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Fenway
01-28-2006, 10:52 AM
That might not be the extent of Tribe General Manager Mark Shapiro's machinations. Cincinnati Reds interim General Manager Brad Kullman confirmed that Shapiro is proposing a deal that would bring power-hitting outfielder Austin Kearns to Cleveland and send right-handed starter Jake Westbrook to the Reds.

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/13734936.htm

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 10:56 AM
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/13734936.htm

I heard that yesterday... it is interesting certainly... I looked up Weavers stats vs us at the Cell last year... 6IP 2R 1ER 4K's would also be interesting to see how the pitching coach handles 3 new SP's

HomeFish
01-28-2006, 11:35 AM
Can't say I'd be sorry to see Westbrook leave the AL Central.

doublem23
01-28-2006, 01:10 PM
Solid #2 starting pitcher for oft-injured outfielder? Pull the trigger, Mark!

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 01:12 PM
Solid #2 starting pitcher for oft-injured outfielder? Pull the trigger, Mark!

LOL he's doing all he can to prove that GM of the Year award was a farce

Clarkdog
01-28-2006, 01:16 PM
Though Kearns is an impact hitter - it feels like the Indians are going backwards right now. Sizemore/Crisp was as good as 1 and 2 as there was in the MLB in the second half. And it was thier pitching/bullpen that kept them in all those games. Losing Westbrook and the Millwood, and replacing them with Weaver?

I don't know - but I certainly like our chances even more now.

doublem23
01-28-2006, 01:43 PM
I think the Indians would be favorites in any other division, but the White Sox are clearly the best team in the American League and probably all of baseball. If Jim Thome stays healthy and the starters pitch like they can all year long, there's no way Cleveland finishes within 10 games of the Sox this year.

Definitely my odd-on favorite to win the Wild Card. The Blue Jays, Orioles, and Devil Rays IMO are going to be tougher on Boston and New York than the Twins, Tigers, and Royals will be on the Tribe. The West is too weak to send two teams to the post-season, IMO.

I'm pulling for the Tribe, because it'll be nice to finally have a post-season with one (or maybe even neither) the Yankees or Red Sox.

Ultimately when this season shakes down, without accounting for unpredictable injuries, I wouldn't be surprised if the Toons are the consensus 2nd best team in the division. All-Central ALCS? It'll be nice to beat them on a national stage.

santo=dorf
01-28-2006, 01:55 PM
Jake Westbrook is overrated. He's very similar to Jon Garland, however it would be stupid for Cleveland to trade him for Austin Kearns (I thought They already turned down this trade?)

I will laugh my butt off if Cleveland loses Millwood, Westbrook, Howry, Rhodes, Riske and Elarton and replaces them Byrd, Jason Johnson, Jeff Weaver, Mota, and Danny Graves. :rolling:

EDIT: How can I forget about dead arm Mota?

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Jake Westbrook is overrated. He's very similar to Jon Garland, however it would be stupid for Cleveland to trade him for Austin Kearns (I thought They already turned down this trade?)

I will laugh my butt off if Cleveland loses Millwood, Westbrook, Howry, Rhodes, Riske and Elarton and replaces them Byrd, Jason Johnson, Jeff Weaver, and Danny Graves. :rolling:

I like your sig... you should also include games in it.... As much as I liked frank I think he gets in even less than 20

santo=dorf
01-28-2006, 02:11 PM
I like your sig... you should also include games in it.... As much as I liked frank I think he gets in even less than 20

I was thinking of games, but I'm betting Frank has quite a few "games" where he comes in for one pinch hit at bat. (Pretty much all of interleague on the road.)

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 02:14 PM
I was thinking of games, but I'm betting Frank has quite a few "games" where he comes in for one pinch hit at bat. (Pretty much all of interleague on the road.) Good point... course the same thing could be said of Thome...

santo=dorf
01-28-2006, 02:28 PM
Good point... course the same thing could be said of Thome...
I'm guessing Thome will get at least one full game in each interleague road series, and possibly two because there are more right handed starting pitchers. Plus Konerko will be in his usual pre-summer funk.

munchman33
01-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Plus Konerko will be in his usual pre-summer funk.

No need for teal. Konerko is the definition of a streaky hitter. He's streakier than Ventura was. But when he's on, he sure can carry a team.

MERPER
01-28-2006, 03:02 PM
The thing that concerned me most about the Indians was their great starting pitching.... it seemed like EVERY time we played them, it was a close game and we had to outpitch them... of course, we did nearly every time (particullarly at CLE) but we have trouble hitting all their starters

Since the end of last season, they have lost Elarton (who really looked good near the end of last season)... and Millwood (AL ERA leader)....

If they make this trade, that will only leave them with Sabathia and Lee from last season... Minus Rhodes and Riske in the pen.... no more Sox-killer Coco Crisp...

Is it just me or have they gone backward... I still think they'll put up a fight, but I am less worried about the Tribe at this point in time then I was when the offseason began

Brian26
01-28-2006, 09:26 PM
Can't say I'd be sorry to see Westbrook leave the AL Central.

Wow. What a ridiculous trade for the Indians to make. One step forward, two steps back. I can't believe they would consider trading their 2005 #1 starter for a dime-a-dozen outfielder.

Professor
01-28-2006, 09:47 PM
I think getting Marte was smart. But I'm not sure about this move... I am glad we are sticking with pitching, though.

Tragg
01-28-2006, 10:38 PM
I think the Marte move was a real good move for Cleveland - long term at least. They have a poor 3B right now, and they may have solved that problem for a while.

This move, I'm not so sure about.

munchman33
01-28-2006, 11:01 PM
This trade would obviously be contingent on signing Jeff Weaver to replace Westbrook. If that's the case, it's not a bad move.

caulfield12
01-29-2006, 05:37 PM
I think the Indians would be favorites in any other division, but the White Sox are clearly the best team in the American League and probably all of baseball. If Jim Thome stays healthy and the starters pitch like they can all year long, there's no way Cleveland finishes within 10 games of the Sox this year.

Definitely my odd-on favorite to win the Wild Card. The Blue Jays, Orioles, and Devil Rays IMO are going to be tougher on Boston and New York than the Twins, Tigers, and Royals will be on the Tribe. The West is too weak to send two teams to the post-season, IMO.

I'm pulling for the Tribe, because it'll be nice to finally have a post-season with one (or maybe even neither) the Yankees or Red Sox.

Ultimately when this season shakes down, without accounting for unpredictable injuries, I wouldn't be surprised if the Toons are the consensus 2nd best team in the division. All-Central ALCS? It'll be nice to beat them on a national stage.

The As have even more depth than the White Sox in their pitching staff, and the Angels are never to be counted out while they have a healthy Vladimir Guerrero. They look to get better production by dumping Finley for Erstad and seeing how a healthy McPherson and Kotchmann can do. K. Escobar will nicely slide back into the rotation. With Lackey, Colon, Santana, Escobar

The Ms have to get better eventually and the Rangers certainly improved their starting pitching with the additions of Millwood and Eaton, while not having to give up Blalock simultaneously. A. Soriano has always looked better on paper than in reality.

Chisox003
01-29-2006, 05:54 PM
The As have even more depth than the White Sox in their pitching staff, and the Angels are never to be counted out while they have a healthy Vladimir Guerrero. They look to get better production by dumping Finley for Erstad and seeing how a healthy McPherson and Kotchmann can do. K. Escobar will nicely slide back into the rotation. With Lackey, Colon, Santana, Escobar

The Ms have to get better eventually and the Rangers certainly improved their starting pitching with the additions of Millwood and Eaton, while not having to give up Blalock simultaneously. A. Soriano has always looked better on paper than in reality.
The A's pitching staff is very good, don't get me wrong, but how do you figure they have more depth than the White Sox?

Trust me, I'm not being a homer here....I really don't see it

Edit: Zito, Harden, Haren, Blanton, Loaiza ..... Calero, Kennedy, Meyer, Saarloos, all SP's probably coming out of the Pen. That is a pretty good staff.....Plus Street, Witasick, Gaudin, Cruz, Duschecher. Hmm......You could be right.

palehozenychicty
01-30-2006, 11:13 AM
The A's pitching staff is very good, don't get me wrong, but how do you figure they have more depth than the White Sox?

Trust me, I'm not being a homer here....I really don't see it

Edit: Zito, Harden, Haren, Blanton, Loaiza ..... Calero, Kennedy, Meyer, Saarloos, all SP's probably coming out of the Pen. That is a pretty good staff.....Plus Street, Witasick, Gaudin, Cruz, Duschecher. Hmm......You could be right.


Right now, I think that the A's or Angels will challenge the Sox for the ALCS. The only problem with the A's is that they don't even start playing until June. And if Frank can play 110 games, and Harden make 25 starts.

sullythered
01-30-2006, 11:22 AM
And if Frank can play 110 games, and Harden make 25 starts.

Huge "if's."

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 11:24 AM
The A's pitching staff is very good, don't get me wrong, but how do you figure they have more depth than the White Sox?

Trust me, I'm not being a homer here....I really don't see it

Edit: Zito, Harden, Haren, Blanton, Loaiza ..... Calero, Kennedy, Meyer, Saarloos, all SP's probably coming out of the Pen. That is a pretty good staff.....Plus Street, Witasick, Gaudin, Cruz, Duschecher. Hmm......You could be right.

The Sox have the advantage at every single pitching slot. Buehrle>Zito. Contreras=Harden. Garcia=Haren. Garland>Blanton. Vazquez>Loaiza. McCarthy>any of their chumps in the pen.

The "depth" consists of guys who've mostly been inconsistent and mediocre at best as starters - Saarloos, Kennedy, Calero. Plus Meyer, who's coming off of arm surgery, IIRC.

Color me unimpressed. Compared to the rest of the league, it's good. But compared to the Sox, meh.

caulfield12
01-30-2006, 01:04 PM
The Sox have the advantage at every single pitching slot. Buehrle>Zito. Contreras=Harden. Garcia=Haren. Garland>Blanton. Vazquez>Loaiza. McCarthy>any of their chumps in the pen.

The "depth" consists of guys who've mostly been inconsistent and mediocre at best as starters - Saarloos, Kennedy, Calero. Plus Meyer, who's coming off of arm surgery, IIRC.

Color me unimpressed. Compared to the rest of the league, it's good. But compared to the Sox, meh.

I don´t think the A´s would trade H. Street for Jenks. Duscherer was murder on us.

I don´t think you can definitively say Zito is better than Buehrle. For the last two seasons, sure. But over their careers, very similar, probably a slight edge to Zito. If Buehrle continues to succeed and Zito spins his wheels this year, I would agree Buerhle is better.

Blanton has a lot of potential...he was effective at an earlier point in his career than Garland, albeit he had college experience and was not learning on the job in the majors like Jon. This will be a big year for both to prove 2005 was not a mirage.

Whoever said Westbrook was the Indians´ number one starter....well, you can make a case for Lee and Millwood as well, and Sabathia is generally acknowledged as the best pure talent of the group and the one who would attract the most attention on the FA market.

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 01:14 PM
I donīt think the Aīs would trade H. Street for Jenks. Duscherer was murder on us.

I donīt think you can definitively say Zito is better than Buehrle. For the last two seasons, sure. But over their careers, very similar, probably a slight edge to Zito. If Buehrle continues to succeed and Zito spins his wheels this year, I would agree Buerhle is better.

Blanton has a lot of potential...he was effective at an earlier point in his career than Garland, albeit he had college experience and was not learning on the job in the majors like Jon. This will be a big year for both to prove 2005 was not a mirage.

Whoever said Westbrook was the Indiansī number one starter....well, you can make a case for Lee and Millwood as well, and Sabathia is generally acknowledged as the best pure talent of the group and the one who would attract the most attention on the FA market.

Similarly, I doubt that KW would trade Jenks for Street. They have similar value, so each team probably would rather keep the guy they have. The A's do have a very good pen, but I don't know that I'd rate it better than the Sox, probably even - Jenks, Politte, Cotts, Hermanson, McCarthy are the equivalent of Street, Duscherer, etc.

As for Zito, he & Buehrle have very similar total stats the past 3 years. The difference is that Zito's ERA & WHIP have been climbing as his K rates have been declining the past few years, whereas Buehrle's the model of consistency. Mark's also a year younger.

Foulke You
01-30-2006, 03:34 PM
While I don't think the Tribe has taken giant steps backward, on paper at least, it seems like the '06 Tribe won't be as intimidating as the '05 version. Millwood and Howry were stellar for them last year and they've lost two Sox Killers in Coco Crisp and Arthur Rhodes whose success against the Sox dates back to his M's days. Also, a Tribe bullpen that is missing Howry, Rhodes, and Riske warms this Sox fan's heart. Mota is a big question mark after surgery.

If they trade Westbrook, I would have to think that they must think they have Weaver all but locked up. I would say Weaver and Westbrook are about the same caliber of pitcher except that we hit Weaver a whole lot better than Westbrook. I just don't think Shapiro is THAT stupid to trade away a reliable starter for just Kearns and leave a huge hole in the rotation. He knows he has to lock horns with a White Sox team that will likely feature 18 game winner Jon Garland as our #5 starter! Does anyone know if the Indians have a Brandon McCarthy type pitcher waiting in the wings in AAA if a deal like this is made? I don't recall hearing about any.

So far, if I'm a Tribe fan, I'm not liking the direction my team is going this offseason. If they trade Westbrook, I would easily say that the Twins rotation is going to be better next year than the Tribe's.

caulfield12
01-30-2006, 04:10 PM
While I don't think the Tribe has taken giant steps backward, on paper at least, it seems like the '06 Tribe won't be as intimidating as the '05 version. Millwood and Howry were stellar for them last year and they've lost two Sox Killers in Coco Crisp and Arthur Rhodes whose success against the Sox dates back to his M's days. Also, a Tribe bullpen that is missing Howry, Rhodes, and Riske warms this Sox fan's heart. Mota is a big question mark after surgery.

If they trade Westbrook, I would have to think that they must think they have Weaver all but locked up. I would say Weaver and Westbrook are about the same caliber of pitcher except that we hit Weaver a whole lot better than Westbrook. I just don't think Shapiro is THAT stupid to trade away a reliable starter for just Kearns and leave a huge hole in the rotation. He knows he has to lock horns with a White Sox team that will likely feature 18 game winner Jon Garland as our #5 starter! Does anyone know if the Indians have a Brandon McCarthy type pitcher waiting in the wings in AAA if a deal like this is made? I don't recall hearing about any.

So far, if I'm a Tribe fan, I'm not liking the direction my team is going this offseason. If they trade Westbrook, I would easily say that the Twins rotation is going to be better next year than the Tribe's.

That would be the ultimate trump card for them to replace Michaels-Hollandsworth with Kearns and then plug in Jeff Weaver.

Psychologically, they would feel they were at least even coming into the season with us...and you have the interesting coincidence of Boras as the agent for both players.

The only thing that makes me feel it wonīt happen is the fact that the Indians let Millwood walk and have been loath to spend huge money on pitchers like a Burnett or Weaver that are more scoutsī darlings than effective pitchers. I was surprised by the Byrd signing, though.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 04:20 PM
Are we talking about this (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=400290) Austin Kearns? What's so great? His sporty .240 BA? Those 18 HR? The guy K's in more than one-fourth of his AB. When Joe Crede put up those kind of numbers everyone wanted to get rid of him.

caulfield12
01-30-2006, 04:40 PM
Are we talking about this (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=400290) Austin Kearns? What's so great? His sporty .240 BA? Those 18 HR? The guy K's in more than one-fourth of his AB. When Joe Crede put up those kind of numbers everyone wanted to get rid of him.

Last time I checked, Crede was not close to being a career .260-.270 hitter (WE would ALL be overjoyed with that) and his career RBI numbers and productivity are closer to the 65-80 range per season than 90 plus.

Over a full season, he would project to 24 homers and 94 RBI´s based on his career averages. That is pretty comparable to Carlos Lee, actually. His career BA is .266, and he is over .800 for OPS.

He is certainly a lot better option than either Michaels or Hollandsworth.

Of course, if he is healthy...but didn´t we ask the same questions about Dye before last season in SoxLand?

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 04:55 PM
Last time I checked, Crede was not close to being a career .260-.270 hitter (WE would ALL be overjoyed with that) and his career RBI numbers and productivity are closer to the 65-80 range per season than 90 plus.

Over a full season, he would project to 24 homers and 94 RBIīs based on his career averages. That is pretty comparable to Carlos Lee, actually. His career BA is .266, and he is over .800 for OPS.

He is certainly a lot better option than either Michaels or Hollandsworth.

Of course, if he is healthy...but didnīt we ask the same questions about Dye before last season in SoxLand?90 plus RBI???? What Austin Kearns are you talking about? This one (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=400290) has never topped 67 RBI. He's Kerry Wood - had a great rookie season and has been living off it ever since. He hit .240 last year and .230 the year before. As a matter of fact, Crede out-hit him in each of the last two seasons.

caulfield12
01-30-2006, 05:08 PM
90 plus RBI???? What Austin Kearns are you talking about? This one (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=400290) has never topped 67 RBI. He's Kerry Wood - had a great rookie season and has been living off it ever since. He hit .240 last year and .230 the year before. As a matter of fact, Crede out-hit him in each of the last two seasons.

Kearns
1268 career at-bats
55 homers
213 RBIīs
.266 career batting average

55 divided 1268 X 502 equals 22 homers
213 divided 1268 X 502 equals 84 RBIīs
.822 OPS

Joe Crede
1722 career at-bats
74 homers
251 rbis
.255 career BA
.742 OPS
projections for 502 abīs, 22 homers, 73 RBIīs

Fairly similar players...but Kearns has the advantage offensively in every category

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 05:13 PM
Kearns
1268 career at-bats
55 homers
213 RBIīs
.266 career batting average

55 divided 1268 X 502 equals 22 homers
213 divided 1268 X 502 equals 84 RBIīs
.822 OPS

Joe Crede
1722 career at-bats
74 homers
251 rbis
.255 career BA
.742 OPS
projections for 502 abīs, 22 homers, 73 RBIīs

Fairly similar players...but Kearns has the advantage offensively in every categoryKearns' numbers are inflated by his never-repeated rookie season. Do the same math over the last three seasons.

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 05:24 PM
Kearns' numbers are inflated by his never-repeated rookie season. Do the same math over the last three seasons.

Kearns '03 & '04 were cut short by injuries. So in "full" seasons, he's got 1 good and one poor. He's still young. And his minor league record is pretty good.

He's a risk, but he's not a bad one. And he's got very high upside. The problem for the Indians is that in trading Westbrook for Weaver (assuming that's what they do), they get an equivalent or worse pitcher who's a ton more expensive.

caulfield12
01-30-2006, 05:31 PM
Kearns '03 & '04 were cut short by injuries. So in "full" seasons, he's got 1 good and one poor. He's still young. And his minor league record is pretty good.

He's a risk, but he's not a bad one. And he's got very high upside. The problem for the Indians is that in trading Westbrook for Weaver (assuming that's what they do), they get an equivalent or worse pitcher who's a ton more expensive.

Not to mention the fact that there is more than a 2 year age difference between Crede and Kearns.

Westbrook will make $4.25 million this season...and I imagine Weaver would cost twice that, so we will see what they decide to do. Kearns should be getting pretty close to his arbitration years, so he is one good season statistically from being in the $3-4 salary million range.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 05:31 PM
Kearns '03 & '04 were cut short by injuries. So in "full" seasons, he's got 1 good and one poor. He's still young. And his minor league record is pretty good.

He's a risk, but he's not a bad one. And he's got very high upside. The problem for the Indians is that in trading Westbrook for Weaver (assuming that's what they do), they get an equivalent or worse pitcher who's a ton more expensive.The only good one was his rookie year and he hasn't come close to those numbers since. Cutting a season short doesn't change his BA of .230 and .240 in the last two seasons. And he still managed to strike out 178 times. The point was, when Joe Crede was putting up those kind of numbers (a lot fewer K's, though), everyone wanted to dump him. I don't see what's so great about Austin Kearns, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade Jake Westbrook for him.

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 05:50 PM
The only good one was his rookie year and he hasn't come close to those numbers since. Cutting a season short doesn't change his BA of .230 and .240 in the last two seasons. And he still managed to strike out 178 times. The point was, when Joe Crede was putting up those kind of numbers (a lot fewer K's, though), everyone wanted to dump him. I don't see what's so great about Austin Kearns, and I sure as hell wouldn't trade Jake Westbrook for him.

Seasons cut dramatically short by injury almost always have low #s, because most injuries are ones guys try to play through.

Kearns is currently injury-prone, there's pretty much no disputing that fact right now. He's never posted more than 387ABs. But he posted a VERY good rookie season in 2002 with a .900+OPS at the tender age of 22. He followed that up with a strong start to 2003, only to fall off the table prior to hitting the DL. He was hurt most of '04. In '05, sure he had a bad year, but you're talking about 1.5 good years and 1.5 bad years in which injuries were a factor for a guy who's still only 25.

This isn't Joe Borchard. This is a guy who's done it at the major league level. 2006 will kind of define him I think. If he has another poor year or injured one, you can basically write him off. but it would be all that unlikely for him to get back to some semblance of 2002, which would make him a very good player.

But as I noted, Westbrook +$5M for Kearns+Weaver isn't a great deal for the Tribe because they have offense and need pitching.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 06:05 PM
Seasons cut dramatically short by injury almost always have low #s, because most injuries are ones guys try to play through.

Kearns is currently injury-prone, there's pretty much no disputing that fact right now. He's never posted more than 387ABs. But he posted a VERY good rookie season in 2002 with a .900+OPS at the tender age of 22. He followed that up with a strong start to 2003, only to fall off the table prior to hitting the DL. He was hurt most of '04. In '05, sure he had a bad year, but you're talking about 1.5 good years and 1.5 bad years in which injuries were a factor for a guy who's still only 25.

This isn't Joe Borchard. This is a guy who's done it at the major league level. 2006 will kind of define him I think. If he has another poor year or injured one, you can basically write him off. but it would be all that unlikely for him to get back to some semblance of 2002, which would make him a very good player.

But as I noted, Westbrook +$5M for Kearns+Weaver isn't a great deal for the Tribe because they have offense and need pitching.His injuries seem to be in 2003 and especially 2004. In 2005 he was sent down to the minors in June after losing his roster spot to Wily Mo Pena. He was hitting .224 at the time (link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2083614)). No mention of injury. He had a decent July-August, then dropped back down to .218 in Sept.

I'm biased against really high SO guys unless they can smack 40+ HR and 130+ RBI. It's pretty hard to be an effective hitter when you K one-fourth of your AB.