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Fenway
01-27-2006, 11:33 PM
Six days after reaching an agreement in principle, three days after Guillermo Mota's underwhelming physical, and one day after the deal teetered on the precipice of collapse, the Red Sox added a fourth prospect and cash considerations to their offer and got their man: Cleveland's Coco Crisp. The deal was expanded to seven players, including the six in the initial agreement, and was announced by general manager Theo Epstein.

It was not known how much money the Sox would be sending to Cleveland, but this deal required commissioner Bud Selig's approval, and, as a rule, Selig must approve any transaction that involves more than $1 million. .

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/27/done_deal_sox_land_crisp/

RED SOX PRESS RELEASE
01/27/2006 10:42 PM ET
Red Sox acquire Crisp, Riske, Bard (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302390&vkey=pr_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos)
The Red Sox have acquired outfielder Coco Crisp, righthander David Riske and catcher Josh Bard from the Cleveland Indians in exchange for righthander Guillermo Mota, third baseman Andy Marte, catcher Kelly Shoppach, cash considerations, and a player to be named or further cash considerations.

INDIANS PRESS RELEASE
Indians, Red Sox complete trade (http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302232&vkey=pr_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle)
The Indians today announced the club has acquired 3B ANDY MARTE, RHP GUILLERMO MOTA & CA KELLY SHOPPACH from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for OF COCO CRISP, RHP DAVID RISKE & CA JOSH BARD. The Indians are also set to receive a player to be named and cash from the Red Sox.

buehrle4cy05
01-27-2006, 11:56 PM
:?:
So why does Cleveland exactly need Kelly Shoppach? And for that matter, at least Riske could sort of close (yes, I know. JOE.......CREDE!!!!!) and Mota can't. He showed that in Florida. Usually teams that want to compete for a division don't trade away starters for prospects...do they really expect Marte to take over for Boone this year of what?

IMO, bad trade for Cleveland in the short run. Long run it could be good, but you never know...Marte could get injured, and then Cleveland is ****ed. I won't be crying, though.

Fenway
01-28-2006, 12:00 AM
Ya gotta ask this question as well. If Marte is a "can't miss" prospect why has he been traded TWICE in 2 months

I wonder how much cash Boston sent to the Tribe, it is at least $ 1,000,000 as Selig had to approve the deal.


:?:
So why does Cleveland exactly need Kelly Shoppach? And for that matter, at least Riske could sort of close (yes, I know. JOE.......CREDE!!!!!) and Mota can't. He showed that in Florida. Usually teams that want to compete for a division don't trade away starters for prospects...do they really expect Marte to take over for Boone this year of what?

IMO, bad trade for Cleveland in the short run. Long run it could be good, but you never know...Marte could get injured, and then Cleveland is ****ed. I won't be crying, though.

buehrle4cy05
01-28-2006, 12:05 AM
Ya gotta ask this question as well. If Marte is a "can't miss" prospect why has he been traded TWICE in 2 months


Great point, fenway. Maybe Atlanta knew something about him that Boston figured out.:?:

oeo
01-28-2006, 12:23 AM
Nice to hear there won't be any CoCo killings, except maybe when we play the Red Sox. And, as for the short-term (aka this season), I think they just got weaker.

Flight #24
01-28-2006, 12:27 AM
:?:
So why does Cleveland exactly need Kelly Shoppach? And for that matter, at least Riske could sort of close (yes, I know. JOE.......CREDE!!!!!) and Mota can't. He showed that in Florida. Usually teams that want to compete for a division don't trade away starters for prospects...do they really expect Marte to take over for Boone this year of what?

IMO, bad trade for Cleveland in the short run. Long run it could be good, but you never know...Marte could get injured, and then Cleveland is ****ed. I won't be crying, though.

The upside is the Tribe is almost certainly worse in '06 than they were yesterday. The downside is that they may have the core of another Vizquel+Thome+Belle+Ramirez-esque crew like they did in the mid-90s. That will be a significant force for the Sox to reckon with, possibly in 06, almost certainly in 07-09. They'll have the hitting, and KW has shown that he'll make sure he has the pitching. Ought to be interesting.

One thing for sure: If you're a Twins fan, this just kept you looking at 3d for a while.

TDog
01-28-2006, 01:38 AM
...

It was not known how much money the Sox would be sending to Cleveland ...

The Sox are Chicago's team. Show some respect and mention your team's color when you're talking about them on WSI.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2006, 02:51 AM
Yawn....who cares.

Enough about Boston and the Red Sox and the almighty Theo Epstein.

WE DON'T CARE!!

Lip

CLR01
01-28-2006, 02:57 AM
Yawn....who cares.

Enough about Boston and the Red Sox and the almighty Theo Epstein.

WE DON'T CARE!!

Lip



Theo and the Red Sox are the greatest team ever and everyone should know everytime someone in the organization sneezes. Just ask ESPN.

DSpivack
01-28-2006, 04:15 AM
Yawn....who cares.

Enough about Boston and the Red Sox and the almighty Theo Epstein.

WE DON'T CARE!!

Lip

This is a baseball trade. And one involving our #1 rival. If you don't care, don't post in the thread.

Lip, I love your enthusiasm and you are one of the most knowledgeable people here, but sometimes you're over the top.

Fenway
01-28-2006, 08:27 AM
Yawn....who cares.

Enough about Boston and the Red Sox and the almighty Theo Epstein.

WE DON'T CARE!!

Lip

Trade involves a team many consider to be the White Sox's biggest rival for 2006 and you don't care?

doublem23
01-28-2006, 08:56 AM
Yawn....who cares.

Enough about Boston and the Red Sox and the almighty Theo Epstein.

WE DON'T CARE!!

Lip

Did you happen to not notice the other team in this deal? :?:

caulfield12
01-28-2006, 10:02 AM
Six days after reaching an agreement in principle, three days after Guillermo Mota's underwhelming physical, and one day after the deal teetered on the precipice of collapse, the Red Sox added a fourth prospect and cash considerations to their offer and got their man: Cleveland's Coco Crisp. The deal was expanded to seven players, including the six in the initial agreement, and was announced by general manager Theo Epstein.

It was not known how much money the Sox would be sending to Cleveland, but this deal required commissioner Bud Selig's approval, and, as a rule, Selig must approve any transaction that involves more than $1 million. .

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/01/27/done_deal_sox_land_crisp/

RED SOX PRESS RELEASE
01/27/2006 10:42 PM ET
Red Sox acquire Crisp, Riske, Bard (http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302390&vkey=pr_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos)
The Red Sox have acquired outfielder Coco Crisp, righthander David Riske and catcher Josh Bard from the Cleveland Indians in exchange for righthander Guillermo Mota, third baseman Andy Marte, catcher Kelly Shoppach, cash considerations, and a player to be named or further cash considerations.

INDIANS PRESS RELEASE
Indians, Red Sox complete trade (http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20060127&content_id=1302232&vkey=pr_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle)
The Indians today announced the club has acquired 3B ANDY MARTE, RHP GUILLERMO MOTA & CA KELLY SHOPPACH from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for OF COCO CRISP, RHP DAVID RISKE & CA JOSH BARD. The Indians are also set to receive a player to be named and cash from the Red Sox.

I think this is interesting that they selected Riske instead of Betancourt, which was the originally reported deal. IMO, you now have two similar righties in the Julian Tavarez or Jose Paniagua mold (when he first came to the bigs)...lots of talent and ability, but very inconsistent and unreliable. Reliable was the definition of Howry last season, whatever you want to say about him as a person.

Upside for the Sox this season, downside if Marte becomes the two-time minor league MVP impact player that Joe Crede was SUPPOSED to be in 2001 or 2002.

I still fear that line-up a lot less with Crisp in it...as much as the White Sox changed 8 players, their starting line-up is still pretty much intact, with the exception of DH and Anderson for Rowand. I just think there is more potential for the Sox offense than people realize because we were so late 80s White Sox last season.

HotelWhiteSox
01-28-2006, 10:46 AM
I wonder if there's something wrong with Mota, he keeps getting dealt around, though there was a Marlins' firesale in between.

I'm going to miss David Riske :(: "Jooeee Creeedddeeeeee!"

Fenway
01-28-2006, 11:03 AM
Plain Dealer columnist seems to think Cleveland looking at 07

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/bud_shaw/index.ssf?/base/sports/11384409153510.xml&coll=2


Two players left the Philadelphia Phillies for the AL Central in the off-season. The Indians sound as if they're the ones who landed Jim Thome. But the White Sox acquired Thome in a trade.
Instead, the Indians plan to fill Crisp's spot with Jason Michaels, acquired from the Phillies on Friday for reliever Arthur Rhodes. He'll hit lefties better than Crisp did, but that might be all

If Marte's high ceiling looks reachable in a year or two - he'll start in Class AAA Buffalo this season - trading Crisp for him won't haunt Shapiro any more than trading pitcher Bartolo Colon does these days. Then again, is this a good time to mention infielder Brandon Phillips?

soxinem1
01-28-2006, 12:05 PM
Say what you want, but I cannot figure out why CLE had such a ****on to trade Crisp, especially for what they got in return. Joe Crede notwithstanding, I'll take Riske on the White Sox this year for one of those empty BP spots, and definitely over Mota.

Then Shapiro trades Rhodes to PHI. I'd also take him in our pen. That's four major BP components that need replacing. Unlike our staff, most of the Tribe's starters are not known for working deep in games.

I don't know about you guys, but I would think that a team that came a hair from pulling the biggest upset in pro sports history didn't need that big of a makeover. All they needed was another starter after Elarton left, and he was no big loss.

California Sox
01-28-2006, 01:07 PM
Great point, fenway. Maybe Atlanta knew something about him that Boston figured out.:?:

This is a good point. Try to remember the last time Atlanta traded a "great" prospect who turned out to be "great." Schmidt was a major leaguer. A bunch, Jose Capellan being the latest, turned out to be major disappointments elsewhere. They do a good job scouting their own system, that's for sure.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2006, 01:31 PM
Fenway:

No... because pitching wins pennants... always has and always will. Is Cleveland's staff better this year? Me thinks not.

I agree with CLR 01. I'm just tired on a White Sox board of a Red Sox post every friggin time something happens in that organization. That's for the 'Sons Of Sam Horn.' It's not for 'White Sox Interactive.'

And besides while I can see some value in Indian news since they are the division, (although I disagree they are the Sox 'biggest' rivals, that honor belongs to the Twins since the new millenium began) how does that explain the numerous threads started about that idiot Theo Epstein and his soap opera over the past month?

Is Theo now a Sox rival? Does he now 'play' in the division?

Lip

Crede_Fan
01-28-2006, 01:55 PM
Fenway:

No because pitching wins pennants... always has and always will. Is Cleveland's staff better this year? Me thinks not.

I agree with CLR 01. I'm just tired on a White Sox board of a Red Sox post every friggin time something happens in that organization. That's for the 'Sons Of Sam Horn.' It's not for 'White Sox Interactive.'

Lip

No disrespect Lip, but it is posted in Talking Baseball. It is the place on WSI to talk about all of the on-goings of all major league teams. I for one do like Fenway's prespective from out of Boston. This post was important because it was a trade with a team in the White Sox division.

However, Fenway, you should not refer to the Red Sox as just the Sox on a White Sox board. That is very disrespectful to all of the White Sox fans here at WSI.

FarWestChicago
01-28-2006, 02:00 PM
However, Fenway, you should not refer to the Red Sox as just the Sox on a White Sox board. That is very disrespectful to all of the White Sox fans here at WSI.Wrong Sox would be appropriate. :D:

Fenway
01-28-2006, 02:08 PM
No disrespect Lip, but it is posted in Talking Baseball. It is the place on WSI to talk about all of the on-goings of all major league teams. I for one do like Fenway's prespective from out of Boston. This post was important because it was a trade with a team in the White Sox division.

However, Fenway, you should not refer to the Red Sox as just the Sox on a White Sox board. That is very disrespectful to all of the White Sox fans here at WSI.

I usually catch myself ( in fact I edited the Globe quote to do that ) but sometimes I goof ( maybe I should call them the Pilgrims or Turkeys?)

In any event I am at a loss at what Cleveland is trying to do. They appear to be weaker now than 2005 and if they trying to sell season tickets they taking an odd approach. Maybe they sitting back to see how much income their new cable station brings in before they adjust payroll.

Right now I would put the White Sox as the only sure bet to get back to the playoffs in the AL..The East looks like it maybe a 3 team fight and Oakland looks stronger and may challenge Anaheim. But in the Central the Twins have done little this off season and the Indians look weaker.

That said history shows there is usually a surprise team. Last year it was Chicago ( honestly nobody can say they saw it coming except maybe Foulke You :smile: )

SoxSpeed22
01-28-2006, 02:10 PM
One thing I'd like to establish here. Both teams are going to be in our way of repeating, this does concern us.

Unregistered
01-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Seems that Tribe fans are not happy with this trade or any other offseason moves the Jndians have made. Check these gems I gleaned off another board:

(btw, these idiots swear A LOT - and yes, these are all different people)

So they are going to lose Crisp, and either Arthur Rhodes or Rafael Betancourt. And get Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota, and Jason Michaels. Wow great move guys!! Way to improve on what you had last year and make that playoff push. Looks like another 5 years of rebuilding.


Coco is officially gone. traded today. mother****er. WHY???????

ok so we got a 3rd basemen out of the deal, even though we kept boone and everyone was starting to like him as 3rd base. now we lost our left fielder that made webgems a few times a week. tell you what, why not just get rid of grady sizemore and just play without an outfield?


No, we don't even get a 3B. We get a ****ing 3B PROSPECT!! I don't get this **** at all. You get rid of a guy who played his ass off last season and has a huge upside for a prospect?? Crisp played hard every day, he was a fan favorite, he was a legit leadoff guy (which is hard to find these days) and he always seemed to come up with a timely hit or catch. Now, we get a ****ing unproven prospect and a broken reliever. Great. Nice job, Mark. Oh wait... not only did we lose our starting left fielder for a guy who has already been slated to play this year in the minors, but we also traded a PROVEN reliever in Rhodes to Philly for their 3rd outfielder, who really hasn't done a ****ing thing in his entire career.

So... to sum up: We lose a proven LF, a proven reliever, another proven reliever (Riske) and get an unproven LF, a minor-league 3B prospect and an injury-prone reliever.

How is this good? I thought Mark was a genius, now I think he's just an ******* who is trying to load the farm system. Guess what, moron? The AAA team doesn't win the ****ing World Series.

Dark day in Cleveland.


Yeesh. Talk about dark clouds. :redneck

NardiWasHere
01-28-2006, 02:14 PM
As a baseball fan, I think this section of the website is a terrific. I'm confident enough as a White Sox fan to be able to discuss, listen, and read about other teams in the MLB without getting upset or irratated that it doesn't have to do with my favorite team.

Love 'em or hate 'em, the Red Sox have been one of the most interesting baseball teams the past few years.

Fenway
01-28-2006, 02:15 PM
One thing I'd like to establish here. Both teams are going to be in our way of repeating, this does concern us.

The key is getting to play game 163 then anything can happen. With the White Sox rotation you have to like them in a short series. But you have to get to the ALDS, that is the hardest part.

munchman33
01-28-2006, 02:50 PM
Ya gotta ask this question as well. If Marte is a "can't miss" prospect why has he been traded TWICE in 2 months


Because Atlanta needs to win now. And Boston doesn't have the type of fanbase that would allow them to give a prospect the time he needs to develop in the big leagues.

Fenway
01-28-2006, 02:58 PM
Because Atlanta needs to win now. And Boston doesn't have the type of fanbase that would allow them to give a prospect the time he needs to develop in the big leagues.

I think the fans are not the problem, it is ownership

The Red Sox will keep selling tickets at sky high prices only as long as they contend. Nobody paying $85 to see Tampa Bay if they 15 games out.

Plus the are getting cute now, they are making season ticket holders commit to THREE YEARS in the higher price seats. They deny it but it smells like a PSL. You got no choice, three years or lose the tickets.

DSpivack
01-28-2006, 05:46 PM
Fenway:

No... because pitching wins pennants... always has and always will. Is Cleveland's staff better this year? Me thinks not.

I agree with CLR 01. I'm just tired on a White Sox board of a Red Sox post every friggin time something happens in that organization. That's for the 'Sons Of Sam Horn.' It's not for 'White Sox Interactive.'

And besides while I can see some value in Indian news since they are the division, (although I disagree they are the Sox 'biggest' rivals, that honor belongs to the Twins since the new millenium began) how does that explain the numerous threads started about that idiot Theo Epstein and his soap opera over the past month?

Is Theo now a Sox rival? Does he now 'play' in the division?

Lip

I don't disagree with your argument, just don't think this was the thread to make it in.

And while the Twins have been our main rival since, say 2002, I think it pretty clear that the Indians seem ripe to step it up and take the mantle of every-year second place team in the AL Central from the Sox. :tongue:

munchman33
01-28-2006, 11:04 PM
I think the fans are not the problem, it is ownership

The Red Sox will keep selling tickets at sky high prices only as long as they contend. Nobody paying $85 to see Tampa Bay if they 15 games out.

Plus the are getting cute now, they are making season ticket holders commit to THREE YEARS in the higher price seats. They deny it but it smells like a PSL. You got no choice, three years or lose the tickets.

Either way, it isn't a reflection on Marte. They acquired him to be a bargaining chip, because they could never use him.

itsnotrequired
01-29-2006, 01:38 AM
And, as for the short-term (aka this season), I think they just got weaker.

Agreed.

Lip Man 1
01-29-2006, 01:59 PM
This column says everything that needs to be said about the Red Sox, their 'God' Theo Epstein and their attitudes:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060128verdi,1,5317813.column?coll=cs-home-utility

Lip

Fenway
01-29-2006, 02:08 PM
Fenway:

No... because pitching wins pennants... always has and always will. Is Cleveland's staff better this year? Me thinks not.

how does that explain the numerous threads started about that idiot Theo Epstein and his soap opera over the past month?

Is Theo now a Sox rival? Does he now 'play' in the division?

Lip

Lip
I think on a national scale the circus that the Red Sox front office has become is one of the biggest stories of the off season. As far as Boston being a rival? They well could be if the White Sox find themselves fighting for a Wild Card or meet in the playoffs.


Now the Boston Globe takes a hard look at why Cleveland made the deal.

Crisp has close to three years of major league service time. Marte has about half of one season. Crisp, therefore, is eligible to become a free agent after the 2009 season. Marte, if he were to play a half season in Cleveland this year and then start at third base beginning in 2007, wouldn't become a free agent until after the 2011 season.

Between now and 2009, when he hits the open market, Crisp projects to make about $20 million, an estimate based on what he'd likely pocket in arbitration. Between now and 2009, Marte figures to make no more than $5 million, and most of that would be in 2009.

Therefore, by parting with Crisp, the Indians hypothetically saved about $15 million over the next four seasons while obtaining what most people in baseball consider a player capable of hitting 20-25 homers while playing a steady third base.


I think most will agree that the Indians pitching has come down a notch from where they were in 2005 and since Marte is earmarked for Buffalo right now it remains to be seen how they will make up Crisp's numbers. The problem for 2006 they face that even if Marte is ready the Indians are on the hook for $3.6 million for Aaron Boone and I doubt they will eat that. As far as Marte goes I saw him in Pawtucket and while he looked fine in the field he struggled at the plate in AAA batting around .275. I wouldn't pencil him in for Cooperstown yet.

The_Floridian
01-29-2006, 03:33 PM
Okay, I'm sure Cleveland has their reasons for making this trade, but I can't see how they expect to compete in '06. maybe that's why they made the trade. They must be playing for '07.

They've replaced Kevin Millwood with Paul Byrd.
They've replaced Scott Elarton with Jason Johnson.
They've replaced David Riske with Guillermo Mota.
They've replaced Coco Crisp with jason Michaels.
They have not replaced Arthur Rhodes.
They did not get a solid hitting 1B or RF, which I believe was a high priority for them this offseason.

Now, in fairness, I don't think Johnson/Elarton or Riske/Mota are necessarily downgrades, and Byrd is a good pitcher, if a downgrade from Millwood. They did the best they could there.

But they are obviously weaker in the pen without Rhodes, much weaker in the outfield without Crisp, and they didn't get that extra hitter at 1B or RF that they wanted so bad.

Maybe I'm speaking too early here, but is anyone else suddenly a lot less worried about Cleveland? Personally, with their pitching, I now see Minnesota as the number 2 team in the division.

HebrewHammer
01-29-2006, 04:07 PM
Okay, I'm sure Cleveland has their reasons for making this trade, but I can't see how they expect to compete in '06. maybe that's why they made the trade. They must be playing for '07.

They've replaced Kevin Millwood with Paul Byrd.
They've replaced Scott Elarton with Jason Johnson.
They've replaced David Riske with Guillermo Mota.
They've replaced Coco Crisp with jason Michaels.
They have not replaced Arthur Rhodes.
They did not get a solid hitting 1B or RF, which I believe was a high priority for them this offseason.

Now, in fairness, I don't think Johnson/Elarton or Riske/Mota are necessarily downgrades, and Byrd is a good pitcher, if a downgrade from Millwood. They did the best they could there.

But they are obviously weaker in the pen without Rhodes, much weaker in the outfield without Crisp, and they didn't get that extra hitter at 1B or RF that they wanted so bad.

Maybe I'm speaking too early here, but is anyone else suddenly a lot less worried about Cleveland? Personally, with their pitching, I now see Minnesota as the number 2 team in the division.

I agree with your assessment, but Cleveland still worries the hell out of me.

Mark Shapiro isn't that dumb. I guess Shoppach was added to allow Martinez a few more games at DH. I don't see why they don't just use Michaels as a leadoff hitter and let Sizemore bat further down in the order, but there's a reason I'm sitting at a computer and Eric Wedge is getting ready for spring training. Their problem at 3B is almost as bad as the cubs of years past. They have no one in the organization and Aaron Boone isn't the long term answer. I'd expect Marte up by May after Boone has another painfully bad start. Their bullpen situation confuses the hell out of me. I guess they're counting on some of their NRI's to pan out.

The Red Sox may have solved their CF problem, but they still have the worst IF in baseball.

Fenway
01-29-2006, 04:18 PM
The Northern Ohio Sunday papers digest the deal

Akron Beacon-Journal Terry Pluto
Fans don't like it, but the Red Sox play a different game than the Tribe. Prospects will be the key to the Tribe staying in contention, and top players will be used in deals to bring more prospects. It's how the Oakland A's have stayed competitive on a modest budget.

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/13741009.htm

Tribe expectations high (http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/baseball/mlb/cleveland_indians/13740993.htm)
Shapiro right to trade Crisp (http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/baseball/mlb/cleveland_indians/13741090.htm)

Cleveland Plain Dealer (http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer)

Indians News Cleveland 'always going to be special,' Coco says (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/113852763492640.xml&coll=2)
Give Crisp trade a chance, GM asks of 'frustrated' fans (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/113852747292640.xml&coll=2)
Hey, Hoynsie! (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/113852749492640.xml&coll=2)

A_ROW33
01-29-2006, 04:24 PM
I'm sorry it's corny but I can't resist: Coco belongs in bean town.

caulfield12
01-29-2006, 05:30 PM
The Northern Ohio Sunday papers digest the deal

Akron Beacon-Journal Terry Pluto


http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/13741009.htm

Tribe expectations high (http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/baseball/mlb/cleveland_indians/13740993.htm)
Shapiro right to trade Crisp (http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/sports/baseball/mlb/cleveland_indians/13741090.htm)

Cleveland Plain Dealer

Indians News Cleveland 'always going to be special,' Coco says (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/113852763492640.xml&coll=2)
Give Crisp trade a chance, GM asks of 'frustrated' fans (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/113852747292640.xml&coll=2)
Hey, Hoynsie! (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/113852749492640.xml&coll=2)

I love the idea of Jeff Weaver going to the Indians (to take Westbrooks spot), if only because he seems like a clubhouse problem everywhere he goes.

However, Kearns in LF instead of Michaels-Hollandsworth is a scary thing for Sox fans. If Marte fulfills his potential, they have PLUS offensive players at nearly every position on the diamond, with the exception of Casey Blake and maybe Belliard. I suppose DH is sort of a question as well...

However,

bafiarocks03
01-29-2006, 05:32 PM
Psht....WHATEVER!!!!!

santo=dorf
01-29-2006, 05:38 PM
Okay, I'm sure Cleveland has their reasons for making this trade, but I can't see how they expect to compete in '06. maybe that's why they made the trade. They must be playing for '07.

They've replaced Kevin Millwood with Paul Byrd.
They've replaced Scott Elarton with Jason Johnson.
They've replaced David Riske with Guillermo Mota.
They've replaced Coco Crisp with jason Michaels.
They have not replaced Arthur Rhodes.
They did not get a solid hitting 1B or RF, which I believe was a high priority for them this offseason.

Now, in fairness, I don't think Johnson/Elarton or Riske/Mota are necessarily downgrades, and Byrd is a good pitcher, if a downgrade from Millwood. They did the best they could there.

But they are obviously weaker in the pen without Rhodes, much weaker in the outfield without Crisp, and they didn't get that extra hitter at 1B or RF that they wanted so bad.

Maybe I'm speaking too early here, but is anyone else suddenly a lot less worried about Cleveland? Personally, with their pitching, I now see Minnesota as the number 2 team in the division.

They also haven't replace Bob Howry yet, unless you count the Danny Graves NRI signing, and is Bob Wickman going to catch all of the breaks again this year?

Kevin Millwood pitched out of his mind last year, and Jason Johnson was atrocious away from Comerica. Big downgrade in my book.

I still have the Indians being the #2 team in the Central, but I don't see them winning 93 games again.

Lip Man 1
01-29-2006, 07:55 PM
Fenway:

Which is why ESPN promotes the hell out of the Boston 'circus' with constant references to it as well as stories on it.

I personally DON'T GIVE A DAMN about the Red Sox, Boston in general or the front office 'circus.' I am a White Sox fan. I could care less about the 'circus.'

I just would rather not see constant references to the Red Sox on a White Sox web site. Nothing personal, but having the Red Sox shoved down my throat by ESPN and Fox is more then enough thank you. I don't need to know everytime Manny picks his nose, or when Theo uses the toilet.

When Manny gets traded fine, when Theo is fired again fine. Till them I don't need to know every single, minute rumor that the Globe reports nor a summery of every single Boston columnist regardless of what they say and regardless of the subject.

Like I say I'm not trying to personally attack you, I just think you lose site of the fact that White Sox fans lives don't revolve around the comings and goings of the Boston Red Sox, their fans, their media and their city.

Lip

HebrewHammer
01-30-2006, 12:46 AM
Fenway:

Which is why ESPN promotes the hell out of the Boston 'circus' with constant references to it as well as stories on it.

I personally DON'T GIVE A DAMN about the Red Sox, Boston in general or the front office 'circus.' I am a White Sox fan. I could care less about the 'circus.'

I just would rather not see constant references to the Red Sox on a White Sox web site. Nothing personal, but having the Red Sox shoved down my throat by ESPN and Fox is more then enough thank you. I don't need to know everytime Manny picks his nose, or when Theo uses the toilet.

When Manny gets traded fine, when Theo is fired again fine. Till them I don't need to know every single, minute rumor that the Globe reports nor a summery of every single Boston columnist regardless of what they say and regardless of the subject.

Like I say I'm not trying to personally attack you, I just think you lose site of the fact that White Sox fans lives don't revolve around the comings and goings of the Boston Red Sox, their fans, their media and their city.

Lip

Why is it whenever I read one of Lip's posts, I picture Sam Elliott?

Baby Fisk
01-30-2006, 09:18 AM
However, Fenway, you should not refer to the Red Sox as just the Sox on a White Sox board. That is very disrespectful to all of the White Sox fans here at WSI.
Boston = Red Cubs

There's nothing wrong with posting Red Cubs news in the TB forums. It's when irrelevant Red Cub content starts creeping into the Clubhouse that it becomes irksome to Sox fans who want to read Sox content there. It's happened a few times.

Fenway
01-30-2006, 09:43 AM
This column says everything that needs to be said about the Red Sox, their 'God' Theo Epstein and their attitudes:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060128verdi,1,5317813.column?coll=cs-home-utility

Lip

Verdi echos what is being written in New England.

What is ironic is that I can make a case that Jim Hendry was a major reason the Red Sox won in 2004 as he was the one that put the 4 team trade together that sent Nomar to the Cubs. Epstein was under orders to get rid of Nomar and it was Hendry that did the groundwork with Minnesota and Montreal not Theo.

Theo did sign Ortiz but to be honest got very lucky with that signing. Remember Ortiz was behind Jeremy Giambi coming out of spring training and it wasn't until Shea Hillenbrand was traded to Arizona for Kim that Ortiz finally got a chance to play every day. Theo did wine and dine Schilling and signed Foulke but other than that what has Theo really done? Edgar Renteria and Matt Clement worked out well :(:

What I found enlightning was that part of reason Theo was upset last fall was the baseball operations department was moved into the basement where the bowling alley used to be so the old offices could be used for the Red Sox real estate offices. The Boston Red Sox have forgotten they are a baseball team.

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 11:21 AM
Theo did sign Ortiz but to be honest got very lucky with that signing. Remember Ortiz was behind Jeremy Giambi coming out of spring training and it wasn't until Shea Hillenbrand was traded to Arizona for Kim that Ortiz finally got a chance to play every day. Theo did wine and dine Schilling and signed Foulke but other than that what has Theo really done? Edgar Renteria and Matt Clement worked out well :(:


This is what I find most hilarious, that if you actually look at what Theo did, he's living off of that thanksgiving dinner at Schilling's and closing that deal. Kudos to him for doing it, but let's all remember that the Red Sox were one of 2-3 teams able to take on that contract. It's not exactly like he went out and outscouted the rest of the league on the guy. Same thing with the Beckett deal - how many teams were in position to both give up good prospects AND take on Lowell's deal? Not many.....

By all accounts, the Red Sox have developed a solid to good minor league system (although they gave away a pretty good prospect in Matt Murton). But their free agent signings and trades have been good when they've been in position to take advantage of teams financially. That's it. Theo = Hendry in my book, although he did get a title when the team caught fire at the most convenient of all possible times.

We'll see in '06 how good he is.

ondafarm
01-30-2006, 11:21 AM
Any trade that gets Coco Crisp out of the Central Division is good by me. Cleveland upgrades their back-up catcher, gets a future third-baseman (with clutch hitting problems) adds a platoon-worthy rightfielder and a weak armed maybe eight inning specialist. We'll wait a few years on this but I think it's a great trade for the White Sox. Maybe the kid at third will be the next coming of Brooks Robinson but unless so, to me, this just removes a proven Sox killer (Crisp) and puts him where we play him only 6 games a year.

Baby Fisk
01-30-2006, 11:33 AM
This is what I find most hilarious, that if you actually look at what Theo did, he's living off of that thanksgiving dinner at Schilling's and closing that deal. Kudos to him for doing it, but let's all remember that the Red Sox were one of 2-3 teams able to take on that contract. It's not exactly like he went out and outscouted the rest of the league on the guy. Same thing with the Beckett deal - how many teams were in position to both give up good prospects AND take on Lowell's deal? Not many.....

By all accounts, the Red Sox have developed a solid to good minor league system (although they gave away a pretty good prospect in Matt Murton). But their free agent signings and trades have been good when they've been in position to take advantage of teams financially. That's it. Theo = Hendry in my book, although he did get a title when the team caught fire at the most convenient of all possible times.

We'll see in '06 how good he is.
It's a hell of a lot easier looking like a GM genius when your team has (barring the insane Yankees) the highest payroll in all of baseball (2005 payroll list here (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2005)).

(There are some FOBBs on another board where I hang out who celebrated the 2004 WS as a victory for Moneyball via its disciple Epstein.)

DaleJRFan
01-30-2006, 11:36 AM
I suppose DH is sort of a question as well...

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400098.jpg
"...say what???"

caulfield12
01-30-2006, 12:58 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_400098.jpg
"...say what???"

I guess I should have written 1B instead...whoever is playing there, Broussard, Victor Martinez, Boone, etc.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 01:41 PM
Say what you want, but I cannot figure out why CLE had such a ****on to trade Crisp, especially for what they got in return. Joe Crede notwithstanding, I'll take Riske on the White Sox this year for one of those empty BP spots, and definitely over Mota.

Then Shapiro trades Rhodes to PHI. I'd also take him in our pen. That's four major BP components that need replacing. Unlike our staff, most of the Tribe's starters are not known for working deep in games.

I don't know about you guys, but I would think that a team that came a hair from pulling the biggest upset in pro sports history didn't need that big of a makeover. All they needed was another starter after Elarton left, and he was no big loss.Hey, now. That's the EXECUTIVE OF THE YEAR you're talking about.:rolleyes:

What gives with this deal? Did Mota's shoulder magically heal all of a sudden? Or did I miss something?

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 01:58 PM
Hey, now. That's the EXECUTIVE OF THE YEAR you're talking about.:rolleyes:

What gives with this deal? Did Mota's shoulder magically heal all of a sudden? Or did I miss something?

Looks like it was mostly an excuse to get a little extra "sugar" from Beantown in the form of the PTBNL. Not a bad move by Shapiro. In the end, he got the same deal plus if Mota goes down, a bit more. Plus I didn't see any of the initial trade reports mentioning the $1M cash from Boston.

But of all people, Peter Gammons said it best a month or so ago: "Kenny Williams has figured out that the game is 90% pitching".

Cleveland minus Millwood/Elarton/Howry/Rhodes plus Byrd/Johnson/Mota = worse pitching, even if they can sustain or improve their offense.

White Sox minus Duque/Vizcaino plus Vazquez = improved pitching, and the Offense has improved significantly as well.

It's really that simple.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 02:55 PM
Looks like it was mostly an excuse to get a little extra "sugar" from Beantown in the form of the PTBNL. Not a bad move by Shapiro. In the end, he got the same deal plus if Mota goes down, a bit more. Plus I didn't see any of the initial trade reports mentioning the $1M cash from Boston.There's no way a PTBNL evens the score if Mota really has shoulder problems. But of all people, Peter Gammons said it best a month or so ago: "Kenny Williams has figured out that the game is 90% pitching".I think most people figured that out 100 years ago.

IMO Millwood overachieved last year and won't be so effective again. I think Byrd is a more than ample replacement. Overall the Bosox/Phillies trades make the Indians weaker in 2006. If they're dumb enough to follow that up by trading Westbrook for Kearns, the Sox can walk to a repeat division title.

Flight #24
01-30-2006, 03:05 PM
There's no way a PTBNL evens the score if Mota really has shoulder problems. I think most people figured that out 100 years ago.

IMO Millwood overachieved last year and won't be so effective again. I think Byrd is a more than ample replacement. Overall the Bosox/Phillies trades make the Indians weaker in 2006. If they're dumb enough to follow that up by trading Westbrook for Kearns, the Sox can walk to a repeat division title.

That was my point on Mota: If he was REALLY hurt, they wouldn't have kept him in the deal. They probably saw some relatively standard wear & tear & took the opportunity to bend Boston over the barrel & extract a bit more.

As for Millwood - I wouldn't deny that Millwood overachieved, but the fact remains that Byrd'06 is likely to be worse than Millwood'05, so the Tribe regresses from their 2005 pitching levels. Same with Elarton-Johnson. It's not that Scott Elarton's actually any good, but that he was pretty solid in '05. I don't see Jason Johnson and his Comerica-deflated stats matching Elarton's '05.

As for most people figuring out that the game is 90% pitching, so-called "expert" analysis consistently ignores that concept, such as the many projections that the Indians are the class of the ALC.

lostletters
01-30-2006, 03:36 PM
Cleveland just gave up another strong bullpen guy and a very good centerfielder, for not much in return.

I knew Cleveland was not as strong as last season based on the guys they lost in Free Agency, now this. Who gave this guy GM of the year award, he is turning out to be an absolute hack.

Well I guess with every move Cleveland makes or does not make the White Sox prospects of getting to the postseason again just get a little bit better.

Ol' No. 2
01-30-2006, 03:55 PM
That was my point on Mota: If he was REALLY hurt, they wouldn't have kept him in the deal. They probably saw some relatively standard wear & tear & took the opportunity to bend Boston over the barrel & extract a bit more.

As for Millwood - I wouldn't deny that Millwood overachieved, but the fact remains that Byrd'06 is likely to be worse than Millwood'05, so the Tribe regresses from their 2005 pitching levels. Same with Elarton-Johnson. It's not that Scott Elarton's actually any good, but that he was pretty solid in '05. I don't see Jason Johnson and his Comerica-deflated stats matching Elarton's '05.

As for most people figuring out that the game is 90% pitching, so-called "expert" analysis consistently ignores that concept, such as the many projections that the Indians are the class of the ALC.Millwood put up a great ERA, but he was 9-11 and his BAA and WHIP were nothing special. I'm not sure he helped them win many games and that's the bottom line, so I wouldn't count out the possibility that Byrd will be just as good.

Also, they traded Riske and Rhodes and got only Mota back. I don't see how that can be viewed as an improvement, even if Mota is healthy. Their bullpen doesn't look that good, and if Wickman turns back into Suckman, they're going to have a hell of a time holding leads.

santo=dorf
01-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Millwood put up a great ERA, but he was 9-11 and his BAA and WHIP were nothing special. I'm not sure he helped them win many games and that's the bottom line, so I wouldn't count out the possibility that Byrd will be just as good.

Oh come on. Millwood was tied for 7th in the AL with a .248 BAA and that was better than all of our pitchers except for Contreras. He was tied for 10th in the AL with a 1.22 WHIP which was lower than Contreras' (1.23,) and Garcia's (1.25.)

IMO, Byrd has some large shoes to fill considering Millwood was 38th out of 44 in run support. Millwood was able to keep the Indians in a lot of games, and was able to pitch out jams big time. (.119 BAA with RISP with 2 outs, .194 BAA with RISP.)