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NonetheLoaiza
02-24-2006, 09:20 PM
Mark Buehrle has 15 more career wins (85) than Kerry Wood (70), despite becoming a full-time starter 3 years after Kerry Wood's rookie year. Most fans will remember Kerry Wood for his 20 K game against the Astros...in 1998.

I was listening to MJH today, and they mentioned that Wood has only 70 career wins, and it got me to thinking. Now, this could get the Who Cares? tag, but just thinking about that stat is kind of weird when you think about who gets more headlines in the paper (until this past offseason). By all accounts that the Trib throws at people, Kerry Wood sounds like he's got 150 wins. Just got me thinking about it, and thought I would share.

Feel free to discuss, add your own Sox-Cubs DYK, etc...

MUsoxfan
02-24-2006, 09:33 PM
I don't understand the Cubsessed. We win the World Series and have gotten a really fair shake in the media for a pretty good length of time. That should make all of us put any thoughts of the Cubs on the back-burner. Meanwhile, there are people on this board that just won't give it up.

You know it's bad when the Tribune contacts WSI to bitch because we're hotlinking Cub images from their site.

Enjoy the Sox, but the Cubsession seems to be worse than ever.

NonetheLoaiza
02-24-2006, 09:39 PM
I don't understand the Cubsessed. We win the World Series and have gotten a really fair shake in the media for a pretty good length of time. That should make all of us put any thoughts of the Cubs on the back-burner. Meanwhile, there are people on this board that just won't give it up.

You know it's bad when the Tribune contacts WSI to bitch because we're hotlinking Cub images from their site.

Enjoy the Sox, but the Cubsession seems to be worse than ever.
I think you'll find that over most, if not all my posts, you cannot say that I'm Cubsessed. I made one post of a fact that I found interesting. I could try and find another pitcher to compare Buehrle if you want me to, but I thought, upon hearing how many wins Kerry Wood has, how amazing to me that it sounds that Buehrle has 15 more wins than he does. I didn't start this thread as a dig at the Cubs, just an observation I came across. It's pretty unfair to call me Cubsessed when my past posts in no way reflect that.

EDIT: Buehrle has 1 more career win than Derek Lowe, who started his career in 97, and 13 more than Carl Pavano, who started in 1998. Two pitchers that probably grabbed the headlines a bit more than Buehrle in the past.

MUsoxfan
02-24-2006, 09:50 PM
I think you'll find that over most, if not all my posts, you cannot say that I'm Cubsessed. I made one post of a fact that I found interesting. I could try and find another pitcher to compare Buehrle if you want me to, but I thought, upon hearing how many wins Kerry Wood has, how amazing to me that it sounds that Buehrle has 15 more wins than he does. I didn't start this thread as a dig at the Cubs, just an observation I came across. It's pretty unfair to call me Cubsessed when my past posts in no way reflect that.

My rant wasn't directed at only you, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back. All the forums here are littered with Cubsession and I can't figure out why.

Also....Buehrle has alot more wins than most pitchers in his age group because he stays healthy. He also has more wins than guys like Jeff Weaver, Jarrod Washburn and the same amount of wins as Chris Carpenter

NonetheLoaiza
02-24-2006, 09:55 PM
Also....Buehrle has alot more wins than most pitchers in his age group because he stays healthy. He also has more wins than guys like Jeff Weaver, Jarrod Washburn and the same amount of wins as Chris Carpenter

Which was my point in the end. Alot of other guys get alot of press, and Buehrle has been as steady and as durable as they come. I'm a little tired of the obsession with the Cubs too, but the teams are only 9 miles from eachother, and when comparing players, it's somewhat instinctive to look at the team right nearby.

TDog
02-24-2006, 10:51 PM
Did you know Kerry Wood will finish his career with less wins than Wilbur Wood, whose first 20-win season followed a 20-save season? In fact, Wilbur Wood led his team in saves for each of the three seasons before he became a starter who won 20 games every year until he was hit in the knee with a line drive.

Did you know that Wilbur Wood was a better pitcher than Kerry Wood will ever be?

1951Campbell
02-24-2006, 10:59 PM
I don't understand the Cubsessed. We win the World Series and have gotten a really fair shake in the media for a pretty good length of time. That should make all of us put any thoughts of the Cubs on the back-burner. Meanwhile, there are people on this board that just won't give it up.

You know it's bad when the Tribune contacts WSI to bitch because we're hotlinking Cub images from their site.

Enjoy the Sox, but the Cubsession seems to be worse than ever.

I don't understand the obsessed-with-the-Cubsessed. Often here we are advised to ignore pure crapola, such as the "musings" of the Windsock or Dayn Perry. Yet when one post mentions the Cubs, sure enough, there are 17 tsk-tsking posts wagging fingers at us to never mention "them" again. Sometimes I think the lady doth protest too much.

I guess Spring Training will cure all.

TheDarkGundam
02-24-2006, 11:10 PM
*Gasp!* There's already been 7 posts (not counting this one) and no one has said something to the effect of "Yeah, but you didn't count simulated wins!"

CanBuehrleWait
02-24-2006, 11:12 PM
Which was my point in the end. Alot of other guys get alot of press, and Buehrle has been as steady and as durable as they come. I'm a little tired of the obsession with the Cubs too, but the teams are only 9 miles from eachother, and when comparing players, it's somewhat instinctive to look at the team right nearby.

It's ok. That sig is sweet so you can have a pass.... for now....:cool:

MUsoxfan
02-25-2006, 12:50 AM
Yet when one post mentions the Cubs, sure enough, there are 17 tsk-tsking posts wagging fingers at us to never mention "them" again. Sometimes I think the lady doth protest too much.



Do you mean one post in the 9pm hour on 2/24/06? There's an entire subculture on this site that devotes their lives to Cubsessivness. I know I'm not alone on this feeling. First and foremost this is a Sox site. There are Cub-bashing sites out there that may or may not be used by these individuals apart from this Sox site. I hope that one day soon on WSI there can be a 24 hour period where there's not a Cubsessive post out there.
Instead there are threads here about how somebody in a Cub hat made fun of Podsednik at a 7-11. The Tribune is lying to the world about bleachers that none of us are gonna sit in. Wood and Prior suck. Grilling columnist "schills" when they have something good to say about the northside team. Phony Cub schedule promotions.
Look, I'm the farthest thing from a Cub fan but things are just getting out of control. Many people are making Sox fans as a whole look even worse because even when we win the WORLD SERIES, there's still some inferiority complex. Way to reinforce stereotypes

patbooyah
02-25-2006, 01:03 AM
isn't rivalry part of sports? isn't that what makes things fun? who cares if people mention the cubs? many would say that they are our biggest rivals, and that we are theirs. granted, we don't play in the same division/league, but there is no denying the mutual dislike.

to me, jumping on people every time they mention the cubs/trying to pretend they don't exist is just as bad as making every post about them.

i think it is fair to say that most people wouldn't immediately know that buerhle has more wins than wood. it is a valid point. it hardly counts as "cub bashing." cut the guy some slack.

Banix12
02-25-2006, 02:29 AM
I don't really think you can declare that just because Buehrle has more wins that he is the better pitcher. Certainly one could come up with other relevant arguments but I don't think you can count difference in wins as one of those reasons.

It really isn't Kerry Wood's fault he was drafted by a team that is competely inept when it comes to run production, at least during his tenure. I can think of plenty of times where Kerry was on the losing end of 2-0 or 1-0 losses because the Cubs pathetic offense couldn't muster together a hit. Or times when the cubs bullpen, which has also been largely inept in his tenure, blew the win for him. How many times did Kyle Farnsworth cost him a win?

Kerry's low win total isn't evidence of his overall failure as a pitcher. It's evidence of the Cubs overall failure to put together consistantly good offense and a good bullpen. I think if you put Kerry on a decent squad he could have probably gotten an extra 10-20 wins in his career.

Certainly though the fact that Kerry Wood in 7 seasons (remember that he missed all of 1999) has only made 174 starts while Buehrle has started 172 in six seasons, only 5 of which he was a full time starter, doesn't bode well for Kerry's durability. And his inability to stay on the field is something he has to take the blame for thanks to his poor mechanics. He has lost over two years worth of starts to the disabled list.

Steelrod
02-25-2006, 07:35 AM
Did you know Kerry Wood will finish his career with less wins than Wilbur Wood, whose first 20-win season followed a 20-save season? In fact, Wilbur Wood led his team in saves for each of the three seasons before he became a starter who won 20 games every year until he was hit in the knee with a line drive.

Did you know that Wilbur Wood was a better pitcher than Kerry Wood will ever be?
But Wilbur wasn't a sure hall-of-famer from the day he first took to the mound!

fquaye149
02-25-2006, 07:42 AM
I don't really think you can declare that just because Buehrle has more wins that he is the better pitcher. Certainly one could come up with other relevant arguments but I don't think you can count difference in wins as one of those reasons.

It really isn't Kerry Wood's fault he was drafted by a team that is competely inept when it comes to run production, at least during his tenure. I can think of plenty of times where Kerry was on the losing end of 2-0 or 1-0 losses because the Cubs pathetic offense couldn't muster together a hit. Or times when the cubs bullpen, which has also been largely inept in his tenure, blew the win for him. How many times did Kyle Farnsworth cost him a win?

Kerry's low win total isn't evidence of his overall failure as a pitcher. It's evidence of the Cubs overall failure to put together consistantly good offense and a good bullpen. I think if you put Kerry on a decent squad he could have probably gotten an extra 10-20 wins in his career.

Certainly though the fact that Kerry Wood in 7 seasons (remember that he missed all of 1999) has only made 174 starts while Buehrle has started 172 in six seasons, only 5 of which he was a full time starter, doesn't bode well for Kerry's durability. And his inability to stay on the field is something he has to take the blame for thanks to his poor mechanics. He has lost over two years worth of starts to the disabled list.
Kerry Wood digs his own grave with his sky high walk numbers

TornLabrum
02-25-2006, 09:25 AM
isn't rivalry part of sports? isn't that what makes things fun? who cares if people mention the cubs? many would say that they are our biggest rivals, and that we are theirs. granted, we don't play in the same division/league, but there is no denying the mutual dislike.

to me, jumping on people every time they mention the cubs/trying to pretend they don't exist is just as bad as making every post about them.

i think it is fair to say that most people wouldn't immediately know that buerhle has more wins than wood. it is a valid point. it hardly counts as "cub bashing." cut the guy some slack.

Pat, my problem (personally, not as a mod) with the flubsessiveness is that we finally won it all. They haven't. They don't have a snowball's chance in hell on the Fourth of July of doing it this year, and who knows for how long after that.

No matter what they say, no matter what they do, we have a World Series Championship to fall back on. That puts us above any of this petty bickering. If after we invoke the trump card the little morons still want to play, all we have to do is say, "Thank you for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Come back when you've won a World Series."

Until then, my target when I throw any barbs will be the Tribune Co., the rag it publishes, and the 50,000 watt rest home they use to promote their sister enterprise while subtly bashing the Sox. Beyond that, the Cubs are irrelevant for the time being.

DumpJerry
02-25-2006, 09:39 AM
Did you know that Wilbur Wood was a better pitcher than Kerry Wood will ever be?
WW was better than a lot of pitchers today.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-25-2006, 09:50 AM
WW was better than a lot of pitchers today.

Now that the steroids era is over, I suspect the pendulum is swinging back towards emphasizing quality pitching towards winning. (See "White Sox, Chicago," 2005).

Knuckleballers, along with sidearm and submarine pitchers, were far more common before steroid freaks turned the game into homerun derby. I think we'll see more Wilbur Wood type pitchers in the near future.

TaylorStSox
02-25-2006, 10:18 AM
IT'S NOT A RIVALRY. We're not even in the same division. We play 6 times a year. Hell, those games are practically exhibition games put on by the MLB to generate income. (I hate interleague play)

You're rivals with the teams in your division.

TornLabrum
02-25-2006, 10:27 AM
IT'S NOT A RIVALRY. We're not even in the same division. We play 6 times a year. Hell, those games are practically exhibition games put on by the MLB to generate income. (I hate interleague play)

You're rivals with the teams in your division.

Oh, there is definitely a corporate rivalry for the bucks of casual fans. The Sox would rather be making that money than seeing the Cubs take the lion's share of it. And there certainly has been a rivalry among the fans. I can remember as a kid arguing the relative merits of Luis Aparicio vs. Ernie Banks or Pete Ward vs. Ron Santo with Tim McGrath who lived across the street and was a Cubs fan.

But until the Cubs actually win something the fan rivalry, at least imho, is over. Cubs fans have nothing to retaliate with anymore.

NonetheLoaiza
02-25-2006, 10:29 AM
IT'S NOT A RIVALRY. We're not even in the same division. We play 6 times a year. Hell, those games are practically exhibition games put on by the MLB to generate income. (I hate interleague play)

You're rivals with the teams in your division.

I wouldn't say it's not a rivalry at all. Is it far less important than games against the Twins, Indians, etc? Absolutely, 100%. But, to say it's not a rivalry, I don't think is accurate. There is a reason that Sox-Cubs games sell out almost the minute they are put on sale. I guess you could say it's a rivalry amongst the fans, not necessarily the teams.

Captian Ron
02-25-2006, 11:10 AM
:burly I think mark would say who cares. :whocares

patbooyah
02-25-2006, 01:24 PM
Pat, my problem (personally, not as a mod) with the flubsessiveness is that we finally won it all. They haven't. They don't have a snowball's chance in hell on the Fourth of July of doing it this year, and who knows for how long after that.

No matter what they say, no matter what they do, we have a World Series Championship to fall back on. That puts us above any of this petty bickering. If after we invoke the trump card the little morons still want to play, all we have to do is say, "Thank you for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you. Come back when you've won a World Series."

Until then, my target when I throw any barbs will be the Tribune Co., the rag it publishes, and the 50,000 watt rest home they use to promote their sister enterprise while subtly bashing the Sox. Beyond that, the Cubs are irrelevant for the time being.

Yes, Sir. I totally agree with you. To me, this seemed like a thread that took issue the tribune rag. Prior to last season (no pun intended), you would have thought the Sox had absolutely no studs in their starting rotation. I think that what the original post hints at is that the press coverage of these two teams has lofted northside pitchers to undeserved heights. that's all.

as far as the rivalry thing goes... i come in contact with way more cubs fans than i do twins/indians fans. i argue/debate with them much more often, and that's probably where the rival attitude comes from.

NSSoxFan
02-25-2006, 01:58 PM
Question for the admins and mods:

How close have you come to banning all forms of Flub talk?

TomBradley72
02-25-2006, 02:21 PM
IT'S NOT A RIVALRY.

From dictionary.com:
ri·val·ry (rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifvhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifl-rhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif)
n. The state or condition of competition or antagonism.

Sure seems like a rivalry to me. :cool:

jdm2662
02-25-2006, 02:28 PM
Mark Buehrle has 15 more career wins (85) than Kerry Wood (70), despite becoming a full-time starter 3 years after Kerry Wood's rookie year. Most fans will remember Kerry Wood for his 20 K game against the Astros...in 1998.

I was listening to MJH today, and they mentioned that Wood has only 70 career wins, and it got me to thinking. Now, this could get the Who Cares? tag, but just thinking about that stat is kind of weird when you think about who gets more headlines in the paper (until this past offseason). By all accounts that the Trib throws at people, Kerry Wood sounds like he's got 150 wins. Just got me thinking about it, and thought I would share.

Feel free to discuss, add your own Sox-Cubs DYK, etc...

Yes, I did know this. I also knew that Kerry Wood has the same season high in wins as Danny Wright. None of that matters anymore. We have a World Series championship and they dont.

TaquitoElGoocho
02-25-2006, 02:31 PM
IT'S NOT A RIVALRY. You're rivals with the teams in your division.
Fully analyzing the Sox-Scrubs rivalry, imo, merits a dissertation. For me and I think many others who live or lived south, the rivalry goes beyond the teams, which are symbols of the constant struggle between the north and south sides, the former regarding itself as far superior than the latter. Having lived my entire life in and around the city, ˝ south and ˝ north, I’ve encountered so many people living north who have are completely ignorant of the south side. Many have NEVER been south of the Loop or, if they happen to be relatively open-minded, Comiskey. Here’s a tiny sampling of my interactions with no-brainer north siders:

- A job interviewer noted my south side address and asked if I would be “safe” driving to work if offered the job. I told him my “bullet proof” windows should keep me safe. He thought I was serious.
- Co-worker said to me, “other than Hyde Park, I’ve never really thought there was any culture on the south side.” The balls….
- Co-worker freaked out when she received a jury summons for 26th & Cal. Had husband follow her in a separate car in case “something” happened to her.
- I tell a co-worker I’m considering buying in the Pilsen/Heart of Chicago neighborhood. Her response: “Eww.” I asked if she’d ever been to the ‘hood. You know what the response was.

And honestly, how many times have you small talked with an out-of-town business contact and been asked, “so, you must be a Sox fan, huh?” Until last fall, all I ever heard was the opposite. I admit my skin is thin, but it’s been worn down over so many years that I notice even the most subtle, sometimes innocent, digs. Those who have a “Cubsession” or “northsidesession” are entirely justified, in my opinion. For me, the White Sox World Series win was a HUGE step toward equalizing the two sides of Chicago. Condos selling for $300,000+ in Bridgeport and McKinely Park is another. I guess this was a dissertation :tongue: Go White Sox!! WS champs in 2006!!

peeonwrigley
02-25-2006, 02:31 PM
Wasn't this particular forum designed in part to make jokes at the Cubs' expense? I understand that some are annoyed by the constant discussion of them... but just don't read the thread.

The Cubs are a part of Chicago just the same as the White Sox are; so most of us are faced with some sort of exposure to them. We all work with Cub fans, go to school with them, are friends with them, live with them, etc... They share the same newspapers and airwaves as the White Sox.

Is it as important a rivalry as the Twins, Indians, Tigers, or even any AL team? Of course not, but I don't have a daily give and take with fans of those teams. Its a fun rivalry. Its a local rivalry. And we have one hell of an upper hand. Enjoy it, or ignore it.

TDog
02-25-2006, 04:20 PM
Even non-baseball fans can see there is a rivalry, even though the teams don't compete in the standings. There has been at least from the 1960s.

Cubs fans have always considered people wearing Sox gear in public to be pathetic, ostensibly because they were doomed to failure, ignoring, of course, that one could make the same assessment of Cubs fans. In the late 1960s, at least the Cubs were closer. Later the Cubs came closer to getting to the World Series after winning their division than the Sox did in their playoff appearances. The Cubs answered 1983 with their own run in 1984. The Sox went three and out in 2000, but the Cubs were five outs away in 2003.

Now the Sox have raised the bar. The Cubs would have to win 100 regular season games and go 11-0 in the postseason to top what the Sox did in 2005, and even then they still couldn't end up with anything more than a World Series trophy.

Now Cubs fans look down on Sox fans because we are not enjoying their little party -- a party has been prepackaged and marketed to them with a fantasy of tradition by a corporation that scalps their own tickets and won't provide even overpriced parking to make it convenient for people to get to the games because that would, um, ruin the atmosphere.

This is where I feel the need to direct an obscenity at the Cubs fans who have given me crap all my life.

SOXSINCE'70
02-25-2006, 04:58 PM
Did you know that Wilbur Wood was a better pitcher than Kerry Wood will ever be?

YES!! :yup: :thumbsup:

Banix12
02-25-2006, 06:59 PM
Kerry Wood digs his own grave with his sky high walk numbers

He doesn't give up a lot of hits so it doesn't effect him too much. His career WHIP is only 1.26. For the comparison given in this thread that is only .03 higher than Buehrle's career WHIP. Buehrle gives up a lot more hits, Kerry gives up more walks and they seem to basically even out.

I think you can compare him best to Contreras because both give up walks in bunches. They are largely the same in the fact that when they are off on their games they will give up a lot of walks and get into trouble but when they are on they are dominant pitchers who can completely shut down an offense. And despite a lot of opinions here, Wood is actually on his game more often than he is off it.

And anyway, those games he tends to walk a ton he does lose most of the time. So those games are pretty well represented in his win-loss record. What isn't represented are the times he lost because his team failed him.

Quick example. I saw this figure. In 2004 Wood made 22 starts and finished with an 8-9 record. Looks pretty pathetic. However, in 7 of his starts he either received a loss or no decision even though he threw 7 or more innings and gave up 3 runs or less. If he wins those 7 quality starts his Win-Loss record is 15-6.

I'm not a big fan of Wood but I'm not going to belittle him as a pitcher just because he plays for the team on the northside like some do here. The guy can dominate, he just can't stay healthy.

I'm also not going to punish him for the hype that surrounded him. That was cubs and tribune marketing and largely out of his control. Certainly the media and fans have been overzealous in their praise of him, but that doesn't make him a bad pitcher.

Daver
02-25-2006, 07:32 PM
Question for the admins and mods:

How close have you come to banning all forms of Flub talk?

It gets closer every day.

We made this forum to keep it from infecting the rest of the site, but it has not solved the problem.