01:54 PM
Or worse yet how a numbers runner who pretended to be a gangster - Alex Pompez - got elected. Didn't you read what that genius from the NY Daily News wrote: "Although the majority of baseball fans today probably never heard of any of these 17 new Hall of Famers, there is every reason to believe the committee got it right." Yeah right Mr. Madden.

palehozenychicty
03-01-2006, 02:06 PM
Didn't you read what that genius from the NY Daily News wrote: "Although the majority of baseball fans today probably never heard of any of these 17 new Hall of Famers, there is every reason to believe the committee got it right." Yeah right Mr. Madden.

Madden is one of many self-absorbed, yankee-kissing columnists in the dailies.the worst is lupica, ny's moronotti.

Vernam
03-02-2006, 07:11 PM
More fuel for the fire in today's NY Times (free registration required): http://tinyurl.com/hg7lj, in a story whose headline is "Hall Still Has Time to Honor Buck O'Neil," by George Vecsey. Says some nice things about Minnie, but doesn't really champion him. Points out that the KC fans and congressmen are making enough of a stink that MLB might be forced to reconsider O'Neil.

To which I respond: Any chance of the Sox Army stepping up for Minnie? If Pods could outscore Jeter in the All Star vote, surely we could capitalize on the team's new visibility to help keep Minnie's name in the HoF mix.

From the article:

Vincent defended the decision that the 12 voters would not discuss their ballots, but he praised O'Neil and Minoso. "You'd have to put a lot of weight on Citizen Buck," Vincent said, adding, "I was surprised Buck didn't make it." Um, I missed the part where he praised Minnie. :angry:

Vernam

PaleHoseGeorge
03-02-2006, 07:22 PM
Okay, so how much more time must lapse before the entire world finally wakes up and realizes what a complete buffoon Faye Vincent truly is?

He's not fair. He's not smart. He's not even a very good baseball historian.

Vindictive? I think the record is becoming more clear with every passing year.

:mad:

ode to veeck
03-03-2006, 11:01 AM
**** Faye Vincent
**** Bill Madden
**** the HOF joke selection processes

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: