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View Full Version : Jayson Stark the Sox fan


WhiteSoxFan84
01-20-2006, 02:13 PM
Ok, he's not exactly a Sox fan, but he had some kind words to say about our team...


How important is it to collect inning-eaters? Just ask the team that won the last World Series.


The White Sox were the only team in baseball to have four starters top 200 innings. And that had a lot to do with all of that confetti and champagne that entered their lives in October.

So we decided to look into this. Over the last five seasons, 17 teams have had at least three starters who pitched 200 innings. Twelve of those teams made the playoffs. None had a losing record. And they averaged 92 wins apiece.



That was the intro to his "Extra-Inning Rumblings" which are only for ESPN Insiders. He did however mention the White Sox in his regular Rumblings and Grumblings (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2298841) article. It mainly had to do with the Phillies looking for an ace...



Using Bobby Abreu (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5698) as his prime currency, Gillick has spent the winter chasing an ace collection that included Barry Zito (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6394), Jason Schmidt (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5340), Carlos Zambrano (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6559), Mark Prior (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6787), Javier Vazquez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5947), Brad Penny (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6276), Derek Lowe (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5801), Erik Bedard (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6910) and, more recently, any and every starter on the White Sox roster.

Well, it's a hell of a shopping list, anyway. But not one pitcher in that crowd went anywhere this winter -- except for Vazquez, who put the Phillies on his no-trade list.

The latest buzz is that Gillick has been talking to the White Sox about swapping Abreu for one of their "excess" starters. But the White Sox don't want to take on money. They're not interested in moving Mark Buehrle (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6525) or Freddy Garcia (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6168). And Jon Garland (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6396) and Jose Contreras (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7043) don't quite fit the mold of pitcher the Phillies want back for Abreu.

eriqjaffe
01-20-2006, 02:17 PM
Didn't the Vazquez trade nullify his ability to veto future trades? Or am am I imagining that?

1951Campbell
01-20-2006, 02:19 PM
I'm sorry, our starters do not "eat innings." They pitch. There's a difference. Those guys were not mere placeholders last year.

Tekijawa
01-20-2006, 02:22 PM
Those guys were not mere placeholders last year.

Yeah they were, they were FIRST PLACEHOLDERS all year!

infohawk
01-20-2006, 02:25 PM
Phil Rogers made a similar observation leading into the 2003 or 2004 season about the White Sox starting rotation. He argued that the White Sox stood an excellent chance of making the playoffs because they had starters who had logged in lots of innings the previous season -- something previous playoff and/or World Series teams also had. I remember that Baseball Prospectus ripped Phil's argument in an article entitled, "Cleaning Out The Bull Chute."

soxfanatlanta
01-20-2006, 02:26 PM
Didn't the Vazquez trade nullify his ability to veto future trades? Or am am I imagining that?

I believe he has a limited no-trade clause in his contract, don't the Sox have to honor that?

The Wall
01-20-2006, 02:28 PM
I remember that Baseball Prospectus ripped Phil's argument in an article entitled, "Cleaning Out The Bull Shoot."

BP obviously knows more abt baseball than some cubune reporter.

Ol' No. 2
01-20-2006, 02:41 PM
Didn't the Vazquez trade nullify his ability to veto future trades? Or am am I imagining that?In demanding a trade, Vazquez got to exclude six teams. Philadelphia was one of those six. I assume the teams couldn't get around this exclusion by trading him to one team first and then to one of the teams on his list.

skobabe8
01-20-2006, 02:49 PM
Phil Rogers made a similar observation leading into the 2003 or 2004 season about the White Sox starting rotation. He argued that the White Sox stood an excellent chance of making the playoffs because they had starters who had logged in lots of innings the previous season -- something previous playoff and/or World Series teams also had. I remember that Baseball Prospectus ripped Phil's argument in an article entitled, "Cleaning Out The Bull Shoot."

Unfortunately for BP, you have one heck of a memory! :D:

longshot7
01-20-2006, 04:02 PM
The Sox don't want to trade Freddy Garcia for Bobby Abreu? Wow..........

scottjanssens
01-20-2006, 04:21 PM
I remember that Baseball Prospectus ripped Phil's argument in an article entitled, "Cleaning Out The Bull Shoot."

Do you have a date for that article? A search on BP shows no article by that title and reveals very little for Phil Rogers:

"Just when Cubs manager Dusty Baker started to take some flack in the national media (well, sort of; Phil Rogers' Chicago Tribune column also ran on ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2013873)) for his handling of Prior and Wood, he was able to escape most of that scrutiny"

--Fantasy Focus: NL Busts by Jeff Ericson 3/25/05


"Noted sportswriter Phil Rogers wrote last July that: 'Commissioner Bud Selig has gone on a crusade to save his sport from itself.' We who love baseball can only hope he succeeds. Major League Baseball needs more Bud Seligs and fewer Andrew Zimbalists."

--Selig Yes, Zimbalist No by Doug Pappas 4/1/03

Iwritecode
01-20-2006, 04:22 PM
Phil Rogers made a similar observation leading into the 2003 or 2004 season about the White Sox starting rotation. He argued that the White Sox stood an excellent chance of making the playoffs because they had starters who had logged in lots of innings the previous season -- something previous playoff and/or World Series teams also had. I remember that Baseball Prospectus ripped Phil's argument in an article entitled, "Cleaning Out The Bull Shoot."

They actually rip him for using it as a predictive tool. I can see their point. Just because a team had a lot of starters pitch that many innings last year it doesn't mean that the same will happen the following year.

Check it out here. (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20030124scherer.shtml)

Iwritecode
01-20-2006, 04:23 PM
Do you have a date for that article? A search on BP shows no article by that title and reveals very little for Phil Rogers:

The title is "That's the Chicago Way"

infohawk
01-20-2006, 04:30 PM
The title is "That's the Chicago Way"

That's right. I think "Cleaning Out The Bull Chute" (which I mistakenly typed as "Shoot" but have since corrected) was a BP homepage teaser to the story.

scottjanssens
01-20-2006, 04:34 PM
The title is "That's the Chicago Way"

Are you pulling my leg or do you have a link?

UPDATE: thanks for the link. They really need to fix their search utility.

Malgar 12
01-20-2006, 04:44 PM
The Sox don't want to trade Freddy Garcia for Bobby Abreu? Wow..........

Why would you want to? Abreu is more expensive, only has one year on his contract, Is older, and plays a position where the Sox are better served giving Anderson a shot. Furthermore the Sox won with pitching.

scottjanssens
01-20-2006, 04:45 PM
They actually rip him for using it as a predictive tool. I can see their point. Just because a team had a lot of starters pitch that many innings last year it doesn't mean that the same will happen the following year.

I think this is what got BP's dander up: "He [Rogers] saw it coming, but he didn't have the stones to call it. Instead, he pegged them for third in the West and he has been kicking himself for the last six months because of it."

I think the article scores some points but if the author really wanted to disprove the thesis he should have shown contrary numbers. Fact is, the only way to have three or more starters pitch 190+ innings is to have a winning team. So it's not much of a predictor.

SoxFan64
01-21-2006, 12:11 AM
I think the article scores some points but if the author really wanted to disprove the thesis he should have shown contrary numbers. Fact is, the only way to have three or more starters pitch 190+ innings is to have a winning team. So it's not much of a predictor.

That's the ticket. I remember that someone on Monday Night Football back in the 70-80's mentioned that the Cowboys won 90+% of the time Dorsett ran for 100+ yards when in fact when you are behind you are more likely to pass than run. That was one useless stat.

Same goes here. To pitch 190+ innings you have to be on a team that either ahead or is still in the game.

Foulke You
01-21-2006, 06:37 PM
Why would you want to? Abreu is more expensive, only has one year on his contract, Is older, and plays a position where the Sox are better served giving Anderson a shot. Furthermore the Sox won with pitching.
Agreed. Why trade one of your best starters in Freddy? It's pitchers like Freddy that won the championship last year. I'm not wowed by tape measure shots in the HR derby as Abreu did last year as much as I am by solid and consistent starting pitching. I'll keep the ace quality starter and take a pass on Abreu.