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SOXPHILE
02-21-2006, 04:19 PM
Dave Van Dyke is on with B & B, and they are confronting him on how he said he would vote Sosa into the HOF. Good to hear. They are really letting him have it. It's almost surreal how Van Dyke is defending his position. He won't directly answer the question if he believes Sosa cheated, using hyperbole, and the ol' "...well, we don't know for SURE if he did it. Where do you draw the line. Technically, it's not illegal. How can you say this and that, etc...." Unreal. A walking, talking, Cubune apologist. He sounds like one of us, imitating and making fun of Cubune employees. Scary thing is, he's not. He's really saying this stuff.

D. TODD
02-21-2006, 07:15 PM
Dave Van Dyke is on with B & B, and they are confronting him on how he said he would vote Sosa into the HOF. Good to hear. They are really letting him have it. It's almost surreal how Van Dyke is defending his position. He won't directly answer the question if he believes Sosa cheated, using hyperbole, and the ol' "...well, we don't know for SURE if he did it. Where do you draw the line. Technically, it's not illegal. How can you say this and that, etc...." Unreal. A walking, talking, Cubune apologist. He sounds like one of us, imitating and making fun of Cubune employees. Scary thing is, he's not. He's really saying this stuff. I'm no fan of Sosa, but without a failed test he is a hall of famer without a doubt. Not a first ballot guy, o.k., but he will get in.

voodoochile
02-21-2006, 07:20 PM
I'm no fan of Sosa, but without a failed test he is a hall of famer without a doubt. Not a first ballot guy, o.k., but he will get in.

Unfortunately that is probably true, but we actually do know that Sosa was a cheat. No, we don't have difinitive proof he cheated with steroids, but he did cork his bat.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2006, 07:25 PM
Unfortunately that is probably true, but we actually do know that Sosa was a cheat. No, we don't have difinitive proof he cheated with steroids, but he did cork his bat.
Yep. Scammy is a convicted cheat. It seems to me the burden of proof Scammy didn't take roids and thus worthy of HOF consideration should be on Scammy, not MLB. We KNOW Scammy cheated. It's not even up for debate... except amongst the deep thinkers at the Chicago Cubune, of course.

D. TODD
02-21-2006, 07:28 PM
Unfortunately that is probably true, but we actually do know that Sosa was a cheat. No, we don't have difinitive proof he cheated with steroids, but he did cork his bat. Corking your bat or scuffing the ball (Gaylord Perry) has never been a offense that would keep a player out of the hall of fame.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2006, 07:32 PM
Corking your bat or scuffing the ball (Gaylord Perry) has never been a offense that would keep a player out of the hall of fame.

Corking a bat won't keep you out of the hall. Being the sort of cheat that would take steroids certainly would be.

Scammy is a cheat. A convicted one. You and I might get the benefit of the doubt about cheating. Scammy doesn't.

As a cheat, Scammy doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Unless you're just making excuses for Scammy... like the Cubune, for example.

DrCrawdad
02-21-2006, 07:35 PM
Yep. Scammy is a convicted cheat. It seems to me the burden of proof Scammy didn't take roids and thus worthy of HOF consideration should be on Scammy, not MLB. We KNOW Scammy cheated. It's not even up for debate... except amongst the deep thinkers at the Chicago Cubune, of course.




There is another person outside the Cubune who also won't say that he believes Sammy used steroids and he won't say that Sammy cheated with the corked bat. Who is that man?

http://images.radcity.net/5149/1132912.jpg

voodoochile
02-21-2006, 07:36 PM
Corking your bat or scuffing the ball (Gaylord Perry) has never been a offense that would keep a player out of the hall of fame.

Oh I know and I said as much in my last post, I was merely commenting on any defense of ShamME* which does not admit he cheated at least once in his life, even if he only cheated by mistake. :rolleyes:

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2006, 07:40 PM
There is another person outside the Cubune who also won't say that he believes Sammy used steroids and he won't say that Sammy cheated with the corked bat. Who is that man?

http://images.radcity.net/5149/1132912.jpg

Some people are willing to believe anything.

:corker

TomBradley72
02-21-2006, 07:41 PM
I'm no fan of Sosa, but without a failed test he is a hall of famer without a doubt. Not a first ballot guy, o.k., but he will get in.

I don't agree...this isn't a court of law...it's a bunch of sportswriters voting for who they think deserves to be inducted. There is NO way I could ever mark a ballot for Sosa, Bonds or McGwire. Just watching him balloon up (and then down) physically, combined with his refusal to be tested, the corked bat incident, how he fell apart within 1 year of scrutiiny on steroids, and the overall way he played the game....I couldn't vote for him. Phil Hersh has called it 100% right on this one.

The media thinks time passing will help Sammy. It won't. Because as the years pass (and as players post "non steroid" results year after year)....the sham of his accomplishments will be magnified.

CashMan
02-21-2006, 07:45 PM
There is sworn testimony that Bonds took steroids, and people say there is no proof he took them.

Dick Allen
02-21-2006, 07:50 PM
There is sworn testimony that Bonds took steroids, and people say there is no proof he took them.Oh, but he didn't know they were steroids.

D. TODD
02-21-2006, 07:53 PM
I don't agree...this isn't a court of law...it's a bunch of sportswriters voting for who they think deserves to be inducted. There is NO way I could ever mark a ballot for Sosa, Bonds or McGwire. Just watching him balloon up (and then down) physically, combined with his refusal to be tested, the corked bat incident, how he fell apart within 1 year of scrutiiny on steroids, and the overall way he played the game....I couldn't vote for him. Phil Hersh has called it 100% right on this one.

The media thinks time passing will help Sammy. It won't. Because as the years pass (and as players post "non steroid" results year after year)....the sham of his accomplishments will be magnified. I would be happy to see Sammy snubbed, but only rightfully so. The sportswriters should be basing their votes on facts. Not their opinions, although it looks painfully obvious that Sosa juiced I don't want voters speculating on any player (that is a slippery slope). Just vote on the facts and make an unbiased decision. If they do that there is no way he misses the hall. I just hope they do the same for Frank Thomas because their is no way he misses either.

veeter
02-21-2006, 07:57 PM
I'm sick of reading, "well,we don't have a positive test or technically we don't have proof." B.S. The proof was right in front of our eyes. These guys body-types changed!!!! What, do they have to die of cancer before we have confirmation? In this day in age, I feel smart fans and writers are educated on the issue and have the right to use the "it's obvious" argument. Mark McGwire "technically" didn't admit steroid use at the hearings, but he proved his guilt none-the-less. Ban them all from the game, I say.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-21-2006, 08:22 PM
I would be happy to see Sammy snubbed, but only rightfully so. The sportswriters should be basing their votes on facts. Not their opinions, although it looks painfully obvious that Sosa juiced I don't want voters speculating on any player (that is a slippery slope). Just vote on the facts and make an unbiased decision. If they do that there is no way he misses the hall...
Wow. Here the facts, the ones you won't own up to.

Sosa was caught cheating with a corked bat.

Nobody believes Sosa's alibi except those who WANT to believe it.
Nobody is suggesting Sosa go to jail.
Nobody is suggesting Sosa be deprieved of his civil rights.

Nobody is suggesting Sosa should be suspended or fined either.

We're discussing whether Sosa deserves the PRIVILEGE of entering the hall of fame. As a cheat -- and a liar with a laughable excuse for his cheating -- the question of whether he cheated taking steroids is relevant. The burden of proof that he didn't cheat isn't on baseball because we're talking about a PRIVILEGE!

Only people who believe in fairytales would allow Scammy into the hall of fame based on what Scammy has said and done.

:corker

Mickster
02-21-2006, 08:42 PM
The part that truly pushed me over the edge is showing up before Congress with a Lawyer (translator)!

http://shiftyeye.com/images/madness/snl/morris.jpg
Way to go, Sammy!

McCuddy
02-22-2006, 03:08 PM
Just vote on the facts and make an unbiased decision.

Unfortunately, that leaves a lot of responsibility on the sportswriters. They'll have to research facts, and those don't sell as many papers.

MarySwiss
02-22-2006, 03:16 PM
I'm sick of reading, "well,we don't have a positive test or technically we don't have proof." B.S. The proof was right in front of our eyes. These guys body-types changed!!!! What, do they have to die of cancer before we have confirmation? In this day in age, I feel smart fans and writers are educated on the issue and have the right to use the "it's obvious" argument. Mark McGwire "technically" didn't admit steroid use at the hearings, but he proved his guilt none-the-less. Ban them all from the game, I say.

Exactly! And going on a diet or being injured doesn't usually significantly reduce the size of your head, either.

CubKilla
02-22-2006, 03:21 PM
There is NO way I could ever mark a ballot for Sosa, Bonds or McGwire.

While I definitely see your point from a fan's perspective, let's not forget that Bonds and McGwire were HR-hitters before androstenedione and flax-seed oil.

ShamME, on the other hand, :rolleyes: ......

Ol' No. 2
02-22-2006, 03:23 PM
Wow. Here the facts, the ones you won't own up to.

Sosa was caught cheating with a corked bat.

Nobody believes Sosa's alibi except those who WANT to believe it.
Nobody is suggesting Sosa go to jail.
Nobody is suggesting Sosa be deprieved of his civil rights.

Nobody is suggesting Sosa should be suspended or fined either.

We're discussing whether Sosa deserves the PRIVILEGE of entering the hall of fame. As a cheat -- and a liar with a laughable excuse for his cheating -- the question of whether he cheated taking steroids is relevant. The burden of proof that he didn't cheat isn't on baseball because we're talking about a PRIVILEGE!

Only people who believe in fairytales would allow Scammy into the hall of fame based on what Scammy has said and done.

IMO, making the argument on "cheating" is a mistake. Corked bats and scuffed balls are also "cheating", but those would never be viewed as a disqualification from the HOF. While steroid use is certainly cheating, it's also a lot more, and it's the "more" part that is the crux of the matter. The difference is that steroid use is also an offense against the game itself in a way that corked bats are not.

History and the record books occupy a place in baseball unlike any other sport. It's the chain that bridges generations of baseball players and fans. Steroid use has cheapened one of the most hallowed of baseball records and tainted an entire era. It's why Bonds should not get in the HOF regardless of his previous accomplishments. For that these guys should all be banned every bit much as Pete Rose. Not that that's going to happen, but I'll settle for not getting into the HOF.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-22-2006, 06:19 PM
IMO, making the argument on "cheating" is a mistake. Corked bats and scuffed balls are also "cheating", but those would never be viewed as a disqualification from the HOF. While steroid use is certainly cheating, it's also a lot more, and it's the "more" part that is the crux of the matter. The difference is that steroid use is also an offense against the game itself in a way that corked bats are not...

Scammy's corked bat speaks directly to his frame of mind to cheat using steroids. It's Scammy's corked bat that separates the suspicions of HIS steroid use from the suspicions we might reasonably have about anyone else.

Scammy will cheat to get an advantage -- corked bat or otherwise. THAT'S the difference, and that's why the burden of proof showing he didn't cheat using steroids is on him, not baseball. Does this make it clearer?

No ballplayer has the right to be in the hall of fame. It's a PRIVILEGE to be granted by others. Just ask Pete Rose and Joe Jackson.

IlliniSox4Life
02-22-2006, 06:39 PM
There is no way that Sammy belongs in the hall. There is a long list of people who either aren't in the hall or are not allowed to be in the hall that should be before Sosa.

The good news is that McGwire is coming soon (next year I believe?) for HoF voting. He will not get in first ballot, and I seriously doubt he will after that. This will set a precendent for guys like Sosa/Bonds who wont be up for at least 5 years when the whole steroid controversy won't be fresh. If McGwire wasn't up next year, Sosa and Bonds would have the benefit of letting this whole thing blow over for at least 5 years without a precedent being set.

MarySwiss
02-22-2006, 06:42 PM
Scammy's corked bat speaks directly to his frame of mind to cheat using steroids. It's Scammy's corked bat that separates the suspicions of HIS steroid use from the suspicions we might reasonably have about anyone else.

Scammy will cheat to get an advantage -- corked bat or otherwise. THAT'S the difference, and that's why the burden of proof showing he didn't cheat using steroids is on him, not baseball. Does this make it clearer?

No ballplayer has the right to be in the hall of fame. It's a PRIVILEGE to be granted by others. Just ask Pete Rose and Joe Jackson.

This is an excellent point. If Sosa had only used a corked bat, that in and of itself would qualify him as a cheater, but might not be enough to keep him from HOF consideration; other cheaters have gotten in after all. But I agree with PHG; it should be taken into consideration in conjunction with all the other "Sammy" crap incidents. I started to list these, but I will only allot a certain amount of my time to this clown, and such a list would take up way too much.

But one last point: Everything Sosa "accomplished," he accomplished after he became a "slugger." If he had remained the same guy he was when he was with the Sox initially, would anyone even be talking about him as a HOF candidate? For that matter, would he even have been in baseball as long as he was?

Ol' No. 2
02-22-2006, 06:57 PM
Scammy's corked bat speaks directly to his frame of mind to cheat using steroids. It's Scammy's corked bat that separates the suspicions of HIS steroid use from the suspicions we might reasonably have about anyone else.

Scammy will cheat to get an advantage -- corked bat or otherwise. THAT'S the difference, and that's why the burden of proof showing he didn't cheat using steroids is on him, not baseball. Does this make it clearer?

No ballplayer has the right to be in the hall of fame. It's a PRIVILEGE to be granted by others. Just ask Pete Rose and Joe Jackson.Wait. I thought he used the corked bat by accident.

I still recall the Sox-Cubs series right after that in which I saw a doofus Cubs fan holding up a sign proudly proclaiming "We believe you, Sammy!" I tried to be nice. I really did. But I couldn't help laughing in her face.

I see what you mean about the corked bat being a part of the overall picture, and it does corroborate the view of Sosa as someone who views his need for fan adulation as above anything else. But often the discussion about Sosa becomes more about "cheating" and less about the larger issues of steroids, which is where the focus should be.

Edit: And FWIW, when you talk about burden of proof, implicit in that is the threshold. In civil court it's preponderance of evidence. While this isn't a court of law, there's certainly lots of circumstantial evidence for Sosa's steroid use with nothing on the other side.

downstairs
02-22-2006, 07:13 PM
The sportswriters should be basing their votes on facts. Not their opinions,

Huh?

No disrespect, but the Hall of Fame is all opinion. There are no "facts". You don't have to hit X home runs to be eligible, don't need X wins to be eligible.

You can do nothing but vote on your opinion. And any sportswriter that votes for Bonds, McGwire, Plamero, Sosa, and the like should be fired from their publication.

Steroids hurt baseball quite a bit. The best thing baseball can do right now is to make sure these idiots never see the HOF and are eventually forgotten forever.

downstairs
02-22-2006, 07:16 PM
While this isn't a court of law, there's certainly lots of circumstantial evidence for Sosa's steroid use with nothing on the other side.

You make a good point, and this is what B&B brought up. "Circumstantial evidence" is evidence. People get convicted of murder everyday on circumstantial evidence. It is perfectly valid and accepted, as long as you analyze it correctly.

You don't need to be caught with a murder weapon, or even have witnesses to be convicted of a crime.

If it smells like steroids, sounds like steroids, looks like steroids... guess what, you're on steroids.

Daver
02-22-2006, 07:27 PM
Huh?



You can do nothing but vote on your opinion. And any sportswriter that votes for Bonds, McGwire, Plamero, Sosa, and the like should be fired from their publication.


More than a third of the people that vote for the baseball HOF are no longer active journalists, they work for no one, they are merely a consortium of small minded old men.

That is one of the reasons the BB HOF is a joke as far as I am concerned.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-22-2006, 07:55 PM
Wait. I thought he used the corked bat by accident.

:wink:

:corker

Brian26
02-22-2006, 09:22 PM
Corking a bat won't keep you out of the hall. Being the sort of cheat that would take steroids certainly would be.

Corking a bat won't necessarily keep him out of the Hall, but getting caught doing it certainly doesn't help his cause. Can anyone think of anybody currently in the Hall who was caught cheating?

I know Joe Neikro was busted in '87 with the Twins, but was Gaylord Perry ever actually ejected from a game for scuffing the ball or using vaseline? I know it was widely suspected that he cheated, and he even admitted that he cheated in an interviews, but was he ever caught?

KRS1
02-22-2006, 09:57 PM
I hope all the voters remember the SI Rick Reilly interview a few years back when they cast their vote. I still can't help but laugh my *** off at the way Sammy 'esploded', and went off like a 6 year old having a hissy fit.



Here's the good part BTW.

"Why are you telling me to do this?" he said. "You don't tell me what to do."


I tried to explain that I wasn't telling him to do it, I was just wondering if he didn't think it would be a good move for him and the game.


"You're not my father!" he said, starting to yell. "Why do you tell me what to do? Are you trying to get me in trouble?"


I asked how he could get in trouble if he wasn't doing anything wrong.


"I don't need to go nowhere," he growled. "I'll wait for the players' association to decide what to do. If they make that decision [to test], I will be first in line."


But didn't he think a star stepping forward now, without being told to be tested....


"This interview is over!" He started looking around for security. "Over, motherf-----!!"

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/life_of_reilly/news/2002/07/02/life_of_reilly/

PaleHoseGeorge
02-22-2006, 10:13 PM
I hope all the voters remember the SI Rick Reilly interview a few years back when they cast their vote. I still can't help but laugh my *** off at the way Sammy 'esploded', and went off like a 6 year old having a hissy fit.

I'll go you one better. Not only did Scammy "esplode" at Reilly, all the Chicago sports mediots got pissed off at Reilly for calling Scammy on his bull****. Now five years later -- after the corked bat, after the "no habla ingles" congressional hearings, and after the incredible shrinking Scammy mystery -- these very same mediots are still making excuses for why they couldn't possibly deny Scammy a vote into the hall of fame.

Enablers one and all. They're STILL eating Scammy's ****!
:o:

:nandrolone
"Paul Sullivan is so stupid, he's still making jokes about Flintstones vitamins!"

Ol' No. 2
02-22-2006, 10:32 PM
I'll go you one better. Not only did Scammy "esplode" at Reilly, all the Chicago sports mediots got pissed off at Reilly for calling Scammy on his bull****. Now five years later -- after the corked bat, after the "no habla ingles" congressional hearings, and after the incredible shrinking Scammy mystery -- these very same mediots are still making excuses for why they couldn't possibly deny Scammy a vote into the hall of fame.

Enablers one and all. They're STILL eating Scammy's ****!
:o:


"Paul Sullivan is so stupid, he's still making jokes about Flintstones vitamins!"Everyone knew at the time what was going on. Sosa came to camp looking like he was inflated by an air hose, and only the most determined ostrich could avoid the obvious. It wasn't just the Chicago mediots, either. But after MLB put the hammer on Steve Wilstein for breaking the Andro story on McGwire, their cojones all shrunk smaller than Sammy's and no one ever mentioned it again, even after Sosa's HR derby display in Milwaukee where he hit baseballs like John Daly tee shots. Until, of course, the Balco story finally broke and suddenly they all noticed the elephant in their living room. But now they can't not vote for these guys without looking like total schmucks for not mentioning it then. Too bad. They do anyway.

cheeses_h_rice
02-22-2006, 10:55 PM
Wait. I thought he used the corked bat by accident.
Of course he did.

The corked bat situation reminds me of someone caught driving drunk. Chances are that person has driven drunk many times before being caught; it's simple odds.

For us to believe that Sham-ME* only used a corked bat one time in his career, we'd have to be gullible enough to believe the following coincidences all converged at exactly the same time:

-Sham-ME* picks up corked bat by accident. As was pointed out at the time, Sham-ME* was incredibly familiar with his bats. He was struggling at the plate at the time, giving him ample reason to try to break out of it by cheating.

-Sham-ME* happens to break his bat on that single at-bat.

-The bat happens to break right where the cork was inserted into the bat.

-A player on the opposite team notices the cork and alerts the umpire.

I recall no effort by any of the crack reporters at the Cubune or Cub-Times to go back and review earlier tapes that season to see if that exact same bat had been used by Sham-ME*. It wouldn't have been a hard thing to do -- quickly scanning to the 4 or 5 ABs a game for the month preceding the corked bat incident, but no one did it.

Also, the Cubs disposed or removed all or most of Sham-ME*'s other bats, IIRC, from the locker room, so MLB couldn't test them for the presence of cork, too.

He cheated. He cheated more than once, but he only got caught once.

Brian26
02-22-2006, 11:12 PM
He cheated. He cheated more than once, but he only got caught once.


No, you're all wrong. He was only trying to entertain the fans during batting practice.

SOecks
02-22-2006, 11:21 PM
I remember in the mid-90's how everyone was talking about Sammie being a huge waste of money for the Cubs and totally overpaid. This was (i believe) after he signed his new contract with them after being traded from the Sox. Then all of a sudden he just starts kicking @$$ in '98. He was a joke to most Cub fans before 98 and all they did was complain about him. Incredible how he want from a laughing stock to a "god" in flub fan minds and right back into a joke so quickly. The fast rise and fall spells roids completely. I'm not angry at him, I'm not jealous of him. I pity him.

CubKilla
02-23-2006, 12:27 AM
I recall no effort by any of the crack reporters at the Cubune or Cub-Times to go back and review earlier tapes that season to see if that exact same bat had been used by Sham-ME*. It wouldn't have been a hard thing to do -- quickly scanning to the 4 or 5 ABs a game for the month preceding the corked bat incident, but no one did it.

Actually, someone did IIRC. Can't recall who it was, but I remember a blurb about it a few days after Corky got caught. In fact, HOU was weighing whether or not they should appeal the game they lost the day before the Tampa Bay corked bat game because it appeared as if a bat very similar to 'Ole Corky was used in ShamME's game winning ground out against the 'Stros.

santo=dorf
03-07-2006, 10:42 PM
Actually, someone did IIRC. Can't recall who it was, but I remember a blurb about it a few days after Corky got caught. In fact, HOU was weighing whether or not they should appeal the game they lost the day before the Tampa Bay corked bat game because it appeared as if a bat very similar to 'Ole Corky was used in ShamME's game winning ground out against the 'Stros.

Yep.

Scammy had a game winning extra inning hit with that bat. I recall my cousin quoting Jeff Kent as saying he'd never seen a ball come off a bat that fast before.

Nellie_Fox
03-08-2006, 01:07 AM
A lot of newspapers have been trending toward not allowing their sportwriters to vote for awards and HOF, seeing it as a conflict of interest, and participating in making news rather than just reporting it.

Now, with the upcoming eligibility of the first of the strongly-suspected (McGwire, Sosa) and proven (Palmeiro) steroid cheaters, I'll bet you'll see a flood of newspapers ordering their reporters to not take part, in order to keep their papers out of the controversy.

slavko
03-08-2006, 10:30 AM
Everyone knew at the time what was going on. Sosa came to camp looking like he was inflated by an air hose, and only the most determined ostrich could avoid the obvious.

Add in the fresh case of severe adult acne and it's incredible that only Sox fans were saying "Hmmmmm?'

Hangar18
03-08-2006, 10:37 AM
I hope all the voters remember the SI Rick Reilly interview a few years back when they cast their vote.


I do remember all the writers, especially everyone in Chicago like Mike Kiley and Mike Murphy, all calling out Reilly, Tinfoil and all.

Foulke You
03-09-2006, 02:07 PM
I do remember all the writers, especially everyone in Chicago like Mike Kiley and Mike Murphy, all calling out Reilly, Tinfoil and all.
It was disgusting how many writers and sports media members in Chicago circled the wagons to protect Sosa. There were just too many to count. They all made Reilly out to be some villain who was trying to bring Sammy down.

Only Sox fans were shouting, "what does Sosa have to hide that he gets so upset?"

Foulke You
03-09-2006, 02:08 PM
Add in the fresh case of severe adult acne and it's incredible that only Sox fans were saying "Hmmmmm?'
We were all just jealous because we traded Sosa to the Cubs for George Bell.