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Brian26
02-05-2006, 12:12 PM
Phil Rogers speculates in the Trib this morning that the Sox could reacquire Carlos in a midseason trade because the Brewers don't want to sign him to a longterm deal.

The only way I see this happening is if the Sox have major injury problems (knock on wood), but even if they were desperate this is a long shot. They'd probably have to give up lots of talent for what would be a 3-month rental, and that's if the Sox were willing to take him back.

ondafarm
02-05-2006, 12:16 PM
Doubt it. Carlos just isn't capable of playing solid defense and the White Sox are now all about solid defense.

Tragg
02-05-2006, 12:16 PM
That sounds about the same level as his paper napkin cubs-orioles-sox trade. We didn't succumb to overpaying for a hitter last midterm, and I hope we don't this year either. Plus, I thought there was a reason we wanted Lee off the team anyway. Plus, Milwaukee could contend.

jackbrohamer
02-05-2006, 12:17 PM
That was a bizarre column. It is a story about how the Brewers will likely not re-sign Lee when his contract is up, he added "local interest" by including the utterly unfounded statement that another club may acquire him during the season, including the Sox

I had to go through it a couple of times just to figure out why he even mentioned the Sox.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2006, 12:20 PM
There's a much better chance that he ends up with the Cubs, in a Pie for Lee swap.

Crede_Fan
02-05-2006, 12:36 PM
There's a much better chance that he ends up with the Cubs, in a Pie for Lee swap.


Would the Brewers trade him within their division? That would be very dumb on their part.

HotelWhiteSox
02-05-2006, 12:47 PM
Would the Brewers trade him within their division? That would be very dumb on their part.

http://www.mlb-teams.com/newhistory/images/Pittsburgh-Pirates.jpg

We resent that

TomBradley72
02-05-2006, 12:57 PM
That was a bizarre column. It is a story about how the Brewers will likely not re-sign Lee when his contract is up, he added "local interest" by including the utterly unfounded statement that another club may acquire him during the season, including the Sox

I had to go through it a couple of times just to figure out why he even mentioned the Sox.

Yes...this goes in the Cubune hall of fame along with the Palmeiro column....how exactly CLee would fit in with Ozzieball is something Phil never bothered to explain....why this deserves to be a headline story a few weeks before spring training begins is beyond me.

FedEx227
02-05-2006, 01:07 PM
Yeah that article made absolutely no sense to me. Outside of the fact that the Brewers didn't want to re-sign Lee, I didn't see any other real angle. No proposed trades, no reasoning behind the Sox reaquiring him... very odd and more then likely thrown up by Rogers 15 minutes before print time because he was too busy watching 40 Hours to SuperBowl XL on ESPN Classic (or maybe that was just me :redface:).

slavko
02-05-2006, 01:17 PM
1. Where would he play?

2. Look for the hidden agenda here, I'm certain there is one, because Phil Rogers is a baseball god who wouldn't write a senseless column.

jehosaphat
02-05-2006, 01:21 PM
Phil Rogers speculates in the Trib this morning that the Sox could reacquire Carlos in a midseason trade because the Brewers don't want to sign him to a longterm deal.

The only way I see this happening is if the Sox have major injury problems (knock on wood), but even if they were desperate this is a long shot. They'd probably have to give up lots of talent for what would be a 3-month rental, and that's if the Sox were willing to take him back.

Good comments by all - which won't stop me from adding some drivel! CLee coming to the Sox is as likely as anyone else coming, which also means it is as unlikely as anyone else coming. If Anderson would really tank, if Dye, Podsednik, or Anderson got hurt badly, if the Brewers got off to a horrible start, if the price was right, if, if, if, ... it is within the realm of possibilities. However, at this point it is simply gossip .... P Rogers is a fine sports writer, but sometimes the pressure of having to write something every week in the offseason makes even the best writer slip into gossip ... after all, gossip columns are the easiest to write.

doublem23
02-05-2006, 01:40 PM
Wasn't the whole reason Caballo was dealt in the first place because Ozzie didn't think he played his kind of ballgame? I would honestly expect to see Maggs come back to the Sox before Lee.

Crede_Fan
02-05-2006, 01:43 PM
Wasn't the whole reason Caballo was dealt in the first place because Ozzie didn't think he played his kind of ballgame? I would honestly expect to see Maggs come back to the Sox before Lee.


I actually expect Frank back before either of them. (so he can retire a White Sox)

jehosaphat
02-05-2006, 02:19 PM
Mags back? Frank back? Write it up, boys! Sounds as ready for print in the Tribune as CLee column!:D:

TornLabrum
02-05-2006, 02:25 PM
Wasn't the whole reason Caballo was dealt in the first place because Ozzie didn't think he played his kind of ballgame? I would honestly expect to see Maggs come back to the Sox before Lee.

*DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING* We have a winner!

Phil Rogers is probably the best baseball writer in Chicago. Unfortunately, he often sees the need, as do many other columnists, to make unfounded speculations about stuff like this. As an earlier poster said, he's trying to give a local spin to the story.

FedEx227
02-05-2006, 03:02 PM
What he really needs to start doing is purposing massive 5-team 18 player deals like Sam Smith.

SOX ADDICT '73
02-05-2006, 03:15 PM
Well, they did invite him to Spring Training:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=65434&highlight=carlos
:tongue:

soxfan43
02-05-2006, 03:38 PM
He just threw the Sox in there to get some interest in a slow baseball news week. Personally, I always loved Carlos. Probably had something to seeing to do with being at his grand slam vs the cubs, my favorite pre 2005 game memory. I'd like to see him back some day, but I don't see where'd he'd fit barring a major injury.

Fake Chet Lemon
02-05-2006, 03:56 PM
He just threw the Sox in there to get some interest in a slow baseball news week. Personally, I always loved Carlos. Probably had something to seeing to do with being at his grand slam vs the cubs, my favorite pre 2005 game memory. I'd like to see him back some day, but I don't see where'd he'd fit barring a major injury.

Agree. It was a weird column, but he has to write a baseball article every Sunday whether there is news or not. His stuff is normally the best there is in this city IMO.

soxinem1
02-05-2006, 04:01 PM
He knows WSI reads and analyzes his every word, so when we saw that headline we were sure to read it and get the scoop.

I do, however, see the possibility of CLee being courted by the cubs when he is a FA. They are always reminded of his past performance against them and in the Urinal. Problem for them is, he did it off their pitchers!

This is Mr. Rodgers way of saying he thinks the Sox will have problems. I say he can go **** himself.

ewokpelts
02-05-2006, 04:09 PM
Doubt it. Carlos just isn't capable of playing solid defense and the White Sox are now all about solid defense.
carlos wasnt that bad as a fielder.....nor was thomas.....

Gene

ondafarm
02-05-2006, 11:06 PM
carlos wasnt that bad as a fielder.....nor was thomas.....

Gene

Carlos was a disaster in the field. Anybody who knows much about baseball knows that.

FedEx227
02-05-2006, 11:23 PM
Carlos was great from a web-gem sense in that he dove for a lot of balls and came up with them.

But the reason he had to dive for most of them was because of awful reads, his equally awful throwing strength/accuracy was def. a bit of a downer too. I still love Carlos cause he brought alot of great fire-power to the Sox, but I agree on the bad fielder aspect.

White Sox Randy
02-06-2006, 09:41 AM
Phil Rogers is probably the best baseball writer in Chicago.


Yes, he is - but there isn't much competition.

SoxFan76
02-06-2006, 10:02 AM
Carlos was a disaster in the field. Anybody who knows much about baseball knows that.

He wasn't a gold glover, but a disaster?

He made all the plays that came his way and had a fairly accurate arm. Definitely wasn't the greatest, but could it be argued he was better than Podsednik? For the severe lack in range, he made up for it a bit with his arm.

Frank always got a bad rap too. He wasn't THAT bad, but at the same time he sure as hell wasn't a gold glover. The biggest problem is that he couldn't throw, similar to Bagwell who doesn't seem to be knocked nearly as much as Frank.

veeter
02-06-2006, 10:09 AM
Carlos was a disaster in the field. Anybody who knows much about baseball knows that.Anybody who knows baseball would say this comment is a disaster. Carlos was no gold glover, but a disaster? His last two years with the Sox noone in the outfield hustled more. Anything he got his glove on he caught. I also felt Carlos at least tried to improve. Again, is he a stud fielder?...No. But CLee, to me would rank as a solid middle of the pack fielder. As far as Rogers goes, he again had me but lost me when he said both the Sox and cubs would be contending. The cubs will again be battling for third or fourth with Milwaukee. And that's IF Prior and Zambrano have good years. With the cubs it's Spahn(Zambrano) and Sain(Prior) and prey for rain.

Captian Ron
02-06-2006, 10:13 AM
:KW No Thanks

Ol' No. 2
02-06-2006, 10:17 AM
Anybody who knows baseball would say this comment is a disaster. Carlos was no gold glover, but a disaster? His last two years with the Sox noone in the outfield hustled more. Anything he got his glove on he caught. I also felt Carlos at least tried to improve. Again, is he a stud fielder?...No. But CLee, to me would rank as a solid middle of the pack fielder. As far as Rogers goes, he again had me but lost me when he said both the Sox and cubs would be contending. The cubs will again be battling for third or fourth with Milwaukee. And that's IF Prior and Zambrano have good years. With the cubs it's Spahn(Zambrano) and Sain(Prior) and prey for rain.Disaster may be overstating things a bit, but Lee was definately below average in an OF position where you put your weakest fielder. He caught anything he got his glove on alright, but only because he played so far back that about the only way he could make an error is if the ball bounced off his forehead. His instincts were awful. Runners took lots of extra bases, which never shows up in any statistic.

veeter
02-06-2006, 10:29 AM
It's obviously the off-season because I'm defending Carlos Lee's defense. But I think Carlos gets bashed because he didn't look pretty while playing. He did play deep, true, but he got pretty darn good at coming in on balls. He made a lot of shoe string catches and again, really hustled which goes a long way with me. It's come out he wasn't a team player and didn't reciprocate for the Burke thing. But I think he's just plain flaky. I'm sure he is a stat guy but I really think he ranked at the top of Sox guys who worked on his game. The guy is such a talented hitter, he makes it look easy. But I think his 'D' was always unfairly rated.

ondafarm
02-06-2006, 11:27 AM
It's obviously the off-season because I'm defending Carlos Lee's defense. But I think Carlos gets bashed because he didn't look pretty while playing. He did play deep, true, but he got pretty darn good at coming in on balls. He made a lot of shoe string catches and again, really hustled which goes a long way with me. It's come out he wasn't a team player and didn't reciprocate for the Burke thing. But I think he's just plain flaky. I'm sure he is a stat guy but I really think he ranked at the top of Sox guys who worked on his game. The guy is such a talented hitter, he makes it look easy. But I think his 'D' was always unfairly rated.

Played everyone deep. This means a lot of balls will drop in front of you for extra hits and most runners will have an above average opportunity to take the extra base.

Decent arm but frequently missed the cutoff man or threw to the wrong base. That will really cost you runs.

Made a fair number of at the wall plays and looked spectatcular doing them. Mostly because he had lousy technique and made plays that should have looked easy look really hard.

Did make a certain number of shoestring catches and such, mostly because he was either out of position or read the ball poorly.

Almost never moved based on the pitch selection. Normally, Lee would be spinning his glove at that time while Jose was trying to flash him the pitch selection. Jose stopped bothering with this after awhile.

Regularly missed back-up assignments which may not cost you runs, or may cost you one heck of a lot.

Perhaps the average fan just doesn't understand the aspects of good defense. Teamwork, anticipation, knowledge and solid fundamentals are all requirements of good defense. Carlos Lee was weak in all of them. If you think his Web-gems make him even an adequate fielder then count yourself on the down-side of Carl Everett's 98% of all the fans have no idea of what's going on.

veeter
02-06-2006, 11:44 AM
Played everyone deep. This means a lot of balls will drop in front of you for extra hits and most runners will have an above average opportunity to take the extra base.

Decent arm but frequently missed the cutoff man or threw to the wrong base. That will really cost you runs.

Made a fair number of at the wall plays and looked spectatcular doing them. Mostly because he had lousy technique and made plays that should have looked easy look really hard.

Did make a certain number of shoestring catches and such, mostly because he was either out of position or read the ball poorly.

Almost never moved based on the pitch selection. Normally, Lee would be spinning his glove at that time while Jose was trying to flash him the pitch selection. Jose stopped bothering with this after awhile.

Regularly missed back-up assignments which may not cost you runs, or may cost you one heck of a lot.

Perhaps the average fan just doesn't understand the aspects of good defense. Teamwork, anticipation, knowledge and solid fundamentals are all requirements of good defense. Carlos Lee was weak in all of them. If you think his Web-gems make him even an adequate fielder then count yourself on the down-side of Carl Everett's 98% of all the fans have no idea of what's going on.Wow, did Carlos do anything right, genious? How could you observe everything Carlos was doing between pitches, were you at every game? The camera did not focus on him all the time. You obviously don't like the guy and that's fine. But he did have his moments in the field. Ondafarm trust me, you're not that smart.

White Sox Randy
02-06-2006, 12:02 PM
Lee made himself into an adequate left fielder. Pods is little more than that - no great instincts, weak arm but makes up for some of it with great speed.

Ideally, Lee would be your DH. Because, ideally you would want an outstanding defender at each position.

Apparently, Ozzie didn't care for Lee's attitude.

Anyway, he can't come back to the Sox unless the Sox replace Pods with a leadoff hitter that plays another position. Does anyone see that happening soon - I don't.

Maybe Owens will one day but he appears to be a left fielder also.

So, no C.Lee won't be returning to the Sox. Maybe Phil Rodgers was bored.

ondafarm
02-06-2006, 12:12 PM
Wow, did Carlos do anything right, genious? How could you observe everything Carlos was doing between pitches, were you at every game? The camera did not focus on him all the time. You obviously don't like the guy and that's fine. But he did have his moments in the field. Ondafarm trust me, you're not that smart.

I believe the word is spelled, genius. And have you ever heard of season tickets? Actually, I do like the guy, I just realize his limitations as a baseball player. Generally, good defenders are boring and don't get a lot of Web-gems. If you've done your homework and are in position and know the pitch and move appropriately, then you make most plays easily. Think of all the times that Iguchi was placed in short right and then a ground ball was hit right to him. Think that was an accident?

veeter
02-06-2006, 12:25 PM
I believe the word is spelled, genius. And have you ever heard of season tickets? Actually, I do like the guy, I just realize his limitations as a baseball player. Generally, good defenders are boring and don't get a lot of Web-gems. If you've done your homework and are in position and know the pitch and move appropriately, then you make most plays easily. Think of all the times that Iguchi was placed in short right and then a ground ball was hit right to him. Think that was an accident?First of all, I never commented on C.Lee's web-gems, that was somebody else. All I said was Carlos hustled his last two years. And that I felt he worked on his game. It's indisputable that Carlos improved his defense during his time here, and that he hustled. Also, I apologize for my harsh words.

pdimas
02-06-2006, 12:37 PM
I can't even remember the times Carlos got a late break on balls because he was too busy ogling some girl in the stands. Boy did we give him **** for that.
I liked him as a hitter but as an outfielder he left much to be desired.

I gotta tell you though what really got my goat was in a Cubs/Brewers game last year. Now i'm sure you all remember how Ozzie called him out for not sliding hard into second. I was at that game and everyone expected him to slide hard, everyone around me was pissed when he didn't. Instead he took a wuss slide into second. It was just pitiful. Now here the Cubs are playing the Brewers and Carlos takes the hardest slide I have ever seen him take into second knocking out Walker in the process. That slide was so hard even I winced. I never even knew he was capable of such a thing. I mean he wouldn't do it to send a message and protect his teammates and now new team suddenly he decides to grow a pair when nothing is on the line!

ondafarm
02-06-2006, 12:49 PM
First of all, I never commented on C.Lee's web-gems, that was somebody else. All I said was Carlos hustled his last two years. And that I felt he worked on his game. It's indisputable that Carlos improved his defense during his time here, and that he hustled. Also, I apologize for my harsh words.

He did hustle. I always prefer players who hustle. But he just wasn't a fundamentally sound player and he didn't seem to work on changing that. His defense may have marginally improved, the core aspects of it didn't and that is why he was traded. Ozzie is all about solid fundamentals players. I also apologize if my words were perceived as harsh.

SoxFan76
02-06-2006, 03:31 PM
He did hustle. I always prefer players who hustle. But he just wasn't a fundamentally sound player and he didn't seem to work on changing that. His defense may have marginally improved, the core aspects of it didn't and that is why he was traded. Ozzie is all about solid fundamentals players. I also apologize if my words were perceived as harsh.

The whole point is he wasn't a "disaster". It just makes you look like another Sox fan who is quick to rip apart a White Sox player, past or present, and I know you're not. I know you have more baseball knowledge than most on this board. You played, right?

Nobody is saying he was good, or even above average. But disaster? Come on man. Ross Gload in the outfield? Now THAT'S a disaster.

champagne030
02-06-2006, 04:01 PM
He did hustle. I always prefer players who hustle. But he just wasn't a fundamentally sound player and he didn't seem to work on changing that. His defense may have marginally improved, the core aspects of it didn't and that is why he was traded. Ozzie is all about solid fundamentals players. I also apologize if my words were perceived as harsh.

This is not an insult to you or a rip personally, but I would rather have Lee in LF if the game was on the line. I know this post will be torn to shreds, but I seriously believe Lee is a better defensive LF than Pods. This post has NOTHING to do with what Pods brings to our team (the trade was great and is great for our team), but Pods' arm is terrible and he doesn't play balls well in LF. I think that the play in game 2 of the WS was one of the weakest throws I've ever seen.....the guy was 5 steps from 3rd and Pod's was playing short left. I know that it happened, but I cannot recall a ball in the gap that Pod's caught that Lee would not have. Again, this trade was great for us because of the salary involved and getting a great leadoff hitter, but I don't agree that Pod's for Lee made us better defensively.

ondafarm
02-06-2006, 05:35 PM
The whole point is he wasn't a "disaster". It just makes you look like another Sox fan who is quick to rip apart a White Sox player, past or present, and I know you're not. I know you have more baseball knowledge than most on this board. You played, right?

Nobody is saying he was good, or even above average. But disaster? Come on man. Ross Gload in the outfield? Now THAT'S a disaster.

Three years as a farmhand backstop in the lower levels of Dragons organization.

Carlos had a great bat. He was always one of those Q hitters. He'd hit when no one else was and yet he'd be helpless against a guy who everybody else was knocking around. Every team should have one; they do win you games. And for a big guy he was fast.

He wasn't much of a base-stealer for us (career 77 steals, season high 18.) That's a limitation of his game, but hardly ripping on him, IMHO.

He had an above average arm, but saying he wasn't very good at positioning or reading the ball of the bat are two things that are my opinions, but I hardly think that's ripping on the guy. Saying he was a bum and a wife beater, now that would be ripping on him. Saying I wish he did something more environmentally sound that cattle ranch during the off-season is also my opinion, but since I'm not an eco-nomist, I would call a non-expert opinion.

Carlos Lee can hit the ball really well. He's a definite power threat and a great player for the Brewers. I just don't think he'd help the White Sox much.

As for the defensive comparisons of Pods versus CLee, let me just qualify my opinion by saying this.When I have the pleasure of sitting with a scout or a former player or even my past manager, I always get schooled in the little things. But when I'm sitting with my sister or even my dad, I can always point out things that one guy or another is doing that will affect the outcome of the game, but aren't immediately obvious.

CLee has good speed and he did get to a certain number of balls that other guys wouldn't have. I think Pods is faster but Lee is still fast. But that's desceptive. I never recall seeing Carlos play shallow on any hitter, including guys you absolutely need to: left-handed pull hitters, for example. If you watch the playoff games over again you will see that whenever Uribe shaded a lefty on the second base side and Iguchi played shallow right, then Pods would be playing in and towards the line. Because a dead-pull lefty power-hitter will occasionally get a slice on the ball or can inside-out the ball. Both loose a lot of power but will tail towards the left-field line. Pods made several catches early in the season on plays like that. He made them look routine. Although Carlos would occasionaly run down a ball like that, a lot of them fell in front of him or even down the line.

Twive Pods was playing up on singles to left in the World Series. The Houston runners were unable to take the extra base. And yet, all we have represented here is how Pods was unable to throw a guy out at the plate on a play I didn't think he had any chance to make anyways.

Carlos is a better than disaster left fielder. Gload or Everett were both barely mobile in the outfield. On the other hand, I don't recall either of them ever being distracted by a pretty girl in the stands. Carlos has significant ability, greater ability than a lot of players, but to say that he's better than Pods on defense just makes me laugh.

champagne030
02-06-2006, 07:19 PM
Three years as a farmhand backstop in the lower levels of Dragons organization.

Carlos had a great bat. He was always one of those Q hitters. He'd hit when no one else was and yet he'd be helpless against a guy who everybody else was knocking around. Every team should have one; they do win you games. And for a big guy he was fast.

He wasn't much of a base-stealer for us (career 77 steals, season high 18.) That's a limitation of his game, but hardly ripping on him, IMHO.

He had an above average arm, but saying he wasn't very good at positioning or reading the ball of the bat are two things that are my opinions, but I hardly think that's ripping on the guy. Saying he was a bum and a wife beater, now that would be ripping on him. Saying I wish he did something more environmentally sound that cattle ranch during the off-season is also my opinion, but since I'm not an eco-nomist, I would call a non-expert opinion.

Carlos Lee can hit the ball really well. He's a definite power threat and a great player for the Brewers. I just don't think he'd help the White Sox much.

As for the defensive comparisons of Pods versus CLee, let me just qualify my opinion by saying this.When I have the pleasure of sitting with a scout or a former player or even my past manager, I always get schooled in the little things. But when I'm sitting with my sister or even my dad, I can always point out things that one guy or another is doing that will affect the outcome of the game, but aren't immediately obvious.

CLee has good speed and he did get to a certain number of balls that other guys wouldn't have. I think Pods is faster but Lee is still fast. But that's desceptive. I never recall seeing Carlos play shallow on any hitter, including guys you absolutely need to: left-handed pull hitters, for example. If you watch the playoff games over again you will see that whenever Uribe shaded a lefty on the second base side and Iguchi played shallow right, then Pods would be playing in and towards the line. Because a dead-pull lefty power-hitter will occasionally get a slice on the ball or can inside-out the ball. Both loose a lot of power but will tail towards the left-field line. Pods made several catches early in the season on plays like that. He made them look routine. Although Carlos would occasionaly run down a ball like that, a lot of them fell in front of him or even down the line.

Twive Pods was playing up on singles to left in the World Series. The Houston runners were unable to take the extra base. And yet, all we have represented here is how Pods was unable to throw a guy out at the plate on a play I didn't think he had any chance to make anyways.

Carlos is a better than disaster left fielder. Gload or Everett were both barely mobile in the outfield. On the other hand, I don't recall either of them ever being distracted by a pretty girl in the stands. Carlos has significant ability, greater ability than a lot of players, but to say that he's better than Pods on defense just makes me laugh.

I respect your opinion, but I'll disagree. Carlos is not a disaster in left. He should not be in the same sentence as Gload or Everett. No, he's not a gold glove defense, but Pod's isn't either. I watched him, as a season ticket holder in LF and he improved a lot his last 2 years here. Yes, he played with his glove and looked at the "people" in the stands, but he read the ball pretty well off the bat and got good jumps. I'll still stand by my statement that with the game on the line I'd rather have Lee in left and Pod's......JMHO.

PaulDrake
02-07-2006, 10:24 AM
Carlos was a disaster in the field. Anybody who knows much about baseball knows that. I know you played ball and I didn't. That being said, I thought Carlos greatly improved his defense. In 04 he fielded a perfect 1.000 and had 11 assists. I know that many here could give 2 you know whats about fielding averages, and there is general lack of agreement on how to judge fielding prowess. I used to cringe when a fly ball was hit to left field but by 04 I was comfortable with Lee out there. Ya, I know that makes me about as dumb as a rock. I didn't watch Lee last year in Milwaukee but it looks like he might have regressed a bit.

ondafarm
02-07-2006, 12:33 PM
Look, about CLee versus Pods in LF. Compare Lee's 04 campaign against Pods' 05.


YR Innings PO Assist Error RF FP team's outs
CLee 04 1404 308 8 6 2.03 .981 21.9
Pods 05 1116 274 3 3 2.23 .989 24.5


Clearly, both men are fast and catch most of what they get to. Carlos has a better arm, but also boots more. To me the key column is the last one. This is the number of the players put outs divided by the number of innings (x100.) It is the number of put outs recorded in 100 innings of play.

What it translates to is how many balls is one player getting to versus another. Pods is getting to two and a half more balls than Lee was.

I compared these numbers to other players in left field. Matsui has the same number as Lee 21.9. Ramirez, a very bad fielder is the low man at 18.2. Guillen, of the Angels had 22.9. Gerut of the Indians had 23.8. Crisp has 26.0. Aaron Rowand's been very consistent at right about 28.1. Center fielders get more balls to play.

What this means to me is that Carlos is not a disaster. He performs below average but not nearly as bad as Manny Ramirez, who is an unmitigated disaster. Pods is clearly better however.

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 02:08 PM
Look, about CLee versus Pods in LF. Compare Lee's 04 campaign against Pods' 05.


YR Innings PO Assist Error RF FP team's outs
CLee 04 1404 308 8 6 2.03 .981 21.9
Pods 05 1116 274 3 3 2.23 .989 24.5


Clearly, both men are fast and catch most of what they get to. Carlos has a better arm, but also boots more. To me the key column is the last one. This is the number of the players put outs divided by the number of innings (x100.) It is the number of put outs recorded in 100 innings of play.

What it translates to is how many balls is one player getting to versus another. Pods is getting to two and a half more balls than Lee was.

I compared these numbers to other players in left field. Matsui has the same number as Lee 21.9. Ramirez, a very bad fielder is the low man at 18.2. Guillen, of the Angels had 22.9. Gerut of the Indians had 23.8. Crisp has 26.0. Aaron Rowand's been very consistent at right about 28.1. Center fielders get more balls to play.

What this means to me is that Carlos is not a disaster. He performs below average but not nearly as bad as Manny Ramirez, who is an unmitigated disaster. Pods is clearly better however.Even that underestimates the difference. Playing OF is about a lot more than catching balls. It's about getting yourself in position to make a good throw and throwing to the right base. If you watched Gload play LF, he also caught most of what came his way, but he usually caught it on his heels and wasn't able to make a decent throw. This comes into play whether an out is made or if it's a hit, maybe even more in the latter case.

Also, Lee played so deep that runners were able to take extra bases. I recall more than once seeing runners go from 1st to 3rd on a blooper that bounced in front of him. That should NEVER happen. Podsednik may have a weaker arm, but by not playing as deep he was better able to keep baserunners in check.

Iwritecode
02-07-2006, 03:40 PM
Even that underestimates the difference. Playing OF is about a lot more than catching balls. It's about getting yourself in position to make a good throw and throwing to the right base. If you watched Gload play LF, he also caught most of what came his way, but he usually caught it on his heels and wasn't able to make a decent throw. This comes into play whether an out is made or if it's a hit, maybe even more in the latter case.

Also, Lee played so deep that runners were able to take extra bases. I recall more than once seeing runners go from 1st to 3rd on a blooper that bounced in front of him. That should NEVER happen. Podsednik may have a weaker arm, but by not playing as deep he was better able to keep baserunners in check.

Lee plays deep because he's not good at going back on the ball. Something else that will never show up in statistics.

Pods could actually play just as deep because he speed would allow him to get to those bloops much quicker. I've always thought he played fairly shallow but not much gets over his head.

Ol' No. 2
02-07-2006, 04:14 PM
Lee plays deep because he's not good at going back on the ball. Something else that will never show up in statistics.

Pods could actually play just as deep because he speed would allow him to get to those bloops much quicker. I've always thought he played fairly shallow but not much gets over his head.Outfielders generally play as shallow as their abilities allow. The fact that Pods plays significantly shallower than Lee should be enough all by itself to tell you who the better fielder is. Playing shallower does a lot more than just cuts off bloopers. It allows you to cut off balls in the gaps or down the line, holding runners to singles instead of doubles. When Lee played LF, anything hit over Crede's head was a stand-up double.