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Garland_IS_God
01-23-2006, 12:22 PM
I know, I know, I know, another trade rumor...Phillies need a starting pitcher like a Jose Contreras. The Sox could use Bobby Abreu's bat but they don't want to take on another contract. How bout adding Jermaine Dye as part of the trade? Would you guys trade Contreras and Dye for Bobby Abreu?

crazyozzie02
01-23-2006, 12:25 PM
no, No, and NO!!!!!

Ol' No. 2
01-23-2006, 12:27 PM
I know, I know, I know, another trade rumor...Phillies need a starting pitcher like a Jose Contreras. The Sox could use Bobby Abreu's bat but they don't want to take on another contract. How bout adding Jermaine Dye as part of the trade? Would you guys trade Contreras and Dye for Bobby Abreu?In a heartbeat.

Mickster
01-23-2006, 12:30 PM
no, No, and NO!!!!!

:bong:

SoxSpeed22
01-23-2006, 12:33 PM
We already went over this!
Linky (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=64501)

Tekijawa
01-23-2006, 12:36 PM
We already went over this!
Linky (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=64501)

OK, how about Garland and Uribe for Tejada then?

SoxSpeed22
01-23-2006, 12:36 PM
OK, how about Garland and Uribe for Tejada then?The thread was merged.

munchman33
01-23-2006, 12:55 PM
In a heartbeat.

Exactly. I'd even be willing to throw in prospects.

I'm starting to believe Abreu might be the most underrated player in the game. People act like he's not a superstar. The fact is, because he has all the tools, he is probably one of the better ones. There are very few players I'd take in front of Abreu.

mdep524
01-23-2006, 01:07 PM
Well, to back this thread up with a slight pinch of legitimacy, this was in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer:

Officials from around the majors say that the pitching-rich Chicago White Sox would deal righthander Jose Contreras, who pitched brilliantly for that team in the second half of 2005. There are indications that the White Sox like Bobby Abreu but would have trouble taking on his salary as their payroll has climbed about $20 million and is closing in on $95 million.
I like Abreu, but I just don't see this working. His salary is huge, and who would he displace? Not Pods, obviously. Anderson? That would mean Pods or Abreu in center, which is very shakey. Dye? I would have a hard time dealing away Jermaine, considering his handshake agreement, affordable contract and leadership qualities.

Plus I wonder why the Phils seem so eager to deal Abreu. Is this guy not one of the top few offensive outfielders in the league? Why is he so available? Does he have some Sammy Sosa stuff going on (big ego, bad teammate, low work ethic, steroids...)? That's a red flag to me.

Still, if everything checks out it'd be sweet to see Bobby Abreu in a Sox uniform....

Flight #24
01-23-2006, 01:18 PM
Well, to back this thread up with a slight pinch of legitimacy, this was in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer:


I like Abreu, but I just don't see this working. His salary is huge, and who would he displace? Not Pods, obviously. Anderson? That would mean Pods or Abreu in center, which is very shakey. Dye? I would have a hard time dealing away Jermaine, considering his handshake agreement, affordable contract and leadership qualities.

Plus I wonder why the Phils seem so eager to deal Abreu. Is this guy not one of the top few offensive outfielders in the league? Why is he so available? Does he have some Sammy Sosa stuff going on (big ego, bad teammate, low work ethic, steroids...)? That's a red flag to me.

Still, if everything checks out it'd be sweet to see Bobby Abreu in a Sox uniform....

Contreras+Dye = $11M, IIRC. At least for 2006. Abreu = $15M. To me, that's a manageable difference in salaries, or you throw them a low level lprospect and get back $2M in cash.

mdep524
01-23-2006, 01:25 PM
Contreras+Dye = $11M, IIRC. At least for 2006. Abreu = $15M. To me, that's a manageable difference in salaries, or you throw them a low level lprospect and get back $2M in cash. Right, I see what you're saying, but how much are we really upgrading the team in that scenario? You're trading a valuable commodity in Contreras- an elite starting pitcher- and a prospect just to upgrade from Dye to Abreu? Yes, Abreu > Dye, but not by so much I would trade Contreras and a prospect to make it happen. And that's coming from an Abreu fan.

Abreu over Anderson? That's a solid upgrade. I wonder just how bad a Abreu-Pods-Dye OF would be defensively.

Sargeant79
01-23-2006, 02:10 PM
Right, I see what you're saying, but how much are we really upgrading the team in that scenario? You're trading a valuable commodity in Contreras- an elite starting pitcher- and a prospect just to upgrade from Dye to Abreu? Yes, Abreu > Dye, but not by so much I would trade Contreras and a prospect to make it happen. And that's coming from an Abreu fan.

Abreu over Anderson? That's a solid upgrade. I wonder just how bad a Abreu-Pods-Dye OF would be defensively.

Both points are good. We have to remember that we must also look at who we are upgading and who is displaced, not just who is getting traded for who. I agree with mdep524 in that Abreu is an offensive upgrade from Dye, but it's not in a needed area. I'd be more inclined to keep Dye and have Contreras for the year.

Now if the Phillies want to do Abreu for Contreras and a prospect, I'd be okay with that. The only drawback then is that we run into the aforementioned problem with Center Field defense. I know very little about Abreu's center field abilities...anyone care to enlighten me? I saw Pods play a pretty good CF in Milwaukee and he would definitely have good range, but I would have concerns about his arm.

Plus, what happens with Brian Anderson? Does he become the 4th outfielder and move to RF once Dye's contract is up? Plus we still have Owens and Sweeney in the minors.

I love Abreu, but the more I write this, the more I'm starting to think this trade would amount to a little too much tinkering. Thoughts?

longshot7
01-23-2006, 02:11 PM
Abreu over Anderson? That's a solid upgrade. I wonder just how bad a Abreu-Pods-Dye OF would be defensively.

True dat. And although I don't see it happening, I would trade Pods & Contreras for Abreu in a heartbeat. I'm not trading either CFer (Anderson or Owens) until we're sure one of them is the answer.

DaveIsHere
01-23-2006, 02:11 PM
Contreras for Rowand straight up

Ol' No. 2
01-23-2006, 02:19 PM
Right, I see what you're saying, but how much are we really upgrading the team in that scenario? You're trading a valuable commodity in Contreras- an elite starting pitcher- and a prospect just to upgrade from Dye to Abreu? Yes, Abreu > Dye, but not by so much I would trade Contreras and a prospect to make it happen. And that's coming from an Abreu fan.

Abreu over Anderson? That's a solid upgrade. I wonder just how bad a Abreu-Pods-Dye OF would be defensively.I think the difference between Abreu and Dye is plenty large enough to make this a good move. The Sox have 6 starters, so there's no net loss to the rotation by replacing Contreras with McCarthy. While there's always the possibility of an injury to a starter, I don't think you can pass up the certainty of having Abreu every day in RF over the a possibility of an injury to a starter. Sweeney is the only potential RF in the farm system that's close to ready, so it's not as if we're filling a position at which we're stacked with prospects.

caulfield12
01-23-2006, 03:07 PM
I know, I know, I know, another trade rumor...Phillies need a starting pitcher like a Jose Contreras. The Sox could use Bobby Abreu's bat but they don't want to take on another contract. How bout adding Jermaine Dye as part of the trade? Would you guys trade Contreras and Dye for Bobby Abreu?

Okay, you are going to trade the 2nd best pitcher in the AL and the WS MVP for an aging, overpaid RF whose greatest attribute is that he can hit left-handed (although I thought we already addressed this by flipping Everett for Thome).

Dye is grossly underpaid, based on his 2005 season. Abreu would equal the salaries of these two players....did not you learn last season that subtracting Valentin, Ordonez and Lee equals Pods, Vizcaino, Iguchi, Pierzynski, Hermanson, Contreras and Dye?

This would be a step in the wrong direction, and decrease the huge advantage we have over almost every other team out there in terms of starting pitching depth.

Jjav829
01-23-2006, 03:21 PM
Okay, you are going to trade the 2nd best pitcher in the AL and the WS MVP for an aging, overpaid RF whose greatest attribute is that he can hit left-handed (although I thought we already addressed this by flipping Everett for Thome).

Dye is grossly underpaid, based on his 2005 season. Abreu would equal the salaries of these two players....did not you learn last season that subtracting Valentin, Ordonez and Lee equals Pods, Vizcaino, Iguchi, Pierzynski, Hermanson, Contreras and Dye?

This would be a step in the wrong direction, and decrease the huge advantage we have over almost every other team out there in terms of starting pitching depth.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. No one said anything about Buehrle going anywhere.

:rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
01-23-2006, 03:24 PM
...whose greatest attribute is that he can hit .300+/.900+OPS/20+HR/100+RBI/100+BB left-handed...Fixed a minor omission.

mdep524
01-23-2006, 03:29 PM
I think the difference between Abreu and Dye is plenty large enough to make this a good move. The Sox have 6 starters, so there's no net loss to the rotation by replacing Contreras with McCarthy. While there's always the possibility of an injury to a starter, I don't think you can pass up the certainty of having Abreu every day in RF over the a possibility of an injury to a starter. Sweeney is the only potential RF in the farm system that's close to ready, so it's not as if we're filling a position at which we're stacked with prospects. Yeah, but Contreras is a very valuable commodity. Everyone's looking for starting pitching and the market is very thin. The Phils would be beyond overjoyed to get Contreras, Dye and a prospect for Abreu.

Plus there's something about trading Dye that doesn't sit right with me. Along with Paulie, AJ and Ozzie he's one of the top character guys on this team. Sure, you can't stand pat- proven by the Rowand trade- but you don't want to overhaul the character of the team either. It's a fine line, I wonder if trading Dye would cross it.

Ol' No. 2
01-23-2006, 03:35 PM
Yeah, but Contreras is a very valuable commodity. Everyone's looking for starting pitching and the market is very thin. The Phils would be beyond overjoyed to get Contreras, Dye and a prospect for Abreu.

Plus there's something about trading Dye that doesn't sit right with me. Along with Paulie, AJ and Ozzie he's one of the top character guys on this team. Sure, you can't stand pat- proven by the Rowand trade- but you don't want to overhaul the character of the team either. It's a fine line, I wonder if trading Dye would cross it.Contreras' value is reduced somewhat by his being in a walk year. I would include a prospect only if significant $$$ were included. The Phils have OF to spare and they are pretty motivated to unload Abreu's dollars. I'm not sure how eager they are for another pitcher, however, since they really want to get Madson into the rotation and they already acquired Ryan Franklin to fill out the rotation.

Sargeant79
01-23-2006, 03:57 PM
Contreras' value is reduced somewhat by his being in a walk year. I would include a prospect only if significant $$$ were included. The Phils have OF to spare and they are pretty motivated to unload Abreu's dollars. I'm not sure how eager they are for another pitcher, however, since they really want to get Madson into the rotation and they already acquired Ryan Franklin to fill out the rotation.

True, but as other posters have mentioned, Dye is underpaid considering his production and defense, plus Contreras is probably at a peak in terms of his value. If both go, I would say the Phillies should throw in a minor leager or two, not us. At the very least, Philly should throw in cash to offset the salaries.

Again, I'm not too high on this move unless it's Contreras and a prospect for Abreu.

Flight #24
01-23-2006, 04:03 PM
Okay, you are going to trade the 2nd best pitcher in the AL and the WS MVP for an aging, overpaid RF whose greatest attribute is that he can hit left-handed (although I thought we already addressed this by flipping Everett for Thome).

Dye is grossly underpaid, based on his 2005 season. Abreu would equal the salaries of these two players....did not you learn last season that subtracting Valentin, Ordonez and Lee equals Pods, Vizcaino, Iguchi, Pierzynski, Hermanson, Contreras and Dye?

This would be a step in the wrong direction, and decrease the huge advantage we have over almost every other team out there in terms of starting pitching depth.

This is ludicrous in so many ways:
- Abreu is a true all-around offensive force. Jermaine Dye is a good player, but there's no comparison to Abreu. Plus, Bobby isn't "aging", except in the sense that we all are. He's 31, that's considered "in his prime".
- The "real" tradeoff from a pitching perspective is, as ON2 noted, the dropoff in your "insurance" starter from McCarthy to Door #3. The upgrade offensively is significantly greater.
- The "don't pay high salaries, pay lots of guys medium salaries" argument was predicated on a much lower budget. The problem wasn't that they were paying Carlos Lee a lot of $$$, it was that they were paying him that and therefore were starting Willie Harris and Felix Diaz. They now have solid players at all positions. With that baseline, if you pay someone a high salary, that's only going to upgrade your team.

If available, this deal is a no-brainer. The only caveat I'd make is that if the addition of Abreu impats the future ability to pay Buehrle, then they need to hold off. But in that case, you might just trade Vazquez instead. The Phils get a guy for 3 years, the Sox get a stud offensive force, and still have 4 starters locked in for '07.

But no plan that moves Pods, Abreu, or Dye to CF should even be considered.

Gammons Peter
01-23-2006, 04:10 PM
They have too many outfielders...why would they want Dye

Ol' No. 2
01-23-2006, 04:22 PM
This is ludicrous in so many ways:
- Abreu is a true all-around offensive force. Jermaine Dye is a good player, but there's no comparison to Abreu. Plus, Bobby isn't "aging", except in the sense that we all are. He's 31, that's considered "in his prime".
- The "real" tradeoff from a pitching perspective is, as ON2 noted, the dropoff in your "insurance" starter from McCarthy to Door #3. The upgrade offensively is significantly greater.
- The "don't pay high salaries, pay lots of guys medium salaries" argument was predicated on a much lower budget. The problem wasn't that they were paying Carlos Lee a lot of $$$, it was that they were paying him that and therefore were starting Willie Harris and Felix Diaz. They now have solid players at all positions. With that baseline, if you pay someone a high salary, that's only going to upgrade your team.

If available, this deal is a no-brainer. The only caveat I'd make is that if the addition of Abreu impats the future ability to pay Buehrle, then they need to hold off. But in that case, you might just trade Vazquez instead. The Phils get a guy for 3 years, the Sox get a stud offensive force, and still have 4 starters locked in for '07.

But no plan that moves Pods, Abreu, or Dye to CF should even be considered.They can't trade Vazquez instead. Philadelphia was on his no-trade list.

Flight #24
01-23-2006, 04:32 PM
They can't trade Vazquez instead. Philadelphia was on his no-trade list.

Is that still valid once he's been traded? I thought the no-trade list was a function of his demanding a trade - the he got to pick 6 for a no-trade, not that he had a standard contractual no-trade.

I suppose such a deal could be barred by the CBA to prevent one from circumventing the 6-team no-trade.

Ol' No. 2
01-23-2006, 04:36 PM
Is that still valid once he's been traded? I thought the no-trade list was a function of his demanding a trade - the he got to pick 6 for a no-trade, not that he had a standard contractual no-trade.

I suppose such a deal could be barred by the CBA to prevent one from circumventing the 6-team no-trade.The CBA doesn't specifically address it, but it's a clear violation of the spirit. It's an obvious circumvention of the provision. I'm sure the MLBPA would file a grievance and I'd give them a 99% chance of winning.

munchman33
01-23-2006, 05:13 PM
They have too many outfielders...why would they want Dye

Not really, they're about to trade Michaels. If they lose Abreu too, they're gonna need another outfielder back.

dugwood31
01-23-2006, 09:18 PM
Contreras and Dye for Abreu would be a steal. Dye's career OPS+ is 105. Abreu's is 138. Abreu steals bases. Contreras' value is at its peak this offseason. This deal is a no brainer.

Tragg
01-23-2006, 09:49 PM
My reservation is that it is another "put all our eggs into the current year basket" move.

Taking on that HIGH HIGH HIGH salary really puts us in a bind to improve the team as necessary in the next few years; not to mention signing MB, which is absolutely imperative.

Okay MAYBE Philly would take salary for prospect. Well, we are going to need them too. Pods won't last forever; what if Anderson doesn't hit? We've thinned out several prospects this year already.

Obviously talent for talent makes it a good deal for us (if you add that this is Jose's walk year); which brings up another issue - they'd probably want more. So more plus more for money, makes it a no go, imv.
ON a side note, I've been surprised that the Mets haven't shown interest in Jose. They need a good starter, badly.

PKalltheway
01-23-2006, 10:36 PM
Contreras yes. Dye no.

soxinem1
01-23-2006, 11:05 PM
Yeah, but Contreras is a very valuable commodity. Everyone's looking for starting pitching and the market is very thin. The Phils would be beyond overjoyed to get Contreras, Dye and a prospect for Abreu.

Plus there's something about trading Dye that doesn't sit right with me. Along with Paulie, AJ and Ozzie he's one of the top character guys on this team. Sure, you can't stand pat- proven by the Rowand trade- but you don't want to overhaul the character of the team either. It's a fine line, I wonder if trading Dye would cross it.

I agree. We already tried the basher at every position. I think if we subtract too much its not a good idea. just like the Tejada rumors, it is not necessary.

Plus, the main question that would remain is this: Since the Sox are obviously counting on McCarthy to relieve this year, you then have a fifth starter with 12 games of ML experience, and we are short another reliever. And to add what, a few stolen bases? If Abreu or Pods were then relied upon to play CF, we get weaker defensively. Abreu reminds me of Maggs when they would play him in CF once in awhile. Okay for the day, but not a permanent option.

Did we forget the fifth starter problems we had almost every season from 1995-2004? If its me, I'm not taking that chance of hurting our depth.

If I was Philly I would do that trade in a second, but the Sox would be getting fleeced, and it would weaken them in the long run.

I say concentrate on getting the bullpen filled out, let BA have his shot, and go from there.

mdep524
01-24-2006, 01:01 AM
Contreras' value is reduced somewhat by his being in a walk year. I would include a prospect only if significant $$$ were included. The Phils have OF to spare and they are pretty motivated to unload Abreu's dollars. I'm not sure how eager they are for another pitcher, however, since they really want to get Madson into the rotation and they already acquired Ryan Franklin to fill out the rotation. I still think you undervalue Dye's intangible contribution to the Sox, but I'm not going to argue hard against Bobby frickin' Abreu! Also, Contreras' value may be low in that he is in a contract year, but the market for starting pitching is very, veeery thin. So his overall value should still be very high, considering his talent and recent results, for a team looking to compete.

caulfield12
01-24-2006, 07:26 AM
This is ludicrous in so many ways:
- Abreu is a true all-around offensive force. Jermaine Dye is a good player, but there's no comparison to Abreu. Plus, Bobby isn't "aging", except in the sense that we all are. He's 31, that's considered "in his prime".
- The "real" tradeoff from a pitching perspective is, as ON2 noted, the dropoff in your "insurance" starter from McCarthy to Door #3. The upgrade offensively is significantly greater.
- The "don't pay high salaries, pay lots of guys medium salaries" argument was predicated on a much lower budget. The problem wasn't that they were paying Carlos Lee a lot of $$$, it was that they were paying him that and therefore were starting Willie Harris and Felix Diaz. They now have solid players at all positions. With that baseline, if you pay someone a high salary, that's only going to upgrade your team.

If available, this deal is a no-brainer. The only caveat I'd make is that if the addition of Abreu impats the future ability to pay Buehrle, then they need to hold off. But in that case, you might just trade Vazquez instead. The Phils get a guy for 3 years, the Sox get a stud offensive force, and still have 4 starters locked in for '07.

But no plan that moves Pods, Abreu, or Dye to CF should even be considered.

But why would you give up the leverage you have with six pitchers when the Phillies would probably be happy to just exchange Dye´s salary for that of Abreu? It probably doesn´t matter, supposedly the Phils are not interested in either Garland or Contreras from all reports.

Who are you going to start if one of our starters goes down? Sean Tracey? Kris Honel? Tim Redding? Why would we want to return to the 2001-2004 mold and get rid of our biggest competitive advantage over the rest of the AL? I could see if Abreu was a CF and we had another RF ready to step in...but Ryan Sweeney-Borchard are not the answer for this season in RF. We don´t even know if Sweeney can hit more than 10 homers per season.

If you simply want to exchange Abreu and Dye, it´s not a big enough upgrade statistically to offset the huge salary difference. You still have the question mark known as BA in CF. The whole argument is predicated on those who claim Dye is a ticking time bomb who will get injured again...well, we also have the ticking time bomb of Thome not being the same player and what could we possibly do with him if he´s nothing but Russell Branyan or Dan Pasque instead of the REAL Jim Thome? If he is ready to return to form, there´s not the pressing need for an Abreu acquisition, except for those out there who think we need to acquire every Venezuelan Ozzie has ever known.

If we were getting Miguel Cabrera, that would be one thing. But Abreu is a heavier player and I think his productivity will start to decrease in his 30´s, the same trend you will see with Ordonez. Keep in mind he has also played much of his career on turf, so his body has taken a lot of wear and tear playing on that horrible Veterans Stadium astroturf.

And the real prime for a player historically is 27-29, everyone started thinking it was 30´s because of Bonds and McGwire but that was with artificial enhancements. Thome is a big risk for us...we take on Abreu and we might have another Ordonez or Konerko from 2-3 years ago, a player that could be going downhill making $10-15 million per season that nobody wants.

Ol' No. 2
01-24-2006, 10:12 AM
I still think you undervalue Dye's intangible contribution to the Sox, but I'm not going to argue hard against Bobby frickin' Abreu! Also, Contreras' value may be low in that he is in a contract year, but the market for starting pitching is very, veeery thin. So his overall value should still be very high, considering his talent and recent results, for a team looking to compete.Intangibles. Meh. What, exactly, ARE intangibles and why does Dye have them and Abreu not? The extra offense would be HUGE, and Abreu is a pretty good RF to boot. Consider this lineup:

Podsednik
Iguchi
Abreu
Konerko
Thome
Crede
Pierzynski
Anderson
Uribe

That's a G-O-O-D lineup.

Also remember that Contreras is actually making $9M in 2006 and Dye $5M, so the total is almost a wash with Abreu, so they don't really need to include a prospect for $$$.

Domeshot17
01-24-2006, 10:59 AM
*****

Yes we tried to win with the Basher Lineup. It failed because the pitching failed and the top of the lineup was weak.

I think spring training will show alot. No one remembers that when Lance Broadway signed, many pegged him as major league ready, or needing just a little time. He is very Buehlre esque. He does not rely on velocity, but on control and location and depth of pitches. He was invited to spring training after a very strong 2005 campaign. He would probably fill in nicely if need be. I for one feel that carrying 6 starters could backfire. Contreras Value will never be higher right now. All it takes is 5 starts next season where the fork looks flat and the control is off to make other teams shy away.

I like Dye. But if you can get Abreu for a pitcher who wont be around next season, and a hitter who is as streaky as Dye, you do it.

and for the arguements that we dont need more power it doesnt need to be like it was in 2003-2004, WE ARE REPLACING A MIDDLE OF THE ORDER HITTER WITH A BETTER MIDDLE OF THE ORDER HITTER. If you were talking about replacing Crede with Aubrey Huff, or Pods or Tadahito etc. I might agree stick with the role player. But you are taking about trading a so so 5 hitter for a perrenial clean up man. How would you feel with our pitching, bullpen, and thome Konerko Abreu 3 4 5. It would be like watching out rotation with bostons offense, just amazing.

caulfield12
01-24-2006, 12:04 PM
*****

Yes we tried to win with the Basher Lineup. It failed because the pitching failed and the top of the lineup was weak.

I think spring training will show alot. No one remembers that when Lance Broadway signed, many pegged him as major league ready, or needing just a little time. He is very Buehlre esque. He does not rely on velocity, but on control and location and depth of pitches. He was invited to spring training after a very strong 2005 campaign. He would probably fill in nicely if need be. I for one feel that carrying 6 starters could backfire. Contreras Value will never be higher right now. All it takes is 5 starts next season where the fork looks flat and the control is off to make other teams shy away.

I like Dye. But if you can get Abreu for a pitcher who wont be around next season, and a hitter who is as streaky as Dye, you do it.

and for the arguements that we dont need more power it doesnt need to be like it was in 2003-2004, WE ARE REPLACING A MIDDLE OF THE ORDER HITTER WITH A BETTER MIDDLE OF THE ORDER HITTER. If you were talking about replacing Crede with Aubrey Huff, or Pods or Tadahito etc. I might agree stick with the role player. But you are taking about trading a so so 5 hitter for a perrenial clean up man. How would you feel with our pitching, bullpen, and thome Konerko Abreu 3 4 5. It would be like watching out rotation with bostons offense, just amazing.

All you have to do is go back to 2003 for a quick look at what a lack of pitching depth could do to a team---with a trade, we are one ¨tired¨ arm from being at a disadvantage. You also have to recognize that McCarthy and Contreras were our two best starters the 2nd half, especially the final six weeks. Do you really expect Garland or Buehrle to pitch any better, or McCarthy for that matter? The only ones who can improve are probably Garcia and Vazquez.

As far as Broadway, he does not have the dominant fastball that most of the college pitchers like Clemens and Prior brought with them from college to the pros. He is not going to blow anyone way. The closest we have come recent to the type of success you are speaking of is Kip Wells...but our recent track record with pitching development would certainly not predict much of anything out of Broadway right away. Everyone thought Cotts would be okay, and he definitely was not ready to be a starter...he had very impressive minor league credentials.

All of the pitchers that signed for $6-10 million (Loaiza, Morris, Byrd, Rogers, Washburn, etc.) were nowhere near the type of pitchers Contreras was last season. The White Sox are not going to dump him on the market after 5 bad starts anyway....they already know what he is capable of doing, and results of just a few minor adjustments.

If Dye was so-so, then I guess he should have done more than all lead all AL RFers making a lot more than him in homers, as well as adding on a WS MVP. For that matter, they should also be one of the 2-3 most well-respected players on the team.

Abreu is a better hitter, but we are a much better team with Contreras shutting down opponents and sucking the life out of them. Buehrle and Garland are not intimidating stoppers in the Contreras mold. He absolutely saved the team with his pitching and stopping losing streaks right and left. If Garland and Vazquez are average or disappointing, you shift a lot of pressure on a Buehrle who pitched too many innings and was hurting at season´s end and on a very young Brandon McCarthy.

downstairs
01-24-2006, 12:10 PM
Contreras for Rowand straight up

How about Thome for Rowand?

longshot7
01-24-2006, 12:37 PM
I still think you undervalue Dye's intangible contribution to the Sox, but I'm not going to argue hard against Bobby frickin' Abreu! Also, Contreras' value may be low in that he is in a contract year, but the market for starting pitching is very, veeery thin. So his overall value should still be very high, considering his talent and recent results, for a team looking to compete.

I think most people OVERvalue Pods' contribution to the Sox - why not trade him & Contreras instead of Dye?

Ol' No. 2
01-24-2006, 01:10 PM
I think most people OVERvalue Pods' contribution to the Sox - why not trade him & Contreras instead of Dye?Now you ARE going back to the failed approach. In 2004 the Sox were near the top of MLB in BA with RISP and near the bottom in AB with RISP. Trade Podsednik and who leads off? He had the second-highest OBP on the team in 2005. Hope you like solo HR.

TheVulture
01-24-2006, 02:45 PM
We already tried the basher at every position.

Abreu's not really a "basher" though, he's a .420 OBP guy with a lot of speed. The sox' only weakness last year was a lack of on-base guys. Granted, Thome addresses that issue as well, but it'd be nice to have a guy on base more than 40% of the time that can really run in front of Thome and Konerko. Also the Sox would still have Pods, Uribe, Crede, Pierzynski and Iguchi in the lineup and I wouldn't characterize those guys as bashers. I don't know about giving up Contreras, but having Abreu in the lineup would definitely be a vast improvement - the sox would be at or close to the top of the league in every aspect - pitching, fielding, hitting and baserunning. I guess I would give up Contreras, even though I'm betting on a huge year from him.

BTW, looking at Abreu on baseball reference, I noticed he was drafted from Houston by Tampa in the expansion draft and traded the same day for Kevin Stocker. Man, what a horrible move by the Rays.

Domeshot17
01-24-2006, 07:57 PM
As far as Broadway, he does not have the dominant fastball that most of the college pitchers like Clemens and Prior brought with them from college to the pros. He is not going to blow anyone way. The closest we have come recent to the type of success you are speaking of is Kip Wells...but our recent track record with pitching development would certainly not predict much of anything out of Broadway right away. Everyone thought Cotts would be okay, and he definitely was not ready to be a starter...he had very impressive minor league credentials.

All of the pitchers that signed for $6-10 million (Loaiza, Morris, Byrd, Rogers, Washburn, etc.) were nowhere near the type of pitchers Contreras was last season. The White Sox are not going to dump him on the market after 5 bad starts anyway....they already know what he is capable of doing, and results of just a few minor adjustments.

If Dye was so-so, then I guess he should have done more than all lead all AL RFers making a lot more than him in homers, as well as adding on a WS MVP. For that matter, they should also be one of the 2-3 most well-respected players on the team.

Broadway when he was drafted was compared to Buehlre in he works fast, keeps hitters off balance and does not have dominating stuff, but has very good ability. If you look, Buehlre is not a high Strike out Guy either, he gets a ton of ground balls. I really like Broadway, and I think he he could fill in fine for a tired arm. We also have Redding and others. I know everyone is so scared of having someone go down, but I also think you need to get something before you have nothing. Holding on to Contreras until the deadline is dumb because if we plan to deal him then, we are dealing him to competition. You have a chance to essentially trade Loaiza and Dye for Abreu.

Dye did lead AL RF in home runs, but he also led baseball in solo home runs. He was sparatic throughout the season. I really like JD, but comparing him to Abreu is the same as comparing Uribe to Tejada. I think Abreu would bring a lot to the team. He seems like an OZzie Freddy guy. I understand the fear of ending up without enough pitching, but holding on to 6 good pitchers is also a set back because you could possibly hinder McCarthys development. McCarhy differes from Cotts in the sense that if he ended up nothing more than a good reliever, we would all be disappointed. The kid earned a shot, we need to give it to him.

The difference between the lineup of 2003-04 and 2005 was it wasnt deep. It guys like Valentin, who I liked, but who were very irratic. It did not have stability at the top of the lineup, and it did not click well together. But Konerko Abreu Thome would be the deepest 3 4 5 in baseball.

caulfield12
01-25-2006, 07:23 AM
Broadway when he was drafted was compared to Buehlre in he works fast, keeps hitters off balance and does not have dominating stuff, but has very good ability. If you look, Buehlre is not a high Strike out Guy either, he gets a ton of ground balls. I really like Broadway, and I think he he could fill in fine for a tired arm. We also have Redding and others. I know everyone is so scared of having someone go down, but I also think you need to get something before you have nothing. Holding on to Contreras until the deadline is dumb because if we plan to deal him then, we are dealing him to competition. You have a chance to essentially trade Loaiza and Dye for Abreu.

Dye did lead AL RF in home runs, but he also led baseball in solo home runs. He was sparatic throughout the season. I really like JD, but comparing him to Abreu is the same as comparing Uribe to Tejada. I think Abreu would bring a lot to the team. He seems like an OZzie Freddy guy. I understand the fear of ending up without enough pitching, but holding on to 6 good pitchers is also a set back because you could possibly hinder McCarthys development. McCarhy differes from Cotts in the sense that if he ended up nothing more than a good reliever, we would all be disappointed. The kid earned a shot, we need to give it to him.

The difference between the lineup of 2003-04 and 2005 was it wasnt deep. It guys like Valentin, who I liked, but who were very irratic. It did not have stability at the top of the lineup, and it did not click well together. But Konerko Abreu Thome would be the deepest 3 4 5 in baseball.

I guess the nightmare scenario here is that the wheels fall off like in 2001 and we are stuck with what could become ¨bad¨ contracts for Konerko, Thome, Vazquez, etc. That´s my main concern, obviously one that is pretty unlikely. That $95 million payroll scares me...in the sense that the Sox have always been one average or mediocre season from losing 40% of their ticket-holders and having to retrench and rebuild again with younger players. This year is going to be huge in terms of showing we can build upon success instead of going backwards, as happened in 1984, 1994-strike and then 2001. We have the 3rd highest payroll in the AL, and that will only last while we are winning.

From everything I have read, the Phillies are not interested in Contreras or Garland. Obviously, Jon is probably not going anywhere at this point.

Right now, I agree with many who are concerned about hindering McCarthy´s growth by sticking him in the bullpen. He doesn´t have the limitation of throwing only a couple of pitches that Cotts has...he has a more complete repertoire, and demonstrated unquestioned dominance over Boston, Minnesota and Texas, among others, down the stretch.

As long as we don´t give up McCarthy, Buehrle or Cotts, I am fine with dealing Contreras, but I still want to hold off until mid-season. There´s no reason we couldn´t trade him to an NL team, to prevent him from haunting the Sox in the post-season, well, at least until the WS, lol.

Tragg
01-25-2006, 07:46 AM
Also remember that Contreras is actually making $9M in 2006 and Dye $5M, so the total is almost a wash with Abreu, so they don't really need to include a prospect for $$$.

I believe Abreu makes over $30 million aggregate in the last 2 years of his deal - that's the money Philly is trying to dump, and the money that I certainly wouldn't want hamstringing us in the future.

caulfield12
01-25-2006, 08:47 AM
I believe Abreu makes over $30 million aggregate in the last 2 years of his deal - that's the money Philly is trying to dump, and the money that I certainly wouldn't want hamstringing us in the future.

Yeah, realistically, the White Sox were looking at Contreras´$8 million, which is the amount they are actually paying him after the Yankees´ subsidy, to come off the books in 2007.

The Sox still have the option for Dye in 2007 if they do not feel Ryan Sweeney is ready or will hit for enough power.

But that is a staggering amount of money to be on the hook for with Thome, Konerko, Abreu, etc., well into the future.

That ¨newfound¨ money will have to be used on raises for dealing with the Crede situation and the built-in raises for all the long-term contracts the pitchers have. The only pitcher whose salary will go down next year is Vazquez, because we are receiving $3 million next year, which will put him at $8.5 million. This year, he will be at $9.5 million because we are only receiving $1 million for this season.

Ol' No. 2
01-25-2006, 09:06 AM
I believe Abreu makes over $30 million aggregate in the last 2 years of his deal - that's the money Philly is trying to dump, and the money that I certainly wouldn't want hamstringing us in the future.2006 - $13M
2007 - $15M
2008 - team option for $16M with $2M buyout

So the total is $30M. But this year Contreras is receiving $9M and Dye $5M, so this trade would result in a net DECREASE for 2006. I don't see how it hamstrings them in the future. Abreu is signed for only one more year after 2006, so they're not locked in long-term. Unless the bottom falls out and attendance drops to nothing they'll have plenty of revenues to maintain their payroll at this level.

While we've had fun speculating, there's no way this deal is going to happen. The Phils have a full rotation and they're not looking to add another starter.

SoxFanTillDeath
01-25-2006, 09:17 AM
Broadway when he was drafted was compared to Buehlre in he works fast, keeps hitters off balance and does not have dominating stuff, but has very good ability. If you look, Buehlre is not a high Strike out Guy either, he gets a ton of ground balls. I really like Broadway, and I think he he could fill in fine for a tired arm. We also have Redding and others. I know everyone is so scared of having someone go down, but I also think you need to get something before you have nothing. Holding on to Contreras until the deadline is dumb because if we plan to deal him then, we are dealing him to competition. You have a chance to essentially trade Loaiza and Dye for Abreu...

I do like the trade because Abreu is a special, special player, but we don't need an OF'er (I like Anderson), and I would personally rather hold off on trading a SP until June or July. At that point we can look at the health of our rotation and decide if we can afford to trade away a starter. I think the point where a pitcher is the most valuable is midseason when a team is desperate enough to give up an extra prospect for that pitcher than can put them over the edge. We can afford to stick with what we have right now and evaluate the situation around the All-Star break.

Domeshot17
01-25-2006, 04:08 PM
I do like the trade because Abreu is a special, special player, but we don't need an OF'er (I like Anderson), and I would personally rather hold off on trading a SP until June or July. At that point we can look at the health of our rotation and decide if we can afford to trade away a starter. I think the point where a pitcher is the most valuable is midseason when a team is desperate enough to give up an extra prospect for that pitcher than can put them over the edge. We can afford to stick with what we have right now and evaluate the situation around the All-Star break.

I hate this theory. In july at the deadline you know usually the contenders and not. assumming we are one of them, you almost certainly dont deal contreras to an AL team who could knock us out, you never make your competition stronger, so that limits us to NL TEAMS. Right now, Philly thinks they are good and would do this deal. However, when they are 13 back of nym and 14 back of atl at the deadline, they dont have interest in contreras.

This is basic buy low sell high fellas. we bought low (loaiza for conteras) and we can sell high ( dye and conteras for Abreu)

jamokes
01-25-2006, 04:23 PM
I would take Abreu in a heartbeat, our Sox are in a great position to deal!! Once these teams realize that they need pitching, I see a deal coming down.

Flight #24
01-25-2006, 04:29 PM
Not sure if it's worth it, but an alternative idea occurred to me after reading a bunch of rumors that Cincinnati was considering trading Austin Kearns for Matt Clement (Kearns to Cleveland, Crisp+ to Boston, Clement to Cinci, Marte to Cleveland).

Would KW and/or Cinci consider a Contreras+Borchard for Kearns+reliever/prospect swap? Reds get a proven pitcher who's a pending FA for a young, highly talented, injury-prone OF. Sox get a guy who can play RF or CF and who has significant upside as a hitter if he can stay healthy (hello Herm Schneider). Kearns replaces Dye in '07.

Austin was rated pretty evenly with Adam Dunn when in the minors, and in 2002 had a pretty great rookie season (batted .300+ with a .400+OBP in 107 games). Since then he's been hurt a lot, and had a down 2005. But if he's healthy, no reason why he can't replicate or come close to his rookie year. He'd be a potential offensive cornerstone and come a lot cheaper in salary than Abreu. For Cincinnati, instead of Clement at 2-yrs/$20M, they get Contreras at 1/$6M and resignable at 3-$36. They get a guy with a better track record under pressure signed at a similar rate instead of a guy who's known for experiencing "shrinkage" as the season moves on.

Thoughts?

Ol' No. 2
01-25-2006, 04:30 PM
I hate this theory. In july at the deadline you know usually the contenders and not. assumming we are one of them, you almost certainly dont deal contreras to an AL team who could knock us out, you never make your competition stronger, so that limits us to NL TEAMS. Right now, Philly thinks they are good and would do this deal. However, when they are 13 back of nym and 14 back of atl at the deadline, they dont have interest in contreras.

This is basic buy low sell high fellas. we bought low (loaiza for conteras) and we can sell high ( dye and conteras for Abreu)The Phils have Lieber, Myers, Lidle, Franklin and Madson. I don't think they're hot for another starter, and certainly not one that costs $9M.

Flight #24
01-25-2006, 04:46 PM
The Phils have Lieber, Myers, Lidle, Franklin and Madson. I don't think they're hot for another starter, and certainly not one that costs $9M.

Jose would only cost them $6M since the Yanks payment would (should) still flow through to them. And all reports were that they were interested in a #1 caliber SP. But that could be wrong.

Ol' No. 2
01-25-2006, 04:57 PM
Jose would only cost them $6M since the Yanks payment would (should) still flow through to them. And all reports were that they were interested in a #1 caliber SP. But that could be wrong.That assumes the Sox sent the money along, which doesn't necessarily have to happen. If Kenny did that he'd be taking on more salary, which he probably doesn't want to do. Without including the money, Contreras + Dye = Abreu is almost payroll neutral.

The Phils may have been looking for another starter earlier, but they signed Franklin on Jan 5. They've been wanting to get Madson into the rotation and they'd have to bump him if they got another starter. Not to say it couldn't happen, but I don't think it's a big priority for them. This one would really be under the radar since there's absolutely no rumors of any kind on this.

mdep524
01-25-2006, 07:54 PM
The Phils have Lieber, Myers, Lidle, Franklin and Madson. I don't think they're hot for another starter, and certainly not one that costs $9M. Semi-unrelated question, but whatever happened to Randy Wolf? The guy had a couple good seasons, then fell off a bit, the I think had some injury problems. Is he still a Phillie? Is he in their plans? Is he injured?

Ol' No. 2
01-25-2006, 09:56 PM
Semi-unrelated question, but whatever happened to Randy Wolf? The guy had a couple good seasons, then fell off a bit, the I think had some injury problems. Is he still a Phillie? Is he in their plans? Is he injured?Still listed on their 40-man roster.

Tragg
01-25-2006, 10:40 PM
I hate this theory. In july at the deadline you know usually the contenders and not. assumming we are one of them, you almost certainly dont deal contreras to an AL team who could knock us out, you never make your competition stronger, so that limits us to NL TEAMS. That's true today January 25 as well. We certainly aren't going to deal him to a contender right now. We will deal him to a NL team or to a non-contender be it now or in July. The only difference is perhaps an unknown AL team could contend this year, but that's extremely remote in the American League.

Tragg
01-25-2006, 10:42 PM
I think most people OVERvalue Pods' contribution to the Sox - why not trade him & Contreras instead of Dye?
Because Pods is our lead-off hitter; and we have nothing else close to a lead off hitter on this team. The stat-heads underrate him because he lacks power and run production; true, but he doesn't bat with that many people on base anyway. The key is does he get on base. And the answer is he does 35% of the time which is the best we have except for Konerko.

I would love to upgrade the position next year. But there aren't many leadoff hitters out there and their price is high.

Flight #24
01-25-2006, 10:55 PM
Because Pods is our lead-off hitter; and we have nothing else close to a lead off hitter on this team. The stat-heads underrate him because he lacks power and run production; true, but he doesn't bat with that many people on base anyway. The key is does he get on base. And the answer is he does 35% of the time which is the best we have except for Konerko.

I would love to upgrade the position next year. But there aren't many leadoff hitters out there and their price is high.

The real key is that once on base, he does a lot more than stathead algorithms account for.

chaerulez
01-25-2006, 11:04 PM
I think some people should stop looking at Contreras as this great ace. He's had one great half year. Do I think he can keep pitching at a high level? I do. But I really only expect around a 16-10 3.50 ERA season from him. Solid, but nothing amazing.

mdep524
01-25-2006, 11:20 PM
Still listed on their 40-man roster. Yeah, that's what I noticed. Yet he's never mentioned as part of their rotation...

In any case, I think the Phillies would still be in the market for a front of the rotation starter. Pat Gillick has apparently "made it clear" he is still looking, according to this story (http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/13680332.htm).

That's the same story that mentions Jose Contreras and Bobby Abreu. Since the Michaels deal has fallen through (for the moment), this could rear it's head again.

buehrle4cy05
01-25-2006, 11:22 PM
Never trade good pitching for good hitting. Ever.

caulfield12
01-26-2006, 08:37 AM
Not sure if it's worth it, but an alternative idea occurred to me after reading a bunch of rumors that Cincinnati was considering trading Austin Kearns for Matt Clement (Kearns to Cleveland, Crisp+ to Boston, Clement to Cinci, Marte to Cleveland).

Would KW and/or Cinci consider a Contreras+Borchard for Kearns+reliever/prospect swap? Reds get a proven pitcher who's a pending FA for a young, highly talented, injury-prone OF. Sox get a guy who can play RF or CF and who has significant upside as a hitter if he can stay healthy (hello Herm Schneider). Kearns replaces Dye in '07.

Austin was rated pretty evenly with Adam Dunn when in the minors, and in 2002 had a pretty great rookie season (batted .300+ with a .400+OBP in 107 games). Since then he's been hurt a lot, and had a down 2005. But if he's healthy, no reason why he can't replicate or come close to his rookie year. He'd be a potential offensive cornerstone and come a lot cheaper in salary than Abreu. For Cincinnati, instead of Clement at 2-yrs/$20M, they get Contreras at 1/$6M and resignable at 3-$36. They get a guy with a better track record under pressure signed at a similar rate instead of a guy who's known for experiencing "shrinkage" as the season moves on.

Thoughts?

Kearns was always in that class that was hyped with Dunn and Borchard.

The Indians would be taking a big gamble to trade the potential of Kearns for the reality of Crisp. Crisp really makes the start of their order go, he´s a pesky type of player that does more damage than the stats can ever show effectively, like Pods.

We have an option on Dye for 2007 if we want it. But I just don´t see the benefit of sitting Kearns on the bench for most of the season, or in AAA. And I don´t want to see him replacing BA in CF. That is not a good idea either. It would be a significant defensive downgrade compared to AR or BA.

And Anderson has the most upside as a 20 plus homer hitting CFer, as opposed to an average RFer in terms of his power numbers. This move also clouds the future of Ryan Sweeney, who looks to have a breakout year offensively in 2006.

Contreras is going to be paid $8 million this season, with an additional $1 million coming from the Yankees. That idea of $3 million was roster bonus related, and was not a subsidy for us like the Thome deal. Whether it is $1 million or $3 million, KW is not going to give it away with a starter of Contreras´ability, and the Reds would be pretty dumb to trade for a guy for one season when their team is a long ways from competing...and they certainly have no interest in paying $36 million over 3 years.

Ol' No. 2
01-26-2006, 09:20 AM
The real key is that once on base, he does a lot more than stathead algorithms account for.But he doesn't hit many home runs.

soxinem1
01-26-2006, 03:03 PM
Abreu's not really a "basher" though, he's a .420 OBP guy with a lot of speed. The sox' only weakness last year was a lack of on-base guys. Granted, Thome addresses that issue as well, but it'd be nice to have a guy on base more than 40% of the time that can really run in front of Thome and Konerko. Also the Sox would still have Pods, Uribe, Crede, Pierzynski and Iguchi in the lineup and I wouldn't characterize those guys as bashers. I don't know about giving up Contreras, but having Abreu in the lineup would definitely be a vast improvement - the sox would be at or close to the top of the league in every aspect - pitching, fielding, hitting and baserunning. I guess I would give up Contreras, even though I'm betting on a huge year from him.

BTW, looking at Abreu on baseball reference, I noticed he was drafted from Houston by Tampa in the expansion draft and traded the same day for Kevin Stocker. Man, what a horrible move by the Rays.

It wasn't to good of a move by Houston either. I remember this transaction like yesterday. But they were pretty loaded with OF at the time, they had a producing Derek Bell, Carl Everett, and Moises Alou with Richard Hidalgo waiting in the wings.

I see your point but a couple things worry me about BA. He's a great player and talent, but he K's a ton. So does Thome, Iguchi, and Konerko the last few years. Pods, Uribe, and Anderson all will K over 100 times if they get 550 AB's or so. And so will Dye if he stays. That's a lot of K's. Thome and Abeu alone would combine for well over 300 if they played everyday.

Second, his offensive shut down the second half of last year with the Phils in a Pennant Race raises a flag of caution with me.

caulfield12
01-26-2006, 03:22 PM
It wasn't to good of a move by Houston either. I remember this transaction like yesterday. But they were pretty loaded with OF at the time, they had a producing Derek Bell, Carl Everett, and Moises Alou with Richard Hidalgo waiting in the wings.

I see your point but a couple things worry me about BA. He's a great player and talent, but he K's a ton. So does Thome, Iguchi, and Konerko the last few years. Pods, Uribe, and Anderson all will K over 100 times if they get 550 AB's or so. And so will Dye if he stays. That's a lot of K's. Thome and Abeu alone would combine for well over 300 if they played everyday.

Second, his offensive shut down the second half of last year with the Phils in a Pennant Race raises a flag of caution with me.

Well, Aaron Rowand wasnt much of a bargain in the K category for his power production. I would expect Uribe to be more disciplined in the 2 hole, temporarily at least.

We will see how Iguchi does after one year to observe the league and make adjustments....just as the pitchers will change their strategies to exploit his offensive holes.

I would rather have Anderson and Pods than Pods and Owens at this point...AJ makes pretty good contact. Crede will strike out a ton, too, but we still have the type of players who can execute when they need to...remember Everett bunting in the playoffs?

The biggest concern with Thome last year was the elbow...his back seems to be fine now.

ondafarm
01-26-2006, 03:36 PM
Because Pods is our lead-off hitter; and we have nothing else close to a lead off hitter on this team. The stat-heads underrate him because he lacks power and run production . . .


Hey, watch who you go around bashing like that.

Although some statheads don't like Pods because for the past decade stealing bases has been greatly underrated. It has to do with Tampa running a lot and still having a lousy record.

I really don't know many statheads who think Pods hurts the Sox. There is that idiot sportswriter but he's no stathead.

Most guys I know look at how much better W-L the Sox do when Pods scores, and what percentage of our runs he scores. On both of those Pods does exceptionly well as a lead-off hitter.

Most of the Pods bashers I know of are Flat Earthers, who complain that he hit no homers during the regular season.

Tragg
01-27-2006, 08:50 AM
Hey, watch who you go around bashing like that.

Although some statheads don't like Pods because for the past decade stealing bases has been greatly underrated. It has to do with Tampa running a lot and still having a lousy record.

I've read enough BP articles to know that they think he's virtually worthless, or in their parlance "replacable".

I will admit - I don't think he's anything special; he's just the best we have in a position that's been weak since Tim Raines left. And he's in a position in which there are not that many players out there on the market - by position I mean lead-off hitter.