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MattSharp
01-06-2002, 05:11 PM
AL:

1. Oakland
Hudson, Zito, Mulder, Lidle. No one has a better 1-4. Hiljus has potential to dominate.

2. Yankees
Clemens, Pettite, Mussina a strong/reliable 1-3. El Duque and Sterling Hitchcock are queston marks.

3. Boston
Pedro, Hermansen, Burkett, Lowe and Frank Castillo. Lots of experience. Lots of injuries, but a lot of winners too.

4. Minnesota
Radke, Milton, Mays, Reed. Could excel to No. 2 this year.

5. Seattle
Garcia, Moyer, and Abbott are strong. Lots more potential here.

NL:

1. Arizona
Schilling and Johnson are too good. Lack a lot after....

2. Atlanta
Maddux, Glavine, Millwood, and Lopez are a strong, but older 1-4.

3. Mets
Leiter, Estes, Rusch, Traschel and Chen. Strong but shaky at times

4. Cubs
Lieber, Wood, Bere, Tapani. Good 1-4. Lots of injuries though

5. Florida
Dempster, Penny, Burnett, and Beckett. Young and strong. The future Braves.


What do you all think.....

Spiff
01-06-2002, 05:38 PM
Pretty accurate, I think. In a few years, I think the Padres and White Sox are gonna be up there.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 05:39 PM
4. Cubs
Lieber, Wood, Bere, Tapani. Good 1-4. Lots of injuries though

Tapani isn't on the team anymore. And Bere will be back to his usual bad self in 2002.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
In a few years, I think the the White Sox are gonna be up there.

What's the rotation going to be?

MattSharp
01-06-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


What's the rotation going to be?

Buerhle
Garland
Rauch
Wright
???

Spiff
01-06-2002, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp


Buerhle
Garland
Rauch
Wright
???

Plus Almonte or Malone or any number of young arms...I'm not 100% sure who it'll be but I have an idea the rotation will fall into place.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
Plus Almonte or Malone or any number of young arms...I'm not 100% sure who it'll be but I have an idea the rotation will fall into place.

Almonte will be the closer. I think Foulke will walk after his contract is up. That's not a bad rotation but top 5 in the AL? I don't see that.

CLR01
01-06-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Almonte will be the closer. I think Foulke will walk after his contract is up. That's not a bad rotation but top 5 in the AL? I don't see that.


They have the potential to be but it all depends on how they develop and the quality of pitchers everyone else develops.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 05:59 PM
I don't agree about Boston. Hermanson and Burkett are doomed to completely fall apart this season. Every year, the Red Sox go looking for veteran arms to back up Pedro, every year everyone talks about how great their rotation's going to be, and every year they suck. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Red Sox rotation except for Pedro will suck once more.

And El Duque is probably gone in New York. David Wells is the question mark there...

Spiff
01-06-2002, 06:00 PM
Also the Astros have Oswalt and Miller and Carlos Hernandez, not a bad young three.

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
They have the potential to be but it all depends on how they develop and the quality of pitchers everyone else develops.

Ok.

I have negative thoughts but nobody wants to here that. I hope everything turns out good.

MattSharp
01-06-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
I don't agree about Boston. Hermanson and Burkett are doomed to completely fall apart this season. Every year, the Red Sox go looking for veteran arms to back up Pedro, every year everyone talks about how great their rotation's going to be, and every year they suck. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Red Sox rotation except for Pedro will suck once more.

And El Duque is probably gone in New York. David Wells is the question mark there...

Cone pitched good last year for them, so did Nomo IMO. You never know with the guys they got. They have a good bullpen so that helps

guillen4life13
01-06-2002, 09:59 PM
Sox rotation in a few years:

Buehrle
Rauch
Garland
Wright
Glover/Ritchie/Parque

They're gonna need another LHP, right now, and down the road.

Right now the best rotations in the AL and NL are (IMO):

yanks
A's
Twins
Seattle
Angels (these offseason moves have given them some pretty good pitching)

NL

Atlanta
Arizona (Johnson, Schilling, Batista, squat, squat)
Chicago (as much as I hate to say it, Lieber is quite something)
Houston
Cardinals (Ankiel is back to form, and they had a pretty good rotation already. Expect Morris to be the ace, but Ankiel will be the #2 or @3.)

Jerry_Manuel
01-06-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Sox rotation in a few years:
Buehrle
Rauch
Garland
Wright
Glover/Ritchie/Parque


If Parque is still in our rotation in a few years that's a bad sign. I'd assume that Corwin Malone and Kris Honel will be in there.

Daver
01-06-2002, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


If Parque is still in our rotation in a few years that's a bad sign. I'd assume that Corwin Malone and Kris Honel will be in there.

Honel will need at least 2 years in the minors to get conditioned to work the innings,he is straight out of HS.

The guy that seems to get dismissed here,and I am not sure why,is Rocky Biddle.When healthy he is a four pitch pitcher that goes after the hitter,is not timid on the mound,and is not afraid to bust hitters inside,all the things that Kip Wells wasn't.

But then again what the hell do I know?

nut_stock
01-06-2002, 11:28 PM
Cardinals (Ankiel is back to form, and they had a pretty good rotation already.


Don't forget about Bud Smith on their staff.

Iguana775
01-07-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by daver


Honel will need at least 2 years in the minors to get conditioned to work the innings,he is straight out of HS.

The guy that seems to get dismissed here,and I am not sure why,is Rocky Biddle.When healthy he is a four pitch pitcher that goes after the hitter,is not timid on the mound,and is not afraid to bust hitters inside,all the things that Kip Wells wasn't.

But then again what the hell do I know?

ditto. i think rocky has the talent to be a good pitcher when he is healthy. he pitched a lot of last year with a bum shoulder.....which we all knew for 3 month before it was announced. there were times when he showed he could dominate. with a little better control, he could be a #3 or possible #2 starter.

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Iguana775


ditto. i think rocky has the talent to be a good pitcher when he is healthy. he pitched a lot of last year with a bum shoulder.....which we all knew for 3 month before it was announced. there were times when he showed he could dominate. with a little better control, he could be a #3 or possible #2 starter.

From what I've heard, it sounds like Rocky's destined for the bullpen next season. I think that Manuel and Williams really like Glover and Wright, who are the other two possibilities for the fifth spot, and it seems that Parque's going to go back to the rotation, so that leaves Biddle out of the mix except as a long reliever.

My prediction - he'll be in the rotation by June.

hold2dibber
01-07-2002, 01:10 PM
I think Biddle has a better chance to be effective than Wright this year. Wright has great stuff and showed some flashes, but I don't think he's anywhere close to being a major league starter yet. He has no command whatsoever. I think he would greatly benefit from a full minor league season this year. He's at least one year away. If they insist on keeping him up, I'd prefer to see him coming out of the bullpen, where Manuel can spot him in appropriate situations.

Iwritecode
01-07-2002, 01:27 PM
I know this is unrelated and will probably get thrown in the parking lot but...

Hey nut_stock, you do know that the little story in your signature is an urban legend right???

MattSharp
01-07-2002, 02:53 PM
What about the Angels? They totally slipped my mind?

Appier
Sele
Washburn
Schoenweis
Ortitz

Two veterans and a lot of youth. Looks good to me....

guillen4life13
01-07-2002, 05:02 PM
Parque is only 28 years old. He has a good 10 years left in his career, unless he completely flops. He's a legitimate #3-5 starter.

I remember early in the year, Rocky Biddle was dominating on the mound, but he never was able to show good control. He needs to try and improve on that. He didn't show much stamina either, and hopefully it was due to the injury, but there's a good chance that it wasn't.

I think he should be put in long relief, and take over a starting role if someone gets injured (which we hope doesn't become the case).

This coming year's rotation (if they even play) will be:

Buehrle
Ritchie
Garland
Parque
Wright/Rauch/Biddle/Glover

Bullpen:

Rauch?
Biddle?
Glover?
Wright?
Osuna
Foulke
Howry
Wunsch
One of the prospects


Right now a problem to be addressed for this team is the catcher position. Sandy causes problems, and maybe the Sox should look for shoppers. He may give you a good game one day, but, honestly, .240 average is not good. Mark L. brings a good LH bat to the lineup, and Josh Paul brings very good speed and the ability to get on base as he displayed after he was recalled.
A big name player is not needed, but I think they just need an upgrade. If this organization was truly bent on doing something in '01 they would not have let CJ leave. They'd have locked him up. Fordyce wasn't bad either, and he was a pretty decent fielding catcher also.

I don't think this organization should rush the prospects because if they find that the arm cannot handle the pressures of starting and so on a little to late, there's another potentially good or great arm they've ruined.

Huisj
01-07-2002, 05:03 PM
whoa whoa, last i knew parque wasn't 28 yet. If I remeber right, his birthdate is in 1976, which would make him 26 at the oldest.

Daver
01-07-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Parque is only 28 years old. He has a good 10 years left in his career, unless he completely flops. He's a legitimate #3-5 starter.

I remember early in the year, Rocky Biddle was dominating on the mound, but he never was able to show good control. He needs to try and improve on that. He didn't show much stamina either, and hopefully it was due to the injury, but there's a good chance that it wasn't.



Parque rarely makes it out of the fifth inning,when he's healthy,he is better suited for long releif.

Biddle has good control,you don't pitch inside the way he does without it sorry,I think you are mistaking control for stuff,his injury forced him change his release point and he lost the snap on his curve and the movement on his fastball from it,but it did not affect his control.


But then again what the hell do I know?

RichH55
01-07-2002, 05:53 PM
David Wells as an Ace is a ? David Wells as a 4th or (dear lord) 5th starter is a luxury and a half. He is not that far removed from a 20 win season, has no real history of injuries(though that it was last year it bad), and is a leftie so the value will be a bit better than the numbers suggest....Plus the guy loves NY and is rehabbing decently hard, he might show up to camp in half-way decent shape....for a 4th Starter that would please the hell out of me...granted you can get that type of 4th Starter when money is no object.....c'est la vie

RichH55
01-07-2002, 05:57 PM
I don't think Kris Honel can be counted on just yet or posibly ever. A HS kid is always going to be a ?, and from what I'm heard I'm not terribly encouraged.....If I was a betting man I would bet that Honel wasn't going to make it and if he did it would be as a marginal major leaguer...more the Todd Van Poppel of today rather than than what Todd was supposed to be....granted this is a post that if someone keeps I could be discredited in future arguments for along time to come...c'est la vie

Jerry_Manuel
01-07-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I don't think Kris Honel can be counted on just yet or posibly ever.

Daver, fill Rich in on Kris Honel if you have the time.

Daver
01-07-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
I don't think Kris Honel can be counted on just yet or posibly ever. A HS kid is always going to be a ?, and from what I'm heard I'm not terribly encouraged.....If I was a betting man I would bet that Honel wasn't going to make it and if he did it would be as a marginal major leaguer...more the Todd Van Poppel of today rather than than what Todd was supposed to be....granted this is a post that if someone keeps I could be discredited in future arguments for along time to come...c'est la vie

Hey Rich,have you ever seen him pitch?Up close in person seen him pitch?

czalgosz
01-07-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by daver


Parque rarely makes it out of the fifth inning,when he's healthy,he is better suited for long releif.

Biddle has good control,you don't pitch inside the way he does without it sorry,I think you are mistaking control for stuff,his injury forced him change his release point and he lost the snap on his curve and the movement on his fastball from it,but it did not affect his control.


But then again what the hell do I know?

I agree with you, Daver, if it were me I'd put Biddle into the rotation and put Parque in the bullpen (I think that both the rotation and the bullpen would be better, Biddle has the endurance and stuff to be a good #4 starter, while Parque's bulldog mentality would serve him well in the 'pen) but since it isn't you or I making the decision, that won't happen. I think that unless Parque is absolutely horrible in the rotation or gets hurt again, he'll stay there.

RichH55
01-07-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by daver


Hey Rich,have you ever seen him pitch?Up close in person seen him pitch?


Nope....and sadly what I was referring too had nothing to do with his arm....I do hope I'm wrong on this, but the stories I've heard don't sound like he is going to have a Jerry Rice type commitment to his craft.....granted I don't get to hear many stories about athletes, but what I've heard(and I wont go any further than that with what I hope are weak accusations) is less than promising....But now that I've questioned everything but his pitching, I would like to hear about it Daver

RichH55
01-07-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I agree with you, Daver, if it were me I'd put Biddle into the rotation and put Parque in the bullpen (I think that both the rotation and the bullpen would be better, Biddle has the endurance and stuff to be a good #4 starter, while Parque's bulldog mentality would serve him well in the 'pen) but since it isn't you or I making the decision, that won't happen. I think that unless Parque is absolutely horrible in the rotation or gets hurt again, he'll stay there.

Biddle is coming off surgery, no? If we are talking next year than I favor Parque(coming off the less recent surgery) than Biddle, though unless Parque can show us something the rotation won't be his future

Daver
01-07-2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by RichH55



Nope....and sadly what I was referring too had nothing to do with his arm....I do hope I'm wrong on this, but the stories I've heard don't sound like he is going to have a Jerry Rice type commitment to his craft.....granted I don't get to hear many stories about athletes, but what I've heard(and I wont go any further than that with what I hope are weak accusations) is less than promising....But now that I've questioned everything but his pitching, I would like to hear about it Daver

I don't know where you are hearing the stories about his work ethic from,but their wrong.I know that for a fact.Having watched him pitch for 3 years all I can say is he is the best HS pitcher I have ever seen,including pitching a one hitter where he struck out 19 batters in 7 innings.I think the Sox should have drafted the guy that got the hit.

MattSharp
01-07-2002, 08:30 PM
A LOT of kids I went to high school with played with him in little league and travelning teams. They said he has a really big head, but he is damn good.

RichH55
01-08-2002, 12:36 AM
Like I said..I hope I'm wrong...and I'm not questioning his pitching talent in the least....but what I hear doesn't sound promising in terms of him reaching his potential..thats the last I'll say about it, but we will come back to this thread in a few years me thinks(well at least if I'm right:) )

kermittheefrog
01-08-2002, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by daver


I don't know where you are hearing the stories about his work ethic from,but their wrong.I know that for a fact.Having watched him pitch for 3 years all I can say is he is the best HS pitcher I have ever seen,including pitching a one hitter where he struck out 19 batters in 7 innings.I think the Sox should have drafted the guy that got the hit.

Daver I think you are overreacting. Actual baseball scouts were calling Todd Van Poppel one of the best HS pitchers ever and see what happened. The problem isn't with Honel or Todd VP it's just HS pitchers are too young and too far away from being major league ready to be able to successfully project. Honel hasn't even pitched an inning of low A ball. He's probably going to have a major arm injury for the first time in his life sometime in the next couple years and no one knows how he'll bounce back. His course to the majors will be so long it's next to impossible to predict whether he'll be a star or a bust. Nothing against Kris but the path to the majors he's chosen, via HS, has an excessive failure rate among pitchers. No matter how good he was in HS isn't not likely he'll be a solid major leaguer.

guillen4life13
01-08-2002, 04:56 PM
look... only time will tell. for all we know he'll be the next roger clemens or maddux. 4 all we no he'll be the next jaime navarro. wait and find out

Daver
01-08-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Daver I think you are overreacting. Actual baseball scouts were calling Todd Van Poppel one of the best HS pitchers ever and see what happened. The problem isn't with Honel or Todd VP it's just HS pitchers are too young and too far away from being major league ready to be able to successfully project. Honel hasn't even pitched an inning of low A ball. He's probably going to have a major arm injury for the first time in his life sometime in the next couple years and no one knows how he'll bounce back. His course to the majors will be so long it's next to impossible to predict whether he'll be a star or a bust. Nothing against Kris but the path to the majors he's chosen, via HS, has an excessive failure rate among pitchers. No matter how good he was in HS isn't not likely he'll be a solid major leaguer.

Kermit,I never said anything about his pro potential,all I said was that he is the best HS pitcher I have ever seen.

kermittheefrog
01-08-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by daver


Kermit,I never said anything about his pro potential,all I said was that he is the best HS pitcher I have ever seen.

I dunno about that daver, you've been hyping Honel big time.

Daver
01-08-2002, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I dunno about that daver, you've been hyping Honel big time.

I don't recall commenting on his pro potential,I stated that he was a good choice as a draft choice,and I commented on watching him pitch for three years,but I never said he was a lock to make it in the pro's.In this thread I stated that he was a work in progress that is at least two years away from getting a chance to make this team.I do know the difference between potential and proven quality.