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Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 07:06 AM
I was wondering last night about our batting order for next season.... I was curious on what everyone thought about Thome batting #2 vs. Righties.... Now don't call me nuts yet....

Has anyone ever seen a team bat a basestealer leadoff and follow him in the order with a bulky lefty? Most of the time that Pods gets caught he's caught by a split second... If the catcher can't see him take off because he has a big lefty in the batters box, wouldn't that be just that split second that Pods would need to swipe the base? I know the SS or 2B usually runs over to cover the bag and that is the catchers queue to throw down but what if Pods faked a run to second every once in a while to throw off the catcher/middle infielders...

Vs. Left handed pitchers the element of surprise is somewhat more limited because of improved pickoff attempt/fact that Thome doesn't do well against them...... So... here goes

Potential lineups

VS. Righties

Pods
Thome
Dye
Konerko
Gooch
AJ/Crede
AJ/Crede
Uribe
Anderson

VS. Lefties

Pods
Uribe
Thome
Konerko
Dye
Gooch
AJ/Crede
AJ/Crede
Anderson

Have fun at tearing me a new one...

ilsox7
01-28-2006, 07:09 AM
I was wondering last night about our batting order for next season.... I was curious on what everyone thought about Thome batting #2 vs. Righties.... Now don't call me nuts yet....

Has anyone ever seen a team bat a basestealer leadoff and follow him in the order with a bulky lefty? Most of the time that Pods gets caught he's caught by a split second... If the catcher can't see him take off because he has a big lefty in the batters box, wouldn't that be just that split second that Pods would need to swipe the base? I know the SS or 2B usually runs over to cover the bag and that is the catchers queue to throw down but what if Pods faked a run to second every once in a while to throw off the catcher/middle infielders...

Vs. Left handed pitchers the element of surprise is somewhat more limited because of improved pickoff attempt/fact that Thome doesn't do well against them...... So... here goes

Potential lineups

VS. Righties VS. Lefties

Pods Pods
Thome Uribe
Dye Thome
Konerko Konerko
Gooch Dye
AJ/Crede Gooch
AJ/Crede AJ
Uribe Crede
Anderson Anderson

Have fun at tearing me a new one...

No. The #2 hitter needs to be a guy who can give himself up to get Pods over for the big boys. The last thing we need is Thome giving himself up in ABs.

The Critic
01-28-2006, 07:12 AM
I would not hit Thome 2nd under any circumstances.
Power guys need to be in the middle of the order.
I'm still not sold on Uribe in the 2 hole, but we'll see how it works out. I just hope he has the patience necessary to do the job.

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 07:14 AM
No. The #2 hitter needs to be a guy who can give himself up to get Pods over for the big boys. The last thing we need is Thome giving himself up in ABs.

Is he necessarily giving himself up though? Consider the idea that Pods steals on either 1st-4th pitch.... Now he's in scoring position no outs and a lefty up vs. a righty...

ilsox7
01-28-2006, 07:17 AM
Is he necessarily giving himself up though? Consider the idea that Pods steals on either 1st-4th pitch.... Now he's in scoring position no outs and a lefty up vs. a righty...

Think of all the times Iguchi took good strikes waiting for Pods to run, or hit weak grounders to the right side to move Pods. You do not bat Thome #2 for any good reason.

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 07:24 AM
Think of all the times Iguchi took good strikes waiting for Pods to run, or hit weak grounders to the right side to move Pods. You do not bat Thome #2 for any good reason.

True.... fair enough responses.... I was kind of curious as its never been done before that I know of... Thought it might be a way to sneak Pods extra SB's. Sure it would decrease Thome's RBI totals over the course of a season but I thought it might potentially lead to more runs scored overall.. I totally understand your guys side of the arguement though too...

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 07:26 AM
I would not hit Thome 2nd under any circumstances.
Power guys need to be in the middle of the order.
I'm still not sold on Uribe in the 2 hole, but we'll see how it works out. I just hope he has the patience necessary to do the job.

I think uribe will do quite well in the 2 hole actually... Between Pods and Thome he should see lots of fastballs.... We know he hits those well; breaking stuff is what kills him

The Critic
01-28-2006, 07:58 AM
I think uribe will do quite well in the 2 hole actually... Between Pods and Thome he should see lots of fastballs.... We know he hits those well; breaking stuff is what kills him

I hope you're right. I know Juan crushes the heater, I'm just wondering if he can resist hacking at one if Pods gets a great jump, and what kind of success he has hitting the ball to the right side. Seems to me that the overwhelming majority of his hits go to LF and LC. I could be wrong about that, but the screaming liner to the left-center gap is what springs to mind when I think about Juan.

Scottiehaswheels
01-28-2006, 08:09 AM
I hope you're right. I know Juan crushes the heater, I'm just wondering if he can resist hacking at one if Pods gets a great jump, and what kind of success he has hitting the ball to the right side. Seems to me that the overwhelming majority of his hits go to LF and LC. I could be wrong about that, but the screaming liner to the left-center gap is what springs to mind when I think about Juan.

Don't forget he also led the team last year in Sac's.... he is a pull hitter but I think with the patience at the plate that being the #2 requires he will develop some better discipline

fquaye149
01-28-2006, 08:35 AM
Is he necessarily giving himself up though? Consider the idea that Pods steals on either 1st-4th pitch.... Now he's in scoring position no outs and a lefty up vs. a righty...

If a #2 hitter has a runner on 2nd with no outs it is a failed at bat if he does not hit it to the right side. You don't want to take over half the field away from a player who, if healthy, is our best hitter.

soxinem1
01-28-2006, 08:57 AM
Is he necessarily giving himself up though? Consider the idea that Pods steals on either 1st-4th pitch.... Now he's in scoring position no outs and a lefty up vs. a righty...

Considering that he is going to KO at least 150 times, I don't think second is his spot, I think fifth is better for him at this stage in his career, and maybe third against certain pitchers.

ChiSoxLifer
01-29-2006, 01:42 AM
I was wondering last night about our batting order for next season.... I was curious on what everyone thought about Thome batting #2 vs. Righties.... Now don't call me nuts yet....



Have fun at tearing me a new one...

But...can Thome bunt?

Chisox003
01-29-2006, 01:45 AM
Jim Thome ..... batting 2nd?!? :o: :thud:

:hawk
"Your WHAT hurts?!"

:cool:

Mohoney
01-29-2006, 02:43 AM
I think uribe will do quite well in the 2 hole actually... Between Pods and Thome he should see lots of fastballs.... We know he hits those well; breaking stuff is what kills him

For some reason, I can't bring myself to take Tadahito out of the #2 spot. He's definitely a team-first, quality professional ballplayer. There are definitely going to be opportunities to hit for power in the #2 spot when the opposing pitcher is using a slide-step to counter Pods, so I find myself going against the notion that Tadahito's power potential is wasted batting #2.

Yes, he had a mediocre (at best) postseason, but he also single-handedly gave us the lead in the pivotal game 2 against Boston when Buehrle choked early and Boston tagged him for 4 runs in the first 3 innings. Tadahito gave Buehrle a clean slate, Buehrle was nails in the 6th and the 7th, Jenks got the 2 inning save, and the rest is history.

In my opinion, that homer broke Boston's back, and it was the first truly magical moment of our postseason.

ilsox7
01-29-2006, 02:49 AM
For some reason, I can't bring myself to take Tadahito out of the #2 spot. He's definitely a team-first, quality professional ballplayer. There are definitely going to be opportunities to hit for power in the #2 spot when the opposing pitcher is using a slide-step to counter Pods, so I find myself going against the notion that Tadahito's power potential is wasted batting #2.

Yes, he had a mediocre (at best) postseason, but he also single-handedly gave us the lead in the pivotal game 2 against Boston when Buehrle choked early and Boston tagged him for 4 runs in the first 3 innings. Tadahito gave Buehrle a clean slate, Buehrle was nails in the 6th and the 7th, Jenks got the 2 inning save, and the rest is history.

In my opinion, that homer broke Boston's back, and it was the first truly magical moment of our postseason.

Nothing wrong with experimenting in spring training with Uribe in the #2 hole.

And no decision will or should be made based on 1 post season moment. If that were the case, Geof Blum would still be on this team, along with Willie Harris.

Mohoney
01-29-2006, 03:07 AM
And no decision will or should be made based on 1 post season moment. If that were the case, Geof Blum would still be on this team, along with Willie Harris.

It's not 1 postseason moment. I just used that INSANELY CLUTCH hit as a microcosm.

Tadahito was one of the best #2 hitters in the game last year. Remember our hot start in April? Gooch hit .333 that month. When all is said and done, the guy posted a .278/.342 line in his 1st year in MLB. Not bad at all, when you figure in how many "productive outs" he had, plus 11 sacrifice hits and 6 sacrifice flies.

When you add in 25 2B, 15 HR, and 71 RBI, I think that seals it that I'm not basing his performance on 1 postseason game.

ilsox7
01-29-2006, 03:10 AM
It's not 1 postseason moment. I just used that INSANELY CLUTCH hit as a microcosm.

Tadahito was one of the best #2 hitters in the game last year. Remember our hot start in April? Gooch hit .333 that month. When all is said and done, the guy posted a .278/.342 line in his 1st year in MLB. Not bad at all, when you figure in how many "productive outs" he had, plus 11 sacrifice hits and 6 sacrifice flies.

When you add in 25 2B, 15 HR, and 71 RBI, I think that seals it that I'm not basing his performance on 1 postseason game.

I completely agree with you, but I also think it is worth a shot to see what Uribe can do in the 2 hole. I just thought you were going down a bad track with the post season mention, but now that you've mentioned that you simply wanted to use it as a representative sample of his year, I agree.

Fake Chet Lemon
01-29-2006, 10:25 PM
Uribe got better as the season went along in terms of taking pitches. I remember being shocked a couple of time in the second half when Uribe walked after having an 0-2 count. To experiment in Spring Training is a good idea. Even if it doesn't work out, at least Uribe will practice more plate discipline. I think Ozzie is doing this to challenge and develop Uribe just as much as he is trying to get Iguchi more RBI's. In a pinch, I wonder if Crede could bat second 10-12 times a year? I think so.

soxinem1
01-30-2006, 01:12 PM
Uribe got better as the season went along in terms of taking pitches. I remember being shocked a couple of time in the second half when Uribe walked after having an 0-2 count. To experiment in Spring Training is a good idea. Even if it doesn't work out, at least Uribe will practice more plate discipline. I think Ozzie is doing this to challenge and develop Uribe just as much as he is trying to get Iguchi more RBI's. In a pinch, I wonder if Crede could bat second 10-12 times a year? I think so.

I actually think Crede may be the best option of the group. And contrary to other posts, he does not KO that much. Since 2003:

536AB, 75K
490AB, 69K
432AB, 66K

That's not all that bad from a contact standpoint, it's actually better than either Podsednik, Iguchi, or Uribe based on career numbers.

At the same token, I wouldn't be all that giddy of moving Iguchi off the second spot. We thought Rowand would tear apart the number 5-6 spots after he started drilling in the #2 in 2004, but it never happened. Plus, everything in Iguchi's prior history states he will KO a lot, as his ML numbers were similar to his Japanese League ones in that respect.

Both Crede and Uribe have bat control issues, but I think Joe may benefit more, if Pods is running like he did the first part of the season, he has a more consistent swing on fastballs than Uribe does.

Uribe, does however, have a knack for nailing quite a few loud hits in the gaps.

So hey, give them both a shot, and see what happens.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 01:22 PM
FWIW, Ozzie said he was going to try Uribe in the #2 spot in spring training, but if it didn't work out he was going back to Iguchi hitting second. I'm betting on the latter.

MUScholar21
01-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Actually, hitting Thome second would be fun to see - pitchers could either give up the stolen base to Pods by committing to a breaking ball, or leave Thome a fastball to avoid the steal. You could only do that once or twice in a season, and only if Pods was running well AND Thome was crushing the ball.

You can't have Thome giving himself up, and you are also forgetting that the reason we GOT him was left-handed protection for Pauly. Batting him second eliminates his strengths though, and I personally have waited TOO LONG to see a left-handed power hitter in a White Sox uniform (no offense Jose Valentin)

SBSoxFan
01-31-2006, 10:20 AM
Anyone remember the '83 batting order of

1) Rudy Law
2) Carlton Fisk

?

MikeLove
01-31-2006, 03:58 PM
where was Uribe hitting in the order when he came out like gangbusters in 2004? (i think that was the year)

mccombe_35
01-31-2006, 06:08 PM
Thome batting 2nd is an interesting idea to me. The 2 spot doesn't have to be a spot where a player is constantly giving themselves up to move a runner over. Carlos Lee put up great numbers from the 2 hole a few years back, & ARod hit 2nd for the Yanks for the last month in '05 & drove in & scored 25 runs in the month.

lostletters
02-01-2006, 02:38 PM
People often forget that Uribe was the number 2 hitter for the white sox before stone fingers, I mean Jose Valentine came back in 2004. He was doing a damn fine job at it as well. In fact I think Jose Valentine screwed up the white sox when he came back in 2004, because he knocked both Uribe and Harris playing on a daily basis (Jose Valentine was a AWFUL fielder during that year, and even though he had good power, Uribe and Harris were both better hitters).

Uribe is capable of doing the number 2 job. In fact I have noticed he is a significantly better hitter when he is batting with a purpose. (Either to bunt, hit to the opposite field, sac fly, etc). He lacks the necessary plate discipline when nobody is on. It is just something I noticed after watching Uribe play for the couple of years he has been with the white sox. Uribe with somebody on is completely different then the Uribe with nobody on. He can have plate discipline, but it usually requires a baserunner.

Frater Perdurabo
02-01-2006, 02:53 PM
Jose Valentine

Please, for the love of all that is good, can we please spell his name properly? Goodness knows this is one of the most frequent errors around here; your misspelling is just the latest of thousands in this regard. Nevertheless, his last name is spelled:

V A L E N T I N

There is no "e" on the end. In Spanish, the letter "i" is pronounced like the long "e" in English. The much more efficient Spanish language does not need an "e" at the end of the sentence to make the first vowel long.

Manos' name is not spelled like the other name for Feb. 14.