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cornball
01-06-2002, 06:38 PM
According to the Sporting News....KW is trying to rekindle the Giles trade with Chris Singleton, however may need to part with Lee and prospects..i say do it.... without losing Garland or Rauch ..It is obvious KW wants a left handed bat...if he does i hope he also goes for another established starter perhaps Millwood or Weaver which would give us a great opportunity for the series this year..i dont believe we are all that far away with Giles.....but at the same time clean up the middle infield which is a diaster Valentine and Clayton both need to go....besides our payroll is 15-20 million lighter than at the beginning of last year...any thoughts......sorry for the length my first post here

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by cornball
According to the Sporting News....KW is trying to rekindle the Giles trade with Chris Singleton, however may need to part with Lee and prospects..i say do it.... without losing Garland or Rauch ..It is obvious KW wants a left handed bat...if he does i hope he also goes for another established starter perhaps Millwood or Weaver which would give us a great opportunity for the series this year..i dont believe we are all that far away with Giles.....but at the same time clean up the middle infield which is a diaster Valentine and Clayton both need to go....besides our payroll is 15-20 million lighter than at the beginning of last year...any thoughts......sorry for the length my first post here

Giles has a list of 6 teams he will go to. The Sox are not on that list so you can forget about Giles coming here. Good established pitchers usually make a ton of money so you can forget about that to. Clayton has to go, but nobody wants him. The Sox have nobody in their system ready to play short now. So Jose has to stick around. Even with Giles the Sox are a long way from the World Series. Welcome to the board.

cornball
01-06-2002, 07:08 PM
i believe if the clubs agreed Giles would come around ...this is of course if the report is true otherwise why would they even be discussing it...as far as the money for an established pitcher, of course, and we should be willing....i mean last year Baldwin made 6 million Wells made 9.2...the time is now..you can retool in baseball so much faster today...potential never havppens in most cases...my opinion on Valentine is he is the problem...a man without a spot.....Clayton is just an idiot but winning solves all the clubhouse worries

Daver
01-06-2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by cornball
i believe if the clubs agreed Giles would come around ...this is of course if the report is true otherwise why would they even be discussing it...as far as the money for an established pitcher, of course, and we should be willing....i mean last year Baldwin made 6 million Wells made 9.2...the time is now..you can retool in baseball so much faster today...potential never havppens in most cases...my opinion on Valentine is he is the problem...a man without a spot.....Clayton is just an idiot but winning solves all the clubhouse worries

Jose has a spot,SS.
Aside from being rotten in the clubhouse Royce is a liability,not an asset.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
Jose has a spot,SS.
Aside from being rotten in the clubhouse Royce is a liability,not an asset.

Thank you Daver.
And Cornball yes we should be willing to spend and go get a pitcher but we aren't.

SOXSINCE'70
01-06-2002, 07:21 PM
I'd rather trade for pitching,myself.The outfield is pretty crowded right now.If Leifer can play left field even average,that offsets the loss of C.Lee,who should be traded for pitching (PLEASE!!).

Even with Giles,the WS is no guarantee. :putitontheboard

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by SOXSINCE'70
I'd rather trade for pitching,myself.The outfield is pretty crowded right now.If Leifer can play left field even average,that offsets the loss of C.Lee,who should be traded for pitching (PLEASE!!).

Even with Giles,the WS is no guarantee.

It's a guarantee the Sox won't win the World Series. Pitching cost money, we don't have any money to spend. Singleton can go as far as I'm concerned.

cornball
01-06-2002, 08:20 PM
Jerry understood...however you will not for sure go to the world series with Jose Valentine at short....he is either hurt or not paying attention...at least with a Giles trade of Lee and others not part of the future you could solve the outfield backlog with an out field of Rowland/Singleton platoon in left ( keeping it warm for Borchard), Giles in center and under contract for a fews years and Mags.....Crede needs to play...this is the last year on Valentines contract anyway...and the division is ours to take if we want it.....the time is now thats all i am saying......we have been waiting and developing things that never happen

CLR01
01-06-2002, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Jerry understood...however you will not for sure go to the world series with Jose Valentine at short....he is either hurt or not paying attention...at least with a Giles trade of Lee and others not part of the future you could solve the outfield backlog with an out field of Rowland/Singleton platoon in left ( keeping it warm for Borchard), Giles in center and under contract for a fews years and Mags.....Crede needs to play...this is the last year on Valentines contract anyway...and the division is ours to take if we want it.....the time is now thats all i am saying......we have been waiting and developing things that never happen


i though Jose inked a 3 or 4 year deal.

Daver
01-06-2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Jerry understood...however you will not for sure go to the world series with Jose Valentine at short....he is either hurt or not paying attention...at least with a Giles trade of Lee and others not part of the future you could solve the outfield backlog with an out field of Rowland/Singleton platoon in left ( keeping it warm for Borchard), Giles in center and under contract for a fews years and Mags.....Crede needs to play...this is the last year on Valentines contract anyway...and the division is ours to take if we want it.....the time is now thats all i am saying......we have been waiting and developing things that never happen

Giles has a clause in his contract that only allows him to be traded to only six teams,the Sox not being one of them,So I think Giles is a pipe dream.If anything the Sox would be better off going after Erstad,who actually wants to play in Chicago.

But then again what the hell do I know?

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Jerry understood...however you will not for sure go to the world series with Jose Valentine at short....he is either hurt or not paying attention...at least with a Giles trade of Lee and others not part of the future you could solve the outfield backlog with an out field of Rowland/Singleton platoon in left ( keeping it warm for Borchard), Giles in center and under contract for a fews years and Mags.....Crede needs to play...this is the last year on Valentines contract anyway...and the division is ours to take if we want it.....the time is now thats all i am saying......we have been waiting and developing things that never happen

Valentin has 2 years left on his contract if I am not mistaken. The Sox will not win the series in those 2 seasons so having Jose at short isn't bad. It's going to take a pitcher from our future to get Giles, a Buehrle or a Garland type. In my opinion Rowand should start everyday in center 2002. Yes, I know you have to be strong up the middle if you want to win the World Series. Let's be honest the Sox aren't going to win it in 2002 so I'd like to see what Rowand can do. That's just my opinion though.

The division is there to be had. If they do win the division (which I don't think they will, but that's whole another thread) it's going to be yet another 3 and out, or 4 and out. I hope they prove me wrong.

cornball
01-06-2002, 08:33 PM
i understand the 6 teams clause he currently has, but why are they even discussing it then..if it isnt a possiblity..thats all i am saying

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by daver
If anything the Sox would be better off going after Erstad,who actually wants to play in Chicago.

But then again what the hell do I know?

You have some inside info Daver? Or are you just assuming he wants to because the Angels are brutal?

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by daver


Giles has a clause in his contract that only allows him to be traded to only six teams,the Sox not being one of them,So I think Giles is a pipe dream.If anything the Sox would be better off going after Erstad,who actually wants to play in Chicago.

But then again what the hell do I know?

And Erstad would actually fill a need that the Sox have, and Giles, while he's an excellent ballplayer, would require a huge payout in young pitching talent. If the Angels get realistic about what Darin Erstad in the last year of his contract is worth, then the Sox can go get him and they'd be better off.

In order to get Giles, you'd be talking trading Buerhle and at least one, probably two of the Sox's best prospects, AND Carlos Lee. If you think the Sox can get Giles for anything less, you're dreaming. If the Sox get Giles, it wouldn't guarantee anything, except that the team will suck in 2-3 years.

:KW

Sounds like my kind of deal!

Daver
01-06-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by cornball
i understand the 6 teams clause he currently has, but why are they even discussing it then..if it isnt a possiblity..thats all i am saying

I don't know that anyone other than the fans and the media are discussing anything.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by daver


I don't know that anyone other than the fans and the media are discussing anything.


Exacty... Like I said before, trade rumors almost never happen... Wait, I take that back, I remember that Jerry mentioned that the Sox were going after Todd Ritchie about a week before that happened. So that's a first. Giles will stay on the Pirates. IMO, they'd be stupid to trade him.

Daver
01-06-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


You have some insie info Daver? Or are you just assuming he wants to because the Angels are brutal?

No inside info JM,he is originally from the midwest and was quoted in a Cal.paper saying he would like to play in Chicago.I read the article after the deal was killed.

Daver
01-06-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz



Exacty... Like I said before, trade rumors almost never happen... Wait, I take that back, I remember that Jerry mentioned that the Sox were going after Todd Ritchie about a week before that happened. So that's a first. Giles will stay on the Pirates. IMO, they'd be stupid to trade him.

The Pirates want to trade him for a TON of cheap young talent because they need to cut payroll,plain and simple.And I think the Ritchie deal was done before the winter meetings ever started,which would explain your rumor theory.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by daver
No inside info JM,he is originally from the midwest and was quoted in a Cal.paper saying he would like to play in Chicago.I read the article after the deal was killed.

Oh that's good news. If that's the case then perhaps they can sign him as a free agent if they can't trade for him.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Exacty... Like I said before, trade rumors almost never happen... Wait, I take that back, I remember that Jerry mentioned that the Sox were going after Todd Ritchie about a week before that happened. So that's a first.

Me? I don't recall but I'll take your word for it Czal.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by daver
The Pirates want to trade him for a TON of cheap young talent because they need to cut payroll,plain and simple.And I think the Ritchie deal was done before the winter meetings ever started,which would explain your rumor theory.

Is their payroll that big? One would think with the new park they would be looking to expand payroll not cut payroll.

cornball
01-06-2002, 08:50 PM
gaurantee the Sox would suck in 2-3 years......come on by trading Carlos and two prospects....if the whole organization is pending greatness with Lee and possible major leaguers then we are in more trouble than i thought.....we will never get to a series...in sports today, the future is now....we need difference makers....

Daver
01-06-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Is their payroll that big? One would think with the new park they would be looking to expand payroll not cut payroll.

Their attendance didn't improve any with the new ballpark,therefore a leaner budget is in order.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by daver


The Pirates want to trade him for a TON of cheap young talent because they need to cut payroll,plain and simple.


You know, we complain about Reinsdorf here, but imagine being a Pirates fan. They just opened up a new park and got pretty good attendance for the Pirates, and they've got their only two stars (Kendall and Giles) locked up for long-term deals. By shopping Giles, they are telling their fans that they don't plan on ever competing, because even if the guys they get for him pan out, well, they won't be able to afford them, either, so they'll just end up trading them, too! So there's absolutely no incentive to root for the Pirates, because if by some fluke they put together a winning season, they're going to dismantle the team before it gets too expensive.

This kind of crap is the dark side of baseball, the side that doesn't get talked about. Pirates fans can only sit and hope for miracle seasons, because they sure as hell aren't going to build a quality franchise.

Daver
01-06-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by cornball
gaurantee the Sox would suck in 2-3 years......come on by trading Carlos and two prospects....if the whole organization is pending greatness with Lee and possible major leaguers then we are in more trouble than i thought.....we will never get to a series...in sports today, the future is now....we need difference makers.... It is going to take a hell of a lot more than C.Lee and two prospects to get Giles,it is going to take some top notch pitching prospects,like Rauch or Malone.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by cornball
gaurantee the Sox would suck in 2-3 years......come on by trading Carlos and two prospects....if the whole organization is pending greatness with Lee and possible major leaguers then we are in more trouble than i thought.....we will never get to a series...in sports today, the future is now....we need difference makers....

1 - we could never get Giles for Lee and two prospects. Won't happen. It's already been said that even if the Sox could convince Giles to come to Chicago, the Sox will have to include Mark Buehrle in any discussion. And for me, I'd rather keep Lee in left if the alternative is to lose our best starter.

2 - No one player guarantees a championship. Not even a half-dozen ballplayers could guarantee a championship. They could all go 6 for 50 in the ALDS, and then bye-bye championship. The '98 Astros traded for Randy Johnson for the pennant drive. If any player is a "difference maker", it's Randy Johnson. Not only did the Astros not win the World Series, they didn't even make the playoffs. So if Giles doesn't pan out, or even if he has a bad postseason, then it's a big waste.

cornball
01-06-2002, 09:04 PM
The bottom line is Giles will most like stay but with a few key additions (stud starter pitcher and a Giles type) we have a chance.....we keep talking prospects and Crede was MVP in the minors what twice and we cant get him on the field because of Valentine and Clayton......all i am saying is now is the time tomorrow may never happen

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
By shopping Giles, they are telling their fans that they don't plan on ever competing, because even if the guys they get for him pan out, well, they won't be able to afford them, either, so they'll just end up trading them, too! So there's absolutely no incentive to root for the Pirates, because if by some fluke they put together a winning season, they're going to dismantle the team before it gets too expensive.


That sounds a little like Reinsdorf. The game of baseball has so many flaws it's not even funny.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by cornball
The bottom line is Giles will most like stay but with a few key additions (stud starter pitcher and a Giles type) we have a chance.....we keep talking prospects and Crede was MVP in the minors what twice and we cant get him on the field because of Valentine and Clayton......all i am saying is now is the time tomorrow may never happen

To get a stud pitcher you have deal prospects and this organization doesn't want to do that. It's never going to happen for the Sox.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


To get a stud pitcher you have deal prospects and this organization doesn't want to do that. It's never going to happen for the Sox.

Well, there really aren't too many stud pitchers that are available out there right now. I would love to get Kevin Brown, though...

:reinsy

Hahahahahahahah!!!! *whew* That was the funniest thing I've ever heard!

RedPinStripes
01-06-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


In my opinion Rowand should start everyday in center 2002.

At least someone agrees with me.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, there really aren't too many stud pitchers that are available out there right now. I would love to get Kevin Brown, though...


If you listen to Kenny Williams we have Kevin Brown already. Except the Sox call him Jon Garland.

RedPinStripes
01-06-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


If you listen to Kenny Williams we have Kevin Brown already. Except the Sox call him Jon Garland.


LOL!

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
At least someone agrees with me.

I just want to see of he can play up here. We're not winning the series in 2002 so why can't we see what Rowand can do?

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


If you listen to Kenny Williams we have Kevin Brown already. Except the Sox call him Jon Garland.

I take it back, now THAT's funny.

:KW

Hey!

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I take it back, now THAT's funny.


Honest to god he compared Garland to Brown in 2000. The Sox will always count on their prospects to be the next big star, instead of going out and getting the current big star. I can't say I disagree but we know how it turns out for the Sox.

RedPinStripes
01-06-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I just want to see of he can play up here. We're not winning the seires in 2002 so why can't we see what Rowand can do?

True. That's why I want Clayton gone so they can have Crede at 3rd to see what he can do. I get so pissed off watching Jose at 3rd while we have an excellent defensive prospect that needs to learn how to hit MLB pitching.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes
True. That's why I want Clayton gone so they can have Crede at 3rd to see what he can do. I get so pissed off watching Jose at 3rd while we have an excellent defensive prospect that needs to learn how to hit MLB pitching.

Well no other General Manager wants Royce.

:crede
Tell me about it.

RedPinStripes
01-06-2002, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Honest to god he compared Garland to Brown in 2000. The Sox will always count on their prospects to be the next big star, instead of going out and getting the current big star. I can't say I disagree but we know how it turns out for the Sox.

Jr does a good job of hyping prospects too. Didn't he say Borchard was the next Mickey Mantle? I hope he's right, but that's a lot of pressure to put on anyone who never played MLB.

Daver
01-06-2002, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Well no other General Manager wants Royce.


Can you honestly blame them?

:hitless

I ain't getting no love here,and get the crazy redneck away from me.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I just want to see of he can play up here. We're not winning the seires in 2002 so why can't we see what Rowand can do?

Rowand has been good but not great at every level of the minors. He had decent power in the minors, but never showed a lot of plate discipline. His numbers at AAA last season were actually much better than his AA numbers the year before. But keep in mind that he was used in limited duty last season. He had almost as many ABs against lefties as he did against righties. I'd say he's about equivalent in talent to Jeff Abbott with a little bit more speed. That's not a knock, Abbott's pretty good, but I don't think that anyone would want to start him in center.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Honest to god he compared Garland to Brown in 2000. The Sox will always count on their prospects to be the next big star, instead of going out and getting the current big star. I can't say I disagree but we know how it turns out for the Sox.

Well, what the Yankees do is talk about how their prospects are all going to be big stars, and then they trade them for ballplayers that actually have talent. I still can't believe that they convinced the Indians that Ricky Ledee was worth David Justice...

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by daver
Can you honestly blame them?


No.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Well, what the Yankees do is talk about how their prospects are all going to be big stars, and then they trade them for ballplayers that actually have talent. I still can't believe that they convinced the Indians that Ricky Ledee was worth David Justice...

On the flipside our organization actually believes these guys are that good. While some will pan out and some won't we don't seem to want to deal any of them. However Williams has started to deal them which I like. He's in a tough position of having to decide who will pan out and who won't. I don't envy him at all.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


On the flipside our organization actually believes these guys are that good. While some will pan out and some won't we don't seem to want to deal any of them. However Williams has started to deal them which I like. He's in a tough position of having to decide who will pan out and who won't. I don't envy him at all.

Right, that's the big question... No one wants to be the guy who traded the next Brian Giles, but some of these guys really do have more value to the organization as trade bait. However, I do think that he threw away Kip or Fogg in acquiring Ritchie... I think that they could have pried him away from the Pirates and kept one of those two.

cornball
01-06-2002, 10:08 PM
The Yankees and the Cubs always inflate their prospects, the Cubs first base prospect Choi must be 40 years old by now we heard so much about him....I think we have to trade some of our prospects now. Most fans are thinking like we are, that we have no chance for the series, and with the roster as it stands and backlog at several spots with medium players and horrible defense we are right. In my view we are so close with a few moves it can happen now

longshot7
01-07-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Right, that's the big question... No one wants to be the guy who traded the next Brian Giles, but some of these guys really do have more value to the organization as trade bait. However, I do think that he threw away Kip or Fogg in acquiring Ritchie... I think that they could have pried him away from the Pirates and kept one of those two.

or the guy who traded away Sammy Sosa....

oh wait....

longshot7
01-07-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


2 - No one player guarantees a championship. Not even a half-dozen ballplayers could guarantee a championship. They could all go 6 for 50 in the ALDS, and then bye-bye championship. The '98 Astros traded for Randy Johnson for the pennant drive. If any player is a "difference maker", it's Randy Johnson. Not only did the Astros not win the World Series, they didn't even make the playoffs. So if Giles doesn't pan out, or even if he has a bad postseason, then it's a big waste.

Correction: The Strohs made the playoffs that season but lost in the first round. But you're right, the M's did get Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen.

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by longshot7


Correction: The Strohs made the playoffs that season but lost in the first round. But you're right, the M's did get Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen.

Oh, my bad - I should have looked that up. And the Mariners are a better team now than they were when they had Johnson, Arod, and Griffey. Go figure.

oldcomiskey
01-07-2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Valentine and Clayton both need to go....

well at least hes half right--unless hes talking about Billy Ray Valentine----I know he aint talking bout Manos

bjmarte
01-07-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey


I know he aint talking bout Manos

It is good of you to give him the benefit of the doubt.

bjmarte
01-07-2002, 05:07 PM
According to this article (http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news_story.jsp?article_id=cws_20010130_william s_feature_news&team_id=cws) CLR was right, Manos has a shiny new four year contract as of this past November. I knew I remembered seeing it somewhere. I had to go find it or it was going to bother me.

guillen4life13
01-07-2002, 05:15 PM
I'm sure that all of you understand that chemistry is a very big part of this team. If Jose Valentin leaves, you can be sure that the team chemistry will be completely screwed up. He is one of the main clubhouse leaders, along with Paul Konerko and some others. He has terrific range at shortstop, and honestly, have any of his errors ever actually affected the outcome of the game? All of his errors come when either the loss or win is way out of reach.

I don't think they should deal for Giles unless it's a definite steal, which is highly unlikely.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Daver, I'm stealing that.

RichH55
01-07-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I'm sure that all of you understand that chemistry is a very big part of this team. If Jose Valentin leaves, you can be sure that the team chemistry will be completely screwed up. He is one of the main clubhouse leaders, along with Paul Konerko and some others. He has terrific range at shortstop, and honestly, have any of his errors ever actually affected the outcome of the game? All of his errors come when either the loss or win is way out of reach.

I don't think they should deal for Giles unless it's a definite steal, which is highly unlikely.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Daver, I'm stealing that.

There is actually a really good article on Manos's errors on this site....For the reading imparied...they weren't that big of a deal

Daver
01-07-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13


But then again, what the hell do I know?

Daver, I'm stealing that.

Be prepared to hear from my Lawyers,I have that copyrighted.

RichH55
01-07-2002, 05:40 PM
Why the hell do we need to play Clayton anyway? He is showing us anything new(ie refusing to play winter ball) and he is in the last year of a deal anyway we don't have to showcase him in the hopes we can deal him in the offseason...the glitch will eventually work itself out(and if a Sox Fan patience is a virtue). Looking over the numbers last year Clayton didn't have a bad Royce Clayton season, in fact that was the best defense he's ever played....and that scares me...alot...Over the course of a full season you can usually expect 20-23 errors from Royce....Crede would have to flat out suck to really make moving Manos back to SS and Joey to 3B a bad decesion ...and thats on purely baseball terms...Clubhouse and intangibles just makes it even smarter

RichH55
01-07-2002, 05:42 PM
And yes its good to be back....Florida for awhile there....sad how often I thought about my posts per day number dropping.....Anyone remember the ESPN commercial about the guy who went to Cancun and his knowledge got smaller so he hates Cancun? Thats analogus to how I feel about now

Jerry_Manuel
01-07-2002, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Why the hell do we need to play Clayton anyway?

Money rules sports, Clayton makes 4.5 million dollars so he's going to play. Odd how Royce is making more then Foulke.

Daver
01-07-2002, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
And yes its good to be back....Florida for awhile there....sad how often I thought about my posts per day number dropping.....Anyone remember the ESPN commercial about the guy who went to Cancun and his knowledge got smaller so he hates Cancun? Thats analogus to how I feel about now

You were gone?

:)

RichH55
01-07-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by daver


You were gone?

:)


You know I think I was....but then again What the Hell do I know? Good Line...think I'll use it too :cool:

RichH55
01-07-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Money rules sports, Clayton makes 4.5 million dollars so he's going to play. Odd how Royce is making more then Foulke.


I'm not doubting money's role here, but last year Royce needed to play due to injuries(to an extent) and in theory to showcase his "skills" to get the glitch the hell out of here in the offseason....Since he is still here there seems to be no upside to him playing and he will make the money and take up a roster spot either way, no need to showcase him....If we make a big deal how Royce won't play this year, maybe he gets the hint(and we need to be less than subtle about it) and in a better world he takes a cheaper buyout(at least compared to 4.5 million) and thus you have addition by subtraction....He makes the money either way, if he doesn't help the ballclub the contract only says we have to pay him, not play him

Jerry_Manuel
01-07-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
He makes the money either way, if he doesn't help the ballclub the contract only says we have to pay him, not play him

Reinsdorf is not going to allow him to get paid and be warming Harold's spot on the bench.

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



I'm not doubting money's role here, but last year Royce needed to play due to injuries(to an extent) and in theory to showcase his "skills" to get the glitch the hell out of here in the offseason....Since he is still here there seems to be no upside to him playing and he will make the money and take up a roster spot either way, no need to showcase him....If we make a big deal how Royce won't play this year, maybe he gets the hint(and we need to be less than subtle about it) and in a better world he takes a cheaper buyout(at least compared to 4.5 million) and thus you have addition by subtraction....He makes the money either way, if he doesn't help the ballclub the contract only says we have to pay him, not play him

Well, if you think that Crede's the real deal, and he's ready now, then you're right, there is no need to play Clayton. But if Crede isn't the real deal, it's kind of nice to have Clayton there so that someone can play. It's not like we're stocked on the left side of the infield. As a matter of fact, Clayton and Valentin are about the only people in the whole organization that can play shortstop at the major league level. It's kinda nice to have more than one at the position.

As to how much money he makes, I always thought that it was silly to play someone just because they make a lot of money, even if they suck. I'm not saying that Clayton sucks, but that seems to be the consensus, so I won't argue. But Mike Murphy (of all people) came up with a great analogy for the situation, back during Spring Training '93 when Steve Sax was playing every day because he made something like $ 5 Million and Durham, who would make the major-league minimum ($100K at the time),was sitting in the minors. Murphy said, and you have to picture the whiny Mike Murphy voice with all the little gasps here,

"Let's say that you buy a ticket to a playoff game off a scalper. You pay 50 bucks to get the ticket, and you're really excited to see the game. Now, you get into the stadium, and you find out that your seat is terrible. You're behind a pillar, or way back in a corner, or in the nosebleed seats, or whatever. Now let's say that someone offers you to upgrade to box seats for an extra 10 cents. Do you turn down the offer, because you paid 50 bucks, and you want to save 10 cents, or do you pay the 10 cents and move to seats where you can enjoy the game? 'Cause your 50 bucks are gone, you aren't getting them back, and your seat isn't going to get better by itself."

Now, the question I asked before, the one that noone answered, is this: Let's say that the Sox get rid of Royce Clayton, and start Jose Valentin every day at short. What if Joe Crede sucks? Who will play third?

Paulwny
01-07-2002, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Reinsdorf is not going to allow him to get paid and be warming Harold's spot on the bench.

They also don't want to embarass KW. If he doesn't play it's admitting KW made a mistake acquiring Clayton.

Jerry_Manuel
01-07-2002, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Now, the question I asked before, the one that noone answered, is this: Let's say that the Sox get rid of Royce Clayton, and start Jose Valentin every day at short. What if Joe Crede sucks? Who will play third?

It depends. When Crede gets his chance whether it be 2002 or 2003 he's going to every opportunity to succeed, their not going to bench him. If he's bad in 2002 and bad in 2003 then I guess it's the free agent route.

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


They also don't want to embarass KW. If he doesn't play it's admitting KW made a mistake acquiring Clayton.

That's just not true. Steve Sax was Ron Schueler's first big acquisition, and after his bad '92 season, he warmed the bench in '93 and collected big paychecks while Joey Cora played second. Noone cared whether Ron Schueler looked stupid.

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I guess it's the free agent route.

:reinsy

You guys are great. You really know how to make me laugh.

Jerry_Manuel
01-07-2002, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
They also don't want to embarass KW. If he doesn't play it's admitting KW made a mistake acquiring Clayton.

Williams already said he was wrong more or less, when it came out that he planned on trading Royce after trading for him.

Paulwny
01-07-2002, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


That's just not true. Steve Sax was Ron Schueler's first big acquisition, and after his bad '92 season, he warmed the bench in '93 and collected big paychecks while Joey Cora played second. Noone cared whether Ron Schueler looked stupid.

You're right, I forgot about that great trade.

Jerry_Manuel
01-07-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
:reinsy

You guys are great. You really know how to make me laugh.

I never said it would be a good free agent Czal :D:.

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I never said it would be a good free agent Czal :D:.

:KW

Maybe Wade Boggs would be willing to come out of retirement...

Daver
01-07-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz



Maybe Wade Boggs would be willing to come out of retirement...

Whoa a Wade Boggs sighting,how rare is that?

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by daver


Whoa a Wade Boggs sighting,how rare is that?

Do you think he'll wear a Devil Rays hat in the Hall of Fame?

RichH55
01-07-2002, 07:06 PM
If Crede doesnt play great that is Liefer and Graffiano at-bats as well....neither are HOFers, but you could(and have done worse) ...Id take Manos at SS and this sort of platoon rather than watching Royce and his attitude out there(especially since defensively last year was an abberation)

Daver
01-07-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Do you think he'll wear a Devil Rays hat in the Hall of Fame?

He can't,the HOF now picks the hat for you,to end all these teams of paying guys to wear their hat.It was one of the few good decisions the Hall has ever made.

RichH55
01-07-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


Do you think he'll wear a Devil Rays hat in the Hall of Fame?


If he tries, I really hope MLB stops him....at least with Fisk there was grounds for an argument(though he should be a White Sox guy), but cmon on Wade...I will have even less respect for the man if he does that

Daver
01-07-2002, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



If he tries, I really hope MLB stops him....at least with Fisk there was grounds for an argument(though he should be a White Sox guy), but cmon on Wade...I will have even less respect for the man if he does that

MLB has no real control over the HOF,it is its own seperate entity.

RichH55
01-07-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by daver


MLB has no real control over the HOF,it is its own seperate entity.


Real Control..no....but they can exert pressure...or at the very least the media can....I remember players got eagleson kicked out of the Hockey Hall of Fame even though they didnt have real control...occasionally doing whats right can get the job done....not often enough though

Daver
01-07-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



Real Control..no....but they can exert pressure...or at the very least the media can....I remember players got eagleson kicked out of the Hockey Hall of Fame even though they didnt have real control...occasionally doing whats right can get the job done....not often enough though

Comparing the baseball HOF to any other hall is like comparing diamonds to steamy piles of you know what,the baseball HOF is the most arrogant group in the world,and they bow to no one.If you think MLB or the media matter in any way to the thinking of the baseball HOF you are sadly mistaken.If that was true Shoeless Joe would be in the hall right now.

But then again what the hell do I know?

RichH55
01-07-2002, 07:44 PM
Well there are a few schools of thought on Shoeless Joe...I think he should be in, and eventually he will....but the Hall lets writers pick, so it has some respect for them that way....but they dont want a ton of publicity on how they are lowering standards or lessening the significance of the Hall...that is what they will respect...haughty people dont like to be called ordinary

Daver
01-07-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Well there are a few schools of thought on Shoeless Joe...I think he should be in, and eventually he will....but the Hall lets writers pick, so it has some respect for them that way....but they dont want a ton of publicity on how they are lowering standards or lessening the significance of the Hall...that is what they will respect...haughty people dont like to be called ordinary

And ordinary fans are tired of the 70,80,and90 year old so called Writers that make up the majority of the vote,if you think the HOF is protecting its image on Shoeless Joe you are sadly mistaken,and if you think he will make it into the baseball HOF you need to share what you're smoking.The baseball HOF veiws itself as an exclusive club,and will allow in who they see fit,and that is the bottom line.

But then again what the hell do I know?

RichH55
01-08-2002, 12:33 AM
Daver I think Shoeless Joe should be let into the Hall of Fame...make no mistake about that, but for as exclusive and haughty as the place is, pressure can still be brought to bear on them....and Wade Boggs trying to put on a Devil Rays jersey would be the perfect proving ground for my theory...with the Fisk switch and the rumored Dave Winfield payoff, Boggs going with TB would be the perfect way to end this policy with its perchant for abuse