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Fenway
02-07-2006, 10:06 AM
Maybe the reason the Marlins can't look at Las Vegas isn't gambling after all, maybe the Twins have first shot :?:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BBA_TWINS_BALLPARK?SITE=NYNYD&SECTION=BASEBALL&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- The Minnesota Twins don't have to play in the Metrodome beyond the 2006 season, a judge ruled Monday in a decision that could increase pressure on lawmakers to approve financing for a new ballpark.

Hennepin County District Judge Charles Porter sided with the Twins in a lawsuit against the team's public landlord. The ruling gives franchise owner Carl Pohlad more power to move his team, although no city is publicly courting the Twins.

Porter ruled that the Twins lease expired in 2003.

Hangar18
02-07-2006, 10:26 AM
Wow. That is definitely going to get very interesting up north. I wonder if this will make the legislature have a change of heart about paying for a new stadium? They have plans already in place for their new park, they just have to say the word "go". Kind of unique because the plans are for the park to be in 2 different places .....

Chicken Dinner
02-07-2006, 10:28 AM
As big of a give-a-way state that MN is, it's amazing that they are so cheap that they won't get a new stadium financed.

Fenway
02-07-2006, 10:33 AM
As big of a give-a-way state that MN is, it's amazing that they are so cheap that they won't get a new stadium financed.

cheap is the correct term but don't blame the state lawmakers.

This interview from 5 years ago with Carl Pohlad speaks volumes

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200112/07_zdechlikm_twinspohlad/
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200112/07_zdechlikm_twinspohlad/images/carl2small.jpg

"How much shall I pay for a legacy?" Pohlad asks. "Shall I pay a couple of hundred million dollars just for the privilege of showing baseball in the state of Minnesota? No. You wouldn't do it and neither would anybody else."

ma-gaga
02-07-2006, 10:38 AM
cheap is the correct term but don't blame the state lawmakers.

Well. Pohlad is only about 75% to blame. The grandstanding politicians should shoulder the other 25%.

Nobody wants to be blamed for anything, so nothing gets done. :angry:

Fenway
02-07-2006, 11:13 AM
You can not discount contraction which the CBA says can be in play after 2006 as well.

union can fight it but by making the rosters 27 no jobs are lost.

Remember it was the Twins lease with the Dome that saved them in 2002, now that is not an issue. If I was a Twins fans I would be very scared right now. The Vikings love boat hurt the Twins stadium push badly as it put a cloud over all sports.

Flight #24
02-07-2006, 11:33 AM
You can not discount contraction which the CBA says can be in play after 2006 as well.

union can fight it but by making the rosters 27 no jobs are lost.

Remember it was the Twins lease with the Dome that saved them in 2002, now that is not an issue. If I was a Twins fans I would be very scared right now. The Vikings love boat hurt the Twins stadium push badly as it put a cloud over all sports.

IIRC, don't the owners have to notify the union of contraction by July? That ought to be an interesting indication of how things are (or more likely aren't) going.

Hmmmm......Twins contracted (with rosters expanded), and Carl Pohlad is "allowed" to bid on the Nats?

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 12:05 PM
IIRC, don't the owners have to notify the union of contraction by July? That ought to be an interesting indication of how things are (or more likely aren't) going.

Hmmmm......Twins contracted (with rosters expanded), and Carl Pohlad is "allowed" to bid on the Nats?Contracted teams don't just disappear. They have to be bought out. The cost of buying out the Twins and one other team would far exceed the net from the sale of the Nats. That money has to come out of the owners' pockets. I'll believe that when I see it. They may threaten, but it's just a ploy. It's no accident that the teams threatened with contraction are the teams that are trying to negotiate a new stadium, even though there are several other teams that are in worse financial shape.

Flight #24
02-07-2006, 12:10 PM
Contracted teams don't just disappear. They have to be bought out. The cost of buying out the Twins and one other team would far exceed the net from the sale of the Nats. That money has to come out of the owners' pockets. I'll believe that when I see it. They may threaten, but it's just a ploy. It's no accident that the teams threatened with contraction are the teams that are trying to negotiate a new stadium, even though there are several other teams that are in worse financial shape.

Yeah, unlikely to happen. But I can almost guarantee that you'll see it as a club over the MLBPA's head in negotiations.

Panpan21
02-07-2006, 12:50 PM
Contracted teams don't just disappear. They have to be bought out. The cost of buying out the Twins and one other team would far exceed the net from the sale of the Nats. That money has to come out of the owners' pockets. I'll believe that when I see it. They may threaten, but it's just a ploy. It's no accident that the teams threatened with contraction are the teams that are trying to negotiate a new stadium, even though there are several other teams that are in worse financial shape.

I think your exactly right. Just another ploy to scare Twins fans into getting this stadium deal done. On one hand, I can agree with Pohlad, the Metrodome sucks. I don't want to go there, but I don't have a choice. We need a new stadium up here. On the other hand, Pohlad wants to contribute next to nothing, and wants us all to pay for it while he reaps all the profits. Since they couldn't get a stadium passed when the Twins were actually contenders, I have my doubts about it getting passed now. Minnesota sports fans are NOTORIOUS for being fair weather fans. If you're losing they want nothing to do with you (see the U of M football, basketball and the Timberwolves). If they end up losing this team, I'll definitely be looking to move back to Chicago!!! I can't live in a city without baseball. Even it's in a crappy stadium.

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 02:00 PM
Yeah, unlikely to happen. But I can almost guarantee that you'll see it as a club over the MLBPA's head in negotiations.I don't think it's that much of a club over the MLBPA since they do have to bargain the effects of contraction. The target is local governments that don't want to pony up the dough for new stadia.

Flight #24
02-07-2006, 02:21 PM
I don't think it's that much of a club over the MLBPA since they do have to bargain the effects of contraction. The target is local governments that don't want to pony up the dough for new stadia.

I'm not a labor expert, but IIRC don't they just have to not eliminate jobs to get past the primary NLRB hurdle? Roster expansion would easily take care of that.

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 02:25 PM
I'm not a labor expert, but IIRC don't they just have to not eliminate jobs to get past the primary NLRB hurdle? Roster expansion would easily take care of that.That's the primary one. So if they expand rosters to keep the number of jobs the same, what's the club that the league has over them? It's not as if the teams that would be contracted are the ones driving up salaries.

Flight #24
02-07-2006, 02:40 PM
That's the primary one. So if they expand rosters to keep the number of jobs the same, what's the club that the league has over them? It's not as if the teams that would be contracted are the ones driving up salaries.

It's almost a guarantee that by eliminating a team, you replace whatever high-salaried players on that team with near-minimum salaried guys that will be the 26th or 27th man on the roster of remaining teams.

It lessens the demand for players since there are fewer overall starting spots available in baseball. Instead of needing 25 SPs in the ALC, you'd need 20. Those extra 5 guys will drive down the average salary in FA.

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 02:44 PM
It's almost a guarantee that by eliminating a team, you replace whatever high-salaried players on that team with near-minimum salaried guys that will be the 26th or 27th man on the roster of remaining teams.

It lessens the demand for players since there are fewer overall starting spots available in baseball. Instead of needing 25 SPs in the ALC, you'd need 20. Those extra 5 guys will drive down the average salary in FA.Unless I'm mistaken, those effects would also be subject to bargaining. Basically, anything that affects the players is subject to bargaining...which why that little clause that says the players can't oppose contraction doesn't mean squat. If it were to happen, MLB would have to give the players something in return...another reason it's not going to happen.

Flight #24
02-07-2006, 02:52 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, those effects would also be subject to bargaining. Basically, anything that affects the players is subject to bargaining...which why that little clause that says the players can't oppose contraction doesn't mean squat. If it were to happen, MLB would have to give the players something in return...another reason it's not going to happen.

The question is what standard needs to be met if it gets to an arbitration/NLRB type of scenario (since that standard would filter into the negotiations). IIRC the # of jobs was the primary one, not a guarantee that the jobs would be of equal pay/importance. Since the # of jobs issue would easily be dealt with, if it may not be that easy for the MLBPA to win out on the salary point, this could be a very effective club.

But as I said - that's based on my own recollection of NLRB proceedings, and it's not my area of expertise.

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 03:03 PM
The question is what standard needs to be met if it gets to an arbitration/NLRB type of scenario (since that standard would filter into the negotiations). IIRC the # of jobs was the primary one, not a guarantee that the jobs would be of equal pay/importance. Since the # of jobs issue would easily be dealt with, if it may not be that easy for the MLBPA to win out on the salary point, this could be a very effective club.

But as I said - that's based on my own recollection of NLRB proceedings, and it's not my area of expertise.The CBA says that all effects of contraction are subject to bargaining. That usually means a give and take. Not all effects can be directly remedied. If it results in fewer high salaried positions (starting pitchers, for example), that can't be easily remedied. But MLB would then have to give in on some other thing the MLBPA wants of equivalent value. This is why these things can get very complicated...what is equivalent value? It would only go to an arbitrator if they reached an impasse.

munchman33
02-07-2006, 03:26 PM
Well. Pohlad is only about 75% to blame. The grandstanding politicians should shoulder the other 25%.

Nobody wants to be blamed for anything, so nothing gets done. :angry:

Yeah. You Twins fans can continue to hold onto that notion while he moves your team straight out of town.

Seriously, I don't understand the logic of Twins fans. I mean, nobody here liked Reinsdorf when he was trying to get a new ballpark deal from the state. But none of us were rooting against his efforts. Because that's just plain stupid. We don't want the team to leave. Maybe you guys hate Pohlad enough to want the Twins to leave? That sure is what it seems like.

DumpJerry
02-07-2006, 03:27 PM
This is interesting. One poster from Minny said that Minnesota fans are notorious fair weather fans. That is an understatement. Remember, this is the state where ice hockey is more serious than religion. During the state high school hockey finals, there is no other news reported. Despite this, they let the North Stars leave for Dallas because of poor attendance. The North Stars were not 100% Minnesota born and raised players, so the loyalty was there only when they were winners.

I spent 7 years there (1980-87). The only team that probably is 100% secure in staying is the Vikings (the Love Boat stuff will blow over). There's just something about the Vikes that gets their hearts a-throbbing. Maybe it's because Viking season means it is almost time for hibernation (winter) and this is the last fun of the year, I don't get it. The Vikes have four games each year that the fans get pumped up for: the Packers and the Bears. If the Vikes go 4-12 with all four wins coming at the expense of the Bears and Pack, it is a successful year. I had a blast living there in 1985!:D:

I can see them letting the Twins get away without shedding too many tears. But since the Vikes have a stake in the new stadium, it might just get done. I've been to Viking and Twins games at the Dome (usually to see the Bears and Sox) and let me tell you, it is a barely acceptable forum for football and a total abomination for baseball. I finally stopped going to Twins games because of the stadium. Bring it down!
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ma-gaga
02-08-2006, 12:44 AM
... I don't get it...
Yeah, that's obvious. Look, Minnesota has a different culture than any other state. It's highly xenophobic, and absolute fear, and/or contempt for the rest of the country. It's a little sickening.

There are literally factions of Minnesotan's that do not trust anyone from outside the state, or anyone that has lived in the state for less than 10 years. Seriously. Hell, I'm that way to an extent.

Seriously, I don't understand the logic of Twins fans. I mean, nobody here liked Reinsdorf when he was trying to get a new ballpark deal from the state. But none of us were rooting against his efforts. Because that's just plain stupid. We don't want the team to leave. Maybe you guys hate Pohlad enough to want the Twins to leave? That sure is what it seems like.
I don't pretend to understand how a W.Sox fan feels about Reinsy. Well, I can guess that right now you are feeling pretty damn good about him, but I've been around this board for a while. I know that when you don't win, it's all about how "cheap that bastard" is. After 1987 and 1991, Twins fans loved Carl Pohlad. ...

You know. I want a new stadium, I've mailed my representatives on it, I've mailed my parents representative to vote for a deal. I've done my part for the last 4 years... But it keeps getting stalled and tabled, even though THE VOTES ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE TO GET A STADIUM PASSED. Just that the ****ing govenor doesn't have the balls to get behind the deal. And the anti-stadia guys are using the "referendum" card. But I'm "stadium fatigued". I'm sick of the rhetoric. I want the government to vote on the damn thing and get it over with.


Anyways. You are mistaking a "typical Minnesotan" with a "Twins Fan". 95% of all Twins fans hate the Metrodome, and want a new stadium. But nobody wants to pay for a new stadium. The billionare owner doesn't want to pay for it, the taxpayers don't want to pay for it, the private sector doesn't want to pay for it, and MLB doesn't want to pay for it.

Who's left?


...

Anyways, I'm somewhat happy about this. Maybe this will finally get a vote. According to the Greet Machine, (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/snackeru/greet/)the legislature/Twins currently has the votes to get the last stadium bill passed. There are 3 committee's that the bill has to get by first, including one run by a very anti-stadia ass. But there may be enough votes to get thru that committee as well.

pfft. But like I said, I'm worn out arguing about this. But hey, feel free to tell me how to think.

gowhitesox
02-08-2006, 02:48 AM
The Twins and Vikings have wanted out of the metrodome for some time now. Looks to me like Vegas will have a team before too long. If the Marlins don't go there the Twins will, one of these teams will go to Vegas.

Panpan21
02-08-2006, 11:49 AM
Ma-gaga has it right. I've lived for 6 years now, and it seems as soon as you leave Hennipin County (Minneapolis area), everyone turns small town on you and assume you are some city slicker trying to pull a fast one on them. It's amazing how stand-off-ish people are to you when you haven't known them since high school. All my "foreign" friends and I have that gripe about them. But that's for another post.

The Twins have the votes to get a new stadium, and from what I heard the other day they have a better chance then the Vikings. The problem now is all these chicken-**** representatives that don't have the cajones to vote on the matter. They want to wipe their hands clean of it so they don't look the bad guy, and make us voters go to the polls again. We elected them to make the decisions!! It's time they get off their duff's and vote on this. It'd help if the governor would quit being such a baby and stand behind this 100%. This city will lose a lot if they lose this team. Then we are no different then Omaha!!!

munchman33
02-08-2006, 01:43 PM
Yeah, that's obvious. Look, Minnesota has a different culture than any other state. It's highly xenophobic, and absolute fear, and/or contempt for the rest of the country. It's a little sickening.

There are literally factions of Minnesotan's that do not trust anyone from outside the state, or anyone that has lived in the state for less than 10 years. Seriously. Hell, I'm that way to an extent.


I don't pretend to understand how a W.Sox fan feels about Reinsy. Well, I can guess that right now you are feeling pretty damn good about him, but I've been around this board for a while. I know that when you don't win, it's all about how "cheap that bastard" is. After 1987 and 1991, Twins fans loved Carl Pohlad. ...

You know. I want a new stadium, I've mailed my representatives on it, I've mailed my parents representative to vote for a deal. I've done my part for the last 4 years... But it keeps getting stalled and tabled, even though THE VOTES ARE CURRENTLY IN PLACE TO GET A STADIUM PASSED. Just that the ****ing govenor doesn't have the balls to get behind the deal. And the anti-stadia guys are using the "referendum" card. But I'm "stadium fatigued". I'm sick of the rhetoric. I want the government to vote on the damn thing and get it over with.


Anyways. You are mistaking a "typical Minnesotan" with a "Twins Fan". 95% of all Twins fans hate the Metrodome, and want a new stadium. But nobody wants to pay for a new stadium. The billionare owner doesn't want to pay for it, the taxpayers don't want to pay for it, the private sector doesn't want to pay for it, and MLB doesn't want to pay for it.

Who's left?


...

Anyways, I'm somewhat happy about this. Maybe this will finally get a vote. According to the Greet Machine, (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/snackeru/greet/)the legislature/Twins currently has the votes to get the last stadium bill passed. There are 3 committee's that the bill has to get by first, including one run by a very anti-stadia ass. But there may be enough votes to get thru that committee as well.

pfft. But like I said, I'm worn out arguing about this. But hey, feel free to tell me how to think.

Well, I don't want the Twins to leave, I love the rivalry. And I love being able to drive to Minneapolis to see sox games. And there's always plenty of good seats available.

But I don't think the Twins have a prayer of staying. Maybe the rest of the Twins fans are like you. But there aren't nearly enough of you. And that's the real problem. Because there are plenty of cities with large amounts of baseball fans that would finance a stadium. And Pohlad is very aware of this. So he is not going to finance a new stadium. And he's not going to continue to play in the Metrodome. Which means either Minnesota pays up, or somebody else does.

ma-gaga
02-08-2006, 01:56 PM
But there aren't nearly enough of you. And that's the real problem.

Yep. I completely agree. :cool:

Pohlad bad-mouthed the stadium to an effect of almost killing off the team. And I think that his subsequent stadium hijinks, and extortion attempts has really soured the public against him. So now, even when a "reasonable" stadium bill comes along, nobody trusts him. Everyone is looking for the other shoe to drop.

All that said, I think the Twins have a 50-50 shot of getting this done. But T.Pawlenty (Govenor) needs to push this bill, despite the PR hit he'll take.

SouthSide_HitMen
02-08-2006, 02:41 PM
cheap is the correct term but don't blame the state lawmakers.

This interview from 5 years ago with Carl Pohlad speaks volumes

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200112/07_zdechlikm_twinspohlad/
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200112/07_zdechlikm_twinspohlad/images/carl2small.jpg

A hooker with a heart of gold?

"Baseball didn't go into this blindly," Pohlad said. "They did a lot of market studies. They had a point system, the performance of baseball teams at a given town and they developed a lot of statistics that said Montreal and Minneapolis - or Minnesota - simply doesn't meet the test of being able to field a winning team because of the economics."

Yes 1987 & 1991 never happened. The Twins never won the AL Central in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004. Montreal never had one of the best teams in baseball and good attendance until Bud Selig and Jeff Loria screwed them big time.

Question: How do you know when Carl Pohlad or Bud Selig are lying?

Answer - When their lips are moving.

More lies from the interview:

In September Fortune Magazine estimated his net worth at $1.8 billion. That was before the recent sale of most of his banking assets to Wells Fargo. Some estimates now put his worth at close to $3 billion.

Pohlad isn't interested in discussing those figures.

"I wouldn't care to speculate. I have not counted it so I don't know what I'm worth," he says.

And why people have had enough:

The sharpest blow to Pohlad's public standing grew from the 1997 stadium plan. Officials initially said Pohlad would contribute $80 million of his own money, but it turned out that he had offered a loan, not a grant.

Minnesota residents are among the highest educated population in the nation. Any referendum on this will fail and the politicians know they will be voted out of office if they pass this against the wishes of voters.

Carl and Bud have lost all credibility on this issue and the goodwill of the state. They have no viable current options to move teams demanding a new paid for stadium (Florida, Oakland, Washington, Kansas City) and this is not even considering the next cycle (Tampa, Toronto, White Sox, Anaheim, et al) who will need to replace their "obsolete" facilities within the next 20 - 30 years.

They have to contract a minimum of 2 teams (in pairs) with a $400 mil combined price tag. You think Jerry wants to cough up $13 mil? Or the Cubune? Don't think so.

In a study of all the publically funded stadiums by a Rutgers Professor the Metrodome was the only stadium which lived up to the promise of being a break even deal for the government who paid for it. This is what is gnawing Pohlad. He is not content with the tens of millions he gets in revenue sharing welfare from the Yankees and other teams which actually put money into their teams. Let him stew on this for another ten years - Minnesota will outlive Pohlad and his descendants.

The Twins are not contracting. They are not going anywhere. If Pohlad was a decent human being he would find local investors to take the team who will have a better chance to make something happen. There are hundreds of egomaniacs with the cash to buy a team and only 30 slots - most of which are not for sale. It is time for Pohlad to move on.

Flight #24
02-08-2006, 03:00 PM
Yes 1987 & 1991 never happened. The Twins never won the AL Central in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004. Montreal never had one of the best teams in baseball and good attendance until Bud Selig and Jeff Loria screwed them big time.


Would that be the same Expos whose average NL attendance rank in the decade prior to Loria taking over was 11.6 / 13.4 teams (using the average # of teams in MLB over the period)? The same Expos who when they were 94-68 in 1993 (pre-strike), finished 13th of 14 NL teams in attendance (after 5 consecutive years of finishing anywhere from 10th to 12th out of 12 NL teams)? Puh-lease. Loria screwed it up worse, but he entered a losing situation in Montreal.

Any franchise can be successful on the field and unsuccessful financially. Pohlad's net worth has nothing to do with it, the economics of a team are separate from both.

SouthSide_HitMen
02-08-2006, 03:19 PM
Would that be the same Expos whose average NL attendance rank in the decade prior to Loria taking over was 11.6 / 13.4 teams (using the average # of teams in MLB over the period)? The same Expos who when they were 94-68 in 1993 (pre-strike), finished 13th of 14 NL teams in attendance (after 5 consecutive years of finishing anywhere from 10th to 12th out of 12 NL teams)? Puh-lease. Loria screwed it up worse, but he entered a losing situation in Montreal.

Any franchise can be successful on the field and unsuccessful financially. Pohlad's net worth has nothing to do with it, the economics of a team are separate from both.

Montreal was among the league leaders in attendance for several years in the 80s. Even after the strike the Expos bounced back to 1.6 mil two years later with a 3 win difference in record, the same attendance level as the White Sox with their new stadium and a huge population advantage. I wonder where the White Sox ranked on that unbiased MLB contraction study.

Nobody is saying Pohlad should devote his net worth to save the team. My point is that he lies about not knowing his net worth, yet loves to be involved in deals that he obviously has no idea what the financial impact are.

The only owner who looks like more of an ass (well not counting MLB's collective ownership of the Nationals) is Jeff "No wonder everybody wants to leave Canada" Loria with the tiny little man he sends around the nation on his behalf with hat in hand.

"No wonder everybody wants to leave Canada" TM owned by The Florida Marlins National Baseball Club, all rights reserved.

AZChiSoxFan
02-08-2006, 03:48 PM
Then we are no different then Omaha!!!

Just much colder in the winter.

Flight #24
02-08-2006, 03:50 PM
Montreal was among the league leaders in attendance for several years in the 80s. Even after the strike the Expos bounced back to 1.6 mil two years later with a 3 win difference in record, the same attendance level as the White Sox with their new stadium and a huge population advantage. I wonder where the White Sox ranked on that unbiased MLB contraction study.

Nobody is saying Pohlad should devote his net worth to save the team. My point is that he lies about not knowing his net worth, yet loves to be involved in deals that he obviously has no idea what the financial impact are.

The only owner who looks like more of an ass (well not counting MLB's collective ownership of the Nationals) is Jeff "No wonder everybody wants to leave Canada" Loria with the tiny little man he sends around the nation on his behalf with hat in hand.

"No wonder everybody wants to leave Canada" TM owned by The Florida Marlins National Baseball Club, all rights reserved.

And in the year you mention, they ranked 11 out of 14 NL teams. By comparison, the White Sox rank that year was 9/14 in the AL, and it was their lowest rank in almost a decade. And that doesn't factor in the vast disparity in local revenues from broadcasts, etc. Remember - we're not talking competitive viability, but financial viability here.

As for Pohlad - he says he knows the financial implications of the team/stadium, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say. His "not knowing" his net worth is unlikely, I'll admit - but he probably doesn't know it on a day to day basis anyway, more of a ballpark (like most people). It's almost certainly just an attempt to get rid of the questioner.

dickallen15
02-08-2006, 11:48 PM
Minnesota should play hardball with the Twins. MLB is really running out of great alternatives to place teams. Pohlad is a billionaire who was so cheap 4 years ago his payroll was below his revenue sharing check. The fact is, if every city would have refused to build a local team a stadium, we would be seeing privately funded stadiums, or a totally different salary structure. In the end, Minnesota will probably cave and the Twins will have their new stadium. Either that, or they will be contracted which is what Pohlad wants. Another payday.

munchman33
02-08-2006, 11:59 PM
If Pohlad was a decent human being he would find local investors to take the team who will have a better chance to make something happen. There are hundreds of egomaniacs with the cash to buy a team and only 30 slots - most of which are not for sale. It is time for Pohlad to move on.

Pohlad makes money running the Twins the way he does. He's a business man first. He would only change the way he ran things to make more money. Either he gets his new park in Minnesota, or somewhere else. And now that the latter is a highly probable option, somethings gotta give. He isn't interested in selling. And he will move to make more money. You can bank on that. Either Minnesota pays up, or somebody else does.