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hold2dibber
01-04-2002, 05:14 PM
I've been surprised by the anti-Garland sentiment I've been seeing on the board lately. A year and a half ago, the guy was considered to be a can't miss savior. Now he's getting bashed, despite the fact that he is just barely 22 years old and despite the fact that he showed some flashes of brilliance last year (and ended up with a 3.69 era which is pretty damn good in the AL in this day and age). I think Garland has an outstanding chance to be a consistent 15-18 game winner in the majors over the next 10 years. I don't understand why anyone would be so down on the guy when he's shown so much potential and he's still so young (I think the Erstad trade would have been a disaster and am thrilled it didn't go through).

bjmarte
01-04-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I've been surprised by the anti-Garland sentiment I've been seeing on the board lately. A year and a half ago, the guy was considered to be a can't miss savior. Now he's getting bashed, despite the fact that he is just barely 22 years old and despite the fact that he showed some flashes of brilliance last year (and ended up with a 3.69 era which is pretty damn good in the AL in this day and age). I think Garland has an outstanding chance to be a consistent 15-18 game winner in the majors over the next 10 years. I don't understand why anyone would be so down on the guy when he's shown so much potential and he's still so young (I think the Erstad trade would have been a disaster and am thrilled it didn't go through).

Yea, what he said :smile:

FarWestChicago
01-04-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I've been surprised by the anti-Garland sentiment I've been seeing on the board lately. A year and a half ago, the guy was considered to be a can't miss savior. Now he's getting bashed, despite the fact that he is just barely 22 years old and despite the fact that he showed some flashes of brilliance last year (and ended up with a 3.69 era which is pretty damn good in the AL in this day and age).You call this bashing? Charlie Browned (where is that guy?) put Garland in the same class as Alan Embree! Now that got a bit of a row going. :smile:

Huisj
01-04-2002, 05:21 PM
I'll second that. A few weeks ago, in one post where everyone was complaining about the state of the Sox' pitching, I said something to the effect of watch out for Garland next year, and a few people spoke up and agreed that he could break through next year. His ERA, even if a lot of it was out of the bullpen, was impressive for his age, or even for anyone. Remeber, this guy jumped 3 levels in one year a few years back when he ended the year pitching good in the AAA world series with Charlotte. Then he was unhittable through June with the Knights the next year (ERA down near 2 if I remember). He got roughed up in his first start in early july (I think it was the fourth of july, you think he wasn't a bit nervous???) and didn't really get things going real good the rest of the year. However, he showed good stuff here and there, and was coming along when he got hit with that nasty line drive at Tampa Bay. Last year, he seemed to get better and better as the year went on. I'm sticking to it--watch out for Jon Garland next year.

Daver
01-04-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
You call this bashing? Charlie Browned (where is that guy?) put Garland in the same class as Alan Embree! Now that got a bit of a row going. :smile:

I think Ol' Charlie got tired of people calling him an idiot,among other things(expletive deleted).

But then again what the hell do I know?

FarWestChicago
01-04-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by daver


I think Ol' Charlie got tired of people calling him an idiot,among other things(expletive deleted).

But then again what the hell do I know? Remember when he would just go off on us for being a bunch of blind, Garland lovers. Ahhh, fond memories. :smile:

Jerry_Manuel
01-04-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Remember when he would just go off on us for being a bunch of blind, Garland lovers. Ahhh, fond memories. :smile:

Oh yeah I remember that, Charlie and I got into it a few times.

Champ Summers
01-04-2002, 05:38 PM
Jon Garland will win 20 games twice and at least 1 Cy Young award in the next 7 years. No question.......................................... .................................................. ....................................NONE!

FarWestChicago
01-04-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Oh yeah I remember that, Charlie and I got into it a few times. Yeah, I remember the Chuckster having words with you a few times. :smile:

Jerry_Manuel
01-04-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yeah, I remember the Chuckster having words with you a few times. :smile:

I hope he stops by when the season kicks off.

Daver
01-04-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I hope he stops by when the season kicks off.

Looking to pick a fight JM?

I'm always around for that.

RedPinStripes
01-04-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yeah, I remember the Chuckster having words with you a few times. :smile:

This wouldn't be that UCanCallMeChuck character is it? That kid has problems.

Daver
01-04-2002, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


This wouldn't be that UCanCallMeChuck character is it? That kid has problems.

Nope different guy.

RedPinStripes
01-04-2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by daver


Nope different guy.

I see the other chuck was banned. I'm sure he went out with some fireworks.

FarWestChicago
01-04-2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


This wouldn't be that UCanCallMeChuck character is it? That kid has problems. No, this was Charlie Browned.

Jerry_Manuel
01-04-2002, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by daver
Looking to pick a fight JM?

I'm always around for that.

Not now Daver, perhaps during the lockout. You know if you want to fight Bmr is around.

doublem23
01-04-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Charlie Browned (where is that guy?)

I dunno... After we tore him apart for his Embree/Garland fiasco, he left for a while, then came back, and then left again...

Who knows?

danman31
01-04-2002, 08:37 PM
None of the Garland bashers on this thread. There are few, but he hasn't been oftenly talked about. I am a big fan of his, plus we got him for Matt Karchner from the Cubs!! If the Cubs want Royce let's give them another crappy guy and let's get Mark Prior(I know it's an unrealisitic pipe dream and that was a Schu trade, we have KW now:(: ) Anyway, Garland is the sh**s

SOXSINCE'70
01-04-2002, 10:44 PM
If all goes well in 2002,Garland may win 14-16 games.He's got the stuff.He's got the experience.He pitched really well in the second half.Became a lot better at getting out of sticky situations with minimal damage (men on 1st and 3rd,0 out,etc).

Stick with this guy.Hey,had the Sox scored some runs that first game in Wrigley,Garland would have been the winner.

Oops!! There's that fat fastball from Howry to Gutierrez again.The cheap basket slam.

F*** The Basket!!

LongDistanceFan
01-05-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by daver


Looking to pick a fight JM?

I'm always around for that. i got you back as well as jm for that.......... :)

Daver
01-05-2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
i got you back as well as jm for that.......... :)

I never pick fights,they just seem to find me.

:D:

KempersRS
01-05-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
You call this bashing? Charlie Browned (where is that guy?) put Garland in the same class as Alan Embree! Now that got a bit of a row going. :smile:

Oh man, Charlie...what a guy. I believe his theory for Garland being a bad pitcher was: He gives up more UNearned runs than any other pitcher. What a theory it was...Jon deserves better treatment!

kermittheefrog
01-05-2002, 03:35 AM
I like Garland, he's very young, he's got good stuff and his given some good results but I'm also cautious with him. He doesn't really dominate, he doesn't get a lot of K's. Guys like that tend to not last long but it could just be because of his age. He certainly has the stuff to dominate, I've seen him do it here and there.

FarWestChicago
01-05-2002, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I like Garland, he's very young, he's got good stuff and his given some good results but I'm also cautious with him. He doesn't really dominate, he doesn't get a lot of K's. Guys like that tend to not last long but it could just be because of his age. He certainly has the stuff to dominate, I've seen him do it here and there. He had a good ERA last year, and that gives me hope. I just wish he had more gas. Why can't we have any flamethrowers?

czalgosz
01-05-2002, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I like Garland, he's very young, he's got good stuff and his given some good results but I'm also cautious with him. He doesn't really dominate, he doesn't get a lot of K's. Guys like that tend to not last long but it could just be because of his age. He certainly has the stuff to dominate, I've seen him do it here and there.

That's my qualm with Garland - fly ball pitchers who don't get strikeouts tend to get shelled. I could be wrong about Garland, but my feeling about him is that he doesn't have a long career ahead of him.

MaggPipes
01-05-2002, 09:48 AM
There is where you are wrong West.....you don't have to be a flamethrower to be a great pitcher.....is Maddux???is Glavine...heck is Buehrle??? Garland has one of the most devastating sinkiers in baseball Kevin Brown like infact......if he picks up some control he will be awesome....remeber the guy is what 21-22 now? give the guy some credit he will be allright...

czalgosz
01-05-2002, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
There is where you are wrong West.....you don't have to be a flamethrower to be a great pitcher.....is Maddux???is Glavine...heck is Buehrle??? Garland has one of the most devastating sinkiers in baseball Kevin Brown like infact......if he picks up some control he will be awesome....remeber the guy is what 21-22 now? give the guy some credit he will be allright...

I really hope you're right... it's just that it's rare that pitchers learn control after they reach the majors. It happens - see Randy Johnson - and when it does it's immediately noticeable, but it's rare. I hope for all of our sake that you're right.

Daver
01-05-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I really hope you're right... it's just that it's rare that pitchers learn control after they reach the majors. It happens - see Randy Johnson - and when it does it's immediately noticeable, but it's rare. I hope for all of our sake that you're right.

You have to keep in mind the fact that he was rushed to this level,by all rights he should have been in the minors through last season working on his control,not developing it in MLB.If he is a failure the Sox have only themselves to blame.

But then again what the hell do I know?

SOXSINCE'70
01-05-2002, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I really hope you're right... it's just that it's rare that pitchers learn control after they reach the majors. It happens - see Randy Johnson - and when it does it's immediately noticeable, but it's rare. I hope for all of our sake that you're right.

And it took randy Johnson until almost the age of 30 to get it together.Don't give up on Garland yet.

"Pitching is location,location,location".
-Jeff Torborg-1991

czalgosz
01-05-2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by daver


You have to keep in mind the fact that he was rushed to this level,by all rights he should have been in the minors through last season working on his control,not developing it in MLB.If he is a failure the Sox have only themselves to blame.

But then again what the hell do I know?

Yes, I remember being surprised when they brought up Garland last season - I thought it was pretty early. One nice thing about picking up Ritchie is that it takes some of the pressure off Garland - unlike Kip Wells in 2000, who was expected to be our #2 guy, Garland can settle in at #4 and have no pressure on him. Mark Buehrle will have all the pressure, instead.

CerberusWG
01-05-2002, 11:26 AM
I haven't really seen much of Garland, but don't like some of his stuff. His sinker is awesome though, that thing goes staright then out of nowhere it just falls off.

But, with the confidence he gained last year, Garland should do well this year.

ExSoxFan
01-05-2002, 12:10 PM
People need to make up their minds about Jon Garland. Before he was almost traded, he was a shaky fifth starter/long reliever. Then when the trade was announced, he became Greg Maddux. Then when the trade was renounced, he becomes a promising young gun. Which is it? I think he's a promising young gun, but he needs to gain consistency. That may or may not happen in time - I think it will. He seems to be mentally tough.

Huisj
01-05-2002, 12:40 PM
I think it's mostly that different people are saying different things about him--it's like people are just changing their minds left and right about the guy. People have been comparing him to kevin brown a lot the last few years. Lets hope he develops a bit faster than brown did--he didn't have outstandingly large numbers of k's until almost 10 years in the league. In fact early on, he had rather small numbers of k's, but still pitched effectively.

Also, Garland is by no means a fly ball pitcher--over his career, his g/f ratio is 1.46 (274/188). That's pretty good, and last year it was slightly better than that even. . . although, I guess that's still far away from Brown's standard 2 or 3 g/f ratio he's been having lately.

czalgosz
01-05-2002, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Huisj


Also, Garland is by no means a fly ball pitcher--over his career, his g/f ratio is 1.46 (274/188). That's pretty good, and last year it was slightly better than that even. . . although, I guess that's still far away from Brown's standard 2 or 3 g/f ratio he's been having lately.

My bad on that... I thought he was a flyball pitcher. The fact that he gets a lot of grounders explains why he gives up so many unearned runs...

AsInWreck
01-05-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Huisj

Also, Garland is by no means a fly ball pitcher--over his career, his g/f ratio is 1.46 (274/188). That's pretty good, and last year it was slightly better than that even. . . although, I guess that's still far away from Brown's standard 2 or 3 g/f ratio he's been having lately.

Being a groundball pitcher isn;t necessarily a good thing w/ the sox IF defense, though. I like Garland though and believe he will surpass beurle in the next couple of years. I was reading today
that KW is still trying to package a deal for Giles for young pitchers/ I can't imagine Pitt would make a deal unless it included beurle or garland and I think KW already showed he's willing
to trade JG- i think that would be regretable indeed

WinningUgly!
01-05-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


I was reading today that KW is still trying to package a deal for Giles for young pitchers/ I can't imagine Pitt would make a deal unless it included beurle or garland and I think KW already showed he's willing to trade JG- i think that would be regretable indeed

It doesn't matter who or what is offered for Giles. He has that stupid list of only 6 teams that he will accept a trade to...the White Sox are not among the 6 teams :(:

kermittheefrog
01-05-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


Being a groundball pitcher isn;t necessarily a good thing w/ the sox IF defense, though. I like Garland though and believe he will surpass beurle in the next couple of years. I was reading today
that KW is still trying to package a deal for Giles for young pitchers/ I can't imagine Pitt would make a deal unless it included beurle or garland and I think KW already showed he's willing
to trade JG- i think that would be regretable indeed

I think Garland would be worth sending away for Giles. Giles is really one of the most underrated players in the game right now. I'd say Giles, Maggs and Bobby Abreu and the 3 most underrated hitters in the game.

Paulwny
01-05-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


It doesn't matter who or what is offered for Giles. He has that stupid list of only 6 teams that he will accept a trade to...the White Sox are not among the 6 teams :(:

Agree, only way he comes to the sox is if JR renegotiates his contract and gives him more $$$, won't happen.

WinningUgly!
01-05-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Giles is really one of the most underrated players in the game right now. I'd say Giles, Maggs and Bobby Abreu and the 3 most underrated hitters in the game.

I'll agree with that. Honorable mention to Lance Berkman & Mike Sweeney.

kermittheefrog
01-05-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!


I'll agree with that. Honorable mention to Lance Berkman & Mike Sweeney.

I agree about Sweeney, I think it's a little too early to call Berkman underrated, we'll see in a couple years what people think of him.

FarWestChicago
01-05-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by MaggPipes
There is where you are wrong West.....you don't have to be a flamethrower to be a great pitcher.....is Maddux???is Glavine...heck is Buehrle??? Garland has one of the most devastating sinkiers in baseball Kevin Brown like infact......if he picks up some control he will be awesome....remeber the guy is what 21-22 now? give the guy some credit he will be allright... I didn't say everybody has to be a flamethrower. I wish we just had one, or maybe two. When everybody on the staff throws around 90 the other team never has to adjust. If you can trot one or two out there with some heat, it's gotta help. :smile:

Jerry_Manuel
01-05-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I didn't say everybody has to be a flamethrower. I wish we just had one, or maybe two. When everybody on the staff throws around 90 the other team never has to adjust. If you can trot one or two out there with some heat, it's gotta help. :smile:

Speaking of heat I'm looking forward to seeing how Lorenzo looks in spring training. Damn shame he's always hurt.

FarWestChicago
01-05-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Speaking of heat I'm looking forward to seeing how Lorenzo looks in spring training. Damn shame he's always hurt. Yeah, that has been a total bummer. I really thought he was going to be a very good reliever. :(:

Daver
01-05-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yeah, that has been a total bummer. I really thought he was going to be a very good reliever. :(:

I think this is do or die time for Barcelo,if he does't make it out of ST he is likely to get lost in the minors.

duke of dorwood
01-05-2002, 04:15 PM
Hopefully Jon will try and pitch inside a bit more. If he does, his stuff will make him a successful starter. He's not a big innings guy yet. Be we cant keep pulling him early either.

kermittheefrog
01-06-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by daver


I think this is do or die time for Barcelo,if he does't make it out of ST he is likely to get lost in the minors.

Lorenzo throws to hard to get lost in the shuffle. I think he's gonna be one of those guys that has all of one good season in his career because of injuries and teams will keep bringing him in and hoping he can stay healthy.

czalgosz
01-06-2002, 10:28 AM
Good call; a John Wetteland-type.