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View Full Version : Robinson's daughter says let Dad's 42 stand alone


Fenway
01-24-2006, 12:16 PM
"I'm very close to the Clemente family and I have tremendous respect for Roberto Clemente's accomplishments," said Robinson, a Jackie Robinson Foundation board member and daughter of the group's founder, Rachel Robinson, Jackie's widow. "To my understanding, the purpose of retiring my father's number is that what he did changed all of baseball, not only for African-Americans but also for Latinos, so I think that purpose has been met. When you start retiring numbers across the board, for all different groups, you're kind of diluting the original purpose."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/385275p-326967c.html

Malgar 12
01-24-2006, 12:23 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/385275p-326967c.html

yup. But the pressure will be intense to cave in because of the power of identity politics.

longshot7
01-24-2006, 12:27 PM
she's right.

SOX ADDICT '73
01-24-2006, 12:30 PM
Nice mention for our guys:
Robinson also pointed to last year's world champion Chicago White Sox as a perfect model of diversity and inclusiveness.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-24-2006, 12:31 PM
I hope they don't continue this practice. Retired numbers should be for players who played on the team they played for.

It is great to honor Jackie Robinson but I would much prefer say an annual leaguewide Jackie Robinson day or week (modeled after his debut date of April 15). You can honor Roberto Clemente or other players in this manner.

Robinson would also be honored actively on a yearly basis as opposed to the one time ceremony held several years ago (I was at the sold out Mets game in Shea Stadium om Jackie Robinson Day several years ago - a great event).

Palehose13
01-24-2006, 12:37 PM
I think she is right also.

spawn
01-24-2006, 12:55 PM
She's 100% correct. His should be the only jersey retired league wide.

Stroker Ace
01-24-2006, 01:54 PM
She's 100% correct. His should be the only jersey retired league wide.Very much agreed.

DickAllen72
01-24-2006, 03:15 PM
She's 100% correct. His should be the only jersey retired league wide.

I agree. Well...maybe Babe Ruth's #3.....

Fenway
01-24-2006, 03:25 PM
I agree. Well...maybe Babe Ruth's #3.....

that is the only other number that should even be considered

None of us can ever fully understand what it must have been like for Jackie Robinson. The abuse he took has been well documented and he promised Branch Rickey he would hold his emotions in check.

Larry Doby is almost forgotten but he was alone in the American League for awhile as well so I'm sure he got the same abuse.

There are other ways MLB can honor Clemente, perhaps naming something like the MVP Award in his honor.

Trav
01-24-2006, 03:50 PM
that is the only other number that should even be considered

None of us can ever fully understand what it must have been like for Jackie Robinson. The abuse he took has been well documented and he promised Branch Rickey he would hold his emotions in check.

Larry Doby is almost forgotten but he was alone in the American League for awhile as well so I'm sure he got the same abuse.

There are other ways MLB can honor Clemente, perhaps naming something like the MVP Award in his honor.


I think Robinson's number should only be retired in the National League and Larry Doby's number should be retired in the American league. He missed being the first black in MLB by just a few weeks. His strugles were just as bad and he was a very good player as well.

WSox597
01-24-2006, 06:39 PM
There are other ways MLB can honor Clemente, perhaps naming something like the MVP Award in his honor.

Robinson's number should only be retired in the National League and Larry Doby's number should be retired in the American league

Both of these are excellent ideas. Clemente was an amazing player, I can't think of a better all around player that I've seen.

I also agree that Doby must have gone through hell at first, although I don't recall him mentioning it. Anybody else have info on this?

soxfanatlanta
01-24-2006, 06:46 PM
I agree with her. What could MLB do to honor Clemente? I think naming an award after him is great, but I'd like to see something more. Any ideas?

Black Jack
01-24-2006, 10:19 PM
There already is a Roberto Clemente Award

"The Roberto Clemente Award is given annually to a player who demonstrates the values Clemente displayed in his commitment to community and understanding the value of helping others. Each club nominates a player in September. The winner is selected from 30 nominees during the World Series."

John Smoltz won it this year.

fogie
01-26-2006, 02:28 PM
No. 3 should be retired for little league, high school, college and professional baseball period.

spawn
01-26-2006, 02:44 PM
I agree. Well...maybe Babe Ruth's #3.....

No. 3 should be retired for little league, high school, college and professional baseball period.

I have to disagree. The guy hit homeruns. I'm not taking anything away from Ruth. He was a great player, and was good for the game. Yes, he brought the game back from the Black Sox Scandal. Yes, he put more butts in the seats because of his homers. But he didn't have to put up with the abuse Jackie did. He didn't change the game of baseball the way Robinson did. And Ruth got away with a lot of crap back in his playing days because the media didn't scrutinize him the way they do players today. Robinson was a role model on and off the field. You can't say the same for Babe Ruth.

Palehose13
01-26-2006, 02:46 PM
I have to disagree. The guy hit homeruns. I'm not taking anything away from Ruth. He was a great player, and was good for the game. Yes, he brought the game back from the Black Sox Scandal. Yes, he put more butts in the seats because of his homers. But he didn't have to put up with the abuse Jackie did. He didn't change the game of baseball the way Robinson did. And Ruth got away with a lot of crap back in his playing days because the media didn't scrutinize him the way they do players today. Robinson was a role model on and off the field. You can't say the same for Babe Ruth.

I'm with you.

TheKittle
01-26-2006, 03:01 PM
I have to disagree. The guy hit homeruns. I'm not taking anything away from Ruth. He was a great player, and was good for the game. Yes, he brought the game back from the Black Sox Scandal. Yes, he put more butts in the seats because of his homers. But he didn't have to put up with the abuse Jackie did. He didn't change the game of baseball the way Robinson did. And Ruth got away with a lot of crap back in his playing days because the media didn't scrutinize him the way they do players today. Robinson was a role model on and off the field. You can't say the same for Babe Ruth.


Add to the fact that Ruth, though no fault of his own, didn't play against black players, how can you really judge his records.

Deuce
01-26-2006, 03:39 PM
Add to the fact that Ruth, though no fault of his own, didn't play against black players, how can you really judge his records.:?:

I know you didn't mean it this way, but your post sounds a tad bit Jimmy the Greek-ish. How are Ruth's accomplishments any less because he didn't play against black players? Compared to today's players, Robinson didn't play against many black players while in the majors (for obvious reasons, since he was the first). Should we today hold that against him in judging his record?

IMO, You can judge a player's record by the era he played in. You may not be able to compare Ruth's record to Robinson's record due to the changing times, but that goes both ways. Robinson changed baseball, but what would baseball be without Babe Ruth? He turned the game into a national pasttime. He deserves the credit for his great accomplishments, just as Robinson does for his.

Deuce

spawn
01-26-2006, 04:36 PM
I don't think anyone is taking anything away from Ruth. But in no way should his number be retired. The game was already a national pastime before Ruth. Jackie made it diverse.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-26-2006, 04:39 PM
IMO, You can judge a player's record by the era he played in. You may not be able to compare Ruth's record to Robinson's record due to the changing times, but that goes both ways. Robinson changed baseball, but what would baseball be without Babe Ruth? He turned the game into a national pasttime. He deserves the credit for his great accomplishments, just as Robinson does for his.

Deuce

I agree we don't need to piss on one player to prop up another - Let Barry Bonds take care of that.

Ruth was one of baseball's greatest players. Robinson as well but for different reasons. Leave it at that.

fogie
01-26-2006, 06:08 PM
Jackie Robinson, the role model, I remember reading somewhere while Jackie was bandstorming on an all-star team while in San Diego, he was the only one to refuse to play until he got his money. And I also don't remember Jackie pitching in the big leagues like the Babe did. Babe held the record for most shut out innings in a row in a World Series until Whitey Ford broke his record. I'm not taking anything away from Jackie and his number being retired. I just think Babe Ruth should have the same consideration.

TheKittle
01-26-2006, 11:01 PM
:?:

I know you didn't mean it this way, but your post sounds a tad bit Jimmy the Greek-ish. How are Ruth's accomplishments any less because he didn't play against black players?


Compared to today's players, Robinson didn't play against many black players while in the majors (for obvious reasons, since he was the first). Should we today hold that against him in judging his record?



Deuce

Hell yes Ruth's accomplishments are lessened by the fact he didn't play against any black players. How do we know that Josh Gibson wouldn't hold the record?

And Robinson did play against many blacks. From 47-56, starting with Jackie a flood of black players came into baseball.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-27-2006, 12:13 AM
Hell yes Ruth's accomplishments are lessened by the fact he didn't play against any black players. How do we know that Josh Gibson wouldn't hold the record?

And Robinson did play against many blacks. From 47-56, starting with Jackie a flood of black players came into baseball.

Once again, I don't see the appropriateness of pissing on Babe Ruth.

Robinson played his 10 years and had a fraction of the on field accomplishments of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron or other all time greats.

Like I said earlier, both players contributed to the game in different ways and each should be honored for what they accomplished.

I don't agree with retiring a number if the player didn't play on the team. The call to retire leaguewide Clemente, Ruth, Bonds or anyone else should be rejected. Robinson's number is already retired and that should be the extent of this practice.

Also, teams at most had 1-3 blacks on their team and a few had no blacks until years after Robinson retired. The Negro Leagues existed until the early 1960s though they were crippled with their star players leaving in the late 1940s - early 1950s and only had a handful of teams the last several seasons.

spawn
01-27-2006, 07:37 AM
Jackie Robinson, the role model, I remember reading somewhere while Jackie was bandstorming on an all-star team while in San Diego, he was the only one to refuse to play until he got his money.
I think you need to provide a link to back that up. As far as a role model, this is a man who, as a Lieutenant in the Army, risked court-martial because he refused to sit in the back of the bus. This was a man who for 2 years, didn't retaliate at the physical and mental abuse that was hurled at him, because to do so would threaten the integration of baseball. For you to say he wasn't a role model shows me you don't know a damn thing about the man.

Robinson played his 10 years and had a fraction of the on field accomplishments of Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron or other all time greats.
Jackie Robinson was a great player on the field. True, his stat lines to measure up to Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, or Ted Williams. But did any of them have to put up with the garbage that Jackie did? His accomplishments cannot be solely measured on what he did on the field. Babe Ruth hit home runs. Jackie made it possible for blacks, latinos, hell, even Asians to play the game. THAT'S where his legacy stands, and THAT is why his number is deservedly retired.

Fenway
01-27-2006, 08:26 AM
One thing about Ruth is how he compares with his peers especially in the 20's. Nobody came close to him.

This is one of my favorite baseball stories


Robinson spent the 1946 season with Montreal, based on Rickey's reasonable belief that the racial confrontations would be less severe in Canada. The first black in the International League (http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/I/International_League.stm) in 57 years, he led in batting and runs scored, and led the Royals to a pennant by 19-1/2 games and victory in the Little World Series. When jubilant fans chased him for three blocks after the last game, a black journalist wrote, "It was probably the only day in history that a black man ran from a white mob with love instead of lynching on its mind." Fans later erected a statue of him near the ballpark.


http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/R/Robinson_Jackie.stm

GoSoxGo
01-27-2006, 08:30 AM
My personal opinion is that a player's number should not be retired across an entire league in the first place-- no matter how great or whatever the accomplishment. Robinson, Ruth or any other great player did not play for every team in the league. The decision to retire a player's number should rest with the club they played for as it always has been. This would end all of this type of debate in the first place.

schmitty9800
01-27-2006, 10:53 AM
My personal opinion is that a player's number should not be retired across an entire league in the first place-- no matter how great or whatever the accomplishment. Robinson, Ruth or any other great player did not play for every team in the league. The decision to retire a player's number should rest with the club they played for as it always has been. This would end all of this type of debate in the first place.

The point is though that Robinson's accomplishments go far beyond the normal call of what is expected of a player. Not only did he break the barrier in baseball, but became a symbol of racial understanding during a very divisive time.

SouthSide_HitMen
01-27-2006, 11:01 AM
My personal opinion is that a player's number should not be retired across an entire league in the first place-- no matter how great or whatever the accomplishment. Robinson, Ruth or any other great player did not play for every team in the league. The decision to retire a player's number should rest with the club they played for as it always has been. This would end all of this type of debate in the first place.

Agreed. MLB should have scheduled an annual Jackie Robinson day / weekend / week in April (around his April 15 debut date) each year. This would bring out tributes every season as opposed to the one time event several years ago. You would increase interest in baseball during the cold opening month and it would be good PR.

Obviously MLB will not nor should they reverse the decision as what is done is done. But no future player, whether Babe Ruth or Roberto Clemente or anyone else should have their number retired by all teams. This honor should be reserved for individual teams to bestow on their players.

And Spawn, if you read / quote my entire post you will see I said both players deserve to be honored for their different but meaningful contributions to the game.

spawn
01-27-2006, 12:08 PM
The point is though that Robinson's accomplishments go far beyond the normal call of what is expected of a player. Not only did he break the barrier in baseball, but became a symbol of racial understanding during a very divisive time.
Thank you. At least someone gets it.

And Spawn, if you read / quote my entire post you will see I said both players deserve to be honored for their different but meaningful contributions to the game.

I read your entire post...and I understand what you mean. I just wanted to point out that stats don't tell the entire story.

dmac
01-27-2006, 12:25 PM
No. 3 should be retired for little league, high school, college and professional baseball period.

are you an earnhardt fan? :wink:

Deuce
02-04-2006, 09:52 AM
Hell yes Ruth's accomplishments are lessened by the fact he didn't play against any black players. How do we know that Josh Gibson wouldn't hold the record? I don't. I do know that Ruth did. How can you be sure that Gibson would? You are holding factors to be true that may not have played out as you see it. "What if" this and "but for" that is not the way to measure a legacy.

And Robinson did play against many blacks. From 47-56, starting with Jackie a flood of black players came into baseball.You are missing my point. Percentage-wise, he didn't play against as many as players do today. Does that lessen his legacy? No. He built his legacy on the field in the era he played in. That is what made him great.